$25-$30 is kind of a lot for some pixels. I couldn't justify spending over $100 for a pack of game avatars and skills. Honestly, I always saw the price of ships being high because:
1. Anyone can exchange dilithium for Zen.
2. Some people have more money than sense, and will just throw money at their screen because it's new and/or to feed their impatience.
3. Some can partially pay for the ship with money, partially with dilithium exchange.
But, now:
1. One is less likely inclined to exchange dilithium for Zen, or they risk neglecting one of the numerous new things for which they could be using it.
2. Ships cost more than 2500 Zen.
3. Dilithium earning has been nerfed across the board.
4. Your "new shiny" will likely be outclassed by another "new shiny." And it won't take long.
I can't understand their pricing valuation. Paying as much or more to unlock a playable character (which is virtually identical to all other characters in game from a play stance, just a slight juggling of consoles/officer slots) as you would for a stand-alone game seems completely out of touch with reality.
At the same time, a lotto ticket which might win me $500 million in real life is cheaper than a lock box ticket (key) which might win me a ship I may or may not want - can't tell because I don't get to evaluate it without buying it. I can guarantee I'd want the $500 million.
I'm not opposed to spending money, I spend a lot on some things that others would think is junk, but I'm not going to devalue my hard-earned currency so badly.
Less Moderating - Which would then make this forum just an "STO community" not related to pwe/cryptic as it'd be on fire 24/7.
Total anarchy would be 100x better than forums effectively moderated by the PR department (which is something plenty of other games do, but you don't).
Just look at LoL; their forums became a community unto itself. Admittedly, that crowd turned out to be a variety of miscreants and perverts, but their perversions were abetted by mods with similar perverse interests.
One of those most common laments I hear regarding the difference in community between modern MMOs and those of yesteryear is the loss of community. Major factors behind that decline are the result of decisions made by development studios.
Middle ground - Which is what we go for. You have a right to rant, we don't stop that, but if you want the team to take you seriously it's gotta be constructive.
There's plenty of great and constructive feeback. You guys can't blame the slightest hint of negativity as an excuse for not taking that feedback. I understand you mods will need to provide an even greater degree of freedom; some feedback is sufficiently hostile that developers won't be able to use it effectively, without being so hostile that it needs to be moderated.
But, if professional peoples weren't able to develop a thick enough skin to filter out the negative tone within otherwise constructive feedback, we probably wouldn't Star Trek, or Star Wars, or plenty of other IPs or countless hundreds or thousands of other products.
Your company wants to make money; that does indeed involve wiping some **** off a pebble to see if there's a diamond underneath that filth.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Also feel free to chime in to our discussion about the 20th anniversary of Star Trek Voyager! What do you see as its unique contribution to Trek history?
It contributed nothing but ****ty plotting, a near-complete absence of character development, abuse of the reset button, the idiotic Kazon and Ocampa, the war criminal Kobali, and a Starfleet Command that apparently rewards people for attempted murder of prisoners and committing high treason against the Federation.
No, I don't like VOY. Why do you ask?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
When I was younger, I remember thinking that Voyager didn't really get good until the 4th season, but recently, I resolved to go back and rewatch the early seasons. I was surprised to see how goods they were. There was a lot more friction between the crew, the plots were not so hyper focused on a handful of characters, and there were more little nuggets and hints for devoted fans.
but you can check any of the earlier videos.The game was origianlly balanced and was great for pvp.Actually every item was balanced and thought for pvp not for pve.Now PvP is a pain to play
Those are some VERY ROSE COLORED GLASSES you seem to have. STO PvP was never really balanced from the start, ever. back in the old days Reverse shield Polarity reigned supreme and thus began Cryptic's ham-handed efforts to 'balance' PvP for the past 5 years - with no real success and introducing unbalanced new mechanic or gear one after the other.
Pretty quickly Cryptic saw that not enough people really bothered to play PvP and DStahl during his tenure seriously considered dropping it from STO entirely. Cryptic has never really done a balanced PvP implementation in any of the MMOs it' produced to date, going all the way back to 'City of Heroes'.
They may pay some lip service to PvP on occasion - but honestly, haven't done a thing to STO PvP (in terms of real balance or attempts to fix broken mechanics) since the game launched. they added one whole new ground map, and 'Shuttle PvP' - but in all honesty have not yet attempted to tackle or address the GLARING issues STO PvP has - and further, just keep piling on more and more broken/unbalanced stuff into the mix (gotta dangle that proverbial carrot so the masses keep spending Zen.)
Don't get me wrong in that I would LOVE if STO PvP could be refined and balanced to be fun and challenging; but it seems Cryptic lacks both the real desire and the honest ability to seriously tackle and correct all the imbalances they themselves have introduced.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I understand that this is a F2P game and that folks may have come to gaming during F2P...so I sometimes wonder if that's what affects their thoughts on pricing of things. Though, the comparisons to buying games always kind of throws me for a loop because that's precisely one of the main reasons I got into MMOs in the first place.
Were this a subscription-only based game, folks would be looking at shelling out ~$15 a month to play. So coming from that frame of reference, dropping out $30 for a ship would be akin to paying two months worth of a sub. If that ship is flown for more than two months, then it would have paid for itself. A 3pack of ships for $60 would be equivalent to a discounted subscription for 6 months - pay for 4, get 2 free. But it's not that kind of game, so folks that didn't spend a bunch of time in the subscription model of MMOs may not see it that way...and it's not necessarily the way Cryptic is looking at it either. It's just a simple thing, imho, knowing that the game does require funding for it to continue to running and for further development.
Now the other bit...comparing it to a standalone game, eh? Just how long will that game be played, yeah? That's why even with the boxed price, a subscription, and paid expansions...I got into MMOs. It was far cheaper in the long run...I got tired of buying games that if I was lucky even lasted a week - Hell, some didn't even last a weekend. It soured me on games in general. I'd grown up with games that lasted a long time...not wham, bam, done. MMOs offered that.
So if I was faced with the choice of dropping $60 for a 3pack of ships that I could enjoy for years or for a game that would be done in a week or even a weekend...yeah...that choice is pretty simple.
When you add in that nothing in the game actually requires spending anything...well...complaints about the costs in STO just strike me as odd. There are all sorts of complaints that strike me as odd.
I think Lock Boxes are one of my favorites...it kind of makes me feel old, mind you. Did you ever collect sports cards, tv/movie cards, or whatnot, eh? Each pack of cards you bought had some random cards in it. There were rare cards and common cards, etc, etc, etc. Sometimes you'd trade with friends for stuff or save up your allowance to go to a sports memorabilia/collector's store or the like, yeah? Hell, they even did the same thing with TCGs not that far in the past...Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, the Vampire game whatever that was, and a whole bunch of them. The same premise.
How long it takes stuff? Meh, don't even get me started on that, eh?
Bah, sometimes it feels like I'm from a different planet than some of my fellow posters out there...and well, one could say that's the case.
I initially grew up in a world with phonebooths, typewriters, stamps, adjusting rabbit ears on the black & white TV, 8-tracks, records, cassettes, etc, etc, etc...sure, stuff came along as the decades went by. I remember my first CD was Information Society's self-titled album. I remember carrying two pagers and two cell phones - none of which combined could do a fraction of what even the most basic phone does these days - I remember getting cable TV, being excited about all the channels, and not being able to find anything to watch - remember how awesome it was going from the Pong console to an Atari 2600 - I remember hooking up my Commodore Vic20 and getting started in computers - I remember getting on Prodigy and sending email - I remember my first MP3 player which looked like my portable CD player - and yeah, it goes on and on from where I grew up in the 70s-80s to where we are now. So while so much of the stuff we have is pretty cool, more "efficient", and so forth - I still grew up in another time - might as well be another planet - compared to some folks, yeah?
Every time I see somebody mention a grind, I picture a certain faction thing where you'd have to spend hours a day for months on end finally to get there. Spending a few minutes a day if that for 2-3 weeks if that...it's laughable.
Bah, I'm rambling...guess the TLDR would be: "VD's not out of his mind, VD's simply from another time."
If something in a computer game takes more than 6 months to achieve, something is wrong.
It's that simple. Please don't bore me with tales of MMOs long extinct that had longer grinds than that. If something in a computer game takes more than 6 months to achieve, something is wrong. Long term goals are one thing. Busy Work is something else.
If something in a computer game takes more than 6 months to achieve, something is wrong.
It's that simple. Please don't bore me with tales of MMOs long extinct that had longer grinds than that. If something in a computer game takes more than 6 months to achieve, something is wrong. Long term goals are one thing. Busy Work is something else.
I don't see why people shoot down comments asking for a reduction in the grind. Hey, if people want to take years to achieve a goal in this game I'd never try to stop them. As you said, different folks like different things. It's strange that you say that while backing a mechanic that leaves players with only one choice - the long grind.
I've said it before but mmos are supposed to take a long time. The best part of MMOs is who you play with, not the rewards if your playing any game for DPS/shinies/cause you have to, you have missed the point. Do the parts you enjoy with the people you enjoy playing with. Nothing else matters
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I've said it before but mmos are supposed to take a long time. The best part of MMOs is who you play with, not the rewards if your playing any game for DPS/shinies/cause you have to, you have missed the point. Do the parts you enjoy with the people you enjoy playing with. Nothing else matters
There has to be a balance between fun and grinding. I'm not saying that some people don't or shouldn't enjoy the long term grinding. I'm saying that not everybody enjoys it.
I'm not trying to impose my play style on everybody else. I don't understand why people are trying to impose their play style onto me.
While I see your point of view, I completely disagree.
For one, say you have 1 character in each f(r)action. At $30 each, that's $90. Now, say you have 2 of each, and half are Tac, half are SCI. OK, there's another $80 (because lol SCI Roms and KDF). So, there's $170. Now, say you want dilithium for fleet projects, upgrades, Rep items, whatever.
OK, now, 5 months later, the "top of the line, endgame" stuff you bought is outclassed. Even after spending $170, you still don't have the best things. Even just going by ship costs, you've spent $34/month.
And that's whether or not you care about rushed, buggy content and systems. Lag, DCs, and SNRs.
I've spent 15 a month on subscriptions before. I wouldn't spend $34 just to have the best digital pixels for 5 months. At least with a subscription, you don't also incur another $19/mo for your avatar/skills. And have constant [buy me] prompts everywhere. And I wouldn't pay $15 for the laggy, buggy, mess that's going on now. In fact, I'm at the "take a break until it's fixed" point now.
While, in theory, you have a point, I think the price/return ratio is off, at this point.
I don't see why people shoot down comments asking for a reduction in the grind. Hey, if people want to take years to achieve a goal in this game I'd never try to stop them. As you said, different folks like different things. It's strange that you say that while backing a mechanic that leaves players with only one choice - the long grind.
Because I don't see it as a grind. I see it as an additional reward for something one is already doing...they're playing anyway. They're additional rewards for continued play...they're not reasons to play. If I were coming at it from the angle of them being reasons to play, then I'd have left a long time ago. Cause that would turn it into a job...and I've quit quite a few MMOs where it had turned into a job. Always having to log in to chase after some carrot to keep up with what was going on. STO doesn't do that...that's why we've got folks doing 6k and 180k in the same content, because all of that extra stuff isn't required.
STO's a treadmill to nowhere if you want to play it that way. Grind out X...why? So you can grind out Y faster...why? So you can grind out Z faster...over and over? Where does it get anybody? It's just a treadmill...the folks doing 50k+ DPS aren't doing harder content, they're just doing the same content faster. You can run the Advanced content and even some of the Elite content in this game without touching Reputations, R&D, Specializations, Fleets, or any of the commonly mentioned grinds.
There's no having to do something for a month so you can gain access to content that you couldn't do otherwise...then not spending weeks doing that content so you can tackle the next content.
STO's extremely casual content...with some "cool" stuff one might want to pick up here and there.
I go with the fundamental reward for playing a game...is it fun? Is it an enjoyable way to waste some time, eh? I'm not going to ruin that by turning it into some grind...and it would be me that's doing that, not the game. The game's just offering me additional rewards for what I was doing anyway...wasting some time and having fun.
$170 worth of fun? No. That's well over an entire year's worth of subscriptions for another game. Or premium cable. Or a gym membership. Or a handful of games. For 5 months worth of a game with 6 digital renderings of ships.
Investment/return ratio is just not right at this juncture, IMO. I'm not against paying. Not at all. But I wouldn't consider what's going on a "fair price" for the return.
That's fine. I don't want to try to change your point of view. I'm sure you'll show me the same courtesy.
You don't see it as a grind. That's 100% fine by me. Why does it bother you that some people DO see it as a grind?
Because it's not just a discussion of how folks see things...folks want to change things. So when folks see things in a different light and they want the game to go forward based on how they see things, there is going to be conflict. People are going to argue for how they want the game to develop. It's not just that people see various things about the game different than I do, it's that they want to change the game based on how they see things...and...that can adversely affect my enjoyment of the game.
Spike: So should we have cake or pie?
Tom: Cake!
Jerry: Pie!
$170 worth of fun? No. That's well over an entire year's worth of subscriptions for another game. Or premium cable. Or a gym membership. Or a handful of games. For 5 months worth of a game with 6 digital renderings of ships.
Investment/return ratio is just not right at this juncture, IMO. I'm not against paying. Not at all. But I wouldn't consider what's going on a "fair price" for the return.
Then...er...don't pay it? If you don't think it's a fair price, then don't pay it.
There are all sorts of things that I'd like out there, that I can't afford, or I don't think are worth the price being asked...so I don't get them.
I mean, c'mon...
One of the times I moved, I lost the four screws that attach my TV to the base...they want $15 for four tiny TRIBBLE proprietary screws. It's been about three years now...I still haven't bought the screws. $15 is less than pizza night for watching Grimm, but I'm not paying $15 for those stupid screws.
If, as people keep saying, they don't care how long it takes to gain specialization points because they just play anyway... why would they care if Cryptic decided to reduce the grind?
How would it affect you if, as you say, you just play for fun and don't even notice when you get specialization points?
It shouldn't bother you at all if they reduced the points you need by 50% if you're just playing for fun & not noticing how long it takes.
Then...er...don't pay it? If you don't think it's a fair price, then don't pay it.
There are all sorts of things that I'd like out there, that I can't afford, or I don't think are worth the price being asked...so I don't get them.
I mean, c'mon...
One of the times I moved, I lost the four screws that attach my TV to the base...they want $15 for four tiny TRIBBLE proprietary screws. It's been about three years now...I still haven't bought the screws. $15 is less than pizza night for watching Grimm, but I'm not paying $15 for those stupid screws.
That's the point. People (generally) aren't complaining about being charged, but the price being asked. At least that's what I'm addressing. And there's been an increased emphasis on monetization of so many things, that it's become a tad bit irritating.
Unless I'm completely missing some people's points, which very well could be.
And don't be silly. Tom and Jerry didn't start that way. Obviously, it had something to do with cheese and/or cat food.
Those are some VERY ROSE COLORED GLASSES you seem to have. STO PvP was never really balanced from the start, ever. back in the old days Reverse shield Polarity reigned supreme and thus began Cryptic's ham-handed efforts to 'balance' PvP for the past 5 years - with no real success and introducing unbalanced new mechanic or gear one after the other.
Pretty quickly Cryptic saw that not enough people really bothered to play PvP and DStahl during his tenure seriously considered dropping it from STO entirely. Cryptic has never really done a balanced PvP implementation in any of the MMOs it' produced to date, going all the way back to 'City of Heroes'.
They may pay some lip service to PvP on occasion - but honestly, haven't done a thing to STO PvP (in terms of real balance or attempts to fix broken mechanics) since the game launched. they added one whole new ground map, and 'Shuttle PvP' - but in all honesty have not yet attempted to tackle or address the GLARING issues STO PvP has - and further, just keep piling on more and more broken/unbalanced stuff into the mix (gotta dangle that proverbial carrot so the masses keep spending Zen.)
Don't get me wrong in that I would LOVE if STO PvP could be refined and balanced to be fun and challenging; but it seems Cryptic lacks both the real desire and the honest ability to seriously tackle and correct all the imbalances they themselves have introduced.
i say balance the game for pve .Im sure npcs willl QQ on the forums about the broken stuffs.
thou pve players and npcs have something in common...I'll let you figure out what.
If, as people keep saying, they don't care how long it takes to gain specialization points because they just play anyway... why would they care if Cryptic decided to reduce the grind?
How would it affect you if, as you say, you just play for fun and don't even notice when you get specialization points?
It shouldn't bother you at all if they reduced the points you need by 50% if you're just playing for fun & not noticing how long it takes.
I didn't say I didn't notice. This is what I said regarding the "grind" in general.
I see it as an additional reward for something one is already doing...they're playing anyway. They're additional rewards for continued play...they're not reasons to play.
So it is something that is noticed...something that you want to take away. There would not be those nifty little additional rewards while playing.
With regard to Specialization XP for Spec Points, I wouldn't tackle the issue by reducing the SXP required...I don't see that as an issue. However, I do see the lack of balance with regard to time/effort that folks spend/exert doing things and how they are rewarded as an issue.
Somebody spending 90s doing Gerran shouldn't get a better reward than somebody that spent 15 minutes replaying Coliseum.
Me, I'll hit up an Argala Elite knowing that I'm getting 1/3-1/2 the reward I would have gotten from running 2-3 Argala Normal...because it's fun for me to reset it until I get Argala Hirogen Elite and go at it...but that lack of balance is still an issue, imho.
If the rewards were actually balanced...
X Time/Effort @ Normal = A
Y Time/Effort @ Advanced = B
Z Time/Effort @ Elite = C
Where adjusting XYZ adjusted ABC...where there were multiple options providing the same level of reward for folks, then I think it would likely feel like less of a grind.
If folks feel like they need to bounce back and forth between Argala and Gerran...well, that's forcing them into the situation where they're likely to feel like they're just moving bricks from one pile to the next and then back again, no?
Via balancing the rewards, they'd not only provide options, but also provide faster/better/more efficient options to folks while still providing options, yeah?
Cause even if the SXP were reduced to 50% as you mentioned, folks will still mainly be stuck bouncing Argala/Gerran as their most efficient options, no? What does it actually fix?
Set it up so there are balanced options where folks could earn 150%-200% of what they would from something like Argala, where there are multiple options at that rate...
...wouldn't that address the concern in a similar fashion without leaving it with that A/G thing?
And personally, that would have less of an effect on my gameplay...cause I'd still be able to muddle along doing whatever I do with things happening whenever they do...
...while it would provide all sorts of alternatives for other folks, yeah?
That's the point. People (generally) aren't complaining about being charged, but the price being asked. At least that's what I'm addressing. And there's been an increased emphasis on monetization of so many things, that it's become a tad bit irritating.
Unless I'm completely missing some people's points, which very well could be.
And don't be silly. Tom and Jerry didn't start that way. Obviously, it had something to do with cheese and/or cat food.
Spike: What do we want for dessert?
Jerry: Cheesecake!
Tom: Salmon mousse!
I never advocated the removal of the Specialization Points system. I've no idea how you've formed that opinion.
I like the Specializations. I just don't think it should take over 6 months to get them all.
So here's a couple of things on that...
We currently have 2 Primary and 2 Secondary. You can only slot a single Primary and single Secondary at a time. Just because something is there...well...doesn't mean that it needs to be done. Does it offer you something that you want, eh?
[System] Willard the Rat has been on active duty for 38 days, 13 hours, 37 minutes, 1 second.
He was created like a few weeks before the launch of Delta Rising as a reroll (I once again deleted all of my guys (11 guys))...
That's been around 126 days since DR launched...just over 4 months...barely past halfway there as far as having them all, so it could take near 8 months for me at the rate I play, eh?
There were folks that were done within a week...there are folks that were done in no time even after Command was added. They went at it.
Odds are that I'm not going to put points in Commando at any point...if I manage to accumulate the points before the next Spec comes out, I'll just hold on to them (that's how I managed to get to 17/30 in Command, I had points I didn't invest)...
There will be folks that do it faster, there will be folks that do it slower...
...saying that it takes X amount of time or longer would only be true if it couldn't be done faster. And like I said, I'm going at a slower pace than that 6 months yet there are folks that were done in no time.
edit: Though to be honest, with all the latency/lag since the Anniversary patch...it could take me years at this rate...cause the game simply isn't any fun to play at the moment.
The one thing that the Devs didn't put in the poll was "Bug Fixes".
And the reason is because they know that Bug fixes should be high priority over ANYTHING else.
Also, there is no grind?!?! Crafting IS a GRIND. REP IS A GRIND. And having to do ANYTHING has become a GRIND.
Elija, please understand what a grind is and why it has NO PLACE in STO.
Did they REALLY REALLY say there is no grind? Seriously? OMG seriously?!
It will take casuals 3.5 years to get enough spec points to fill out just the first two spec point lists and that before they added command and they think there's no grind in this game?
I guess there's a new wave of players from Korea moving to the EU and US nations because suddenly there are a ton of these people who think that normal reasonable gameplay (you know about 6 months to complete a round of leveling/gearing/maxing out stats = grind) yes that means a REASONABLE amount of time =/= grind. I dunno why these people keep trying to redefine grind. Grind is when the normal goals of normal progression take years to complete! That's grind when it takes years to complete it for one character?
The most insane grinds today however like in this title far far far outweigh anything we've seen in any sandbox or pre-WoW style 2004 model of MMO's even with their level of RNG drops and terrible stats on gear we haven't seen this level of grinding in mmo's of the past ever here in the west! At least none that have ever lasted very long!
Man I cannot believe this nonsense do these people live on another planet or something?
Those are some VERY ROSE COLORED GLASSES you seem to have. STO PvP was never really balanced from the start, ever.
Maybe not to perfection , but both endgame PVP and lower Tier PVP was a generally fun experience in Year One .
Fast forward 4 years, and the attempt to create a balanced MK X gear only channel (OPVP) generally gernered good results and a positive experience (until DR arrived and screwed that pooch).
The "truth" about PVP for me is that the basics are more or less there, and they get screwed over every time Cryptic add something .
The logical outcome is either continuing to add stuff and breaks it more and more or separate PVP from PVE and rebuild it in a way that no new powers are added, period .
Sadly, while the second option is geared toward a fun experience , Cryptic is geared toward selling power .
And there is your conundrum .
elijah says these things; rest of the panel kinda see both sides of the argument.
yeah, i think you are right about that. i almost suspect he plays the 'straight man' by design, while the girl tends to broach the harder questions. possibly they feel she generates less 'threat'?
Comments
I can't understand their pricing valuation. Paying as much or more to unlock a playable character (which is virtually identical to all other characters in game from a play stance, just a slight juggling of consoles/officer slots) as you would for a stand-alone game seems completely out of touch with reality.
At the same time, a lotto ticket which might win me $500 million in real life is cheaper than a lock box ticket (key) which might win me a ship I may or may not want - can't tell because I don't get to evaluate it without buying it. I can guarantee I'd want the $500 million.
I'm not opposed to spending money, I spend a lot on some things that others would think is junk, but I'm not going to devalue my hard-earned currency so badly.
1.) Ships came with a 'Return to the Mothball Fleet' function, so that you could make room for new ships without losing them.
2.) Lower the ship prices across the board by 25% for T5 or less. (we'll buy other things).
^^ ROFL. That's a fun banner sig! :P
Just look at LoL; their forums became a community unto itself. Admittedly, that crowd turned out to be a variety of miscreants and perverts, but their perversions were abetted by mods with similar perverse interests.
One of those most common laments I hear regarding the difference in community between modern MMOs and those of yesteryear is the loss of community. Major factors behind that decline are the result of decisions made by development studios.
There's plenty of great and constructive feeback. You guys can't blame the slightest hint of negativity as an excuse for not taking that feedback. I understand you mods will need to provide an even greater degree of freedom; some feedback is sufficiently hostile that developers won't be able to use it effectively, without being so hostile that it needs to be moderated.
But, if professional peoples weren't able to develop a thick enough skin to filter out the negative tone within otherwise constructive feedback, we probably wouldn't Star Trek, or Star Wars, or plenty of other IPs or countless hundreds or thousands of other products.
Your company wants to make money; that does indeed involve wiping some **** off a pebble to see if there's a diamond underneath that filth.
It contributed nothing but ****ty plotting, a near-complete absence of character development, abuse of the reset button, the idiotic Kazon and Ocampa, the war criminal Kobali, and a Starfleet Command that apparently rewards people for attempted murder of prisoners and committing high treason against the Federation.
No, I don't like VOY. Why do you ask?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Those are some VERY ROSE COLORED GLASSES you seem to have. STO PvP was never really balanced from the start, ever. back in the old days Reverse shield Polarity reigned supreme and thus began Cryptic's ham-handed efforts to 'balance' PvP for the past 5 years - with no real success and introducing unbalanced new mechanic or gear one after the other.
Pretty quickly Cryptic saw that not enough people really bothered to play PvP and DStahl during his tenure seriously considered dropping it from STO entirely. Cryptic has never really done a balanced PvP implementation in any of the MMOs it' produced to date, going all the way back to 'City of Heroes'.
They may pay some lip service to PvP on occasion - but honestly, haven't done a thing to STO PvP (in terms of real balance or attempts to fix broken mechanics) since the game launched. they added one whole new ground map, and 'Shuttle PvP' - but in all honesty have not yet attempted to tackle or address the GLARING issues STO PvP has - and further, just keep piling on more and more broken/unbalanced stuff into the mix (gotta dangle that proverbial carrot so the masses keep spending Zen.)
Don't get me wrong in that I would LOVE if STO PvP could be refined and balanced to be fun and challenging; but it seems Cryptic lacks both the real desire and the honest ability to seriously tackle and correct all the imbalances they themselves have introduced.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Were this a subscription-only based game, folks would be looking at shelling out ~$15 a month to play. So coming from that frame of reference, dropping out $30 for a ship would be akin to paying two months worth of a sub. If that ship is flown for more than two months, then it would have paid for itself. A 3pack of ships for $60 would be equivalent to a discounted subscription for 6 months - pay for 4, get 2 free. But it's not that kind of game, so folks that didn't spend a bunch of time in the subscription model of MMOs may not see it that way...and it's not necessarily the way Cryptic is looking at it either. It's just a simple thing, imho, knowing that the game does require funding for it to continue to running and for further development.
Now the other bit...comparing it to a standalone game, eh? Just how long will that game be played, yeah? That's why even with the boxed price, a subscription, and paid expansions...I got into MMOs. It was far cheaper in the long run...I got tired of buying games that if I was lucky even lasted a week - Hell, some didn't even last a weekend. It soured me on games in general. I'd grown up with games that lasted a long time...not wham, bam, done. MMOs offered that.
So if I was faced with the choice of dropping $60 for a 3pack of ships that I could enjoy for years or for a game that would be done in a week or even a weekend...yeah...that choice is pretty simple.
When you add in that nothing in the game actually requires spending anything...well...complaints about the costs in STO just strike me as odd. There are all sorts of complaints that strike me as odd.
I think Lock Boxes are one of my favorites...it kind of makes me feel old, mind you. Did you ever collect sports cards, tv/movie cards, or whatnot, eh? Each pack of cards you bought had some random cards in it. There were rare cards and common cards, etc, etc, etc. Sometimes you'd trade with friends for stuff or save up your allowance to go to a sports memorabilia/collector's store or the like, yeah? Hell, they even did the same thing with TCGs not that far in the past...Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, the Vampire game whatever that was, and a whole bunch of them. The same premise.
How long it takes stuff? Meh, don't even get me started on that, eh?
Bah, sometimes it feels like I'm from a different planet than some of my fellow posters out there...and well, one could say that's the case.
I initially grew up in a world with phonebooths, typewriters, stamps, adjusting rabbit ears on the black & white TV, 8-tracks, records, cassettes, etc, etc, etc...sure, stuff came along as the decades went by. I remember my first CD was Information Society's self-titled album. I remember carrying two pagers and two cell phones - none of which combined could do a fraction of what even the most basic phone does these days - I remember getting cable TV, being excited about all the channels, and not being able to find anything to watch - remember how awesome it was going from the Pong console to an Atari 2600 - I remember hooking up my Commodore Vic20 and getting started in computers - I remember getting on Prodigy and sending email - I remember my first MP3 player which looked like my portable CD player - and yeah, it goes on and on from where I grew up in the 70s-80s to where we are now. So while so much of the stuff we have is pretty cool, more "efficient", and so forth - I still grew up in another time - might as well be another planet - compared to some folks, yeah?
Every time I see somebody mention a grind, I picture a certain faction thing where you'd have to spend hours a day for months on end finally to get there. Spending a few minutes a day if that for 2-3 weeks if that...it's laughable.
Bah, I'm rambling...guess the TLDR would be: "VD's not out of his mind, VD's simply from another time."
It's that simple. Please don't bore me with tales of MMOs long extinct that had longer grinds than that. If something in a computer game takes more than 6 months to achieve, something is wrong. Long term goals are one thing. Busy Work is something else.
Free Tibet!
Different folks like different things, yeah?
Maybe the kind of game you're looking for would be better found here: https://games.yahoo.com/
I don't see why people shoot down comments asking for a reduction in the grind. Hey, if people want to take years to achieve a goal in this game I'd never try to stop them. As you said, different folks like different things. It's strange that you say that while backing a mechanic that leaves players with only one choice - the long grind.
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if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
There has to be a balance between fun and grinding. I'm not saying that some people don't or shouldn't enjoy the long term grinding. I'm saying that not everybody enjoys it.
I'm not trying to impose my play style on everybody else. I don't understand why people are trying to impose their play style onto me.
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While I see your point of view, I completely disagree.
For one, say you have 1 character in each f(r)action. At $30 each, that's $90. Now, say you have 2 of each, and half are Tac, half are SCI. OK, there's another $80 (because lol SCI Roms and KDF). So, there's $170. Now, say you want dilithium for fleet projects, upgrades, Rep items, whatever.
OK, now, 5 months later, the "top of the line, endgame" stuff you bought is outclassed. Even after spending $170, you still don't have the best things. Even just going by ship costs, you've spent $34/month.
And that's whether or not you care about rushed, buggy content and systems. Lag, DCs, and SNRs.
I've spent 15 a month on subscriptions before. I wouldn't spend $34 just to have the best digital pixels for 5 months. At least with a subscription, you don't also incur another $19/mo for your avatar/skills. And have constant [buy me] prompts everywhere. And I wouldn't pay $15 for the laggy, buggy, mess that's going on now. In fact, I'm at the "take a break until it's fixed" point now.
While, in theory, you have a point, I think the price/return ratio is off, at this point.
Because I don't see it as a grind. I see it as an additional reward for something one is already doing...they're playing anyway. They're additional rewards for continued play...they're not reasons to play. If I were coming at it from the angle of them being reasons to play, then I'd have left a long time ago. Cause that would turn it into a job...and I've quit quite a few MMOs where it had turned into a job. Always having to log in to chase after some carrot to keep up with what was going on. STO doesn't do that...that's why we've got folks doing 6k and 180k in the same content, because all of that extra stuff isn't required.
STO's a treadmill to nowhere if you want to play it that way. Grind out X...why? So you can grind out Y faster...why? So you can grind out Z faster...over and over? Where does it get anybody? It's just a treadmill...the folks doing 50k+ DPS aren't doing harder content, they're just doing the same content faster. You can run the Advanced content and even some of the Elite content in this game without touching Reputations, R&D, Specializations, Fleets, or any of the commonly mentioned grinds.
There's no having to do something for a month so you can gain access to content that you couldn't do otherwise...then not spending weeks doing that content so you can tackle the next content.
STO's extremely casual content...with some "cool" stuff one might want to pick up here and there.
I go with the fundamental reward for playing a game...is it fun? Is it an enjoyable way to waste some time, eh? I'm not going to ruin that by turning it into some grind...and it would be me that's doing that, not the game. The game's just offering me additional rewards for what I was doing anyway...wasting some time and having fun.
Did you have fun?
I mean, you do see where you're creating your own problems there with the rest, right?
"I need to have multiple toons that always have the best of everything."
Nobody else tells you that you need that...just you.
That's fine. I don't want to try to change your point of view. I'm sure you'll show me the same courtesy.
You don't see it as a grind. That's 100% fine by me. Why does it bother you that some people DO see it as a grind?
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$170 worth of fun? No. That's well over an entire year's worth of subscriptions for another game. Or premium cable. Or a gym membership. Or a handful of games. For 5 months worth of a game with 6 digital renderings of ships.
Investment/return ratio is just not right at this juncture, IMO. I'm not against paying. Not at all. But I wouldn't consider what's going on a "fair price" for the return.
Because it's not just a discussion of how folks see things...folks want to change things. So when folks see things in a different light and they want the game to go forward based on how they see things, there is going to be conflict. People are going to argue for how they want the game to develop. It's not just that people see various things about the game different than I do, it's that they want to change the game based on how they see things...and...that can adversely affect my enjoyment of the game.
Spike: So should we have cake or pie?
Tom: Cake!
Jerry: Pie!
And that's how the Tom & Jerry series started.
Then...er...don't pay it? If you don't think it's a fair price, then don't pay it.
There are all sorts of things that I'd like out there, that I can't afford, or I don't think are worth the price being asked...so I don't get them.
I mean, c'mon...
One of the times I moved, I lost the four screws that attach my TV to the base...they want $15 for four tiny TRIBBLE proprietary screws. It's been about three years now...I still haven't bought the screws. $15 is less than pizza night for watching Grimm, but I'm not paying $15 for those stupid screws.
If, as people keep saying, they don't care how long it takes to gain specialization points because they just play anyway... why would they care if Cryptic decided to reduce the grind?
How would it affect you if, as you say, you just play for fun and don't even notice when you get specialization points?
It shouldn't bother you at all if they reduced the points you need by 50% if you're just playing for fun & not noticing how long it takes.
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That's the point. People (generally) aren't complaining about being charged, but the price being asked. At least that's what I'm addressing. And there's been an increased emphasis on monetization of so many things, that it's become a tad bit irritating.
Unless I'm completely missing some people's points, which very well could be.
And don't be silly. Tom and Jerry didn't start that way. Obviously, it had something to do with cheese and/or cat food.
i say balance the game for pve .Im sure npcs willl QQ on the forums about the broken stuffs.
thou pve players and npcs have something in common...I'll let you figure out what.
I didn't say I didn't notice. This is what I said regarding the "grind" in general.
So it is something that is noticed...something that you want to take away. There would not be those nifty little additional rewards while playing.
With regard to Specialization XP for Spec Points, I wouldn't tackle the issue by reducing the SXP required...I don't see that as an issue. However, I do see the lack of balance with regard to time/effort that folks spend/exert doing things and how they are rewarded as an issue.
Somebody spending 90s doing Gerran shouldn't get a better reward than somebody that spent 15 minutes replaying Coliseum.
Me, I'll hit up an Argala Elite knowing that I'm getting 1/3-1/2 the reward I would have gotten from running 2-3 Argala Normal...because it's fun for me to reset it until I get Argala Hirogen Elite and go at it...but that lack of balance is still an issue, imho.
If the rewards were actually balanced...
X Time/Effort @ Normal = A
Y Time/Effort @ Advanced = B
Z Time/Effort @ Elite = C
Where adjusting XYZ adjusted ABC...where there were multiple options providing the same level of reward for folks, then I think it would likely feel like less of a grind.
If folks feel like they need to bounce back and forth between Argala and Gerran...well, that's forcing them into the situation where they're likely to feel like they're just moving bricks from one pile to the next and then back again, no?
Via balancing the rewards, they'd not only provide options, but also provide faster/better/more efficient options to folks while still providing options, yeah?
Cause even if the SXP were reduced to 50% as you mentioned, folks will still mainly be stuck bouncing Argala/Gerran as their most efficient options, no? What does it actually fix?
Set it up so there are balanced options where folks could earn 150%-200% of what they would from something like Argala, where there are multiple options at that rate...
...wouldn't that address the concern in a similar fashion without leaving it with that A/G thing?
And personally, that would have less of an effect on my gameplay...cause I'd still be able to muddle along doing whatever I do with things happening whenever they do...
...while it would provide all sorts of alternatives for other folks, yeah?
Spike: What do we want for dessert?
Jerry: Cheesecake!
Tom: Salmon mousse!
I never advocated the removal of the Specialization Points system. I've no idea how you've formed that opinion.
I like the Specializations. I just don't think it should take over 6 months to get them all.
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So here's a couple of things on that...
We currently have 2 Primary and 2 Secondary. You can only slot a single Primary and single Secondary at a time. Just because something is there...well...doesn't mean that it needs to be done. Does it offer you something that you want, eh?
[System] Willard the Rat has been on active duty for 38 days, 13 hours, 37 minutes, 1 second.
He was created like a few weeks before the launch of Delta Rising as a reroll (I once again deleted all of my guys (11 guys))...
Intelligence Officer: 23/30
Command Officer: 17/30
Pilot: 15/15
Commando: 0/15
55/90 points.
That's been around 126 days since DR launched...just over 4 months...barely past halfway there as far as having them all, so it could take near 8 months for me at the rate I play, eh?
There were folks that were done within a week...there are folks that were done in no time even after Command was added. They went at it.
Odds are that I'm not going to put points in Commando at any point...if I manage to accumulate the points before the next Spec comes out, I'll just hold on to them (that's how I managed to get to 17/30 in Command, I had points I didn't invest)...
There will be folks that do it faster, there will be folks that do it slower...
...saying that it takes X amount of time or longer would only be true if it couldn't be done faster. And like I said, I'm going at a slower pace than that 6 months yet there are folks that were done in no time.
edit: Though to be honest, with all the latency/lag since the Anniversary patch...it could take me years at this rate...cause the game simply isn't any fun to play at the moment.
Did they REALLY REALLY say there is no grind? Seriously? OMG seriously?!
It will take casuals 3.5 years to get enough spec points to fill out just the first two spec point lists and that before they added command and they think there's no grind in this game?
I guess there's a new wave of players from Korea moving to the EU and US nations because suddenly there are a ton of these people who think that normal reasonable gameplay (you know about 6 months to complete a round of leveling/gearing/maxing out stats = grind) yes that means a REASONABLE amount of time =/= grind. I dunno why these people keep trying to redefine grind. Grind is when the normal goals of normal progression take years to complete! That's grind when it takes years to complete it for one character?
The most insane grinds today however like in this title far far far outweigh anything we've seen in any sandbox or pre-WoW style 2004 model of MMO's even with their level of RNG drops and terrible stats on gear we haven't seen this level of grinding in mmo's of the past ever here in the west! At least none that have ever lasted very long!
Man I cannot believe this nonsense do these people live on another planet or something?
Maybe not to perfection , but both endgame PVP and lower Tier PVP was a generally fun experience in Year One .
Fast forward 4 years, and the attempt to create a balanced MK X gear only channel (OPVP) generally gernered good results and a positive experience (until DR arrived and screwed that pooch).
The "truth" about PVP for me is that the basics are more or less there, and they get screwed over every time Cryptic add something .
The logical outcome is either continuing to add stuff and breaks it more and more or separate PVP from PVE and rebuild it in a way that no new powers are added, period .
Sadly, while the second option is geared toward a fun experience , Cryptic is geared toward selling power .
And there is your conundrum .
yeah, i think you are right about that. i almost suspect he plays the 'straight man' by design, while the girl tends to broach the harder questions. possibly they feel she generates less 'threat'?
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