Vesta Aux cannons

eighrichte

Greetings all -- I was poking through some builds over at the Academy build-sharing tool, and I noticed that almost nobody seems to be using the Vesta's aux cannons. Even people who are using phasers aren't using the aux cannons. It seems like a perfect setup -- load up two Mk XII's plus a neutron or gravimetric torp in front, do whatever in back, keep weapon power low and aux power high, and it seems like you should get decent damage out of the front weapon slots and still have all the power you need for strong science abilities. Is that just not a good idea for some reason I'm missing?

tom61sto

They're still pretty decent, just the [acc]x2[dmg] on them isn't as good as crit modifiers for PvE and it's fairly easy to have decent weapons power and Aux at the same time (a nice W->A Overcharged core works wonders, and combine with AMACO for idle power of around 75 Aux at 100 Weapons setting).

They might make a comeback with the new Secondary Deflectors coming, though. Inhibiting and Deteriorating both do damage based on Aux and Particle Gens, so 135 Aux (Obelisk core) builds might be worthwhile to shoot for.

eighrichte

Cool, thanks.

Assuming you're running 135 Aux and the full Vesta console set, I assume you'd want to do something like:

• 3x aux phasers front
• 1x omni directional phaser back for subsystem targeting
• 2x phaser turret back
• 3x phaser vulnerability locators

That leaves five open science console slots, assuming the vesta consoles are in the engineering slots. I expect you'd want a [PrtG] exotic particle field exciter in one of them. For the rest, do you want universal consoles that boost power, CrtH, and CrtD, do you want a row of particle gen consoles, or do you want to mix them up?

tom61sto

eighrichte wrote: »

Cool, thanks.

Assuming you're running 135 Aux and the full Vesta console set, I assume you'd want to do something like:

• 3x aux phasers front
• 1x omni directional phaser back for subsystem targeting
• 2x phaser turret back
• 3x phaser vulnerability locators

That leaves five open science console slots, assuming the vesta consoles are in the engineering slots. I expect you'd want a [PrtG] exotic particle field exciter in one of them. For the rest, do you want universal consoles that boost power, CrtH, and CrtD, do you want a row of particle gen consoles, or do you want to mix them up?

Yeah, 3x fore Aux Phasers or 2x Aux Phasers and a good effect torp (Gravimetric, Neutronic, or Bio-Molecular). Aft I'd go with Omni Phaser Beam, Kinetic Cutting Beam (good kinetic source if you're not running torps, even without the 2-set bonus), and the Heavy Bio-Molecular Phaser Turret (for two-set bonus, and good cycle for power draw)

Console wise, particularly if you're running the three-set of Vesta consoles, I'd only go with Hydrodynamics Compensator (for two-set bonus and +3 Aux and Engine power) and Plasmonic Leech (if you have it), with the possibility of running the Assimilated Module (two-set bonus, crit bonus, Gravitons) at the most for Universals. Everything else Particle Generators, preferably the Plasma-Generating/[Pla] Embassy ones for the weapons DoT beyond the one Exotic Exciter you're allowed.

I'm very tempted to drop down the Vesta Universals to just the deflector-Phaser and put any other Universals in the Eng slots. You might even consider grabbing a Conductive RCS [PrtG] for even more Particle Gens if you're running only two Universals total on three-Engineering console Vesta.

Top it off with either an Inhibiting or Deteriorating Secondary Deflector with [PrtG] and appropriate modifiers for what Science abilities you'll be using, once those get added with the Anniversary update.

ddesjardins

I've played with different cannon loadout combinations including going 3x Aux cannons. At the end of the day, beam arrays proved to be better even with a reduced AUX damage bonus from reputation.

This doesn't mean you can't have a great cannon build as it mean ignoring subsystem targeting. I may relook at it now that we can have a 360 phaser array.

tom61sto

ddesjardins wrote: »

I've played with different cannon loadout combinations including going 3x Aux cannons. At the end of the day, beam arrays proved to be better even with a reduced AUX damage bonus from reputation.

This doesn't mean you can't have a great cannon build as it mean ignoring subsystem targeting. I may relook at it now that we can have a 360 phaser array.

Weapons DPS is still going to be higher beams and FAW beam arrays than CSV and Aux cannons due to the number of enemies beams can hit with their arcs, and that unless you starve Shields and/or Engine Power your rear weapons are running ~40-55 power before drains return and procs boost it.

With the Secondary Deflector being added to the Vesta, the damage might be made up by the Deteriorating or Inhibiting procs. Someone posted a Scryer build that was doing 35k+ and a good chunk of that was from the Deteriorating Secondary Deflector Mk X common. Though, the Vesta doesn't have the Intel toys the Scryer does. With OSS2 it's possible, and not terribly hard, to hit 161 Aux, something the Vesta can't match. If it's not able to close the damage gap, 135 Aux is still fun to run. It will require quite a bit of tweaking just to figure out exactly how much Secondary Deflectors can give and how to work BOffs to leverage them the best.

eighrichte

I've been fiddling around with a Neutronic torp (just a Mk XII) for a couple of days, using just HY1 plus the Sheshar trait. It's a laugh riot the way it lights up the whole sky when it goes off, but I feel like if I have a torp in that slot, I need to beef it up with some skill points, and then I'm spreading them pretty thin trying to cover energy, projectile, and science skills. I do tend to run 2x Advanced MACO for the +Aux and crew protection, and the deflector seems reasonably good for science, so having a torp lets me take advantage of that +25% torpedo bonus. Plus, I do have access to the Sheshar trait. But is that just making for a totally unfocused build? Or is it reasonable to use the torp without any torpedo skills, and just let particle gen skill buff its radiation?

Edit: Also, as it happens, I have a pair of turrets with [Rapid] that I was planning to put in the back (next to an Omni beam). Is that an effective way to get more out of the Aux cannons? It's not clear to me whether they have a chance to proc per shot or per volley.

tom61sto

I'd hold on the torp decision. I usually have torps as a dump stat, but the new Command tree has some interesting stuff in the early parts, you can have shield drain on your torps (applied to whichever facing they hit) in as less than 5 Spec Points, plus the new exploit mechanics for energy weapons and torp combos.

As for the [rapid], try un-upgraded cheap ones for a bit and see how often they proc for you, then upgrade or buy better if it works well. I'm pretty sure the proc is per-cycle, so you'd need at least 2 to get it with any frequency. I didn't notice it very often with just one on my D'Deridex, but that's running single Aux2Batt and Bioneural Gel Packs and so has pretty high up time on it's CSV.

eighrichte

Yeah, good point on the command tree stuff. I'll play around with the turrets and see if they do anything for me.

Thanks for all the input!

lordsteve1

The aux DHC's I find are a good way to learn how to use the Vesta if you've not flown a ship like this before, by learning how to use sci powers and weapon DPS at the same time.

Then once you have the basic principles sorted (piloting, weapons arcs, when to fire off abilities) you can swap them out for another flavour or even beams and you'll probably get more out of the ship.

At least that's how I felt, used the aux ones to start, got used to flying the ship and then slowly adjusted my power levels to a stage where I was comfortable swapping out to fleet DHCs.
I've now got higher DPS than I could get with the aux DHCs and i'm more used to juggling my power levels so the energy drain is not an issue (plus i have a plasmonic leech console now).

Mind you with the omni beam arrays now it's actually not too shabby going all beams with maybe one torp like the grav torp or particle emission one. Main reason for going cannons for me was to get all my gun firing forwards as the ship has limited firepower. But now I can slot 2 antiproton omni's together with arrays fwd. I can get the same effect and take advantage of sub-system targeting.

However....I've always found that at least on my Vesta build (focusing on grav well CC and the TS once shields are down) cannons are better due to the concentrated arc of firepower. Beams using BFAW spreads you're shots in places you don't want to be shooting, that lowers the effectiveness of the build I find. That is just my personal opinion based on my build though.

hyperionx09

Aux DHCs also have limited usefulness not just due to their procs, but due to the fact that being cannon weapons, they have inferior damage at range (exceeding 4km) and an especially narrow firing arc compared to Beam weapons.

As far as torpedoes themselves go; a number of high damage Sci builds go full torpedo boat with 1-2 Omnis for Subsystem targeting (either double AP as a carryover from some other build or one standard Omni and a mine, another torpedo, or the Thoron-infused Polaron Rep weapon for the Isokinetic Cannon) and the KCB + Assimilated Console.

eighrichte

Thanks again, everyone.

I'm going to take a long-term two-stage approach to this. Initially, I'm going to build the ship out with 2 aux cannons and a neutronic torp in front, an omni phaser and two turrets with [rapid] in the back. I'm replacing tachyon beam with either scramble or jam sensors so that all four of my offensive science boff abilities work with the same secondary deflector, and then start seeing how much I can buff up the phasers and particle generators without sacrificing too much power and Crit from consoles.

In the future, when Andorian phasers become craftable (got a reply from Geko on Twitter indicating that it's on the drawing board, awaiting some new tech), I'll rebuild around a more beam-oriented setup. Primarily because I just like Andorian phasers, and presumably crafted varieties will have more desirable stats.

coffeemike

I use AP Beams with my tac Vesta and it works nicely with BFAW & Torp Spread after hitting GW3.

eighrichte

Has anyone else upgraded the aux cannons? I was under the impression that CritX was only available on ground weapons (that's what the wiki says, anyway). But one of my aux cannons went to ultra-rare at Mk XIII, and sure enough, it gained CritX, +2% crit chance/+10% crit severity. Wondering if that's a fixed stat on upgrade, or if I just got lucky.