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Random Crafting is horribly innefficient

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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    lucho80 wrote: »
    The solution isn't letting people pick the mods, but fixing the mods we have to balance them out and taking out the ones not working (PvP).

    [Dmg] - Needs a serious boost
    [CtrH]/[CrtD] - They need to be rebalanced (Yes, not a popular idea, but they need it)
    [Thrust] - Not sure why the devs thought this was going to be popular

    [Thrust] because we needed an offset mod to [Snare]

    CrtH Does need a bit of a buffage. At max +8% Crit chance? Really?

    CrtD - Ehh, this should actually give half the bonus that it does.

    Dmg - Hmm perhaps a double up on this one?

    PvP Dmg - Because everone wants +3 damage against players. I think it's suppose to be +3%.

    PvP Res - +5% All Damage Bonus Resistance.

    For the pvp ones. I can see the PvP Damage one maybe needing a buff. The Res one... since damage right now is mostly about crit. Wouldn't a % Reduction in Crit Damage or Crit itself be better?
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  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    kiardras wrote: »
    If you let people pick the mods, all you will get are the same mods on every weapon. The "good" mods will become worthless on the exchange, and most of them will never even get used.

    Random is good. Random lets you try different things.

    Where the crafting system fails is that not all mods are worth having. If every mod was worth using in different builds/ways, then not getting CritDx4 stops being worthless, and actually opens you up options.

    Without random mods, those "gimped" combinations will stop popping up in the exchange. The only reason they are there is because they are failures.

    As for "trying different things", I'd rather not "try" things that are proven to be inefficient.

    Non-random is win/win in my eyes. If the devs addressed mod disparity and they were all worth having, the exchange would be filled with different combinations and there would be similar demand for all of them. It helps everyone, crafters and not.
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  • mynameisnommynameisnom Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    lucho80 wrote: »
    The solution isn't letting people pick the mods, but fixing the mods we have to balance them out and taking out the ones not working (PvP).

    [Dmg] - Needs a serious boost
    [CtrH]/[CrtD] - They need to be rebalanced (Yes, not a popular idea, but they need it)
    [Thrust] - Not sure why the devs thought this was going to be popular

    Very true. However crth doesn't deserve a nerf IMO. A buff even. No one uses them. There's no need to what with romulans being able to hit 1/3 crth alone /w out buffs. As for thrust and snare, just remove them. Too random, too unreliable, not even that good

    Edit: also buff acc? With all these intel command and pilot stuff adding speed, debuffing accuracy accuracy, adding defense I've tried a accx5 Beamer build recently, using nukara console, Undine deflector, Undine accuracy trait upon buffs, even that accuracy over time trait and I missed a LOT. It's made anyone not using surgical invalid. The only way I'm able to hit stuff is if I use surgical, slow the target, or if I'm fighting a carrier/cruiser.
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    stoutes wrote: »
    Those fish are much like their masters, filthy backstabbers... All battlecloaked fish, waiting for the right moment...
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited April 2015
    trennan wrote: »
    [Thrust] because we needed an offset mod to [Snare]

    Lol, since Thrust is a proc that makes the target fly fast in one direction, which is dumb, I don't see how it's of any use. One Thrust proc on a Nanoprobe sphere in ISA, and you fail the STF.

    Snare on the other hand can be useful to increase damage on the target, it just isn't at all with the current state of the game, which is why [Pen] is king of the new mods.
  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 615 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Even with the RNG and time gates, the market is already awash in VR/UR items with maximal procs for which the buyer just needs to add their own dili and upgrades.

    The additional proc of epic is silly, absurdly expensive for what one gets, and they too are becoming common. Once upon a time the borg sets were out of reach for most players, and OP. Now people treat the set like toys in the bottom of a box of cereal.

    Basically what you are asking for is the end of anything but ultimate end game items.

    I say this as an MMO Crafter since the dial up days: the current system is a crafter's wet dream, the kind of player that wants to make stuff and sell it. There is no real competition to crafted items right now. It is too generous.

    And you want to make power creep a mindless click fest. Ugh. No thank you. You want automatic power creep with no effort, go buy fleet.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited April 2015
    Even with the RNG and time gates, the market is already awash in VR/UR items with maximal procs for which the buyer just needs to add their own dili and upgrades.

    The additional proc of epic is silly, absurdly expensive for what one gets, and they too are becoming common. Once upon a time the borg sets were out of reach for most players, and OP. Now people treat the set like toys in the bottom of a box of cereal.

    Basically what you are asking for is the end of anything but ultimate end game items.

    I say this as an MMO Crafter since the dial up days: the current system is a crafter's wet dream, the kind of player that wants to make stuff and sell it. There is no real competition to crafted items right now. It is too generous.

    And you want to make power creep a mindless click fest. Ugh. No thank you. You want automatic power creep with no effort, go buy fleet.

    ^
    You speak the truth, but most people treat crafting as their personal way to get traits and items updated instead of a tool to potentially sell stuff. So the average player:

    1) Levels up to level 15 and stops
    2) Gear wise only crafts level II beams or Arc beams because "that is the only thing worth crafting". Maybe plays the sci and eng console lottery to see if they get [ResAll], [PrtG], [ShdS], or [Turn] so sell it.
    3) Crafts superior and experimental beam upgrades to use on him/herself.

    I rarely see people crafting other stuff out there like deflectors, and I don't blame them with all the rep gear out there, but in my case, it was worth it. The ONLY deflector that boosts flow caps up to +40 is only available from crafting. Not sure if there is a +40 grav gens deflector in a rep, but if not, it's also the only way to get one of those. Yes, these are used for "obscure" science build, but some people do look for them.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited April 2015
  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 615 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    lucho80 wrote: »
    ^
    You speak the truth, but most people treat crafting as their personal way to get traits and items updated instead of a tool to potentially sell stuff. So the average player: (...)
    Absolutely agreed. The average player gets pissed off that they should take part in a greater economy . playstyle. It annoys me but I get it, they are annoyed for for the same reason I don't play games that force me into PvP.

    A *lot* of the early multiplayer games ran into this almost immediately once they opened to more than traditional RP players. The pattern for so many games is amazingly consistent, and nearly all finally gave up and made trade-offs so intense that then players just created alts to equip themselves.

    So I get it.

    But here with STO, the crafting system is too generous. The OP's proposal would basically destroy the concept of mid vs end game. UR would become the new Common, VR at best blue.

    Very short-sighted. Fortunately I trust the devs to be more circumspect.
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited April 2015
    I don't play games that force me into PvP.

    Lol, I actually like to PvP in this game.

    Different from a lot PvP players, I'm also an accolade hunter and have doffed extensively. Heck, I'm in the DPS channel just because I accidentally got parsed once.

    I can make a lot of EC off doffing in particular if I wanted to given the demand for some doffs, but the way I do it, it takes me at least an hour to set everything up, and then another one to reap the rewards and sell and after doing that for a long time, I got burned out.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    lucho80 wrote: »
    ^
    You speak the truth, but most people treat crafting as their personal way to get traits and items updated instead of a tool to potentially sell stuff. So the average player:

    1) Levels up to level 15 and stops
    2) Gear wise only crafts level II beams or Arc beams because "that is the only thing worth crafting". Maybe plays the sci and eng console lottery to see if they get [ResAll], [PrtG], [ShdS], or [Turn] so sell it.
    3) Crafts superior and experimental beam upgrades to use on him/herself.

    I rarely see people crafting other stuff out there like deflectors, and I don't blame them with all the rep gear out there, but in my case, it was worth it. The ONLY deflector that boosts flow caps up to +40 is only available from crafting. Not sure if there is a +40 grav gens deflector in a rep, but if not, it's also the only way to get one of those. Yes, these are used for "obscure" science build, but some people do look for them.

    My KDF Sci Officer is actually Sci/Shields. My KDF Tac Officer is Engineering/Torpedos. I don't use sets like other. I mean right now I'm running a UR Warp Core that feed 7.5% Engine power to weapon, with the console that feeds 7.5% weapons power to engines. Now... if I could just get a console that loops weapons power to shields...

    And yes I do the crafting and sell it. None of my R&D are level 15 yet. I'd like a more linear system for mods. Hence my suggestion. But, still... the mods now. I start R&D to make a MKII warp/singularity core and go, "Now what weird engine will this produce now?"

    An example that I forgot to add. Combat Impulse Engines MkII [Aux] [DAMP] [Spd]
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  • orion0029orion0029 Member Posts: 1,122 Bug Hunter
    edited April 2015
    It seems to me that the answer is to nerf critD, or more precisely kill the borked mechanics that let it be so abused. Critical hits should be a rare lucky shot, a happy accident, not a core part of your total damage output. The more powerful the critical damage mechanic is, the more rare it needs to be to maintain any form of balance. Right now, it's insane on both ends with critical chance going to absurd levels and no limit on how sky high the extra damage can go. Thus, you get outlandish triple digit DPS numbers that utterly break the game. Either chance or damage need to be capped, maybe even both, and perhaps an inverse relationship could be instituted where higher crit chance reduces your crit damage and vice versa. Critical hits should be rare and strong or common and weak, not both strong and frequent.

    It's time to break the wizard's wands.

    Careful, bud, "dem's fightin' words"

    LOL, seriously, I see your point, I've rigged my ship to gett 22%+ crit chance and I'm not even using any terribly expensive goodies yet... (with CrtD weapons I'd be dealing crazy levels of damage)

    I do feel that the [CrtD] mod does make most other mods look unimpressive, so the easiest way to fix it would be to drop it from +20% to +10% (or even +5%, but that might be a bit much) give-or-take (and adjust AntiProton weapons, and dual heavy cannons accordingly), but there would be SOOOOO many high-dpsers who would scream bloody murder if the developers made such an obvious balance fix. :confused:

    *shrugs* people complain about the game being unbalanced, then complain about the nerfs required to balance it out...

    About the random mods, though, perhaps if you could select a 'target mod' and get a % chance of getting it adjusted by skill, the system could maintain it's semi-random nature while giving players an increased chance of getting the mods they want?
  • februarefebruare Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    At this point, I'd be thrilled if they just got rid of the PVP mods. At least let us opt-out if we are only trying to create PvE weapons.

    That right there would at least increase the chances of you getting what you want. Slightly.

    /Signed

    Complete waste of time and materials. Multiples of pvp and I just throw them out, useless trash.

    Rng nightmares between getting the materials and then watching another useless pvp item be crafted.

    here because I just crafteed, or tried to, 3 phaser arrays for an alt, all 3 are pvp (so worthless and not considered a usable item) and I am again out of materials and disgusted.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Crafting is another grind system. They don't want people to max it and just be able to make what they want and then ignore it.

    You think the market value of the unwanted stuff is bad, think of if you could make whatever you wanted and how that would ruin the market on those items. Top end desired items anyone can make at essentially a whim.

    Don't like the random either, but not sure how they change it without making it even more worthless of a system.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    huskerklg wrote: »
    Crafting is another grind system. They don't want people to max it and just be able to make what they want and then ignore it.

    You think the market value of the unwanted stuff is bad, think of if you could make whatever you wanted and how that would ruin the market on those items. Top end desired items anyone can make at essentially a whim.

    Don't like the random either, but not sure how they change it without making it even more worthless of a system.

    They'd have to balance the mods.

    Somebody out there would need to want [TRIBBLE] as much as somebody wanted [YYY] as much as somebody wanted [ZZZ]...etc, etc, etc.

    edit: Well, not all mods...but enough to stimulate some exchange. If all were balanced, then they'd lose out on the investment angle they want, yeah? But as it stands, there's just a wee bit too much vendor trash being generated.
  • helgmornhelgmorn Member Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Whilst I agree with most of the good ideas through this thread, and also agree that massive amounts of wasted stuff gets crafted, I do not wish for it to change, at least not yet.

    I say this, because due to the imbalance of the [MOD] system and the need to craft hundreds of items to get the correct VR [MOD'S], and then the lottery run of trying for UR [MOD] that doesn't suck, means that when it does go right it becomes very valuable!

    No matter how many times I do it, I always make a profit on this. I buy Mats from exchange, I buy Upgrades and Quality improvements from exchange, I craft and sell the UR items with the best [MOD'S] and make EC that way.

    Personally, for my own ships, I typically don't bother with Uber Gear, I run CritDx2/3 and Pen, Thrust, Over, Sprd, CrtH and Acc in whatever combination comes.

    Because of this, I make a great profit, get really decent gear in the process quite easily and bar the Di-lithium, all my Kit and Materials and Upgrade modules are essentially free!

    Its only MIN/MAXer's that need stuff like CritDx3/4 mixed with possibly a Pen if its x3 (Beams Cannon example)

    I rely on the peeps that have heard this is the best stuff and try to get it, most of which will never be able to build a true MIN/MAX build to make it worth it due to the sheer costs involved in doing so, but hey, I profit from it!

    Without killing yourself and spending fortunes, using the crafting system allows me to fund and have 7 Toons in the 25-30K Dps range kitted out nicely and competitive and able to tackle literally anything in the game on Elite with a good team, so I don't let anyone down.

    Who needs more than that?

    If there was change though, it would for me be a 3x buff on DMG and a complete drop of PvP or X5-10 improvement on it to possibly see if it kick-starts PvP again for a few weeks lol (Profit in mind again lol)

    My Favorite weapon mods personally for my style and level of Build versus Cost versus Effectiveness is CritDx2, CritH, Pen/Acc/Over/Sprd/ however it rolls :)
  • olliereportolliereport Member Posts: 721
    edited May 2015
    I've changed my tune

    after trying to use the system, it's a bit too horribly painful

    some part of the randomness could be mitigated, possibly with crafting catalysts or something
  • voivodjevoivodje Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If it would be altered, there would be a serious imbalance.
    Everyone running 3x whatever is so... boring...
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    They'd have to balance the mods.

    Somebody out there would need to want [TRIBBLE] as much as somebody wanted [YYY] as much as somebody wanted [ZZZ]...etc, etc, etc.

    edit: Well, not all mods...but enough to stimulate some exchange. If all were balanced, then they'd lose out on the investment angle they want, yeah? But as it stands, there's just a wee bit too much vendor trash being generated.
    My thought was to make it so you have to craft the items you need to guarantee certain mods. :P

    Do I need to give an example of the potential costs here? :D
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  • cypherouscypherous Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    tk79 wrote: »
    It's supposed to be inefficient, so you spend more and more until you have to use real cash to buy more resources.

    Working as intended in Cryptic's eyes.

    Pretty much this, its supposed to be a sink, there would really be no market for these items if everyone could craft exactly what they wanted all of the time
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  • hsiv31hsiv31 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    tk79 wrote: »
    It's supposed to be inefficient, so you spend more and more until you have to use real cash to buy more resources.

    Working as intended in Cryptic's eyes.

    Indeed, and spend so much real money that the game eventually is so bogged down by Pay To Win, that it becomes long term playable only for millionaires...
  • helgmornhelgmorn Member Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    hsiv31 wrote: »
    Indeed, and spend so much real money that the game eventually is so bogged down by Pay To Win, that it becomes long term playable only for millionaires...

    ??

    How exactly did you come to this conclusion?

    You need spend literally no real money whatsoever to get whatever you want in this Game, show me another F2P like STO, I dare you!

    It seems to me that people with this outlook are simply not patient people at all, or cant plan!

    I get what I want out of Crafting the way it is, Takes less than 2 weeks to kit up a toon with the crafted pieces I want, 20 days to complete Reputations, and with plenty toons, I clear 56000 Di-Li a Day, plenty to upgrade.

    So in 20 Days, I have 1120000 Di-Li, all reps and decent gear from crafting.

    I dont go for CrtDx3, I sell those, and easily in that 20 days make 15Million Profit from kitting out 1 Toon!

    I dont play hours on end, about 14/16 hrs a week, mostly between 10pm to 1pm after work, kids, wife, eating, dishes and the place called RL!


    To me, this kind of whining about P2W and wales is simply

    1) Jealousy for not having it yourself
    2) Not knowing how to play as intended!
  • dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Original thread

    So right now we have two type of randomness in R&D one for rarity (with which we have some dose of influence) and [mod] (with which we can't do anything), and that dear Cryptic is too much randomness for one thing.

    I thought about some improvements which would allow players to choose what [mod] they want to obtain by paying for them with additional time, R&D slots and doffs. All R&D projects would be able to use up to 4 doff.

    1st doff will work as now, so its (and only its) rarity will have influence at item rarity chance. And this one doff is necessary to start project. All others are optional.

    Using 2nd doff will give player option to choose what first [mod] will the item get if rarity roll came with uncommon or higher. It will require uncommon or higher doff (same type as 1st doff), second R&D projects slot and additional 20% to project completion time.

    Using 3rd doff will give player option to choose what second [mod] will the item get if rarity roll came with rare or higher. It will require rare or higher doff (same type as 1st doff), third R&D projects slot and additional 20% to project completion time (summed up with the addition from second doff).

    Using 4th doff will give player option to choose what thierd [mod] will the item get if rarity roll came with very rare. It will require v.rare or higher doff (same type as 1st doff), fourth R&D projects slot and additional 20% to project completion time (summed up with the addition from previous two doffs).

    So use one doff and one project slot and go faster with full randomness or pay additional "resources" like more doffs, time and projects slots to get rid of [mod] randomness. There will still be rarity randomness as it should be, the better your skill is the better items will you get.

    That way crafting custom 3x[mod] item will take 60% more time and 4 R&D project slots, which means that you could only craft one such item at the time. Additional time and ability to make only one custom item at the time should protect the market from overflood.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    They'd have to balance the mods.

    Somebody out there would need to want [TRIBBLE] as much as somebody wanted [YYY] as much as somebody wanted [ZZZ]...etc, etc, etc.

    Sadly this will result in either huge power creep or nerfs. They increase other mods to the level of Crit and CritD you have power creep. If they lower Crit and CritD down to the level of the rest, its a huge nerf.


    Still think people being able to pick exactly what they want is going make a mess also though. Just not sure which is worse, the resulting mess or the random system.


    What if there was a system like a Boost that increased the chance of a certain result significantly. I don't mean 5-10%, I'm talking 30-60%. Suspect taking that on might be easier to do.


    Then they could tweek the percentages to make sure the problems of over abundance and devaluation don't occur, while still keeping some random element.

    Couple that with balancing would solve a lot.
  • voivodjevoivodje Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Well, like I said before, we can't have everyone running around with [whatever]x3.
    So, it's working an intended.
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    deokkent wrote: »
    They could make the requirements to obtain more valuable mods expensive, such as playing elite content to earn elite materials required to craft specific mods combined with huge dilithium sinks. There problem solved.

    They kind of already have, as in running elite nets you better chances of mats + experimental thing a mabobs and, crafting mass amounts of throw aways till you get what you want + upgrade costs, is the huge dilithium sink.

    So, in a way, it is already a reality!
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