Personally, I feel that we're technologically already at the stage where we can build a self-sufficient base on the Moon. The problem lies in two things:
Resources.
It takes a boatload of money to launch all the required resources for the construction of such a facility from Earth. Additionally, we're pretty much using the wrong, short-term approach, and mostly considering building it directly from Earth. Bypassing this issue by building self-replicating asteroid refineries and having them ship the finished components to the Moon doesn't let us build a base there, either.
As you might have guessed, this is because even this option would be unlikely to receive adequate funding to be successfully executed. Why? Because, while this approach is definitely cheaper and more sustainable, it would probably be a few years before the mining drones had reached sufficient productivity to feed the construction efforts. This, mind you, is on top of the time it took just to build the 'mother drone', and on top of the time it took for the base to be finished once the parts started trickling in.
A mining colony with actual people does seem like the logical first step to building a permanent base on the moon. We don't have advanced enough drone tech to do fabrication work with them. Especially when you need to smelt rocks of varying compositions to make the parts.
Power is easy. Solar is more efficient with no atmosphere in the way. Air and water are reasonably easy since you can make them by heating moon dust. Food is the real problem. The first wave would probably have to live off freeze dried meals for years.
I forget where exactly I read about it, but there's a form of solid rocket fuel that, while cost effective, can't be used to launch from Earth since it produces clouds of noxious smoke. This type of fuel could theretically be manufactured ont he moon.
A mining colony with actual people does seem like the logical first step to building a permanent base on the moon.
The idea that we would need to extract resources is probably why we haven't even bothered.
I'm excited to hear that there may be other reasons for moving industry to the Moon. Some have mentioned certain technological disasters as providing impetus, but I would disagree that it would be sufficient. However, if there are certain methods of production or manufacturing that could be done more cheaply/effectively on the Moon, then there's some potential.
I do not believe humanity deserves to colonize other planets because it will always be at the cost of continued suffering elsewhere. What is the point of "making it" if others are willingly and knowingly left behind?
Tell that to every living creature, ever.
For someone who clearly believes we don't do enough to support the natural world, or alternatively believes we do too much to damage it, or both, you seem to know very little about nature or how it works.
But it exists because we want it to exist. It does not need to exist. We want people to suffer. Not we as in the people on this forum, but we as an entire species.
We're incapable of solving most or all of the problems you could cite.
The natural world is capable of producing an infinite amount of suffering. Overcoming that requires being demanding of your fellow man to rise to the occasion, not insist he needs to be compassionate of and support/nurture the weakest amongst us.
How accomplished would we feel if we landed on Mars, but there was still polio, starvation, war, genocide an entire planet away?
That may be the only way to actualize the fantastical paradise portrayed in Star Trek.
Well, that and some divine being coming forth and handing us a magical unlimited energy supply, because so many get so emotionally squeemish at the first mention of nuclear power, the only real alternative that can reduce the footprint of energy production without dramatically reducing that output.
Every person is capable of judging humanity, because they are part of humanity.
I'd sooner let Gary King judge humanity than anyone espousing the emotional wreck your point of view comes across as. Talk about needing to be constructive and show some optimism...
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
The idea that we would need to extract resources is probably why we haven't even bothered.
I'm excited to hear that there may be other reasons for moving industry to the Moon. Some have mentioned certain technological disasters as providing impetus, but I would disagree that it would be sufficient. However, if there are certain methods of production or manufacturing that could be done more cheaply/effectively on the Moon, then there's some potential.
Well, there's also escape velocity to consider. It takes 3 times as much thrust to leave the Earth as it does the Moon. Which pretty much triples fuel consumption, unless you use a space plane design to exit the lower atmosphere. But that doesn't save enough to make it better than moon launch.
Why is this important? Well... when you want to put 20 tons of steel into orbit, suddenly the cost of fuel makes a much bigger difference. Building a colony ship to go to Mars? you're gonna need more than just 20 tons of steel for that size of a project. There's a reason we call them space SHUTTLES, they're tiny and have about as much room as an RV. A colony ship would need to be an actual SHIP and not just a bus with rockets. It'd need room for dozens of people, several years worth of food for each person, and the machinery required to build a colony. I figure something the size of an oil tanker would work.
So, Mars One is even worse baloney than scientists were warning: It's a pyramid scam.
Contestants (the 100 finalists and 2700-some-odd selected in the first round) are pressured into buying merchandise to sell to the public and are expected to "donate" 75% of any speaking fees they make giving interviews.
And here I've been calling it the grim epitaph to carve on the tombstone of our civilization ("Men died on Mars because people on Earth got bored of watching them"). Don't I feel silly?
Well, there's also escape velocity to consider. It takes 3 times as much thrust to leave the Earth as it does the Moon. Which pretty much triples fuel consumption, unless you use a space plane design to exit the lower atmosphere. But that doesn't save enough to make it better than moon launch.
Why is this important? Well... when you want to put 20 tons of steel into orbit, suddenly the cost of fuel makes a much bigger difference. Building a colony ship to go to Mars? you're gonna need more than just 20 tons of steel for that size of a project. There's a reason we call them space SHUTTLES, they're tiny and have about as much room as an RV. A colony ship would need to be an actual SHIP and not just a bus with rockets. It'd need room for dozens of people, several years worth of food for each person, and the machinery required to build a colony. I figure something the size of an oil tanker would work.
Uhm, the planet cannot sustain an ever increasing population. People aren't wiping out the oceans and cutting down the rainforests because they have nothing better to do.
it can with proper urban planning and the removal of national borders... having the population focused in non-arable lands...
using your arguments the Europeans should never have colonized the new world
I think they did the right thing
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
yeah, I got a few million Natives who would disagree with you on that
I got a few hundred million who would disagree with that !
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
of course they would. They got their homes on the ****, murder and genocide of countless innocent civilizations.
Thats a dead-end argument.
The past cannot be changed, our past shapes our evolution and progress.
Colonization was a byproduct of our societal evolution. And shouldn't be used to stand in the way of progress.
Moving forward a civilization cannot forget the past. They must learn from it, and improve upon their failures. If not then they will cease to exist.
Furthuremore, unless you have a better way to divide and organize the world (which doesnt lead to even more genocide) then you cannot use such a mindset and statements when debating the future progression of the human race.
Yes I know there is a current plan to go there under Mars One, but really could that plan work?
It's a one way trip, with no return to Earth, that's it your home for life if you go.
But really are we ready to setup a colony on a new world?
But for I add my 2 cents of an idea, lets hear what you guys think. 2024 isn't that far off, the planned launch of the 1st group, with 2 year apart launches after that, I just don't know if this current plan is a good one.
Until we have the technology to reliably send people, and needed supplies to Mars on a regular basis - and are also able to land them in a specific area on Mars reliably, none. Hell, even our probes sent to Mars over the years have had a 40% chance of NOT getting there. Do I believe we could have the ability to do so in less then a decade IF enough money, time, and the right people were tasked to make it happen? Yes. But IMO the Mars One group in't really made up of such people, nor does it have the funds to get the job done. I seriously doubt they'll launch as outlined, and further, if they do, and some of the people selected ACTUALLY attempt to go, I unfortunately think they won't survive the trip TO Mars, or successfully land/survive for a long period.
In the end (IMO), 'Mars One' is one big stunt/scam; and I don't see it ending well for anyone involved.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
The only way Mars One can be successful (apart from blind luck) is to send periodic supply ships to the first & subsequent colonists. Spare parts, replacements, consumables, additional tools & equipment all could be delivered via soft-landing drones. The likelihood that the original team's supplies & gear will last two years, even if there are good mechanics among them to keep things running is pretty small...
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The only way Mars One can be successful (apart from blind luck) is to send periodic supply ships to the first & subsequent colonists. Spare parts, replacements, consumables, additional tools & equipment all could be delivered via soft-landing drones. The likelihood that the original team's supplies & gear will last two years, even if there are good mechanics among them to keep things running is pretty small...
yeah, this is the sort of reason I suggested you'd need an oil-tanker sized ship for a dozen people.
it needs to be set up by robots first, and those robots set up the farming and mining programs needed to establish the supplies the settlers will need... before the settlers land.
it needs to be set up by robots first, and those robots set up the farming and mining programs needed to establish the supplies the settlers will need... before the settlers land.
otherwise they're screwed
Those robots would be really awesome if put to work on Earth building homes and farming biospheres.
Maybe put these robots to work in drought-afflicted areas and non-arable land as a proof-of-concept. Maybe give food and shelter to those who need it, not to mention clean, drinkable water.
Give this a trial run of a decade or more, and use it on another planet once we think we have it streamlined and effective.
Those robots would be really awesome if put to work on Earth building homes and farming biospheres.
Maybe put these robots to work in drought-afflicted areas and non-arable land as a proof-of-concept. Maybe give food and shelter to those who need it, not to mention clean, drinkable water.
Give this a trial run of a decade or more, and use it on another planet once we think we have it streamlined and effective.
that would be a good idea to test it.
I've pushed the Canadian government to try this concept in the far north... nothing
Comments
Nope. It's equal.
Power is easy. Solar is more efficient with no atmosphere in the way. Air and water are reasonably easy since you can make them by heating moon dust. Food is the real problem. The first wave would probably have to live off freeze dried meals for years.
I forget where exactly I read about it, but there's a form of solid rocket fuel that, while cost effective, can't be used to launch from Earth since it produces clouds of noxious smoke. This type of fuel could theretically be manufactured ont he moon.
My character Tsin'xing
I'm excited to hear that there may be other reasons for moving industry to the Moon. Some have mentioned certain technological disasters as providing impetus, but I would disagree that it would be sufficient. However, if there are certain methods of production or manufacturing that could be done more cheaply/effectively on the Moon, then there's some potential.
Tell that to every living creature, ever.
For someone who clearly believes we don't do enough to support the natural world, or alternatively believes we do too much to damage it, or both, you seem to know very little about nature or how it works.
We're incapable of solving most or all of the problems you could cite.
The natural world is capable of producing an infinite amount of suffering. Overcoming that requires being demanding of your fellow man to rise to the occasion, not insist he needs to be compassionate of and support/nurture the weakest amongst us.
That may be the only way to actualize the fantastical paradise portrayed in Star Trek.
Well, that and some divine being coming forth and handing us a magical unlimited energy supply, because so many get so emotionally squeemish at the first mention of nuclear power, the only real alternative that can reduce the footprint of energy production without dramatically reducing that output.
I'd sooner let Gary King judge humanity than anyone espousing the emotional wreck your point of view comes across as. Talk about needing to be constructive and show some optimism...
Why is this important? Well... when you want to put 20 tons of steel into orbit, suddenly the cost of fuel makes a much bigger difference. Building a colony ship to go to Mars? you're gonna need more than just 20 tons of steel for that size of a project. There's a reason we call them space SHUTTLES, they're tiny and have about as much room as an RV. A colony ship would need to be an actual SHIP and not just a bus with rockets. It'd need room for dozens of people, several years worth of food for each person, and the machinery required to build a colony. I figure something the size of an oil tanker would work.
My character Tsin'xing
So, Mars One is even worse baloney than scientists were warning: It's a pyramid scam.
Contestants (the 100 finalists and 2700-some-odd selected in the first round) are pressured into buying merchandise to sell to the public and are expected to "donate" 75% of any speaking fees they make giving interviews.
And here I've been calling it the grim epitaph to carve on the tombstone of our civilization ("Men died on Mars because people on Earth got bored of watching them"). Don't I feel silly?
it can with proper urban planning and the removal of national borders... having the population focused in non-arable lands...
using your arguments the Europeans should never have colonized the new world
I think they did the right thing
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
yeah, I got a few million Natives who would disagree with you on that
I got a few hundred million who would disagree with that !
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
of course they would. They got their homes on the ****, murder and genocide of countless innocent civilizations.
Thats a dead-end argument.
The past cannot be changed, our past shapes our evolution and progress.
Colonization was a byproduct of our societal evolution. And shouldn't be used to stand in the way of progress.
Moving forward a civilization cannot forget the past. They must learn from it, and improve upon their failures. If not then they will cease to exist.
Furthuremore, unless you have a better way to divide and organize the world (which doesnt lead to even more genocide) then you cannot use such a mindset and statements when debating the future progression of the human race.
Until we have the technology to reliably send people, and needed supplies to Mars on a regular basis - and are also able to land them in a specific area on Mars reliably, none. Hell, even our probes sent to Mars over the years have had a 40% chance of NOT getting there. Do I believe we could have the ability to do so in less then a decade IF enough money, time, and the right people were tasked to make it happen? Yes. But IMO the Mars One group in't really made up of such people, nor does it have the funds to get the job done. I seriously doubt they'll launch as outlined, and further, if they do, and some of the people selected ACTUALLY attempt to go, I unfortunately think they won't survive the trip TO Mars, or successfully land/survive for a long period.
In the end (IMO), 'Mars One' is one big stunt/scam; and I don't see it ending well for anyone involved.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci
Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac
Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
My character Tsin'xing
otherwise they're screwed
Those robots would be really awesome if put to work on Earth building homes and farming biospheres.
Maybe put these robots to work in drought-afflicted areas and non-arable land as a proof-of-concept. Maybe give food and shelter to those who need it, not to mention clean, drinkable water.
Give this a trial run of a decade or more, and use it on another planet once we think we have it streamlined and effective.
that would be a good idea to test it.
I've pushed the Canadian government to try this concept in the far north... nothing