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Section 31: A necessary evil?
kazisaki
Member Posts: 7 Arc User
After playing up to the part where you have to go through Franklin Drakes little test on a couple different characters now, i kind of find myself wishing that we were given some special dialog option/ accolade with that mission. Granted we are all starfleet captains who uphold the rules of the federation, and section 31 is kind of an affront to that. but, why cant our morality be just a little more grey? in one of that missions dialog options you get somthing basically saying "no i will never join you, section 31 is evil".
when the cardassian arc inevitably gets updated what would be cool to see is 2 green options both completing the mission where you make a choice or maybe 3 like "section 31 is not an organization that upholds starfleet principles" then " i refuse to agree with your methods, though i can see the need for 31" the " i understand now that the federation needs section 31 to survive". The end result all being basically the same where you continue to be a sleeper agent whenever they need your for somthing.
as for the accolades for those opposed "no worse than our enemies".
the neutral option "we will be in touch"
and the pro 31 option "the necessary evil".
obviously my grammar is rubbish but i hope its understandable enough to see some merit
when the cardassian arc inevitably gets updated what would be cool to see is 2 green options both completing the mission where you make a choice or maybe 3 like "section 31 is not an organization that upholds starfleet principles" then " i refuse to agree with your methods, though i can see the need for 31" the " i understand now that the federation needs section 31 to survive". The end result all being basically the same where you continue to be a sleeper agent whenever they need your for somthing.
as for the accolades for those opposed "no worse than our enemies".
the neutral option "we will be in touch"
and the pro 31 option "the necessary evil".
obviously my grammar is rubbish but i hope its understandable enough to see some merit
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by kazisaki on
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From what I've seen they are simply an organisation sanctioned by Starfleet with complete deniability who under special circumstances are able to work outside the rules for the preservation of the Federation, no more evil than the intelligence services that we rarely hear about in the world today.
That aside, I agree with this idea, most of my fed characters understand the need for and support the existence of S31.
Starfleet has its own intelligence service for obvious reasons, but a non elected (underground) government that decides whats best for the people is what i consider evil.
(no matter how "good" their intentions are.)
There's nothing "cool" about it these guys, they are the exact opposite what the federation stands for and they should stand trial for their actions imo.
how can you refuse to accept to s31s' methods and then say i will tolerate your methods because theres still a place for s31?
are you going to refuse them or not? :P
maybe there should be more depth to the questions and answers;
Drake: I will defend the Federation by any and all means that are acceptable, no matter how extraordinary they appear! These Undine are a clear and present danger to the Federation and we must eliminate them, once and for all.
Bajoran Captain: This is ridicious! Drake is attempting to fool you with propaganda of a better future! But in doing so you wil have to kill good hard working Starfleet officers to do such a thing, do you want that on your conscience? do you want the blood of hundreds of Starfleet officers on your hands?!
<Choice 1>
Drake: No matter what you may have been told, Section 31 is everywhere and we are the protectors of the Federation. I frankly don't care what your opinion of Section 31 is, [rank]! But rest assured it is my duty to carry out any means to eliminate these shapeshifting undine. If you choose to side with me to defend the Federation, by all means i would welcome your assistance, but if you refuse, you will be a traitor to everything the Federation is built on.
Player: I will help you, i may not agree with your methods and motives, but right now you have brought us here so we can help these officers and this ship. I Believe the captain is the Undine and so, i will assist you.
<Choice 2>
Bajoran Captain: I can assure you that i do not envy your position! It's a terrible choice to make and yet you have to pick a side. One of the founding principles of Starfleet is Mutual Respect, Cooperation and understanding. If you side with Drake, you are simply a traitor to Starfleet and the Federation no matter what, by upholidng this "extraordinary" threat business. Section 31 is a rogue operation we DO NOT condone or sanction. You help me take down Drake and prove he is the Undine, then it wil go a long way to proving for good that the Klingons were right about the Undine and in turn help expose the whole Section 31 organisation while we are it.
Player: It is our duty as Starfleet officers to deal with threats from within and outside Starfleet, Drake did not make a convincing case to that end. I will help you take down Drake as i believe he is the Undine infilitrator. What better way to get vital information then to become a section 31 operative. This make his a priority threat to the stability of the Federation.
<Choice 3>
Player: <Diplomacy> Neither side has made a convincing case as to who and who isn't an Undine infitrator. All i know is that a few crew members have been ravaged by a telepathic signal, but for all i know it could be coming from these anomalies that we just scanned. If we are to determine which of you are Undine, i wil have my crew run genetic tests on both of you to find out, either way if one of you is an undine then you get locked up or you can explain as to what your purpose is here.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
What does an "underground government" have to do with section 31? Which itself is part of SFI, an autonomous black ops group if you will, they don't decide anything in the federation, they gather intel, share it with overt SFI, develop technologies either themselves or by proxy through Starfleet's R&D and deal with threats Starfleet command can't for whatever reason.
There's nothing evil about that, admittedly sometimes the extreme measures they take in extreme situations could be avoided (like the incident with the founders) but at the same time their job is to protect the Federation by any means necessary, they aren't bound by rules to be nice or pretty about it the way Starfleet is.
S31 have nothing or no one to answer to, that kind of power who know weather what they are doing is good or not.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
well then you should tell that to your gov because nearly every modern country has a form of off the books leadership through black ops which the people never know anything about and they "do what they think is best" with every op.
doesn't make it right doesn't make it wrong either, why? because people are ignorant and their blind devotion to ideals can get people killed it can also seal the fate of a civilization.
Morals and Ideals count for nothing when you and your civilization are dead.
Officers of the federation may think that they should die believing in what the federation was founded on but my guess just like everyone else the "little people" would rather survive than die for ideals that can't protect them all the time.
Section 31 exist to do the things that the federation wont do so they don't have to.
As for whether they do good or not, its irrelevant .. Morals & ideals are a good thing to have...unless your survival is at stake and im not just talking individual survival but your entire race of civilization and for all we know slone was right in DS9 they've saved plenty of lives doing what they're doing. I see no evidence to argue so. Hell even drake was helping you in the klingon missions even though you were chasing him... its kind of pretty evident that while they may be "questionable characters" they are infact not there to be "tyrannical" but more or less not as morally "blocked".
In STO, S31 appears as the good guys. Everytime we meet them, they are more or less doing the Fed job, and are not ruthless in any way. In the shows, they are really ruthless, and will do anything to protect the federation. They are very similar to the non-sto tal shiar or obsidian order. Murder, genocide, weapons of mass destruction.... all of that is fine, as long as the Federation is safe. If they had a button to instantly removes the Romulan, Cardassian and Klingons from the galaxy, they would push it without hesitation.
I'd want to have a choice not to join them, ala Bashir, or to join them totally. The kind of moral issue we might have for example in SWTOR, especially in the Imperial Agent story. For those who doesn't know, you can have up to 4endings (perhaps more) for this story, depending on various choice you made through the game. From turning double agent and work for the Republic, to working freelance because Siths are that bad. While the story is not unique per say, it feels unique, because it follows your choices. Some of them are really tough, like letting the big bad guy go, or save billions civilians ? Kill your buddies who haven't done anything bad, just to catch your target ? A target that's not a bad guy, but just someone on the other side of the conflict. The kind of moral issue from being deep undercover that's not easy to face.
That's the kind of stuff I'm totally missing in STO. We are completely railroaded. Tricking my allies in DR ? I'll complain but do it, no matter my character. My rom was fine with that, my fed and klingons ? Not so much.
Playing mercenary for the Hierarchy and kill a bunch of Malon that were scammed ? Fine for my klingon, not so much for my fed.
And so on.
Sure sometime we have the illusion of choice. Lethal or non lethal mode for facility whatever in the 2nd part of the cardassian arc, doesn't matter, it's EXACTLY the same, you shoot people, and nothing happen. Non lethal doesn't disintegrate them though. Big deal. Siding with Obisek in frozen ? Don't worry, you can kill or capture all of his goons, and he'll act as if nothing happened.
Section 31 did not incline you to investigate abnormal phenomenons on drozana station.
Section 31 did not break all regulations to send you back in time to prevent a cataclysmic event.
In fact the there is no such thing as a organization you label as "section 31", so how can something that dosen't even exist be evil?
Please move on 'cause you didn't see anything.:D
Babies (and this is not known, OBVIOUSLY) are being indoctrinated and conditioned to live by a certain standard, upheld by a few very rich and powerful people.
It's not even sure they are human.
However, such as with the folks on 31, there are always those that resist that treatment, and contain their free will.
YOU, hero captain, are not one of them. :P
Serious now:
I too find it quite annoying there are no more options, and that given options have absolutely no impact in the game.
--The Undying?
Whether or not you kill him, it makes no difference.
--DS9, Borg Meeting: whatever you say to the people there, it has absolutely no impact.
Andsoonandsoforth.
The existence of freedom is, especially in STO, a mere fata morgana...
It's quite real, it exists, it just isn't openly acknowledged by Starfleet. Malcolm Reed from Enterprise was once a recruit of Section 31, so is Admiral Marcus in the 'alternate' timeline version of the current movies. Section 31 built the Vengence.
Technically, Section 31 does not violate any Starfleet rules at all. The name was taken from a section of the Starfleet Charter which allows for 'extraordinary measures to be taken in times of extreme threat.' The only people in Section 31 are Starfleet Officers, they still uphold Starfleet values, they just understand that sometimes you can't talk your way out of everything and when being a peace loving hippie doesn't work, you might have to break some heads to make sure you're not on the wrong end of an extinction event.
With all the threats out there ranging from the Borg, to the Iconians and their 'servitor races,' Section 31 is an absolute must. While it doesn't mean they should be unnecessarily brutal or focus on wiping people out, it makes complete sense to make sure you have a contingency that protects you when all other options fail. They are not like the Tal'Shiar, they work within the rules until there is absolutely no other choice. They don't just automatically leap to the 'nuclear option,' they're just a group of dedicated officers that realize that sometimes you have to do things you would rather not for the 'greater good.'
I think of them like the 'Jack Bauer' of Starfleet.
I would absolutely join up with them if the game gave me the option.
And Big Boss Bauer would be the guy who'd hire you.:D
Need to send an "agent" back in time to wipe out a rogue comet? Section 31 can bypass Temporal Investigations...
Time to "randomly" test an officer? Just intercept their transporter beams, etc., and stuff them in a badly written holodeck program where they are "tested".
Most of the "super spy agencies" have high commands and report to a governmental official, and usually make it clear that they are "bound by rules". Drake acts like there are no rules, he can rack up more prime directive violations than Kirk ever did and he acts like he'll never have to file a report other than "it was for the good of the Federation".
Speaking of such, can I go visit Talos IV, have a party with the Talosians, and when called out for it claim to be a section 31 agent and get away with it?
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
"dang I dunno which one of yer is undine so I'll kill ya both - just in case"
both of my chars qould do it
S31 is NOT part of SFI. Cryptic didn't know that, appearantly, but DS9 (when S31 was concieved - as a villian, no less) made it clear that it's just a xenophobic, racist militia with sympathisants and collaborateurs in the higher levels of the UFP.
In my opinion I facepalm every time S31 is portrayed as a Jack Bauer-esque hero organization in this game. One of the biggest mistakes Cryptic and presumably ENT made. ENT rode on the 9/11 homeland security wave to save the show, Cryptic didn't have to appeal to this kind of popular culture that's, well, popular right now.
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They're also part of the Federation Charter. "Militia" is entirely inappropriate. Racist and Xenophobic also doesn't ring true either. See. FEDERATION charter.
Neither did. Section 31 in STO is a facilitator. Section 31 in ENT was a duplicious facilitator. At no point did any one of their agents punch someone in the face or resort to "yelling alot" as an interrigation tactic. They just arranged things with key people, ie. played politics.
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They named themselves after a part of the charter they interpreted how they see fit. It is not an official body.
S31 attempted to commit genocide at least once. Is that what you call "playing politics"?
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They're not officially recognized, but they are comprised of Starfleet Personnel.
Unless you're talking about their desire to wipe out the Founders to cripple the Dominion, that's simply never happened. What 'Genocide' are you referring to exactly?
The link is a pretty much uniform antagonistic force in control of vast military resources.
The AQ struggled to keep up with a detached force that got cut off.
Eliminating the core of the dominion power by terminating the link while also effectively having cut off the dominion jem hadar from access to the AQ either by minefield or prophet intervention is the BEST time to terminate the species. The Dominion would fall into chaos and since it cannot spill over to the AQ.. Well. Win win for S31.
Your point? When a bunch of police officers decide to shoot ethnic minorities in their spare time, does that mean the police does support and is responsible for their actions?
Their "desire"? They infected Odo without his knowledge with a virus that was designed to wipe out their entire species. Only a combined effort of O'Brien, Bashir and Odo interferred with their plan.
EDIT:
I know the story. But do you want to suggest genocide is a viable strategy?
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hows that for you 'good-guy,Jack Bauer' types
my barely coherent 2.5 creds worth
A totally tasteless and irrelevant comparison. I won't dignify that ridiculous excuse for an example with any further response.
They chose to take action to wipe out a threat that they felt was trying to exterminate them in kind. Thats not the same as wanting to wanting to exterminate them because they didn't like or agree with them.
If they're attempting to exterminate us? Then yes.
If its going to be them or us.. It sure as heck isn't going to be us. It was no more evil then it would have been to upload the virus to the Borg.. Which also should have been done.
Anyway, given the nature of S31, it occurs to me that if the writers had wanted to flesh out the idea of them contacting you every so often with 'requests', one aspect of that mechanic would be secret objectives within missions (TIE Fighter being a classic example of this, with Call of Juarez: The Cartel being another; and yes, the additional objectives for Delta Recruits here could qualify).
Flexible ethics are a wonderful thing, aren't they?
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Yes.
Especially if the negative fallout can be effectively avoided.
Oh btw: The Cardassian Obsidian order and Romulan Tal shiar agree:
KILL ALL ZE FIOUNDERS! And lets demolish the planet too!!!!!
I do have a counter to that in two effects.
1) we do not hear Quinn or any other official asking for paperwork on our missions.
2) City on the Edge of Never: One line from Quinn is about how temporal investigations will want interviews because time travel is not routine. (So he thinks) Then turns around and tells temporal investigations it was necessary for the mission when they question your ship description being in the Enterprise logs. Thus he wrote you a blank check for that one.
Now my counter to section 31 is bad because they did bad things. So have the CIA and FBI. But they change. New guys up top try and reign things in and clean house. At no point did Drake do anything that felt shady to me. Only concerned. About the only thing he said that ever raised an eyebrow was his description of Bepi 131. And how it is used for more creative methods of fixing problems. (THAT one made me want to see his books.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Starfleet intelligence is authorized to do such things, Sec. 31 is simply a bunch of people acting as if they would stand above the law without ANY authorisation by the government or anyone else.
That's a huge difference, even compared to the tal shiar or the obsidian order which are official intelligence services acting on their governments behalf.
This group takes the liberty to decide whats best for the federation and acts accordingly (which is assumption of authority at least).
Their actions are not only criminal but they also endanger federations reputation.
Personally i am astonished that people feel sympathy for Sec 31.