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Sarr Theln tank build
jbmaverick
Member Posts: 935 Arc User
Trying to build a tank out of the new Sarr Theln and looking for suggestions to improve it. A few things to note first:
I am NOT looking for some uber dps build. I don't care if Elite end-game content requires uber dps, I'm looking to be a functional tank in advanced content, that means a good combination of damage and defense. The people I generally play with are not uber dpsers, but most of them at least know what they're doing so I still need decent damage output to go with my threat control and fleet sci consoles.
I have not yet begun upgrading most of my equipment to Mk14, so I don't have much invested and am willing to consider switching certain pieces out. In particular I'll be looking at replacing the Hydrodynamics console with a Conductive RCS console once I can craft a good one.
I have most of the reputations at tier 5, Delta is about a week from tier 5, Fleet has just about maxed out everything so I have access to just about anything suggested, my EC count is a bit low though so I can't afford huge expenses from the exchange.
My previous ship was a JHDC that could reach about 10k dps (never really parsed it, just have partial parses from others), but Reciprocity has rendered its Tac-heavy Boff layout somewhat redundant (and I still don't have JHAS frigates for often-discussed reasons), thus why I'm looking at switching ships, although I haven't decided if the Sarr Theln will be that replacement. Haven't acquired any ship traits outside of the Phantom and Sarr Theln ones, planning on getting the Eclipse next when I can afford it, still (slowly) working my way through specializations.
Boff traits and Doffs are listed in the description.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sarrthelntank_0
I am NOT looking for some uber dps build. I don't care if Elite end-game content requires uber dps, I'm looking to be a functional tank in advanced content, that means a good combination of damage and defense. The people I generally play with are not uber dpsers, but most of them at least know what they're doing so I still need decent damage output to go with my threat control and fleet sci consoles.
I have not yet begun upgrading most of my equipment to Mk14, so I don't have much invested and am willing to consider switching certain pieces out. In particular I'll be looking at replacing the Hydrodynamics console with a Conductive RCS console once I can craft a good one.
I have most of the reputations at tier 5, Delta is about a week from tier 5, Fleet has just about maxed out everything so I have access to just about anything suggested, my EC count is a bit low though so I can't afford huge expenses from the exchange.
My previous ship was a JHDC that could reach about 10k dps (never really parsed it, just have partial parses from others), but Reciprocity has rendered its Tac-heavy Boff layout somewhat redundant (and I still don't have JHAS frigates for often-discussed reasons), thus why I'm looking at switching ships, although I haven't decided if the Sarr Theln will be that replacement. Haven't acquired any ship traits outside of the Phantom and Sarr Theln ones, planning on getting the Eclipse next when I can afford it, still (slowly) working my way through specializations.
Boff traits and Doffs are listed in the description.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sarrthelntank_0
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Post edited by jbmaverick on
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For taking damage, the best Deflector/Impulse Combo is either Dyson or Borg. I prefer Borg, but there is no wrong answer, both great sets.
For consoles, the Bio-Neural Gel Pack isn't doing much since you have Reciprocity. Since your other consoles are adding threat to attract attention, I would look to bolster your shields a bit. Personally, I would drop the Bio Neural Gel Pack and the Hydrodynamics Compensator, move the Assimilated Console up to Engineering and add an Exotic Particle Field Exciter and a Field Generator into your Science Consoles. That would give you a sizable increase in shield capacity as well as some extra damage on your Gravity Wells.
A good point on the Bio-Neural, between my Doffs and Reciprocity I'm not getting much benefit from it, I'll have to look into a good Field Exciter.
Any suggestions on changing up my Doffs or better Boff traits or even personal traits? I know there's quite a few traits out there that I haven't yet acquired (most of them from lock boxes) and probably more than a few that I don't know about.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
There are some nifty things in there that it gives you.
One of the tabs is Hits In, which will show you the number of Attacks the NPCs have aimed at you compared to the other player - the percentage and so forth. You can use this to gauge whether you feel if you're attracting enough of the attacks in a run. So if it's a case that the percentage isn't as high as you'd like for being a tank, you could take a look at ways to increase your overall "AoE threat" - changing targets more often, positioning, and generally just getting all those pesky mobs to shoot at you more sort of thing. Can also see how many are missing, since missed damage is 100% resisted damage...wheeeee.
There's a Damage In tab, where you can see the BaseDamage compared to the actual damage you took. You can see the Shield and Hull damage you took. You can see where you average damage resistance and the like might be falling.
There are Heal Out/Heal In tabs, where you can compare the amount of healing that you're doing - the self-healing and compare that to the damage that you're taking.
With the last two there, you could make adjustments if it's a case that you're perhaps overhealing for the actual damage you're taking...which could lead to increasing the threat you generate otherwise, increasing that percentage of attacks that you're taking.
It's more than just a DPS parser...it can provide all sorts of stuff to help with what you're looking at trying to do. With that info in hand, you can start to make various gear choices - before spending resources upgrading stuff that might not be helping you do what you're trying to do.
It's like some stuff I took a look at recently for another thread with my Sarr Theln build.
With my self-healing and damage in, I'm at a pretty comfortable spot. My percentage of damage taken vs. basedamage is something I'm also comfortable with. Where I feel I'm lacking though is in percentage of attacks - only 40-60% or so of the attacks. So I need to see what adjustments I can make to increase that percentage. Am I perhaps too comfortable somewhere else, so I can take away from there - not running FAW obviously means I'm not getting the aggro I should, heh - so yeah - I should take a look at things like that. But it's just a case of how CLR can be an effective tool for more than just DPS for folks working on different things.
Here's an image showing two of the tabs and what I'm kind of talking about there with the info it can give you to help with the build: http://i.imgur.com/8Ue3x95.png
Edit: I really should be Googling that sort of thing before asking, found it.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Wow, thank you! That's a much better stat than damage in, because of resistances and defense. It also shows a bit more interesting of an aggro split - if one person in the run was shot at 6 times... also, if I have higher defense, I can see that, and really cool stuff.
For example, after one run when one high-dps captain complained his reciprocity didn't proc, it's because he only was missed 32 times in a 187 second run, which isn't going to be enough to keep a ship going.
O it's funny to look at one parse I had pre-dr, and see that the other 4 teammates took a total of 52 attacks in a 6:12 run...
Interesting, for sure. It'd be even more cool to take out all the aoe abilities (like FAW and TS) and see how many attacks I could have aggro'd that I didn't.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
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Swapping out to the Borg set and Dyson shield does seem to have helped a bit as well, so thanks for that suggestion. Still need to get replacement consoles, but it's a good start.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Well of course you're against someone out-dps'ing you, that's what makes aggro a challenge. Part of it's timing and positioning - if you don't have FAW active when a new group of enemies warps in, or when you get in range, or if you don't get in range first, you won't be able to effectively aggro them. That's one of the interesting things about a tank with a commander or at least lt. com sci: you have more than just FAW for aoe aggro skills.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
True enough, which is partially why I like the Sarr Theln as a prospective tank. Additionally, that parse was for Crystalline Catastrophe, and the Entity doesn't really pay attention to aggro so at least some of the hits to allies were from it. The one player in my team who was out-dpsing me wasn't doing significantly more than me (like I said, I mostly play with a bunch of casuals) and did say afterwards that the Tholians were largely ignoring him, so I feel I still did a pretty good job on aggro management, but as I said earlier I still feel I can do better. It's just going to come down to figuring out power timings and the like, and improving my equipment and maybe my officer powers.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Advanced_Engineering_Armor_Consoles
Having trouble finding page on the special crafting engineering consoles but they are nice.
If you are counting on reciprocity, you need to have the aggro to add up more chances to be missed. Without aggro, reciprocity is a wasted trait. As more people start using reciprocity, it may fade out of use for some that can't get enough aggro consistently.
I can forsee requests for no tanks in some DPS runs, just like waiting for pets, as a way to tilt aggro and misses toward some players attempting to reach a new personal DPS record by using reciprocity.
I'm still waiting on them to fix the Bio-Neural so it provides the +PWR...meh.
It's 7% CD reduction on BOFF abilities...well, basically it's a case of looking at CD / 1.07; so depending on the CD...45 becomes just over 42, 30 becomes just over 28...sort of thing. Where it can help is with maintaining the uptime on dual EPtX even with DCEs. Different CD reductions work in different ways. While the Bio-Neural is CD / 1.07, the DCE reduction is CD - (CD * 0.3). So that's dropping you from 45s to 31.5s...then work in the activation delay, and you're looking at 2s at least before considering any UI delays. With the Bio-Neural, that 45 is dropped to 42.056 or 42.1 as displayed. Which drops you down just to the 0.5s activation and any UI delays.
You're also getting the boost to shields from the Starship Shield Systems. Er, mine's only VR Mk XIII - so it's a +21 to the skill. With it being ~0.3% per point, that 21 would be +6.3% of the base shields. In my case, it takes shields from 15632 to 16149, an increase of 517 which may not seem like much...but if you take into account Shield Damage Reduction and the Effective Shield Capacity; I'm at 105 Shield Power, so that's 29.4% damage reduction, EPtS2 is providing 24%, my shields provide 10% energy, usually have a 4stack of Pattern for another 6%, Mastery3 on the Sarr Theln's another 5%...1 - ((1 - 0.294) * (1 - 0.24) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.06) * (1 - 0.05)) = 1 - (0.706 * 0.76 * 0.9 * 0.94 * 0.95) = 1 - 0.431233272 = 0.568766728 * 100 = 56.8766728% Shield Damage Reduction. So the ESC of that 517 would be 517 / (1 - 0.568766728) = 517 / 0.431233272 = 1198.887, which hopefully they round up to 1199. That's without RMC boosting Shield Power, taking into account what the Aux based TSS1 gives (varies), the reduction from hitting Sci Fleet (36%), the chance from the Conductive RCS (10%), as well as potentially having the 5stack from Nanoprobe Field Generator (25%). And well yeah, the Bio-Molecular Shield Generator (22%).
Would be nifty if the +PWR actually worked though...meh.
As for his Hull Damage Resistance...
6 Starship Threat Control +8.4 DRR (All)
6 Starship Hull Plating +12.6 DRR (Energy)
6 Starship Armor Reinforcements +12.6 DRR (Kinetic)
...he'd be looking at +21 DRR or ~17.3% DR.
With the Auxiliary Power Configuration Defense, depending on how high his Aux is - he could see up to another +25 DRR at 125 Aux, taking him to +46 DRR or ~31.1% DR. Heh, ~32% with Accolades.
That's not taking into account the damage reduction he'd get from hitting APO1 ,HE1, nor hitting Eng Fleet.
I'm looking at 33.6% Kinetic and 33.7% Energy unbuffed...no Threat Control, no Armor Reinforcements, just the 6 in Hull Plating...Accolades...+37.5 Energy DRR from a G14 Bounty Hunter's Friend and +50 Kinetic DRR from a G14 Field Exciter w/ [Kin]. Mixing in some Aux based PH1 and HE2, while working in Scattering Field and Brace For Impact.
Would get into whether he was comfortable with the Hull Healing he's getting from the 3pc Solanae, the pair of HE1s, the ET1, and the regen from Living Hull...working in the Miracle Workers when needed. Maybe even dropping out a Nimbus for the HE.
The Hydrodynamic does seem a little out of place on a build that should be oozing power...where you'd probably expect to see that E-Neut sort of thing, eh?
And my caffeine ran out...so I'm going to find some more before I fall asleep at the keyboard...wheeeeee.
I presume that you have 3 points or more in threat generation and 2-3 damage control engineers in your active duty space roster.
I have used some tanky builds, based on shield tanking, taking punishment for the team so my teammates take fewer hits. With EPTS on constant operation due to use of another EPTx ability and 2-3 DCEs, you have a nearly constant extra resistance to shields. With the double transfer shield strength to add on top of that, you should have excellent shields to begin with. When you do your runs, does the RSP or ST3 seem like you rarely use it? If so, drop one of them and replace with something you find more useful. Play around with that setup some. RSP is tough to drop since it's such an effective way to replenish shields, so I'd look hard at replacing ST3 with another grav well or something else you might find suits your uses.
As for gear, the current flavor of the month is to use a warp core with the AMP mod to push more DPS, and a romulan engine for the boost to attack patterns. That leaves deflector and shields. Since a lot of folks lean toward resilient shield types, the borg stuff may not be as good since it has a regenerative shield. The Nukara set adds a slight weapon damage boost with the 2 piece set. The deflector adds the shield emitters and shield systems as well as structural integrity. The shield is a resilient shield that has a 1% chance to reflect damage back. I'd recommend testing out a 2-piece nukara deflector/ shield combo with romulan engines when you have the resources to work towards that gear.
If you aren't getting reciprocity to proc often enough, and you think it is because you aren't getting and holding aggro well enough, you could boost threat generation by using attack pattern delta with Aduk 'Akan, and/ or you could add an elite fleet fermion deflector that boosts threat generation and adds a 10% science skill cooldown reduction.
As for traits, you have reciprocity. The T6 breen carrier trait is nice, but it may be causing some lag so be aware of it. Do your beam R&D stuff to get lvl 15 so you can get beam barrage.
As always, I hope this helps give you some ideas to try a few things, but use what you find works for you.
This is definitely something I'm considering altering, I've found in a few runs so far that my hull heals are more lacking than shield heals so I'm definitely at least considering bumping up the HE levels and moving the TSS levels down to compensate.
As for armor consoles, given the diminishing returns on resistances I find they probably aren't worth it for PvE content, but I'll try fitting one and seeing how much of a difference it makes in my overall hull resistances (that parser has freaking everything..). I believe I have a Fleet Neutronium +Turn somewhere. PvP content might be different but I don't PvP. Definitely still considering losing the Hydrodynamics for a Conductive RCS and fitting an Exotic Field Exciter in there somewhere as suggested earlier, but I need to raise my crafting levels a bit before I can make one and they're too pricey on the exchange right now.
Edit: my resting neutral resists without any powers activated is 28.8% to everything (90 Aux power). Capping my aux power and having HE 2 active raises that to 42.8%, swapping out the Hydrodynamic Console for an old Mk11 Rare Neutronium (the only full armor console I possess apparently) only increased that to 47.2%. Granted HE doesn't have 100% uptime but I don't feel adding an armor console would significantly improve my abilities.
Indeed, maintaining aggro is important to keep Reciprocity useful, which is why it's such a good fit on tank builds. I've said the same thing you said to fleet mates as well: if you aren't getting shot, Reciprocity isn't helping you any.
6 points in Threat Control, 2 Fleet Sci +Threat consoles, 3 VR DCEs, and a Fleet AMP core already in this build. I believe I have the APD Threat Doff around somewhere too, so I may swap it in, but hard to say whether that would be a better threat increase than APO since APO increases just my damage while APD increases everyone's damage, although it does also increase my threat gen while active with the Doff. I do use RSP reasonably often when everything else is on cooldown to give me some breathing room, still getting used to even having Sci Team in a build since my JHDC only had HE on it, but it's seeming like it's not as useful. Admittedly I slotted it mostly to purge sci debuffs, especially Subnuc when fighting Hirogen and Breen enemies, but having Sci Team 3 is probably excessive.
I'm slightly leery of losing the Hull Heal from either the Solanae set or the Borg Impulse/Deflector bonus, but I may look into replacing the engines and deflector as suggested. I definitely already have the Rom engine lying around, and I could look into the Fleet deflector. I don't think I ever acquired the Nukara space equipment set, but I have plenty of Nukara Marks so it wouldn't take much to get them. I'll have to look at the stats in comparison to the Solanae set though, it sounds like they have similar strengths.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.