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Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

So, science gets nerfed again...

adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
edited February 2015 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22389831&postcount=1
  • Tachyon Beam:
  • Shared cooldown reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.
  • All individual cooldowns reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.
  • Base magnitudes increased dramatically.
  • Benefit that can be gained from Auxiliary Power and Flow Capacitors reduced.
  • These changes affect both Player and NPC usage of the ability.

SO basically, science captains get thrown under the bus (again) for the sake of selling command ships...

Great, thanks Cryptic.

EDIT:
In light of
borticuscryptic wrote: »
Patch notes aren't meant to relay the entire picture. They're just too succinct a format to work for that.

So, to hopefully ally a few fears I already see floating about, I'll share a few example figures of the changes being applied to Tachyon Beam in tomorrow's patch:

- Base magnitudes increased dramatically
- Benefit that can be gained from Auxiliary Power and Flow Capacitors reduced.

Examples:

* 0 Flow Capacitor Skill and 15 Aux Power = ~194% increase to Drain amount (close to triple the current value)
* 100 Skill + 100 Aux Power = ~75% increase to Drain amount
* 300 skill + 135 Aux Power = ~39% increase to Drain amount

So, as you can see, even at extremely-high end, the ability will be receiving an improvement.

I hope that helps. If it's still unclear, please ask any additional questions here and I'll attempt to answer them.

I'm less inclined to consider this a nerf, however I'm still concerned about science captains losing out here in favour of tacs.
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Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • tcfptcfp Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I think the correct term is they threw the science captains under a freighter this time...
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    It sucked before it'll suck now. NPC version is going to be a little nastier since NPCs don't have flow caps or jacked-up Aux but will get the higher base drain, but were any players using a minmaxed TB before? Kinda annoying maybe but I'm not sure this qualifies as bus-roadkill.
  • rimmarierimmarie Member Posts: 418 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I dunno

    I would have to see it in action to be sure. It depends HOW MUCH the base magnitudes are increased.

    But it doesn't really look much like a nerf....sorta looks like a buff


    anyone get to test it on Tribble?
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    Tachyon Beam:
    Shared cooldown reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.
    All individual cooldowns reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.
    Base magnitudes increased dramatically.
    Benefit that can be gained from Auxiliary Power and Flow Capacitors reduced.

    I'd assume that the aux and flow caps changes are to keep it from going crazy. A significant base increase and a nerf to scaling can still result in a buff, they have no reason to do this otherwise. Until you see it on live, don't complain.

    And really, if you're using it on live, you're gimping yourself. It's currently only good at proccing deflector doffs.
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    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

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  • bobtheskull99bobtheskull99 Member Posts: 706 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    depends on the numbers, those are some big CD reductions
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Who used tachyon beam before ?

    No one will even notice.

    This a reaction after there morning sales meeting when someone asked "Why is no one buying our nice ship 3 packs"... then someone pointed out the useless trait one 1 and the semi ok if your a cloakrer but sucks for everyone else on the other.

    A ship 3 pack where people only want 1/3 traits. Not shocking of there sales are almost completely on the one ship.
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  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    rimmarie wrote: »
    But it doesn't really look much like a nerf....sorta looks like a buff

    Well it is, if you're not an engineer or a science captain.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    Frankly, I really can't tell if they threw us under the bus or not. I'll have to record what Tachyon Beam 1,2,3 do today and then after the patch to give my actual verdict, although it reeks of the fix/nerf they did to Gravity Well (Boost it at the low end and to hell with people on the high end).
  • mvp333mvp333 Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    If base magnitudes were "dramatically" increased, then I LIKE this change. I only use Tachyon Beam on ships that don't have Science-build-level Aux power to jack up the tach beam stats, so this is a win-win. As long as it really is a "dramatic" increase.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I'm going to admit to being a little confused here based on what was quoted there.

    Reducing the shared CD from 20s to 10s...reads like a buff.
    Reducing the individual CD from 30s to 20s...reads like a buff.
    Dramatically increasing the base magnitude...reads like a buff.
    Reduced Aux/Flow Caps benefit...well, just how does that read? Reduced dramatically? Doesn't say that. Do we have any numbers on how much that was reduced? How that compares to the "dramatic" increase to the base?

    It's something where it could be buffed compared to how it was even with the reduction...

    ...anybody have any actual hard numbers on what it was/what it will be - for the comparison?
    antoniosalieri wrote: »
    Who used tachyon beam before ?

    I'm thinking about going all Delta thematic on a build...Delta Flyers with their Tachyon III. ;)
  • fusionax77fusionax77 Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    antoniosalieri wrote: »
    Who used tachyon beam before ?

    People who wanted to be useful fighting the space snowflake.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    mvp333 wrote: »
    If base magnitudes were "dramatically" increased, then I LIKE this change. I only use Tachyon Beam on ships that don't have Science-build-level Aux power to jack up the tach beam stats, so this is a win-win. As long as it really is a "dramatic" increase.

    Good for you, but I use it on my Aux 135+Flow caps 438 drain boat and I'll complain like hell if they nerfed it on the high end and screwed over actual science builds yet again.
    virusdancer wrote: »
    Reduced Aux/Flow Caps benefit...well, just how does that read? Reduced dramatically? Doesn't say that. Do we have any numbers on how much that was reduced? How that compares to the "dramatic" increase to the base?

    I was using Tachy Beam every 15 secs anyway, so I didn't have an issue on that end, but last time they messed with the base amount and high end effect (Gravity Well fix), they ended up nerfing people on the high end because "Gravity Well 3 could destroy 3 frigates"
  • berginsbergins Member Posts: 3,453 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I don't get it.

    They reduced cooldown by 10 secs.
    They "dramatically increased" base magnitude, that's good, right?
    They did lower benefits from Aux Power and Flow Capacitors, but by how much?

    Until more figures are shared, I really don't see where the gloom and doom is coming from...
    "Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    I'm going into the game now and taking some pics of Tachyon Beam 1, 2, and 3 and posting them here pre-patch so we can judge if it was a nerf or not. I'll keep my sci ship parked in the same spot with the same gear and Aux power level so we can judge if they nerfed it.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    jarvisandalfred wrote: »
    I'd assume that the aux and flow caps changes are to keep it from going crazy. A significant base increase and a nerf to scaling can still result in a buff, they have no reason to do this otherwise. Until you see it on live, don't complain.

    And really, if you're using it on live, you're gimping yourself. It's currently only good at proccing deflector doffs.

    THIS!

    Except tachyon beam 3 with crazy high flow caps is kind of good with the Solanae deflector.
  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Hmmm....

    So cooldowns are reduced so that players and NPC can use science abilities more often...

    But the bonuses from Aux Power and Flow Caps have been reduced which generally means abilities are less potent...

    It may or not be a nerf depending on the net affect of the change on science abilities over a period of time. Simply looking at it from a "per use" basis, yes it is a nerf. However, the reduced cooldown also means that players can use science abilities more often. It may have a zero sum affect, be a nerf, or be a boost to science abilities overall during the course of a mission. It depends on how much science abilities have been nerfed on a "per use basis".
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,657 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    OP, you decided to cry "nerf" when 3 of the 4 changes are buffs, and you apparently did not go to Tribble to test the 4th change.

    For a Science captain your grasp of empirical research methods seems . . . weak. Perhaps you're actually a Space Wizard in disguise?
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    virusdancer wrote: »
    I'm going to admit to being a little confused here based on what was quoted there.

    Reducing the shared CD from 20s to 10s...reads like a buff.
    Reducing the individual CD from 30s to 20s...reads like a buff.
    Dramatically increasing the base magnitude...reads like a buff.
    Reduced Aux/Flow Caps benefit...well, just how does that read? Reduced dramatically? Doesn't say that. Do we have any numbers on how much that was reduced? How that compares to the "dramatic" increase to the base?

    It's something where it could be buffed compared to how it was even with the reduction...

    ...anybody have any actual hard numbers on what it was/what it will be - for the comparison?

    Yeah, except for that one line regarding reduced benefit from Aux/Flow Caps, this could indeed be a significant buff overall, depending on how much of a reduction...

    At least, that's how I'm reading it...
    davefenestrator wrote: »
    OP, you decided to cry "nerf" when 3 of the 4 changes are buffs, and you apparently did not go to Tribble to test the 4th change.

    For a Science captain your grasp of empirical research methods seems . . . weak. Perhaps you're actually a Space Wizard in disguise?

    Some people just love screaming nerf, no matter how accurate the claim...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    davefenestrator wrote: »
    For a Science captain your grasp of empirical research methods seems . . . weak. Perhaps you're actually a Space Wizard in disguise?

    I did look at the Tribble notes and there was no mention, there was also no mention in the Tribble general discussion, having seen nothing about it anywhere, I decided to start a thread on it where-in I stated that this was only a nerf for science captains, which it likely is and that it is specifically to sell more command ships.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    adamkafei wrote: »
    that it is specifically to sell more command ships.

    Ummm... What?!

    How does this change encourage the sale of Command Ships?
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    Ummm... What?!

    How does this change encourage the sale of Command Ships?

    Because unless I read something wrong one of the platforms uses tachyon beam. Regardless, what possible reason could they have for making such changes, it's not like anyone uses tachyon beam.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • hyplhypl Member Posts: 3,719 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Umm, sounds to me that they're actually making tachyon beam useful by increasing it's base magnitude and reducing cooldowns. And reducing benefits from aux and flow capacitors helps keep it in check.

    Let's see how this plays out before grabbing the torches and pitchforks. Also, I didn't see this change on tribble. Not really a good idea to throw this on holodeck first... :rolleyes:
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  • cookiecrookcookiecrook Member Posts: 4,538 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    adamkafei wrote: »
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22389831&postcount=1



    SO basically, science captains get thrown under the bus (again) for the sake of selling command ships...

    Great, thanks Cryptic.

    That definitely sucks for carrier Captain's that focus on drains. :( PWE can nerf my ships builds all they want, but it won't make me spend a single cent on their craptacular new ships that I have absolutely no interest in!
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  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Because unless I read something wrong one of the platforms uses tachyon beam. Regardless, what possible reason could they have for making such changes, it's not like anyone uses tachyon beam.

    So you're putting 1 and 1 together and coming up with pineapple...

    One single, solitary platform may use Tachyon Beam... Big deal... That's not gonna make someone hand over 3000zen just to get that one ship...

    As to the reason, I won't speculate beyond suggesting that feedback from people, who actually bother to test this stuff, has probably shown a need for this change...

    If you truly believe this has anything to do with selling Command Cruisers, I've got a tin foil hat to sell you...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    hypl wrote: »
    Umm, sounds to me that they're actually making tachyon beam useful by increasing it's base magnitude and reducing cooldowns. And reducing benefits from aux and flow capacitors helps keep it in check.

    Let's see how this plays out before grabbing the torches and pitchforks. Also, I didn't see this change on tribble. Not really a good idea to throw this on holodeck first... :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Nothing new here, it's not like having it on Tribble really does much 90% of the time anyways.
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  • jaguarskxjaguarskx Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    So you're putting 1 and 1 together and coming up with pineapple...

    I like pineapples... especially when it is fresh... not from a can.
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    What gets me is if this is a nerf or not, what happened to changing updating and improving the other 1/3rd of the science abilities that have been shelved for years?

    Seriously? Where are the changes to the rest of this class? What was it season 6 since the last time we saw updates and the only reason they updated this one is so that command ships would be purchased? Nice try but no thanks!

    Someone hail me when they get serious about updating the Science career.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    So here are the numbers close to the high end (438.9 flow caps) at 124 and 135 Aux power. I'll take the same readings post-patch to compare.

    http://tinypic.com/m/ilaul0/3
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    the1tigglet wrote: »
    SO basically, science captains get thrown under the bus (again) for the sake of selling command ships...

    That is so stupid I don't know where to begin.

    The ship trait from the Geneva/Klinzhai/Deihu is Improved Tachyon Beam. This trait depends on Tachyon Beam.

    Why the hell would they nerf Tachyon Beam, and thus reduce the value of the trait granted by 1/3rd of the Command Ships, if they wanted to improve sales of said ship?
  • pilot2012pilot2012 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Not sure if this is intended as a nerf. Description says the base magnitude was increased dramatically, so we'll have to see how it interacts with the CD reductions. They also said they they were going to improve tachyon beam in this interview.
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