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seifer1701
Member Posts: 109 Arc User
So twice tonight i've seen players in Discon advanced that couldn't even get through borg probe shields, let alone kill one. 
Day after day there's 2-3 people in Conduit with 2-9k dps. :eek:
Cure space i'll watch 4 players crowd Kang and can't kill a single ship without dying multiple times. :eek:
Azure advanced, where people typically break off into two groups, one lets the whole team down because they simiply cannot kill the gaurding tholians, nor do they know how to move them away.
This is so frustrating when to no fault of my own I cannot pass a single PVE because many players simply do not belong in advanced or elite matches. (yes i make mistakes too) But a party full of 2k dps players in infected space advanced is ridiculous. It ruins the gameplay experience for everyone. It slaps a 30m-1hr cooldown depending on the match on players who know what they're doing and should not be penalized for getting stuck in a party full of people who do not.
It's VERY difficult to explain a match to players while you're also trying to keep it from failing. And I've been trying to explain Disconnected advance/elite to people since the week it was launched, in a respectful, helpful tone, and 90% ignore it. I have watched others try to explain with the same results.
With respect to most: Many of us are not ok with turning to the dps channels for reasons from constant trolling and bashing, to if all the experienced players run private matches how will new players ever learn anything? (a member in my fleet was banned after an arguement started when his boff and skilltray were MIA due to the unceasing bug. I was just cussed at and trolled on yesterday for asking if anyone would like to join conduit adv, because I didn't refer to it as ISA)
This game SORELY needs a DPS check mechanic to block open participation in upper teir matches.
This could easily come in the form of "side questing", non-story related side missions that are designed to need a certain level of DPS to finish successfully, with no penalty for failure.
One possible idea could be Holodeck training simulations. You must pass certain training missions to unlock advance and elite stages of PVE. In these sims there could be basic explanations of dps building, like when to use FaW or CSV, and when not to. (not considering upcoming weapon mod changes) It could explain the usefullness of crit chance or severity for example. Power levels. Some of the very basic understandings that this game has always lacked via tutorial or missions.
This is an MMO I like the social side as much as anyone but we can't be expected to spend all our days explaining the same thing over and over to people who don't even bother to listen.
You can add content this way, you can add "ease of play" which you've been trying to get into with recent changes, you can promote the right attitudes (or at least prevent some bad ones), you could teach your incoming new players/payer$ a little about the game. A few simple short solo missions, perhaps even a couple that demand the player find help from 1 or more others could really change this game.
For my own part i've been seriously considering leaving the game because I just can't take it anymore. Really hope the dev team is at least willing to consider some kind of "dps check" mechanic to allows players to then advance to higher lvls of PVE.
Anyone else think something along these lines could be vitally useful?
Day after day there's 2-3 people in Conduit with 2-9k dps. :eek:
Cure space i'll watch 4 players crowd Kang and can't kill a single ship without dying multiple times. :eek:
Azure advanced, where people typically break off into two groups, one lets the whole team down because they simiply cannot kill the gaurding tholians, nor do they know how to move them away.
This is so frustrating when to no fault of my own I cannot pass a single PVE because many players simply do not belong in advanced or elite matches. (yes i make mistakes too) But a party full of 2k dps players in infected space advanced is ridiculous. It ruins the gameplay experience for everyone. It slaps a 30m-1hr cooldown depending on the match on players who know what they're doing and should not be penalized for getting stuck in a party full of people who do not.
It's VERY difficult to explain a match to players while you're also trying to keep it from failing. And I've been trying to explain Disconnected advance/elite to people since the week it was launched, in a respectful, helpful tone, and 90% ignore it. I have watched others try to explain with the same results.
With respect to most: Many of us are not ok with turning to the dps channels for reasons from constant trolling and bashing, to if all the experienced players run private matches how will new players ever learn anything? (a member in my fleet was banned after an arguement started when his boff and skilltray were MIA due to the unceasing bug. I was just cussed at and trolled on yesterday for asking if anyone would like to join conduit adv, because I didn't refer to it as ISA)
This game SORELY needs a DPS check mechanic to block open participation in upper teir matches.
This could easily come in the form of "side questing", non-story related side missions that are designed to need a certain level of DPS to finish successfully, with no penalty for failure.
One possible idea could be Holodeck training simulations. You must pass certain training missions to unlock advance and elite stages of PVE. In these sims there could be basic explanations of dps building, like when to use FaW or CSV, and when not to. (not considering upcoming weapon mod changes) It could explain the usefullness of crit chance or severity for example. Power levels. Some of the very basic understandings that this game has always lacked via tutorial or missions.
This is an MMO I like the social side as much as anyone but we can't be expected to spend all our days explaining the same thing over and over to people who don't even bother to listen.
You can add content this way, you can add "ease of play" which you've been trying to get into with recent changes, you can promote the right attitudes (or at least prevent some bad ones), you could teach your incoming new players/payer$ a little about the game. A few simple short solo missions, perhaps even a couple that demand the player find help from 1 or more others could really change this game.
For my own part i've been seriously considering leaving the game because I just can't take it anymore. Really hope the dev team is at least willing to consider some kind of "dps check" mechanic to allows players to then advance to higher lvls of PVE.
Anyone else think something along these lines could be vitally useful?
Post edited by seifer1701 on
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Whilst I do agree that getting people to run normals before progressing to advanced/elites might not be that bad of an idea. But on the other hand , just look at how many fleets don't bother helping members prepare for these end game missions. The problem is I've seen other players fly off the handle at new players, sometimes for even asking to for help or stating that they're unfamiliar with the mission. But again I've seen and personally know a few players with science builds that struggle to reach 10k, but I'll guarantee that they can shut down almost everything they come across in PvE. So everyone else can waltz over and pulverize targets.
First off, let me say I'm not a DPS chaser. I've got a tac captain flying a AP DHC Kumari. I don't know what it's DPS is beyond it's way more than the one I'm using in my below example. I just find my Eng/Sci toon more fun to play. I haven't run ISA in probably over a year (definitely not since Delta Rising) so I couldn't tell you what kind of DPS I run on that but I know DPS numbers run higher on that mission than some others. Maybe I'll run it when I get home just to see where I'm at. The only STF's I run these days is Bug Hunt and Borg Disconnected. However, I started running CLR simply because I was frustrated by STF's taking so long to finish or were flat out failing. If I was the problem, I wanted to know.
Based on the results I'm seeing, I agree something needs to be done. I'm playing an Engineer Captain flying an Aux power Vesta. I put very little thought into DPS, it was primarily built for tanking and control. On the ground, I went for a balance between damage and survival.
Borg Disconnected (non-Advanced/Elite): I average around 6k-8k DPS lately. I don't think that's horrible for the type of build I'm running. I would say maybe 1 run in 20 I'm not first place in both total damage and DPS, usually by a wide margin. On average, I make up 45-50% of the damage table. And this is with me running web mines on the rear doing 1200 damage per pulse which aren't picked up by CLR. Most of the time I don't say anything because I don't want to be "that" guy.
However, for example, the last run I did there was a Tac captain flying an escort. At the end of the match he finished at 538dps. That's not a typo. The only way I can think of for you to get that low of DPS without just idling (which he wasn't) is to be running low level gear. I mean sub-Mk XII Commons.
Bug Hunt (Elite): This is the only mission I run purely on Elite as I only PUG and even with PUG's you can finish it. Same ENG captain. I average 260dps on this mission. Again, 90% of the time I place first by DPS and total damage. There's usually at LEAST 1 person under 100dps. I've seen as low as 65dps. 65dps. That's just hard to explain.
I don't think a minimum DPS is the answer though, especially since DPS varies greatly by mission and some missions still benefit from a non-pure DPS focused build (ie a control build). However, I think having a gear level check for Advanced/Elite might help as some of these people HAVE to be insufficiently geared for the mission they are in as that's the only way to explain the ridiculously low DPS.
That said, to play devils advocate here's where I feel the other side of the problem comes in... The MORE DPS crowd is just as bad for the game. I looked at the DPS League Leaderboard recently and it blew my mind. 170k dps. Is the game even fun at that point? Don't get me wrong, major props to the people who have figured out how to make those kinds of numbers. I can't even fathom that level of damage output or how you even get to that. That said I keep seeing people such as the OP (sorry, not trying to single you out) complaining about people not even pulling 10k DPS in STF's. I don't seem to be doing that, so I hit up zone chat in a couple of areas to ask for tips last week. Let me sum up the responses you get.
1) You suck, play better
2) You are doing it wrong
3) You aren't running all fleet gear, you should just stop playing
4) You have gear that's not very rare or better, your build sucks
I was very specific in what I asked. I explained what I was flying and my preferred play style. All my gear is MK XIV, VR or better. I had 1 person, literally just 1, that provided any advice that didn't involve completely changing how I play the game. For the record, I did change my build based on that persons suggestions. Two separate people flat out told me I was an idiot for flying a science ship. Besides the attitude problem, two other problems jumped out at me.
1) Fleet gear. I'm running 3x MK XIV Ultra Rare Phaser Relays and 1x MK XIV Epic Phaser Relay in my 4 tac console slots. That seemed pretty respectable to me. What was I told? "You need to run the fleet version". Newsflash! Not everyone is in a maxed out fleet. If you HAVE to be in a maxed out fleet to meet the "minumum" DPS numbers, that's a problem with the game. I have my own small fleet of friends I know in person. I have no interest in dropping that to join a fleet of a bunch of people I don't know just so I can use their store. There's a whole separate set of issues that brings as well.
2) Only the absolute highest quality of gear is acceptable. I'm talking item rarity here, not mark. I completely agree that you should be running the appropriate mark gear for your mission. Rarity however... Weapons it's one thing. The procs can make a huge difference. But jumping on someone because they are only running rare consoles? What's the bonus difference between a rare and an epic weapons console? About 2% if memory serves. Even if you're running 5 tac consoles, that's a less than 10% difference total. I fail to see how 140% increase vs a 150% increase (5 consoles at 30% each) is having a huge affect on your gameplay.
Here's what I would propose for the "MORE DPS" crowd that is unhappy with what they get teamed up with in PUG groups. First off, calm the eff down. I get having a mission tank is frustrating. I get seeing people blow the gens early EVERY, SINGLE, TIME, makes you want to scream. I've been there. I'll even admit I lost my cool a couple of times back in the past. But a lot of this crowd acts like their life has been ruined because the mission was failed. "ZOMG now I can't do this mission again for an hour! I hate you all and hope you die a horrible death". Let's be serious here. It's one mission. In a game. With no prizes. Take a deep breath and just do another mission. There's no trophy for the fastest time to hit T5 in a rep tree.
Secondly, make a thread with with builds that meet your 10k DPS criteria, but with the following caveats for casual players because the advice you get in game doesn't work for casual players.
1) It cannot require fleet/rep/zen gear or ships. You can't require rep gear to do the missions that are required to get said gear in the first place. I've covered the issue with fleets and if you can't do this without fleet gear, there's a problem with the game. You can recommend improving the build with fleet/rep/zen stuff but you should absolutely be able to meet the "minimums" with a free build. Only exception I make is the dilithium cost to level up your gear to MK XIV because grinding enough EC to buy all MK XIV gear on the exchange isn't an option for some people.
2) List has to include non-escort builds. This is a game. People are supposed to have fun playing it. Some people simply don't enjoy the escort style of game play. If this "minimum" can't be done without flying an escort as a tac captain, again, that's a problem with the game.
Totally agree, and would also add: neither side ever makes any concessions to the other when these threads erupt on here.
Edit/ Well, coupla people do, but the majority do not.
Zone chat is the virtual equivalent of shouting on the street, so those responses are exactly what you should expect.
There are chat channels dedicated to the subject of DPS. I haven't been in any so I don't know their level of civilized conversation, but its most likely better than in zone.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1351061
Unfortunately, casual players don't tend to read the forums.
The game needs proper in-game instructions and/or tutorials about ship builds and feedback about your performance that does not require a third-party external DPS calculator.
I can't take you seriously, I'm sorry. The 'uber-dps'ers do not hang out in zone, chat, and are incredibly helpful. For example, look at the Advanced Builds section of the /r/stobuilds wiki, a section complied by sarcasmdetector. Or look at Bagel's book of builds, by another nealry 80k fed captain. Or ask in one of the actual dps-channels. We're helpful people, so long as you actually ask in an area where we are. And in pugs, the 'uber-dps'ers can carry the pug, and don't complain that you're not making it.
Or here, look at the /r/stobuilds wiki starter build section. The gear on all of those is less than 1 million ec combined for that ship, all of those are 10k+ ships.
And I assure you, it's a ton of fun.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
I have to admit I was kind of surprised by some of the basic questions that I've seen asked in 10k...but it was pretty nifty to see folks just answering away as if it were no big deal to help those folks out. Pretty insane level of patience and general helpfulness...kind of trippy, imho.
You might be surprised. They may know more about the subject, but smugness usually gets cranked up to 12.
I completely agree regarding the instructions/tutorials, that's always been a problem area for STO.
Regarding your link, there's no actual builds in that thread. I used the word build very specifically. The reason I'm sticking on this point is that my build meets all of his advice until you get to this:
This right here is the point I was trying to make. Every single guide I've seen gives you a bunch of generic advice explaining DPS really isn't that hard. Nothing wrong with that and as a general rule it's all good advice. But then, they talk about BOFF's/abilities and it's like they never actually flown anything other than an Tac captain in an Escort. Look at the T5 science vessels.
The recon and mirror recon are the "best" in that they give you an ensign and lt tac stations and 3 tac console slots. That gives you a grand total of 3 tac abilities. You aren't doubling up on an attack pattern and some other tac ability with only 3 ability slots. The other 4 science vessels have a single lt slot. Some of the paid ships aren't any better. The T6 Scryer is a single lt/int slot. Most of the T5 cruisers aren't any better.
I want to see someone from the DPS is easy crowd posting an actual build of a T5 science vessel, preferably with an eng or sci captain that's parsing 10k DPS with regular MK XII gear. Unless ISA parses WAY higher than STF's like Disconnected (I have no idea if it does), I don't see it given I'm only parsing 6k-8k on my Vesta.
Look at the two Fed ships in that link. One is the Heavy Escort Carrier which is a Zen ship and is running a second Zen console. The other is running the Plasmonic Leech console which is currently running 30 million EC by itself as well as fleet consoles. The only build in that list that is actually free is the Obelisk, which I must admit, I wouldn't have thought would be so high.
ISA actually parses higher than other PvEs.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Yes, there are players that suck at PvE content, but having said that, DPS is not the answer to your problems. The whole DPS centric mentality is what got us into this whole DR mess we're in. There are players that really don't want to run a max DPS build because:
1) No, there is no rule that says tac consoles slots must never be used for anything except tac consoles. A sci player may want to put there universal consoles that boost some sci skill the same way you want to improve damage
2) It gets boring running pure DPS after a while. Surgical strikes and TS3 has become an I win combination and where is the fun in that.
3) Dishing out pure DPS is not the only way to run a successful ship, even in PvE.
I do place blame on developers because, in their mind, hiking target's hull/shields automatically makes them tougher, but that only applies to players that don't go all DPS crazy. If NPCs used engineering and science abilities in a meaningful way, the DPS crowd would have to actually adapt and move away from just pressing that spacebar over and over.