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birzarkbirzark Member Posts: 634 Arc User
There are many players myself included that are bothered by the Surgical Strikes Nerf. I just am curious how it affected everyone's build, I lost about 1/3 of my DPS considering I built the ship around that ability. How much did it affect you?
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  • kamagam31kamagam31 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Same here I lost also 1/3 of damage but in my case I was not using T6 ship for the last two weeks.
    I think I lost damage because the AMP core got nerfed.

    I parsed a week ago and this weekend it is 8k less dps on ISA
  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,849 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I have a sneaking suspicion that surgical strike is going to be in the hands of future NPC's and that the previous version woulda sucked for those in PVE not familiar with being on the wrong side of that ability.Its still gonna suck, but now its less.

    From what I read, even tho there was a slight nerf, its still better than its other single targer counterparts

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  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    birzark wrote: »
    There are many players myself included that are bothered by the Surgical Strikes Nerf. I just am curious how it affected everyone's build, I lost about 1/3 of my DPS considering I built the ship around that ability. How much did it affect you?

    I'm not so sure why you'd be bothered by it. It was a crutch... a nice crutch to be sure... but a crutch... and it was most certainly overperfoming and causing unbalance in both PvE and PvP.

    It's a nice skill... still is... but it's much better balanced now... and shouldn't have been needed to accomplish any content in this game.
  • birzarkbirzark Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    I'm not so sure why you'd be bothered by it. It was a crutch... a nice crutch to be sure... but a crutch... and it was most certainly overperfoming and causing unbalance in both PvE and PvP.

    It's a nice skill... still is... but it's much better balanced now... and shouldn't have been needed to accomplish any content in this game.

    I didn't think it was over performing in PVE, also i was bothered by it because i built my ship around that ability. I prefer using Surgical Strikes over FAW, because I didn't like targeting every ship around me. Also what really bothers me is this quote before the change from Borticus
    I have mentioned in another thread - getting Surgical Strikes to behave differently in PvP is not possible how it's currently built. Everything in the current power is a self-enhancing effect, and does not evaluate the target at all, so adding a step to check if the target is Player or NPC cannot currently be done. Adding such evaluation would require a substantial rebuild of the ability.

    The original balance point of all 3 ranks of SS was based around mid-geared players using SS vs. FAW (1 target) vs CRF. In those initial balance passes, SS underperformed, but we knew that a well-geared and well-played player would cause the pendulum to swing the other way. We didn't fully anticipate just how far it would swing.

    A safer, long-term solution for this ability, may be to install hard-caps on CritD when used in PvP. Heck, maybe ALL PvP should have a CrtD cap...

    To directly answer the original question - SS is working as intended, as designed. But it is scaling more aggressively than anticipated in the hands of exceptional players.

    We don't have a solution just yet, but its on our radar of issues we're hoping to tackle. Ideally, we'll find a way to tune the ability only where it is most problematic - PvP - and leave it's PvE functionality as untouched as possible.

    He tuned the ability in favor of 1 vs 1 while PVE got hit very hard. 1/3 of my total DPS lost is a BIG difference. Then he talks about the changes to SS on Red Shirt Notes:
    In regards to the changes to Surgical Strikes:

    We arrived at these figures after a LOT of internal testing. Parsing using different weapon types, comparing to multiple different firing modes, in many various different weapon configurations.

    In all of the tests we performed, even after the above changes, Surgical Strikes reliably outperformed every combination of Weapon Type and Firing Mode we tried, once the player had a reasonable amount of +CritH and +CritD.

    Those "reasonable amounts" by the way were 15% Crit Chance, and +200 Crit Severity. Values reasonably obtained by many players, and hilarious outstripped by our high-end performers.

    So, despite the reductions contained in these Patch Notes, we feel the ability is still desirable by players properly geared to get the most out of it. We encourage anyone interested in how this affects their performance to copy over to Redshirt and try it out for themselves. Your feedback is welcome. (Parses of before/after performance would be even better!)

    i would love to know without being a romulan how do you get to 200 crit severity? I think if i maxed everything out(too resource heavy for my taste) but if i did i think i would get to maybe 170ish certainly not 200.

    I just wish it was handled better when they balanced it.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    birzark wrote: »
    i would love to know without being a romulan how do you get to 200 crit severity? I think if i maxed everything out(too resource heavy for my taste) but if i did i think i would get to maybe 170ish certainly not 200.

    - Char base: 50
    - maxed skill tree: ~25*
    - Bio Neural MK14 Epic: 25
    - Borg: ~10
    - Tachio: ~ 10
    - 2 sup. operatives: 10
    - AP Crit D x 4: 100*

    ->> 230 on a fed (and thats not even considered a thrid operative on some ships, DHCs or the 3 piece dyson weapons set)

    *local crit d mods so not displayed on ship stats

    It’s not that hard to pull fed toons with 25% crit H under upper mentioned D conditions. If you add AP Alpha, flanking as well as SS3 one comes close to 75% critical chance. After the nerf one still crits at least 2 out of 3 times under these conditions and deals more than 3 times of the regular dmg then.

    Two seasons ago a ground kit module granting similar absurd numbers was swiftly adjusted. I think SS3 comes out of the nerf hammer still pretty nice.
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  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    birzark wrote: »
    There are many players myself included that are bothered by the Surgical Strikes Nerf. I just am curious how it affected everyone's build, I lost about 1/3 of my DPS considering I built the ship around that ability. How much did it affect you?

    If one ability is good for 1/3 of the DPS of an entire ship, then that ability is ridiculously OP. I've never used this thing but I'm glad they nerf OP stuff.
  • psych2lpsych2l Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I'd say I lost about 15-20k. The annoying thing for me is it takes longer to farm content for spec points using ss3 compared to faw3, which even though is an aoe ability is also one rank lower than it's ss counterpart. That aoe vs single damage comparison Bort used to justify the change somewhat annoys me since it conveniently ignores the greater damage potential of FAW 3 over Torpedo Spread III. Both are designed to be area of affect abilities however one outshines the other by far. Let's see Bort try to wave his hands around that one lol
  • myko9myko9 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    risian4 wrote: »
    If one ability is good for 1/3 of the DPS of an entire ship, then that ability is ridiculously OP. I've never used this thing but I'm glad they nerf OP stuff.

    Don't look at how much BFAW contributes then...
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    myko9 wrote: »
    Don't look at how much BFAW contributes then...

    He actually stated it wrong. According to the OP, the change cost him 1/3 of his damage output. The nerf didn't remove the entire skill from the game, it just lowered its strength a bit. That cost him 1/3. But at the same time, borticus stated this:
    In regards to the changes to Surgical Strikes:

    We arrived at these figures after a LOT of internal testing. Parsing using different weapon types, comparing to multiple different firing modes, in many various different weapon configurations.

    In all of the tests we performed, even after the above changes, Surgical Strikes reliably outperformed every combination of Weapon Type and Firing Mode we tried, once the player had a reasonable amount of +CritH and +CritD.u
    Whaver his original damage was, it must have been beyond what BFAW gave anyone.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • redheadguyredheadguy Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    kamagam31 wrote: »
    Same here I lost also 1/3 of damage but in my case I was not using T6 ship for the last two weeks.
    I think I lost damage because the AMP core got nerfed.

    I parsed a week ago and this weekend it is 8k less dps on ISA

    AMP core? Do you mean the AMP modifier for warp/singularity cores?
    [SIGPIC]

    [/SIGPIC]
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    psych2l wrote: »
    I'd say I lost about 15-20k. The annoying thing for me is it takes longer to farm content for spec points using ss3 compared to faw3, which even though is an aoe ability is also one rank lower than it's ss counterpart. That aoe vs single damage comparison Bort used to justify the change somewhat annoys me since it conveniently ignores the greater damage potential of FAW 3 over Torpedo Spread III. Both are designed to be area of affect abilities however one outshines the other by far. Let's see Bort try to wave his hands around that one lol

    Corbin is the most qualified to say on this due to his toon being the highest DPS currently an SS ability achieved.

    In my opinion, nerfing an ability just because a few whiny PvPers say so is not good at the expense of PvE users. Never was SS OP in PvE since you cannot one shot tac cubes with 100kish per shot.

    Let the minority PvP whiners adapt for change. Imagine if another game nerfed marauders just because a few players got pawned in their 12 battlecruisers by 1 marauder. rather than adapting and bringing counters or thinking new ways to counter, they whine to dev for a nerf. If they dont get what they want, they discourage the community and destroy the community and blame the game mechanics for it.

    The cycle of whining and nerfing has got to stop.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    paxdawn wrote: »
    Corbin is the most qualified to say on this due to his toon being the highest DPS currently an SS ability achieved.

    In my opinion, nerfing an ability just because a few whiny PvPers say so is not good at the expense of PvE users. Never was SS OP in PvE since you cannot one shot tac cubes with 100kish per shot.

    Let the minority PvP whiners adapt for change. Imagine if another game nerfed marauders just because a few players got pawned in their 12 battlecruisers by 1 marauder. rather than adapting and bringing counters or thinking new ways to counter, they whine to dev for a nerf. If they dont get what they want, they discourage the community and destroy the community and blame the game mechanics for it.

    The cycle of whining and nerfing has got to stop.

    Forget PVP. Imagine it doesn'T exist, and that no PVP player ever complained about anything, because they all don't exist in STO, since STO has no PvP.


    Now imagine a world where you have the choice between Cannon Rapid Fire or Beam Fire At Will or Surgical Strike, and Surgical Strike always yields more DPS.

    Now imagine you had to choose between two ships - one ship has access to all 3, the other ship has only access to BFAW and CRF.

    You realize that the second ship is forever disadvantages. And now imagine that the second ship is your favourite ship.

    That's why things need to be balanced.


    How many Galaxy Retrofit threads exist that complain that the Galaxy is the weakest of the Cruisers? You know why that is? Because balance problems were not fixed, and some ships have access to better skills than others.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • birzarkbirzark Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Forget PVP. Imagine it doesn'T exist, and that no PVP player ever complained about anything, because they all don't exist in STO, since STO has no PvP.


    Now imagine a world where you have the choice between Cannon Rapid Fire or Beam Fire At Will or Surgical Strike, and Surgical Strike always yields more DPS.

    Now imagine you had to choose between two ships - one ship has access to all 3, the other ship has only access to BFAW and CRF.

    You realize that the second ship is forever disadvantages. And now imagine that the second ship is your favourite ship.

    That's why things need to be balanced.


    How many Galaxy Retrofit threads exist that complain that the Galaxy is the weakest of the Cruisers? You know why that is? Because balance problems were not fixed, and some ships have access to better skills than others.

    Its not fair to compare Surgical Strikes to Fire at Will because the SS3 is a Comm slot ability and FAW3 is a LTC slot ability. Also i understand the balance because when NPC's gain the ability, but even just dropping the accuracy or accuracy and critH, fine. But they did that AND dropped the damage which is over kill in my opinion.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    birzark wrote: »
    Its not fair to compare Surgical Strikes to Fire at Will because the SS3 is a Comm slot ability and FAW3 is a LTC slot ability. Also i understand the balance because when NPC's gain the ability, but even just dropping the accuracy or accuracy and critH, fine. But they did that AND dropped the damage which is over kill in my opinion.
    So what? That still leaves Cannon Rapid Fire, and there is also Surgical Strikes I that occupies the same slot as BFAW.

    They dropped the values to something where the damage parsed reasonable compared to the alternatives.

    And my fundamental point is not about specific values. That's just haggling over the price. The fundamental thing that every single player has to accept is that balance matters even in a PvE only game, even if the ability is only available to players. So an ability that's too good? It gets nerfed. No crying, whining or complaining, no accusations of greed, bait & switch, no shifting the blame to players, none of that, will change that.
    If you can't accept that, you will just have to live with disappointment.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    paxdawn wrote: »
    Let the minority PvP whiners adapt for change.

    There was no good counter except damage reflection or speeding away. It was like CRF on steroids.
  • voivodjevoivodje Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    I'm not so sure why you'd be bothered by it. It was a crutch... a nice crutch to be sure... but a crutch... and it was most certainly overperfoming and causing unbalance in both PvE and PvP.

    It's a nice skill... still is... but it's much better balanced now... and shouldn't have been needed to accomplish any content in this game.
    I fully agree with Lady.
    NO skill/weaopn/other item should be "needed" to go and play whatever mission/PvP field.
    That there was a thing like SS only resulted in a big disadvantage for those not using it.
    This nerf was clearly justifiable, IMHO.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited March 2015

    Whaver his original damage was, it must have been beyond what BFAW gave anyone.

    I wouldnt give to much credibility to their testing. They have shown one after another that their testing techniques are (usually) far from the actual, realistic result.

    I guess they fired from 9.99km with weapon power set to 25 against a single target or something like that.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,892 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    I'm not so sure why you'd be bothered by it. It was a crutch... a nice crutch to be sure... but a crutch... and it was most certainly overperfoming and causing unbalance in both PvE and PvP.

    It's a nice skill... still is... but it's much better balanced now... and shouldn't have been needed to accomplish any content in this game.

    Well what do you expect? People like big numbers...they're going to be upset with any nerf to their dps no matter what reason or how cheesey it is...Plasma Doping and the AMP were both bugs people were taking advantage of...doesn't matter if they were bugs...people used them to get bigger numbers and now they're upset.

    SS3 was just outrageous...another example where they're upset...getting bigger numbers seems to be the only purpose in the game for them...silly I know but to each is own I guess.
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
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  • atlmyklatlmykl Member Posts: 305 Arc User1
    edited March 2015
    paxdawn wrote: »
    Corbin is the most qualified to say on this due to his toon being the highest DPS currently an SS ability achieved.

    In my opinion, nerfing an ability just because a few whiny PvPers say so is not good at the expense of PvE users. Never was SS OP in PvE since you cannot one shot tac cubes with 100kish per shot.

    Let the minority PvP whiners adapt for change. Imagine if another game nerfed marauders just because a few players got pawned in their 12 battlecruisers by 1 marauder. rather than adapting and bringing counters or thinking new ways to counter, they whine to dev for a nerf. If they dont get what they want, they discourage the community and destroy the community and blame the game mechanics for it.

    The cycle of whining and nerfing has got to stop.

    So you prefer a "Iwin" crutch that was far and beyond any other single damage boss skill in the game? Please explain why you need a skill to compete with competent players who are doing just fine without using such a grossly out of balance skill. Do they need to add a difficulty level below easy for you?
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I myself vouched for this change, back before it was being considered.

    When I started noticing SS1 being = to my BFAW2, than to me there is an issue.

    I mean, how can a skill granting a x2-x2.5 dmg boost + 20%-40% [acc][crth], not be seen as pretty OPing?

    And, I don't even play PVP at all to notice this!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,987 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Just like I handle all other nerfs and things repulsive in STO,

    I no longer use and avoid them,

    Thus invalidating their hard work as a "reward" for their actions.
  • chilleechillee Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    voivodje wrote: »
    I fully agree with Lady.
    NO skill/weaopn/other item should be "needed" to go and play whatever mission/PvP field.
    That there was a thing like SS only resulted in a big disadvantage for those not using it.
    This nerf was clearly justifiable, IMHO.

    Completely concur. Besides, if it really accounts for 1/ of your total DPS, you should have known in the back of your mind this wasn't going to last.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kamagam31kamagam31 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    redheadguy wrote: »
    AMP core? Do you mean the AMP modifier for warp/singularity cores?

    Yes I mean the AMP mod for the Spire cores. I was talking with someone from the dps channel and he told me he actually had an damage increase after that nerf/fix, opposite to my experience but his core is epic in rarity mine not. Mine has no upgrades.
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