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Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

Delta Recruitment Screwy Causality

alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
edited March 2015 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
The premise of DRec is that everybody's ramping up their recruitment effort to fight the Iconians...

So the story from one Starfleet recruit's point of view might be:
Starfleet: Join up and fight the Iconians in 2410!
Character: Okay.
Character: *Goes through the Academy*
Klingons: MUAH-AH-AH! We'll ambush your ship and kill your Captain, leaving you in command!
Character: Hey! I thought we were allies! *Defeats Klingons*
Starfleet Command: Well done! Now fight in the Klingon War!
Character: But it was over when I was recruited! *Uncovers undine impersonator*
Starfleet Command: OMG, undine in the Alpha Quadrant!
Character: Well, yeah.

*fast forward*

Starfleet Command: OMG there's evidence the iconians are involved!
Character: Yeah, that's why you recruited me, remember?
Calendar: Yay, 2409 is over! Welcome to 2410!
Character: But I was in the Academy until 2414!
Tuvok: OMG this gateway leads to the Delta Quadrant!
Character: *grumble grumble "Delta Recruitment" grumble*

Sigh... time travel.
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Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,164 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Tovan Khev: Send X back in Time.
    Character 1 to 2: Yeah!!! go play the Romulan Tutorial!
    Tovan Khev 2: Hello.
    Character 2: ****
    zx2t8tuj4i10.png
    Thank you for the Typhoon!
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Little thing called suspension of disbelief...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    Little thing called suspension of disbelief...

    Yeah but I kinda have to agree with the OP... Unless all these new toons are going to be people who were sent back in time to that exact moment to bolster fleet admiral numbers in the present... Although even that doesn't really work because the storyline just doesn't support that.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    edited March 2015
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Tovan Khev: Send X back in Time.
    Character 1 to 2: Yeah!!! go play the Romulan Tutorial!
    Tovan Khev 2: Hello.
    Character 2: ****

    well... that rules out a romulan character for me....
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo1_400.gif
    tacofangs wrote: »
    STO isn't canon, and neither are any of the books.
  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The whole concept that STO existed in a year was always kind of screwy. Cadet to Admiral in a year, enough ship advancements in a year that not only were the ships that you started the year with totally invalidated, but ships that were created in 2409 were already obsolete... in 2409.

    So the idea that this whole game took only a year to do was always incredibally stupid and idiotic and never made sense... to anyone except the devs who seemed to think it was a good idea.

    Now we've got an even bigger issue. We are in 2410 at the end of the game. So if you're trying to do a story where any recruit is recruited in 2409 they can't know what's going on in 2410. So now you go to stick in the the most horrible Star Trek concept to date to try and fix TRIBBLE "time travel".

    But the bigger question is, if every Captain in STO was recruited in 2409, why is it that only "new Captains" only were recruited in 2409 and others weren't, even though they've been around for a lot longer then "new Captains".

    So the whole thing is simply due to the fact that STO was poorly written from the beginning (which a lot of us mentioned in Beta that the whole 2409 was going to come back and bite them in the TRIBBLE)... and since Cryptic in typical Cryptic fashion didn't listen to us, 5 years later here we are with a fubared recruitment drive that makes even less sense.
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    All this is where I said suspension of disbelief plays a part... Ignore the dates, play the story arcs through as if they are the entire extent of your character's career over several years, or even decades if RP is something which concerns you... Ignoring the dates involved, it all still flows perfectly well...

    Unfortunately, when things are 'set in stone' like they are presently, you will always encounter continuity errors, and to be blunt, if Cryptic did not update content, people would vilify them for being lazy and not keeping the game up to date...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    alexmakepeace wrote: »
    The premise of DRec is that everybody's ramping up their recruitment effort to fight the Iconians...

    So the story from one Starfleet recruit's point of view might be:
    Starfleet: Join up and fight the Iconians in 2410!
    Character: Okay.
    Character: *Goes through the Academy*
    Klingons: MUAH-AH-AH! We'll ambush your ship and kill your Captain, leaving you in command!
    Character: Hey! I thought we were allies! *Defeats Klingons*
    Starfleet Command: Well done! Now fight in the Klingon War!
    Character: But it was over when I was recruited! *Uncovers undine impersonator*
    Starfleet Command: OMG, undine in the Alpha Quadrant!
    Character: Well, yeah.

    *fast forward*

    Starfleet Command: OMG there's evidence the iconians are involved!
    Character: Yeah, that's why you recruited me, remember?
    Calendar: Yay, 2409 is over! Welcome to 2410!
    Character: But I was in the Academy until 2414!
    Tuvok: OMG this gateway leads to the Delta Quadrant!
    Character: *grumble grumble "Delta Recruitment" grumble*

    Sigh... time travel.

    You know, it doesnt say anywhere you HAVE to do this. Not sure why people are complaining. *prepaires new KDF Allied Rom dil mule*
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
  • prierinprierin Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?

    It's kind of like being wiht a phone company for years. You're a good, loyal customer, always pay your bills, never really complain. Then they come out and say "HEY NEW CUSTOMERS! Get X for half the $!! Sign up now!"

    You're like "Hey, I've been with you for years and already pay more for X... I'd like that half rate, plox"

    "We're sorry - that's for new customers only"

    ".... seriously? You're saying I have to stop my contract with you and renew just to get this rate?"

    "Yeah, but if you break your contract you'll be penalized..."

    "."


    Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame
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  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?

    It's kind of like being wiht a phone company for years. You're a good, loyal customer, always pay your bills, never really complain. Then they come out and say "HEY NEW CUSTOMERS! Get X for half the $!! Sign up now!"

    You're like "Hey, I've been with you for years and already pay more for X... I'd like that half rate, plox"

    "We're sorry - that's for new customers only"

    ".... seriously? You're saying I have to stop my contract with you and renew just to get this rate?"

    "Yeah, but if you break your contract you'll be penalized..."

    "."


    Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame

    Could have something to do with the coding. Its easier to put something into a line of code while making it (along with all the new perks) than inserting it into a line of code already existing. Thats where you get bugs and glitches, adding and changing code.

    Take it from someone thats done computer programming, its not easy and its not fun.

    Unless you are a hacker ;)
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?

    Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame

    If I read the announcement correctly, existing characters will receive increased XP gain each week, should those players playing Delta Recruits reach their weekly goals, so they're not being entirely left out...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    All this is where I said suspension of disbelief plays a part... Ignore the dates, play the story arcs through as if they are the entire extent of your character's career over several years, or even decades if RP is something which concerns you... Ignoring the dates involved, it all still flows perfectly well...

    Unfortunately, when things are 'set in stone' like they are presently, you will always encounter continuity errors, and to be blunt, if Cryptic did not update content, people would vilify them for being lazy and not keeping the game up to date...
    Yeah, suspension of disbelief is a wonderful thing, but it can be fragile, and its most important aspect is internal consistency. Small errors take you out of the story every now and then, but then you forget about them. But the entire premise of DRec doesn't make sense.
    rgzarcher wrote: »
    You know, it doesnt say anywhere you HAVE to do this. Not sure why people are complaining. *prepaires new KDF Allied Rom dil mule*
    Not complaining so much about the feature as the weird lore behind it. I'll certainly be creating a new toon and playing it at least through the breen arc. I'm even working up a cool backstory for him, but it requires that I use my own headcanon to basically ignore large chunks of the lore that has been set before me because it doesn't make sense.

    It's not that I'm unhappy that they're doing DRec, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't make sense. Who knows, maybe the devs can figure a way to make it actually make sense.
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?
    -snip-
    I understand your frustration, but that's not the point of this thread. This thread is about the weird lore behind it. There are other threads about the implications of DRec at the player-level.
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?

    It's kind of like being wiht a phone company for years. You're a good, loyal customer, always pay your bills, never really complain. Then they come out and say "HEY NEW CUSTOMERS! Get X for half the $!! Sign up now!"

    You're like "Hey, I've been with you for years and already pay more for X... I'd like that half rate, plox"

    "We're sorry - that's for new customers only"

    ".... seriously? You're saying I have to stop my contract with you and renew just to get this rate?"

    "Yeah, but if you break your contract you'll be penalized..."

    "."


    Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame


    Umm phone companies do this all the time.

    And you will still get a benefit even if you do t create a new character, it will just only last for the event.



    I would suggest we all remember while we are speculating about how everything is now doomed that we really only know the generalities.


    Perhaps we should Wait till we see what the rewards actually ate and how it will work before pronouncing our old characters obsolete. Hell the rewards might not even be useful past leveling.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

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  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    alexmakepeace wrote: »
    Yeah, suspension of disbelief is a wonderful thing, but it can be fragile, and its most important aspect is internal consistency. Small errors take you out of the story every now and then, but then you forget about them. But the entire premise of DRec doesn't make sense.

    But that's exactly my point, if you ignore the fixed date, and just follow the episodes, the story holds together just fine...

    Your character goes from the hostilities presented between the Federation and Klingon empire in the tutorial, right upto the combined defense of ESD and Qo'nos, which foments the cease-fire...

    Once suspension of disbelief is brought into play on this one point (the year in question), the rest is pretty solid...

    How would you propose Cryptic get around this issue, without segregating players based on their level? Not to mention forcing people into a career that spans years, if not decades, as it would in reality, will undoubtedly lead to complaints from people who feel this 'breaks their immersion' as it contravenes their RP 'head canon' for their character's progress...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You know lore wise it doesn't say what time frame the recruitment is in.

    What if they are really recruiting future you to go recruit past you.

    I mean its only 2410 once you start the delta arc. So a new character always starts in 2409, but if you from the future contacted you in the past to recruit you then you would obviously know about some future events and could work toward their resolution in the present.

    Really just a copy paste of the temporal cold war from enterprise.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?

    Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame

    Because simply put, my five year old character with all Reputation maxed out, C-Store T6 ships, MKXIV gear and quite a bit of my specilizations maxed out is literally so far advanced of any of my alts let alone any new player coming up it isn't even funny, and I'm not even bothering trying to min/max.

    So this is Cryptic's way of trying to even the playing field between the players and characters who have been around for years and those trying to raise themselves up. Imagine you're a new player, get recruited into a fleet, and get to play with my character. I can literally sit in the middle of advanced patrols and my shields won't get scratched... while the new player is being frustrated by the mind-numbing never ending hit points on some of the ships. Now imagine the new player wanting to get some of that fancy Delta Rep gear and realizing they can't even get close to competing to get a battery or two... or even if they can how long it's going to take just to grind up the rep on ONE rep.

    It's just a balance issue trying to close the gap. Lets be honest if you've been around for a while... you don't need this... at all... unless you've been slacking... and if you haven't and can honestly use it... it's not that big of a deal to simply reroll and redo and relevel.
  • alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    How would you propose Cryptic get around this issue, without segregating players based on their level?
    Well, now that you've rightly pointed out that everything holds together (as well as it did before, anyway) if you brush the date under the carpet, I would propose that Cryptic does exactly that. Disassociate the recruitment drive from anything to do with the Delta Quadrant or Iconians and just treat it as a promotion without any particular in-game justification. All the causality issues resolve themselves.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?
    So that everyone starts on equal ground. So that new players are not disheartened by the fact that everyone else they encounter may have a 5 year advantage upon them.

    If you already got your maxed out fleet starbase, maxed out reputations, lots of Dilithium, crafting, specialization points and all that - you don't need "extra". The aim is recruiting new players (or lapsed players), and allow them a bit of a head-start so that it doesn't seem that daunting to start anew in this game.

    Doing all that for an already existing characters would be counter-productive.
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  • chiyoumikuchiyoumiku Member Posts: 1,028 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?

    It's kind of like being wiht a phone company for years. You're a good, loyal customer, always pay your bills, never really complain. Then they come out and say "HEY NEW CUSTOMERS! Get X for half the $!! Sign up now!"

    You're like "Hey, I've been with you for years and already pay more for X... I'd like that half rate, plox"

    "We're sorry - that's for new customers only"

    ".... seriously? You're saying I have to stop my contract with you and renew just to get this rate?"

    "Yeah, but if you break your contract you'll be penalized..."

    "."


    Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame


    Overall it's about getting new customers. An incentive for that. All phone companies offer deals like this to entice new customers that current ones don't get. I'lll roll a new toon for the smeg of it.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    alexmakepeace wrote: »
    Well, now that you've rightly pointed out that everything holds together (as well as it did before, anyway) if you brush the date under the carpet, I would propose that Cryptic does exactly that. Disassociate the recruitment drive from anything to do with the Delta Quadrant or Iconians and just treat it as a promotion without any particular in-game justification. All the causality issues resolve themselves.
    Actually.... it makes perfect sense really. In the future, the Delta Alliance gets defeated by the Iconians. So temporal agents go back in time to bolster the recruits of the past and prevent that future. Kinda like the situation with Archer and Daniels.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • cecil08cecil08 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Yeah, Cryptic's timeline makes no sense. My head canon is that it's actually 2415 at this point and even that is probably not enough time passing but oh well.

    As for how this recruitment will work, I'm reserving judgement until I see more info.
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this?

    It's kind of like being wiht a phone company for years. You're a good, loyal customer, always pay your bills, never really complain. Then they come out and say "HEY NEW CUSTOMERS! Get X for half the $!! Sign up now!"

    You're like "Hey, I've been with you for years and already pay more for X... I'd like that half rate, plox"

    "We're sorry - that's for new customers only"

    ".... seriously? You're saying I have to stop my contract with you and renew just to get this rate?"

    "Yeah, but if you break your contract you'll be penalized..."

    "."


    Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame

    but phone companies and others like tv and intenet companies do that stuff all the time and no you cant close your account and open a new one to get the benefit cos then you would be a returning customer not a new one.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,896 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    alexmakepeace wrote: »
    The premise of DRec is that everybody's ramping up their recruitment effort to fight the Iconians...

    So the story from one Starfleet recruit's point of view might be:
    Starfleet: Join up and fight the Iconians in 2410!
    Character: Okay.
    Character: *Goes through the Academy*
    Klingons: MUAH-AH-AH! We'll ambush your ship and kill your Captain, leaving you in command!
    Character: Hey! I thought we were allies! *Defeats Klingons*
    Starfleet Command: Well done! Now fight in the Klingon War!
    Character: But it was over when I was recruited! *Uncovers undine impersonator*
    Starfleet Command: OMG, undine in the Alpha Quadrant!
    Character: Well, yeah.

    *fast forward*

    Starfleet Command: OMG there's evidence the iconians are involved!
    Character: Yeah, that's why you recruited me, remember?
    Calendar: Yay, 2409 is over! Welcome to 2410!
    Character: But I was in the Academy until 2414!
    Tuvok: OMG this gateway leads to the Delta Quadrant!
    Character: *grumble grumble "Delta Recruitment" grumble*

    Sigh... time travel.

    Lets see...so they're supposed to change the whole leveling story just so you can level a character? In 2409 the Klingons were at war with the Federation.

    "A mysterious benefactor, an experienced captain traveling back in time, will contact all Delta Recruits" Well...I'd like to know where you got that you were recruited in the future from that statement?
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  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    edited March 2015
    wibbly wobbly timey whimey


    nuff said
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo1_400.gif
    tacofangs wrote: »
    STO isn't canon, and neither are any of the books.
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    alexmakepeace wrote: »
    Well, now that you've rightly pointed out that everything holds together (as well as it did before, anyway) if you brush the date under the carpet, I would propose that Cryptic does exactly that. Disassociate the recruitment drive from anything to do with the Delta Quadrant or Iconians and just treat it as a promotion without any particular in-game justification. All the causality issues resolve themselves.

    It's a special promotion that lasts about a month and a half... I would not expect Cryptic to completely restructure the entire game just for this and it only makes sense to tie it into the current story arc...

    Expecting this, solely due to the Delta Recruits promotion and not just a broad observation, is somewhat unreasonable as I see it...
    markhawkman wrote: »
    Actually.... it makes perfect sense really. In the future, the Delta Alliance gets defeated by the Iconians. So temporal agents go back in time to bolster the recruits of the past and prevent that future. Kinda like the situation with Archer and Daniels.

    I had forgotten the mention of time-travel, so you're right, there's Cryptic's way out of redoing everything to address continuity errors...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

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  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    markhawkman wrote: »
    Actually.... it makes perfect sense really. In the future, the Delta Alliance gets defeated by the Iconians. So temporal agents go back in time to bolster the recruits of the past and prevent that future. Kinda like the situation with Archer and Daniels.

    I haven't watch ST:Enterprise beyond the mid season 1...

    Isn't the purpose of the "Temporal Agents" is to make sure no one tampers with the timeline? If in the future the Delta Alliance gets defeated by the Iconians and the "Temporal Agents" go back in time to bolster faction recruitment, then will they not be violating their own directive?

    What is happening is that the "Temporal Agents" are altering their past so they can change their present. In effect they are tampering the timeline to benefit themselves.
  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    rgzarcher wrote: »
    Not sure why people are complaining.


    because some of us have played the game for years and are starting to see the patterns and better still some of us actually like trek and this dumb stuff makes us want to pull our hair out.
    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • crusader2007crusader2007 Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    prierin wrote: »
    My only question is WHY??? Why do we have to create a new character to take advantage of this? ....Seriously, this should be something ALL charcters, old and new, can take advantage of. Anything else is just lame

    They want to prove to their PWE bosses that metrics will show "Best EXPANSION ever and players WILL love it"...all about metrics>mo money...who the heck cares about players....all about metrics to show erroneously that there more NEW account/characters than ever!

    Best idea EVER! (>sarcasm<)




    ... who needs to play the game for entertainment, the blogs and resulting forum storms are far more entertaining and free! Free 2 Laugh!
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  • irm1963irm1963 Member Posts: 682 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    markhawkman wrote: »
    Actually.... it makes perfect sense really. In the future, the Delta Alliance gets defeated by the Iconians. So temporal agents go back in time to bolster the recruits of the past and prevent that future. Kinda like the situation with Archer and Daniels.

    Reckon they had this planned for a long time then, did you spot the Temporal Agent that's been in the reworked Federation Tutorial since day one ?
  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    your a new toon... your not being sent back in time. while doing the regular story arc... you now have another mission running alongside it asking you to do things... kill stuff, collect things, scan stuff, flip switches etc... this other mission is given to you buy the guy from the future to help him out... your not being given any inside info at all... your still totally in the dark about the future as that new toon.
  • sentinelbluesentinelblue Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Could they not have a had on mission where your current captain complete. This would trigger all the extra stuff they are eluding to for the delta recruit? Time travelling like the show Quantum Leap.
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