Correct which is why I gave the age of the sun per trek canon, which is 5bn, per voyager. 500 million years is almost ten times longer than the voth have existed. It is over a hundred times longer than the time since the organians evolved past physical bodies.
There is no reason to assume the preservers are a hundred times more stagnant than the voth. They don't need such a vast amount of time to have developed. No other race has needed so long. While it is possible, it is not plausible.
Even if we use the shorter 67 million years of best current estimate, that's 2million more years than the voth have had since leaving earth.
Actually, being that the preservers state they were ALONE in the galaxy, they may not have had any drive or reason to devlope beyond a certain point. And even the latter stages of their development could have been slow (as in millions of years between breakthroughs) because their was no pressing need to change. And then there is the fact that they are alien, so thier sensabilities and thirst for knowledge would not necessarily be the same as ours.
In Cannon there is no definate statement of when the Gateway was built or as to when the Preservers achieved sentience. But by the single statement that the preservers were alone in the galaxy, the Gateway has to have been created either by them or one of their first seeded races. Which places the Gateway as being younger than the Preservers.
It is important to keep in mind that in Star Trek canon the Preservers and the Ancient Humanoids from The Chase are two different species. Cryptic merged them in the game, but that is not the case in canon.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
It is important to keep in mind that in Star Trek canon the Preservers and the Ancient Humanoids from The Chase are two different species. Cryptic merged them in the game, but that is not the case in canon.
Sort of. The creator of the preservers said he intended them to be the same and left it possible. But constantly swapping between "ancient humanoids" for the TV show and "preservers" for sto would be confusing and annoying.
I think I'm the source of more than enough of both for one thread. ~.^
Conflating the terms is probably not hurting anything.
I thought it would've been better if the player had "won the battle but lost the war," so to speak - ie. come away with a small victory even as in the big picture things went to heck. There are ways to do a desperate rearguard action well that give the player some agency. This wasn't one of them.
Sort of like the space battle at the end of "Second Wave," where the PC covers the runabouts escaping DS9?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Actually, being that the preservers state they were ALONE in the galaxy, they may not have had any drive or reason to devlope beyond a certain point. And even the latter stages of their development could have been slow (as in millions of years between breakthroughs) because their was no pressing need to change. And then there is the fact that they are alien, so thier sensabilities and thirst for knowledge would not necessarily be the same as ours.
In Cannon there is no definate statement of when the Gateway was built or as to when the Preservers achieved sentience. But by the single statement that the preservers were alone in the galaxy, the Gateway has to have been created either by them or one of their first seeded races. Which places the Gateway as being younger than the Preservers.
They specifically said "thousands of lonely years", so let's say ten thousand to give the benifit of the doubt (they didn't say hundreds of thousanda, or tens of thousands, so we'll include all single digits).
5,000,000,000 Sol &the guardian is last asked a question.
4,500,010,000 ten thousand lonely years
4,500,000,000 preservers seed the galaxy
They are (and I need to rewatch the chase to find the source of the date memory alpha states it but offers no evidence) 4.5 bn years old per the chase.
The guardian was last asked a question "before your sun burned hot in space" per city on the edge of forever. It existedmlonger than this and doesn't say "how much before".
Sol has "burned hot in space" for more than 4.5bn years per trek (voyager) and real science. Yes it started to form 5bn, it doesn't need 500 million years to get hot.
So, either the guardian lied
The preservers were hundreds of times more stagnant than the voth
The preservers didn't know about any race that came before them
The preservers lied
One of those four is what happened.
I'm guessing #3. I don't think either lied. I think the preservers simply didn't find the guardian's planet.
My biggest issue is the "first children" line. That is a massive jump.
From the TV shows, these dates are canon:
4,500,000,000 preservers seed the galaxy
4,500,000,000 Sol becomes a star, (per trek from best info at the time)
0,065,000,000 voth leave earth
0,000,200,000 iconian empire falls
So, seriously, what the heck? How did the iconians jump from being half as old as the bajorans to a hundred times older than the voth, or 25,000 times older than TNG says they are?
Technically there's nothing that says it can't be true. But if it is, they are the most pathetic unintelligent losers in the history of our galaxy. Given the time involved, their being so far behind the traveler the organians and many others vastly younger than them makes them basically grown up kazon. If we mock the voth for doctrine holding them back for millions of years how pathetic are the iconians to be this far behind after billions?
At least them preservers were in stasis the whole time. Why haven't the iconians ascended like the organians and others?
The Iconian Empire fell 200,000 years ago. That is the only date we have on the species. I think it's likely that they existed for far longer than that. Remember, they had the gateway technology for (presumably) a relatively long time before their fall.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
They specifically said "thousands of lonely years", so let's say ten thousand to give the benifit of the doubt (they didn't say hundreds of thousanda, or tens of thousands, so we'll include all single digits).
5,000,000,000 Sol &the guardian is last asked a question.
4,500,010,000 ten thousand lonely years
4,500,000,000 preservers seed the galaxy
They are (and I need to rewatch the chase to find the source of the date memory alpha states it but offers no evidence) 4.5 bn years old per the chase.
The guardian was last asked a question "before your sun burned hot in space" per city on the edge of forever. It existedmlonger than this and doesn't say "how much before".
Sol has "burned hot in space" for more than 4.5bn years per trek (voyager) and real science. Yes it started to form 5bn, it doesn't need 500 million years to get hot.
So, either the guardian lied
The preservers were hundreds of times more stagnant than the voth
The preservers didn't know about any race that came before them
The preservers lied
One of those four is what happened.
I'm guessing #3. I don't think either lied. I think the preservers simply didn't find the guardian's planet.
Only one option you are not considering, What if those "Thousands of lonely years" occured before the Gateway was built?
It was 4.5 Billion years ago that they seeded the galaxy, but to have perfected the technology before that you had to have experimented on natural and (possibly) artifical life. Which gives rise to the fact that in thier quest to seed planets they first took a more direct approach to uplifting and then directing sentient developement. And this would so nicely eliminate the lonely years, while still proceeding with the seeding directives.
It also kinda nicely explains why the preservers may well know the Iconians by name, as they are a species they may have uplifted as opposed to seeded. And if the preservers had controlled the Iconians access to technology, it could be why they have such animosity towards the Preservers. Not only from keeping them from the technology to protect themeselves, but for actually creating the very creatures who destroyed their empire. And the servitor races being either the Iconians attempts at gaining the power of their forefathers, or their crude attempts at copying the science they could 'acquire' from the Preservers.
The difference between the Preservers and the Iconians would be motive. Preservers created others because they didn't want to be alone. The Iconians created life because they wanted to control others for their own benefit.
There is still no evidence that you have presented that states that the Preservers did not exist before the Gateway. And there is more implied evidence showing that the Preservers existed before the Gateway. But even that is only implied, not proven. Still, it more beleivable to me that the Preservers created the Iconians and many other races and were the first species to gain sentience, that to accept that a species came before the Preservers, who seeded billions upon billions of planets with life, and never once came across any evidence of a race existing before them.
The Gateway not knowing much about the Preservers is beleivable to me too, while it's knowledge is vast, it does not know everything. And the builders may have not considered that knowledge to be important enough for it's function.
Nonsense, there's nothing unscientific about it. WE, in real life, have blah blah blah...
In the beginning, there was a mystical figure in a white robe. This white-robed white person created humans in his image and guided them to look the way they are.
Preservers = creationism in Star Trek.
This is actually not the same thing as breeding a juicier cow or an edible banana. Not at all. Because those things already existed when humans got their hands on them. What you expect me to believe is that, in Star Trek, God did it.
The artist formerly known as PlanetofHats.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
The guardians exact words to kirk were that it had waited for a question "since before your sun burned hot in space". Per the trek timeline that's 5bn years (voyager episode death wish). Per best modern science its 4.567bn years.
So yes, per trek canon the guardian is at least 500 million years older than the preservers. Per modern science they would be 60 million years apart with the guardian still being older. After all, he didn't say how much before Sol formed. Might be one day, might be another billion years older.
Perhaps you are thinking of the ruined city built around the guardian. According to Spock's estimate the city was about 1 million years old.
Memory apha's timeline is not perfect. Check the episodes in question.
It's worth noting that the quote does not actually establish the AGE of the Guardian. Merely the amount of time it waited for a question.
Although this raises another mind-boggling question. If the Preservers didn't even exist yet, WHO asked the Guardian a question first?
Then there's this enigmatic phrase: I am my own beginning, my own ending. What's THAT supposed to mean? Did it somehow create itself?
That's utterly ridiculous. The God of myth created the entire Universe, and exists outside of it and existed before it. He / it is inherently supernatural.
That is NOT even remotely the same as ancient aliens using super advanced technology and superior science to accomplish a feat of genetic engineering on a galactic scale. I remind you, in universal terms a single galaxy is a flyspeck. Star Trek isn't the first piece of science fiction to include the concept of hyper-advanced ancient aliens, and it won't be the last. It's as much a science fiction trope as aliens at all, or starships or ray guns or any of the rest.
The only person inserting religion into it is you.
Again: With the Preservers, you have a white-robed Caucasian alien creating mankind in its image. That's literally the Book of Genesis. The parallels with God and Genesis are barely even subtextual. They're blatant.
If you don't see the relationship, you don't see it.
P.S.: I thought the universe was created by Zeus.
The artist formerly known as PlanetofHats.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
But by the single statement that the preservers were alone in the galaxy, the Gateway has to have been created either by them or one of their first seeded races.
Perhaps the Guardian was built by a species from another galaxy. Perhaps the ancient humanoids themselves were seeded by a yet older species. Perhaps the Guardian exists outside of time; perhaps it hasn't even been constructed yet, and once constructed immediately exists in all of time.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
I don't like the Preservers being the "gods" either.
However, I think having them actually takes out any room for God. We weren't willed into being by a Creator. We weren't set off in a big bang as part of a grand cosmic plan where I don't know how many things had to align just so for life as we know it to exist on this speck of rock hurtling around the sun. Nope, some aliens threw fertilized eggs at a bunch of planets and presto, we came into being (over a long period of time and through evolution). It explains why a majority of the aliens we run into on the show look similar to us with different foreheads, but it cheapens our existence I think.
I'd prefer some mystery to remain. I think there is a God and I see no reason why science must be at odds with that. Personally, I also don't see why Star Trek needs to be at odds with that concept either (except for that stupid episode of TNG - actually, it was a good episode with a sh!tty ending).
And yes, I know Roddenberry advocated for humanism/atheism. Yet, there was still a ship's chapel on the Enterprise.
Even Picard, who was critical of religion numerous times, allows for something in the realm of a spiritual aspect to life, to existence - why am I here? When Nagilum asks him (pretending to be Data) what death is, he responds that there are two general beliefs - essentially, an afterlife or nothingness. Asked which one he believes, he says, "Considering the marvelous complexity of our universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond Euclidian and other practical measuring systems and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality. "
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
Perhaps the Guardian was built by a species from another galaxy. Perhaps the ancient humanoids themselves were seeded by a yet older species. Perhaps the Guardian exists outside of time; perhaps it hasn't even been constructed yet, and once constructed immediately exists in all of time.
The more interesting thing is that the guardian is basically an iconian gateway that has the ability to travel through time.
Which is fun, because if you talk to the Prophets about the iconians they say 'the Others saved them and the Others will safe them again.'
I personally think the others refers to the Heralds though, as they are from the same planet so saying 'the others' when refering to them in the same sentence as the iconians makes sense.
Other topics:
The Guardian being first asked a question:
Actually Q says that the Q were always there.
No Q has any need at all to ask the guardian a question, they know the answer anyway.
Here I'd like to point out the similarities between the iconian gateways and the guardian of forever out again.
Yet what we also know is: the Iconians can't time travel, thus they were likely not the ones who built the gurardian.
The Preservers on the other hand might be able to... Also the preservers never actually had any need to look around for other life if they built/found the guardian as they simply needed to ask him whether they were alone out there. (thus 'seekers of an answer')
The Preservers and the humans...
You know in the case of humans specifically I'm not even sure the preserers had that much of a role as with other species.
The first ones to evolve into sentient life on earth in ST were the Voth, Humans came ways afterwards.
I'm not saying hey had none at all, but not as much as they might have had with other races.
tbH I was half expecting the preserver to make a comment on humans being their youngest children who came further than they ever expected, or the children they never expected to be concieved - something along those lines.
The Preservers exinction
There were actually just a few hundred preservers on the planet, so even if they actually died (which I doubt), there is a good chance that there might be more of them hidden away elsewhere.
The story pretty much tells you the alliances greatest weapon against the iconians, namely time travel.
It is something the alliance can do that the Iconians can't.
Heck this might even be the start of the temporal war happening in the 26th century, since we already know that the Xindi will be involved in it by then.
Tbh I kinda expect Drake to give us a cloaking device in anotther mission to do another sling shot, so we can safe the Preservers on Laenas.
That is at least the only other reason than 'we never manged to flesh them out or use them' for not beaming them all up the moment the planet got attacked.
Temporal weapponry
Really I am surprised no one in Alliance command thought about just puutting the iconians in a temporal distorition field, which is so often used in ST, or open a temporal rift near them.
Back to the Guardian
Anyway, while the Guardian is apparently just an upgraded, sentient version of an Iconian Gateway the iconians couldn't have been the ones who built it.
Yet, the Iconians seem, at least until now, have no interest in it, despite it being a possible weapon against them.
- the other question is:
Considering how similar the Guardian works to an Iconian gateway - might they be able to use the guardian after all to time travel?
Perhaps the Guardian was built by a species from another galaxy. Perhaps the ancient humanoids themselves were seeded by a yet older species. Perhaps the Guardian exists outside of time; perhaps it hasn't even been constructed yet, and once constructed immediately exists in all of time.
Still doesn't answer the question of how the preservers can be alone in the galaxy. By the very nature of seeding the galaxy, you would have encountered any evidence of a previous sentient species. The preservers say they were the first to become sentient. Something that can't be true if their is evidance of a previous ancient culture around.
The Preservers, by cannon, are the first intelligent species, and nothing could have been left behind by a species older than them. For there is no older species than the first species.
Just who built the Gateway has never been stated. And just how old the Preservers and the Gateway are, also, has not been stated. But by the very definition of being first, there cannot be another species older than the Preservers. And it took thousands of years before another intelligent species came along, whether naturally, or by direction, is unclear and unknown at this time.
I'd just love for the Iconians to appear before me, not to kill NPCs and planets, but to try to kill me. Maybe I'd get a nice challenge then.
Not really. M'taru or whatever 'her' name was tried in the gateway chamber on New Romulus - my away team and I wiped the floor with her star-spangled TRIBBLE. Then she cutscenes in and kills the Preserver while I'm standing right there and ready to blast her to atoms *again*.
I don't generally get frustrated with game design - I've thought a lot of the recent work on STO has been good. But this episode, as a previous poster said, just highlights that you do not matter.
"You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
--Red Annorax
You said it's "literally the book of Genesis". Clearly it's not, unless you think an eternal being older and bigger than the entire universe creating said universe and then directly creating humans, all via unlimited supernatural power, is the same thing as mortal humanoid aliens performing genetic engineering on many worlds in a single galaxy. If you're going to make your standards that vague, then EVERY creation / origin story qualifies as being "literally the book of Genesis". Including the Star Trek version of technological Genesis as seen in Star Trek II.
In fact, by that standard the movie Prometheus is identical to the first book of the Bible / Torah. I bet a metric asston of Christians and Jews would be shocked to learn that one! While you're laying that one on them, you should let them know that the Monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssey is also the exact same story as the one in their holy book.
That of course means that Prometheus and 2001 are the same movie, and that's an even more dangerous claim to make. I know religious people can be pretty hardcore, but they don't hold a candle to Kubrik fans. Be careful.
Confirmed for not knowing what subtext is.
You're getting bogged down in small details. What you're basically saying is that if you have two chocolate cakes, one with pink icing and one with yellow icing, they can't both be chocolate cakes because one's a different colour.
The artist formerly known as PlanetofHats.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
I'm fairly certain "blatant subtext" is also an oxymoron.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
Thank you. S/he's trying to fall back on one word in their statement that contradicts the rest of the tone and thrust of the post, because s/he was called out on it. It is as I called it, a clear case of backpedaling and moving the goalposts.
People like that make me wish the forums had an ignore function.
Actually I've made the same point consistently throughout this argument. The one trying to pull a gotcha based on one word in my argument is you, I'm sorry to say. If you don't see the parallels between the Book of Genesis and a story where a mystical white-robed figure starts out alone in the universe and creates humanity in its own image, you don't see them, and that's fine.
You're free to stop responding any time you like.
The artist formerly known as PlanetofHats.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
Comments
Actually, being that the preservers state they were ALONE in the galaxy, they may not have had any drive or reason to devlope beyond a certain point. And even the latter stages of their development could have been slow (as in millions of years between breakthroughs) because their was no pressing need to change. And then there is the fact that they are alien, so thier sensabilities and thirst for knowledge would not necessarily be the same as ours.
In Cannon there is no definate statement of when the Gateway was built or as to when the Preservers achieved sentience. But by the single statement that the preservers were alone in the galaxy, the Gateway has to have been created either by them or one of their first seeded races. Which places the Gateway as being younger than the Preservers.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Sort of. The creator of the preservers said he intended them to be the same and left it possible. But constantly swapping between "ancient humanoids" for the TV show and "preservers" for sto would be confusing and annoying.
I think I'm the source of more than enough of both for one thread. ~.^
Conflating the terms is probably not hurting anything.
Sort of like the space battle at the end of "Second Wave," where the PC covers the runabouts escaping DS9?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
They specifically said "thousands of lonely years", so let's say ten thousand to give the benifit of the doubt (they didn't say hundreds of thousanda, or tens of thousands, so we'll include all single digits).
5,000,000,000 Sol &the guardian is last asked a question.
4,500,010,000 ten thousand lonely years
4,500,000,000 preservers seed the galaxy
They are (and I need to rewatch the chase to find the source of the date memory alpha states it but offers no evidence) 4.5 bn years old per the chase.
The guardian was last asked a question "before your sun burned hot in space" per city on the edge of forever. It existedmlonger than this and doesn't say "how much before".
Sol has "burned hot in space" for more than 4.5bn years per trek (voyager) and real science. Yes it started to form 5bn, it doesn't need 500 million years to get hot.
So, either the guardian lied
The preservers were hundreds of times more stagnant than the voth
The preservers didn't know about any race that came before them
The preservers lied
One of those four is what happened.
I'm guessing #3. I don't think either lied. I think the preservers simply didn't find the guardian's planet.
The Iconian Empire fell 200,000 years ago. That is the only date we have on the species. I think it's likely that they existed for far longer than that. Remember, they had the gateway technology for (presumably) a relatively long time before their fall.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Only one option you are not considering, What if those "Thousands of lonely years" occured before the Gateway was built?
It was 4.5 Billion years ago that they seeded the galaxy, but to have perfected the technology before that you had to have experimented on natural and (possibly) artifical life. Which gives rise to the fact that in thier quest to seed planets they first took a more direct approach to uplifting and then directing sentient developement. And this would so nicely eliminate the lonely years, while still proceeding with the seeding directives.
It also kinda nicely explains why the preservers may well know the Iconians by name, as they are a species they may have uplifted as opposed to seeded. And if the preservers had controlled the Iconians access to technology, it could be why they have such animosity towards the Preservers. Not only from keeping them from the technology to protect themeselves, but for actually creating the very creatures who destroyed their empire. And the servitor races being either the Iconians attempts at gaining the power of their forefathers, or their crude attempts at copying the science they could 'acquire' from the Preservers.
The difference between the Preservers and the Iconians would be motive. Preservers created others because they didn't want to be alone. The Iconians created life because they wanted to control others for their own benefit.
There is still no evidence that you have presented that states that the Preservers did not exist before the Gateway. And there is more implied evidence showing that the Preservers existed before the Gateway. But even that is only implied, not proven. Still, it more beleivable to me that the Preservers created the Iconians and many other races and were the first species to gain sentience, that to accept that a species came before the Preservers, who seeded billions upon billions of planets with life, and never once came across any evidence of a race existing before them.
The Gateway not knowing much about the Preservers is beleivable to me too, while it's knowledge is vast, it does not know everything. And the builders may have not considered that knowledge to be important enough for it's function.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
In the beginning, there was a mystical figure in a white robe. This white-robed white person created humans in his image and guided them to look the way they are.
Preservers = creationism in Star Trek.
This is actually not the same thing as breeding a juicier cow or an edible banana. Not at all. Because those things already existed when humans got their hands on them. What you expect me to believe is that, in Star Trek, God did it.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
Although this raises another mind-boggling question. If the Preservers didn't even exist yet, WHO asked the Guardian a question first?
Then there's this enigmatic phrase: I am my own beginning, my own ending. What's THAT supposed to mean? Did it somehow create itself?
My character Tsin'xing
Again: With the Preservers, you have a white-robed Caucasian alien creating mankind in its image. That's literally the Book of Genesis. The parallels with God and Genesis are barely even subtextual. They're blatant.
If you don't see the relationship, you don't see it.
P.S.: I thought the universe was created by Zeus.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
However, I think having them actually takes out any room for God. We weren't willed into being by a Creator. We weren't set off in a big bang as part of a grand cosmic plan where I don't know how many things had to align just so for life as we know it to exist on this speck of rock hurtling around the sun. Nope, some aliens threw fertilized eggs at a bunch of planets and presto, we came into being (over a long period of time and through evolution). It explains why a majority of the aliens we run into on the show look similar to us with different foreheads, but it cheapens our existence I think.
I'd prefer some mystery to remain. I think there is a God and I see no reason why science must be at odds with that. Personally, I also don't see why Star Trek needs to be at odds with that concept either (except for that stupid episode of TNG - actually, it was a good episode with a sh!tty ending).
And yes, I know Roddenberry advocated for humanism/atheism. Yet, there was still a ship's chapel on the Enterprise.
Even Picard, who was critical of religion numerous times, allows for something in the realm of a spiritual aspect to life, to existence - why am I here? When Nagilum asks him (pretending to be Data) what death is, he responds that there are two general beliefs - essentially, an afterlife or nothingness. Asked which one he believes, he says, "Considering the marvelous complexity of our universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond Euclidian and other practical measuring systems and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality. "
The more interesting thing is that the guardian is basically an iconian gateway that has the ability to travel through time.
Which is fun, because if you talk to the Prophets about the iconians they say 'the Others saved them and the Others will safe them again.'
I personally think the others refers to the Heralds though, as they are from the same planet so saying 'the others' when refering to them in the same sentence as the iconians makes sense.
Other topics:
The Guardian being first asked a question:
Actually Q says that the Q were always there.
No Q has any need at all to ask the guardian a question, they know the answer anyway.
Here I'd like to point out the similarities between the iconian gateways and the guardian of forever out again.
Yet what we also know is: the Iconians can't time travel, thus they were likely not the ones who built the gurardian.
The Preservers on the other hand might be able to... Also the preservers never actually had any need to look around for other life if they built/found the guardian as they simply needed to ask him whether they were alone out there. (thus 'seekers of an answer')
The Preservers and the humans...
You know in the case of humans specifically I'm not even sure the preserers had that much of a role as with other species.
The first ones to evolve into sentient life on earth in ST were the Voth, Humans came ways afterwards.
I'm not saying hey had none at all, but not as much as they might have had with other races.
tbH I was half expecting the preserver to make a comment on humans being their youngest children who came further than they ever expected, or the children they never expected to be concieved - something along those lines.
The Preservers exinction
There were actually just a few hundred preservers on the planet, so even if they actually died (which I doubt), there is a good chance that there might be more of them hidden away elsewhere.
The story pretty much tells you the alliances greatest weapon against the iconians, namely time travel.
It is something the alliance can do that the Iconians can't.
Heck this might even be the start of the temporal war happening in the 26th century, since we already know that the Xindi will be involved in it by then.
Tbh I kinda expect Drake to give us a cloaking device in anotther mission to do another sling shot, so we can safe the Preservers on Laenas.
That is at least the only other reason than 'we never manged to flesh them out or use them' for not beaming them all up the moment the planet got attacked.
Temporal weapponry
Really I am surprised no one in Alliance command thought about just puutting the iconians in a temporal distorition field, which is so often used in ST, or open a temporal rift near them.
Back to the Guardian
Anyway, while the Guardian is apparently just an upgraded, sentient version of an Iconian Gateway the iconians couldn't have been the ones who built it.
Yet, the Iconians seem, at least until now, have no interest in it, despite it being a possible weapon against them.
- the other question is:
Considering how similar the Guardian works to an Iconian gateway - might they be able to use the guardian after all to time travel?
You... honestly don't see how those stories parallel each other...?
Do you know what subtext is?
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
I actually said the subtext is blatant. It's still subtext. Try again, Debate Team Champion.
PROTIP: It's not that the goalposts are moving. You're just at the opposite end of the field.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
Still doesn't answer the question of how the preservers can be alone in the galaxy. By the very nature of seeding the galaxy, you would have encountered any evidence of a previous sentient species. The preservers say they were the first to become sentient. Something that can't be true if their is evidance of a previous ancient culture around.
The Preservers, by cannon, are the first intelligent species, and nothing could have been left behind by a species older than them. For there is no older species than the first species.
Just who built the Gateway has never been stated. And just how old the Preservers and the Gateway are, also, has not been stated. But by the very definition of being first, there cannot be another species older than the Preservers. And it took thousands of years before another intelligent species came along, whether naturally, or by direction, is unclear and unknown at this time.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
I don't generally get frustrated with game design - I've thought a lot of the recent work on STO has been good. But this episode, as a previous poster said, just highlights that you do not matter.
--Red Annorax
Confirmed for not knowing what subtext is.
You're getting bogged down in small details. What you're basically saying is that if you have two chocolate cakes, one with pink icing and one with yellow icing, they can't both be chocolate cakes because one's a different colour.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
I am shocked that all the preservers were wiped out.
The Cardassians Tholians, Breen and Dominion better join the war and quick.
Actually I've made the same point consistently throughout this argument. The one trying to pull a gotcha based on one word in my argument is you, I'm sorry to say. If you don't see the parallels between the Book of Genesis and a story where a mystical white-robed figure starts out alone in the universe and creates humanity in its own image, you don't see them, and that's fine.
You're free to stop responding any time you like.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.