Well it is funny that Cryptic keeps dismissing Steam numbers, saying they only represent a small portion of the player base. But that portion is still substantial. There is a reason why an election can often be called after about 20% of the votes are in.
So are Steam numbers representative of the entire player base? No. Do they give a clear indication of the game's trend? Yes.
And what does the fact that the Average number of players playing STO through Steam have stayed relatively consistent for over 2 years tell you?
July, 2012: 1,717 monthly player average.
July, 2013: 1.788 monthly player average.
July, 2014: 1,640 monthly player average.
December, 2014: 1,774 monthly player average.
What it tells me is that the people who want to play STO on Steam have continued to do so consistently for over 2 years. Some people pop in and try it and then leave, but the core base has changed very little over the years.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Well it is funny that Cryptic keeps dismissing Steam numbers, saying they only represent a small portion of the player base. But that portion is still substantial. There is a reason why an election can often be called after about 20% of the votes are in.
So are Steam numbers representative of the entire player base? No. Do they give a clear indication of the game's trend? Yes.
If you go onto the Star Trek Online forums and ask the question:
"DO you prefer Star Wars or Star Trek", don't you think it's likely that a larger portion of forum users would vote "Star Trek".
Would you now infer that more people like Star Trek than Star Wars across the world?
If you don't - you have probably implicitly understood that there is a selection bias in your sample. If not, then you failed to account for the fact that of course the Star Trek Online forum is likely to attract people that care particular about Star Trek, so a general preference for Star Trek over other things is likely. You do not get a representative sample out of this, even if your sample size may be large enough.
People that use Steam can generally be assumed to be interested in a variety of games, since Steam is a platform designed to sell games of all kinds. Star Trek games are just one aspect of those games. But Star Trek games appeal to a particular subset of gamers -those interested in Star Trek, obviously. And these people do not have a strong incentive to use Steam - since it's not focused on Star Trek games (and I am not sure, but I think STO may actually be the only Star Trek game available there). That means tehse people often will use different channels to get into STO, which brings them to use the Arc launcher these days, and the old Cryptic launcher if they joined before Arc.
In addition, Steam is also a platform where the audience is affected by events that may not hold true for non-Steam players. For example, Steam is running sales, particularly around holiday seasons. This can attract people away from all kinds of F2P games, because, well, you don't need a sale to join a F2P game*, and a F2P game has generally no running subscription that you need to put to good use.
If you want to play only Star Trek games, certain "advantages" other games have don't matter to you - if STO is too grindy, but WoW isn't, it doesn't matter if you want a Star Trek game. WoW is still not Star Trek. For Steam players, that may generally have a broader interest in games, such advantages and disadvantages will weigh more.
*)(I, for example, bought Secret World during the sale, and also played it. Of course, this is just anecdotical, not data)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
And what does the fact that the Average number of players playing STO through Steam have stayed relatively consistent for over 2 years tell you?
July, 2012: 1,717 monthly player average.
July, 2013: 1.788 monthly player average.
July, 2014: 1,640 monthly player average.
December, 2014: 1,774 monthly player average.
What it tells me is that the people who want to play STO on Steam have continued to do so consistently for over 2 years. Some people pop in and try it and then leave, but the core base has changed very little over the years.
I did not argue what is occurring with the population one way or the other. I simply stated that the numbers are relevant despite what Cryptic says.
mustrumridcully0 I'm just ignoring your irrelevant strawmanning.
And what does the fact that the Average number of players playing STO through Steam have stayed relatively consistent for over 2 years tell you?
July, 2012: 1,717 monthly player average.
July, 2013: 1.788 monthly player average.
July, 2014: 1,640 monthly player average.
December, 2014: 1,774 monthly player average.
What it tells me is that the people who want to play STO on Steam have continued to do so consistently for over 2 years. Some people pop in and try it and then leave, but the core base has changed very little over the years.
Comparing one of the lowest pop month in the entire year to a more or less normal month ? Yeah right...
Summer is always the most empty time for any MMOs. That's not new.
July-August are when MMO are dry. Waiting for the september rain.
As for december, while you have less players with Christmas and all, you still have more. They just play less mostly.
Also, you have the christmas event, which is probably more important than the summer event. Just saying.
Also, both the peak AND the average number of player are important. A fact that both side loves to forget.
Average vs peak means people log in, play 5mins, log off (during prime time, people log in, and log off, so you never really increase the peak number because some people log at 7pm, others at 8, and the first wave is already gone). If people stayed for hours, like they did for LoR, the peak player would be much higher.
Peak is very low, average is fine. Which means people didn't enjoy DR as much as LoR, spending hours to play. However, they still log in. But they merely do their daily project or whatever.
Steamcharts doesn't give the most important information. How many players logged in for a particular day and how long they were on. There are lots of players that log in for just 15 minutes to do Doffing and R&D. Steamcharts just shows the maximum amount of players that were on at the same time for that day and how many players are on at a particular time depending on which scale you use. Therefore, 20,000 players could have logged in through Steam for a particular day, but it could show only 1,000.
You guys need to understand something: Overall Cryptic/PWE COULD CARE LESS about how many are playing pre se. What they care about is how many players are continuing to spend real cash purchasing Zen. <--- That's the main metric PWE cares about, so as long as that's either up; OR the existing players who spend spend MORE then before DR; in PWE's eyes:
"Delta Rising is the best STO expansion ever; and the players love it."
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Comparing one of the lowest pop month in the entire year to a more or less normal month ? Yeah right...
July was picked because it was the first month that Steam started keeping STO statistics. Thus I showed it's first month and its subsequent number each year after that first month. But anyone can look at the Average and see the only major deviation is when Expansions are released.
Of the 30 months listed from Steam's data 19 of them have populations between 1,500 and 1,900. 8 months had a population of 2,000 or more - and 4 of those were surrounding Expansion Packs. Steams' numbers are quite consistent.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
No. I am saying that based on the provided data Steam's Average number of players on STO per month is around 1,700, and has been for years. There are some bumps when new Expansions come out but then it falls back to the Average a couple of months later.
How is the average calculated? You can't base anything on something you don't understand.
At the least, peak is easy to understand, its the same time of day, it raises on the weekends, drops like a rock on the weekdays. We know what peak is, what it means, and how they calculate it, much less how many people are ready to pounce on the game when its maintenace by keeping the launcher open. Average? Mean, median, mode? We don't even know that.
You need to ask Steam. It is their data. They listed it for anyone to see.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
How is the average calculated? You can't base anything on something you don't understand.
At the least, peak is easy to understand, its the same time of day, it raises on the weekends, drops like a rock on the weekdays. We know what peak is, what it means, and how they calculate it, much less how many people are ready to pounce on the game when its maintenace by keeping the launcher open. Average? Mean, median, mode? We don't even know that.
Well, I suppose if you're just looking for something to sell irrational angry gamers so that they can continue to feel justified in that irrational anger, I suppose using numbers that are "simple" has a certain appeal. After all, you aren't actually interested in using real data to examine your perception that numbers are down, you are only really interested in finding numbers that support the narrative you want to sell, so that some unknowable time down the road when STO does inevitably close, you can look back and be "right" that the game was doomed. Bonus points for you if you can create so much negative press over your "outrage" that the developers presume to know better than you that you make STO's end a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Or, put another way - [zoidberg]your analysis is bad, and you should feel bad[/zoidberg].
Of the 30 months listed from Steam's data 19 of them have populations between 1,500 and 1,900. 8 months had a population of 2,000 or more - and 4 of those were surrounding Expansion Packs. Steams' numbers are quite consistent.
Oh yes. I don't think the players are leaving the game, and it's DOOOOOMED. I just say they log for much less than what they did for LoR. Thus low peak, average average (no pun intended) number of player.
How is the average calculated? You can't base anything on something you don't understand.
I think it's daily (total number of player for the day/24hours), then those daily average player are added, and then divided by the number of days in the month.
They don't care what Steam statistics show. To quote (though likely not word-for-word) "steam statisics only show players who log into STO using steam". And they believe such players to be in a minority.
Steam players as a minority? I know PWE have their collective heads up their own backside, but that's just play Denial.
Who do they think they're kidding with such BS? If they think we're buying it, they're more dumb than they think we are.
Steam players as a minority? I know PWE have their collective heads up their own backside, but that's just play Denial.
Who do they think they're kidding with such BS? If they think we're buying it, they're more dumb than they think we are.
The most players from Steam ever on STO was 7,402. If you believe Steam is not a minority of players then you also believe there has never been more then 14,803 people playing STO ever.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
That shows the number of people who have the STO launcher booted, not the number of people actually logged in. It's entirely possible to log the launcher in to pull the patch off the server while maintenance is going on; you just can't get any further than that.
^This - a thousand times this.
My friends on Steam must think I play STO 18 hours a day, even though I go to work - putter around the house, etc etc. If my computer's on, the launcher is usually running, in case I want to do some doffing or something. If the launcher's running, my Steam says I'm currently playing.
So Steam's numbers cannot be used to prove squat.
What can be probably (no idea where Steam compiles this data) inferred though - is that Steam's numbers are inflatedif anything. Just some food for thought. Both sides of the never-ending argument have to sit back and think about that.
I don't think any numbers we have easy access to (steam or...well, guess that's all we got) can tell us what the health of the game is.
The most players from Steam ever on STO was 7,402. If you believe Steam is not a minority of players then you also believe there has never been more then 14,803 people playing STO ever.
Steam is THE biggest online gaming client on the planet! Arc WISHES their game client was as big as Steam's.
Steam is THE biggest online gaming client on the planet! Arc WISHES their game client was as big as Steam's.
I am certain this post is supposed to have some meaning but for the life of me I cannot find it.
Steam could have 50 million players. That does not mean all 50 million are playing STO. A does not equal B.
According to Steam's own system counter there are currently 2,400 people playing STO and almost 413,000 playing Dota 2. There are 50+ games with more current players on Steam right now. It is clear that STO is not Steam's biggest client - and from the various Peak data it never has been.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Steam numbers are absolutely worthless. The VAST majority of STO players do not use Steam, many have never even heard of Steam, and since the Steam numbers are inaccurate anyway (as has been pointed out by numerous other people in this thread) no one should ever take them seriously.
Is someone playing a broken record while others keep singing as if the skip and repeat never happened.
Because some many here keep going on as they don't know the truth already.
Maybe this is It just another sabotage thread to get people to stop playing STO.
The most players from Steam ever on STO was 7,402. If you believe Steam is not a minority of players then you also believe there has never been more then 14,803 people playing STO ever.
Lets go with the average your typically using of 1800. Considering that means at any point in time the average number of steam users logged in is that number, 1800. What is the average playtime of a player, an hour? Twenty minutes? Even if we just say 1 hour that 1800 average is representing 43200 accounts.
And that is assuming every player is logging in every day for an average of one hour. Personally I would estimate the steam chart represents a few hundred thousand STO accounts with highly variable rates of activity.
This does not imply the steam chart is representative of the STO population. I just think you guys consistently under value the popularity of steam for STO in these conversations.
This does not imply the steam chart is representative of the STO population. I just think you guys consistently under value the popularity of steam for STO in these conversations.
No. It simply means you guys over-estimate its importance.
As I posted above, Steam has games which routinely have 400,000 players - Dota 2's Peak today was over 800,000. STO's peak was when LoR came out and was 7,400. The more common Peak - looking at all the monthly data - is around 3,300 players for STO. STO is not a big player on Steam. I seriously doubt it represents even 5% of the overall player-base - though I have no statistics to back that up.
Even looking at the Peak numbers we see consistency:
When you remove the 7,400 from LoR and the 5,600 from DR STO is a game whose Peaks consistently run 3,000 to 3,500; and have done so for 2.5 years.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
STO is not a big player on Steam. I seriously doubt it represents even 5% of the overall player-base - though I have no statistics to back that up.
I think steam represents atleast 30% of the overall player-base though I have no statistics to back that up. Afterall even Arc doesn't have an exclusive ship like steam does :rolleyes:
I think steam represents atleast 30% of the overall player-base though I have no statistics to back that up. Afterall even Arc doesn't have an exclusive ship like steam does :rolleyes:
Keep in mind that not everyone uses ARC - I certainly do not. Plus the Steamrunner came out 2 years before ARC so not really connected in any way.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Steam numbers are absolutely worthless. The VAST majority of STO players do not use Steam, many have never even heard of Steam, and since the Steam numbers are inaccurate anyway (as has been pointed out by numerous other people in this thread) no one should ever take them seriously.
Steam numbers are only useful for showing trends. Looking at a Steam chart, I can easily see when each event has occurred and when content has been added to the game. However, if a person is a computer gamer that has been around for a couple of years, then they should have heard about Steam. You are right about not taking these numbers seriously. The only numbers that matter are the ones available to only Cryptic and PWE.
I think steam represents atleast 30% of the overall player-base though I have no statistics to back that up. Afterall even Arc doesn't have an exclusive ship like steam does :rolleyes:
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July, 2012: 1,717 monthly player average.
July, 2013: 1.788 monthly player average.
July, 2014: 1,640 monthly player average.
December, 2014: 1,774 monthly player average.
What it tells me is that the people who want to play STO on Steam have continued to do so consistently for over 2 years. Some people pop in and try it and then leave, but the core base has changed very little over the years.
If you go onto the Star Trek Online forums and ask the question:
"DO you prefer Star Wars or Star Trek", don't you think it's likely that a larger portion of forum users would vote "Star Trek".
Would you now infer that more people like Star Trek than Star Wars across the world?
If you don't - you have probably implicitly understood that there is a selection bias in your sample. If not, then you failed to account for the fact that of course the Star Trek Online forum is likely to attract people that care particular about Star Trek, so a general preference for Star Trek over other things is likely. You do not get a representative sample out of this, even if your sample size may be large enough.
People that use Steam can generally be assumed to be interested in a variety of games, since Steam is a platform designed to sell games of all kinds. Star Trek games are just one aspect of those games. But Star Trek games appeal to a particular subset of gamers -those interested in Star Trek, obviously. And these people do not have a strong incentive to use Steam - since it's not focused on Star Trek games (and I am not sure, but I think STO may actually be the only Star Trek game available there). That means tehse people often will use different channels to get into STO, which brings them to use the Arc launcher these days, and the old Cryptic launcher if they joined before Arc.
In addition, Steam is also a platform where the audience is affected by events that may not hold true for non-Steam players. For example, Steam is running sales, particularly around holiday seasons. This can attract people away from all kinds of F2P games, because, well, you don't need a sale to join a F2P game*, and a F2P game has generally no running subscription that you need to put to good use.
If you want to play only Star Trek games, certain "advantages" other games have don't matter to you - if STO is too grindy, but WoW isn't, it doesn't matter if you want a Star Trek game. WoW is still not Star Trek. For Steam players, that may generally have a broader interest in games, such advantages and disadvantages will weigh more.
*)(I, for example, bought Secret World during the sale, and also played it. Of course, this is just anecdotical, not data)
I did not argue what is occurring with the population one way or the other. I simply stated that the numbers are relevant despite what Cryptic says.
mustrumridcully0 I'm just ignoring your irrelevant strawmanning.
Summer is always the most empty time for any MMOs. That's not new.
July-August are when MMO are dry. Waiting for the september rain.
As for december, while you have less players with Christmas and all, you still have more. They just play less mostly.
Also, you have the christmas event, which is probably more important than the summer event. Just saying.
Also, both the peak AND the average number of player are important. A fact that both side loves to forget.
Average vs peak means people log in, play 5mins, log off (during prime time, people log in, and log off, so you never really increase the peak number because some people log at 7pm, others at 8, and the first wave is already gone). If people stayed for hours, like they did for LoR, the peak player would be much higher.
Peak is very low, average is fine. Which means people didn't enjoy DR as much as LoR, spending hours to play. However, they still log in. But they merely do their daily project or whatever.
You guys need to understand something: Overall Cryptic/PWE COULD CARE LESS about how many are playing pre se. What they care about is how many players are continuing to spend real cash purchasing Zen. <--- That's the main metric PWE cares about, so as long as that's either up; OR the existing players who spend spend MORE then before DR; in PWE's eyes:
"Delta Rising is the best STO expansion ever; and the players love it."
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
You got none, and call the counter arguments strawmans. That's a good rhetorical tactic. I guess.
2012: Highest month: 1,790.
2012: Lowest month: 1,228
2013: Highest month: 2,656 (release of LoR)
2013: Lowest month: 1,547
2014: Highest month: 2,536 (release of DR)
2014: Lowest month: 1,401
Of the 30 months listed from Steam's data 19 of them have populations between 1,500 and 1,900. 8 months had a population of 2,000 or more - and 4 of those were surrounding Expansion Packs. Steams' numbers are quite consistent.
How is the average calculated? You can't base anything on something you don't understand.
At the least, peak is easy to understand, its the same time of day, it raises on the weekends, drops like a rock on the weekdays. We know what peak is, what it means, and how they calculate it, much less how many people are ready to pounce on the game when its maintenace by keeping the launcher open. Average? Mean, median, mode? We don't even know that.
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Well, I suppose if you're just looking for something to sell irrational angry gamers so that they can continue to feel justified in that irrational anger, I suppose using numbers that are "simple" has a certain appeal. After all, you aren't actually interested in using real data to examine your perception that numbers are down, you are only really interested in finding numbers that support the narrative you want to sell, so that some unknowable time down the road when STO does inevitably close, you can look back and be "right" that the game was doomed. Bonus points for you if you can create so much negative press over your "outrage" that the developers presume to know better than you that you make STO's end a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Or, put another way - [zoidberg]your analysis is bad, and you should feel bad[/zoidberg].
I help run two fleets and one person out of 960 people is using Steam.
It just real looks like you want to discourage people from playing the STO.
Hey look less people are playing on Steam lets go and join them in another game.
Chalk this up as another Sabotage Thread.
Raptr numbers show the total number of installs and active users.
Neither are encouraging at the moment.
I've yet to see anyone say that the steam numbers are the total numbers of STO players.
Oh yes. I don't think the players are leaving the game, and it's DOOOOOMED. I just say they log for much less than what they did for LoR. Thus low peak, average average (no pun intended) number of player.
I think it's daily (total number of player for the day/24hours), then those daily average player are added, and then divided by the number of days in the month.
Steam players as a minority? I know PWE have their collective heads up their own backside, but that's just play Denial.
Who do they think they're kidding with such BS? If they think we're buying it, they're more dumb than they think we are.
^This - a thousand times this.
My friends on Steam must think I play STO 18 hours a day, even though I go to work - putter around the house, etc etc. If my computer's on, the launcher is usually running, in case I want to do some doffing or something. If the launcher's running, my Steam says I'm currently playing.
So Steam's numbers cannot be used to prove squat.
What can be probably (no idea where Steam compiles this data) inferred though - is that Steam's numbers are inflatedif anything. Just some food for thought. Both sides of the never-ending argument have to sit back and think about that.
I don't think any numbers we have easy access to (steam or...well, guess that's all we got) can tell us what the health of the game is.
Steam is THE biggest online gaming client on the planet! Arc WISHES their game client was as big as Steam's.
There may be a large number of steam users, but that fact doesn't matter if the Venn diagram of "Steam users" and "STO players" has a tiny overlap.
Steam could have 50 million players. That does not mean all 50 million are playing STO. A does not equal B.
According to Steam's own system counter there are currently 2,400 people playing STO and almost 413,000 playing Dota 2. There are 50+ games with more current players on Steam right now. It is clear that STO is not Steam's biggest client - and from the various Peak data it never has been.
Is someone playing a broken record while others keep singing as if the skip and repeat never happened.
Because some many here keep going on as they don't know the truth already.
Maybe this is It just another sabotage thread to get people to stop playing STO.
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Lets go with the average your typically using of 1800. Considering that means at any point in time the average number of steam users logged in is that number, 1800. What is the average playtime of a player, an hour? Twenty minutes? Even if we just say 1 hour that 1800 average is representing 43200 accounts.
And that is assuming every player is logging in every day for an average of one hour. Personally I would estimate the steam chart represents a few hundred thousand STO accounts with highly variable rates of activity.
This does not imply the steam chart is representative of the STO population. I just think you guys consistently under value the popularity of steam for STO in these conversations.
As I posted above, Steam has games which routinely have 400,000 players - Dota 2's Peak today was over 800,000. STO's peak was when LoR came out and was 7,400. The more common Peak - looking at all the monthly data - is around 3,300 players for STO. STO is not a big player on Steam. I seriously doubt it represents even 5% of the overall player-base - though I have no statistics to back that up.
Even looking at the Peak numbers we see consistency:
July, 2012 Peak: 2,600
December, 2012 Peak: 3,300
July, 2013 Peak: 3,300
December, 2013 Peak: 4,100
July, 2014 Peak: 3,200
Today's Peak: 3,000
When you remove the 7,400 from LoR and the 5,600 from DR STO is a game whose Peaks consistently run 3,000 to 3,500; and have done so for 2.5 years.
I think steam represents atleast 30% of the overall player-base though I have no statistics to back that up. Afterall even Arc doesn't have an exclusive ship like steam does :rolleyes:
Steam numbers are only useful for showing trends. Looking at a Steam chart, I can easily see when each event has occurred and when content has been added to the game. However, if a person is a computer gamer that has been around for a couple of years, then they should have heard about Steam. You are right about not taking these numbers seriously. The only numbers that matter are the ones available to only Cryptic and PWE.
Wow, you must live in a terribly paranoid world.
Arclight-class [REDACTED] incoming.
And they can't get the queues filled? LoL i never had the feeling of playing together with that many. My impression was a couple of thousands.
However. i dont really play it anymore, so it doesn't matter.
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