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What happened to helping the new guy swim with the big boys?
oridjerraa
Member Posts: 313 Arc User
I mean, Traits were changed to level the playing field for a fresh 50 vs one with full reputation. Specializations is an about face in regards to stated design policy.
Don't get me wrong, I like customization. But are you seriously thinking through the amount of work it will require a player to get out of the kiddie pool. Is that really healthy for your game and your bottom line. This not only intimidates the new guy, this also makes devoted players less likely to play alts because its too much work. Less alts, less playtime, greater the chance of losing that longtime player to something else.
I do not get what you guys are doing.
Don't get me wrong, I like customization. But are you seriously thinking through the amount of work it will require a player to get out of the kiddie pool. Is that really healthy for your game and your bottom line. This not only intimidates the new guy, this also makes devoted players less likely to play alts because its too much work. Less alts, less playtime, greater the chance of losing that longtime player to something else.
I do not get what you guys are doing.
Post edited by oridjerraa on
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Alt-Needy <---> Alt-Friendly <---> Alt-Unfriendly
...where the game has generally been Alt-Needy with attempts to be Alt-Friendly because of it being Alt-Needy and Cryptic trying to make the game less Alt-Needy which has led to some Alt-Unfriendly actions.
Getting to 50 to play with my friends so easily was the thing that impressed me most when I stated playing. The game catered to bringing new players to their friends using 1-50 as almost a long term tutorial system in itself. 50-60 teaches nothing new and is grindy. If it was like this when I first started I can honestly say I would never have stayed. By the same token I could never make it to my friends in WoW all 3 times that I tried it and will never try it again.
I had to put a LOT of pressure on one of friends that recently joined the game to get her to 60 before she started having fun with me. The irony being that she had plenty of fun up until about 52 or so. The others that I put less time into dragging along haven't made it past that massive 50-60 barrier and have stopped playing.
Actually no they aren't. As an act in itself increasinging the cieling after lowering it a bit may seem like an about face but do keep in mind how rep traits were changed. Under the old system whenever a new reputation tree was added to the game top-level players became that much more powerful (there was no limit to the system, every add-on increased the theoretical difference between newb and pro which made the question of developming more content unnecessarily problematic.)
But look at the specialization system. We have Command Officer coming up soon but is that going to make those who maxed out Intel better? No, because you're limited to one or the other. There's a definite cap on how much you can equip yourself with and while that limit may have changed in opposition to the incidental changes to the rep trait the principle of the new add-ons and the older revamp are the same (you only get so many slots).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You dont understand because you want somethings you cant have without doing anything in game. Why do you even need specialization to finish missions and have fun with the game?
Just like upgrading and grinding, The only time specialization is necessary is if your competing with high performance players. However, pre-DR and post-DR pretty much are the same top PVE performers in game.
Feeling entitled that you should get all of these new stuff without doing anything?
Socialism/Communism attitude as its finest.
In my opinion it's the great glaring error of Delta Rising. The blanket level 60 that classifies both new level 60 characters and level 60 with their spec tree maxed (60+50ish?) as same is imbalanced design. I find it strange the majority of complainers don't grasp this and moan about how long it takes it takes them to grind additional levels. Why? It's not like there is any post 60 content on the table. Going ballistic about the journey, but clueless as to the destination.
Yeah, that was just an excuse they gave for doing a revamp of the rep system. Had nothing to do with power creep, and proof of that was the Tempest coming out right after they did the revamp.
Truth is that they realized that they had a potential problem, since the rep systems didn't have a cap on them. They wanted a cap so that they can control where the power creep comes from. They want it to come from things they can make money off of. Like ships, upgrade system, etc.
Sadly, the screwed up way that they do the leveling system is not new player friendly. They give you a decent leveling speed to go from 1-50, then they slap you in the face for getting to level 50 by creating a stupidly long grind. For new players, this is a turn off because the game starts off to be a fun experience, then loses the fun aspect.
This is nothing about getting something for nothing. I have nothing against grinding some content to get something I want. For example, almost all of my C-Store ships are from grinding Dil for them. However, I didn't need those ships just to play content. So, that grind was very fulfilling and enjoyable.
Yet, the leveling grind is required just to play the episodes. This forces the grind on players that just want to play the episodes. Whereas before, when you were leveling from 1-50, there were enough missions to take you from one level to the next.
The real problem here is that the developers either don't want to take the time to create fun content, or don't know how. Instead, they see a way to "get rich quick" off of power creep, and are focusing all their efforts on it. While this takes more, and more fun out of the game, it also pushes more and more players from the game, especially newer players.
I have hopes that the developers will stop creating new Dil/money sinks, and stop revamping old parts of the game just to add more Dil/money sinks into it, and start making the game more enjoyable. I doubt it will happen, since money is their main goal.
The old rep traits are a joke compared to those.
I can't speak to space but I can do ground elites fine without them. Also the medical nanites are still pretty awesome, as is the new DR ability. My issue is still the climb from 50-60.
Thing is...why shouldn't there be a gap? Course there should be a gap...otherwise why continue playing? Isn't it more about the size of the gap? Which Cryptic appears to be trying to cap the gap?
To me the size of the gap does not really matter. I mean lets be honest the average player with all gold gear and two full spec trees is still unlikely to break the 20k+ dps barrier that top end ones passed long ago.
It is the length of time to achieve that cap where I have issue. Combined with the lack of any content for me to feel the benefit of it with the current state of advanced/elite queues.
That gets into the cycle of releases, no? Cryptic has moved to the quarterly cycle - basically looking at doing four a year from what it was previously. So they want players playing for three months, yeah? They know that not everybody's going to be there at the start of those three months though, right? But they can't really risk those guys having nothing to do because of somebody showing up near the end of the three months, eh?
Say everybody was finished with everything the first week of each three month period...then what?
There's a lot of focus on what Cryptic gives as far as progression - what about the player's actual progression? What about them spending that time to get better as well? I've spent the last few weeks here and there over in ISA trying to do a little less wheee - trying to do better to see what I could do. Gone from that 10k to 13k to 15k to 17k to 19k...and I was stuck there at 19k...but I kept working at it and finally popped that 20k...heh, barely. 20,178.541 DPS.
It was a run where I did 44.84% of the damage, took 51.896% of the damage, and did 63.612% of the healing. I'm not an achiever...heh, I've got way too much wheee going for me, but it was pretty cool all the same. Set a goal to try to accomplish and worked toward it. Yeah, it meant changing some of the way I flew - but I didn't change a bunch of things...cause, lol this is the build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sarrwheee4_5343
Not a Tac...no FAW...no [CrtD]x3 weapons...pair of rare Mk XII Polaron consoles. No Gold weapons, only 3 of 6 Mk XIV...none of the Space Set upgraded.
30.7% damage from "Pets", 29.6% from normal shots from the arrays, 19.3% from TS3 Neutronic, 6.3% from TBR3, and then all the rest...."Pets" includes Tyken's, the Scorps and Widows, Photonic, Nimbus, and AAs.
It was a learning process - when to drop things out to avoid breaches, when to make that turn and when to keep it broadside (the whole time trying to stay at full throttle for Pedal), which particular targets to hit with the Scan or Ionic, trying to stay alive in the process...
...something that time gives. Somebody made the comment about 1-50 being an extended tutorial...only if it were. You don't have to know any more at 50 than you do at 1.
So yeah, with the same gearing...there was still a feeling of progress, cause I was actually trying to get better myself - not just tossing more and better gear at it, putting more points into things. I'm still only 23 Intel/15 Pilot/0 Commando. Could have easily finished that off long ago, but it's not just about external stuff...
It's a MMO, I expect things to take time. I don't expect there to be any kind of massive noticeable gains every time I turn around. I'm actually disappointed at how big some of the gains are out there for how quick they are.
Cryptic fixed the issue of where one could have been faced with the new player having 0 Rep abilities and the vet player having 9001 Rep abilities. When they set up the Specializations, sure, the vet might have 30 in a Primary and a 15 in a Secondary...that vet might have 9001 in both...but since they can only slot a single Primary and a single Secondary, just like the changes with the Rep - there's a cap on how far ahead.
And with various gear changes coming out when they do, they're also giving players that chance to close that gap there - rather than it just being an infinite gap that can never be closed.
Everybody's different, no doubt about that...and yeah, Cryptic spoiled the Hell out of folks for a long time - so Cryptic owns part of the blame there. And yeah, maybe they're trying to fix it too fast so it's coming off pretty brutal...can definitely see that.
But in the end, knowing there's a three month period there...just how long should things take and what is that going to mean for what somebody's doing for the rest of the time? And in being able to notice the progression taking place, does it have to be blatant?
But yeah, they nerfed the Hell out of the Advanced...and a bunch of Elite are missing.
Could raise the question for some why there even is any progression going on...but not everybody's playing at the same level - not everybody's got the same thing going on in the chair. You could put me in any of the DPS league guys' builds and it would be downright embarrassing how poorly I did in them by comparison.
The vast majority of the stuff in this game is little more than crutches for the uber casual player to try to allow them to feel like they can do the simplest of things...and when you put that stuff in the hands of those DPS guys, they're just going to be doing heinous stuff - cause they've got the content down, they've got the piloting skills, the knowledge on when to buff/debuff, and all the rest of that - so you keep tossing the gear to them as well, and they're just going to keep on doing what they're doing.
Meh, this has to have been my most incoherent rambling 'n babbling post ever...
Basically, STO was becoming no better than a Facebook game. Cryptic is trying to make it a MMO again. Sure, they could have eased into it more...but they're going in a direction I prefer. I don't like Facebook games. Some folks do. Those folks won't be happy.
Oh yeah, there should be a gap. But at this point, we are talking about new player with barely 10k dps, and old vets with 50k+ on average, up to 100k at max. The gap is wide. And that's an understatement.
And to widen this gap, the upgrind and spec tree was invaluable. Much more than rep trait ever were.
I agree with Cryptic, but they are squashing the ants, while the elephant is in the middle of the room.
Active rep powers are not all that good. And about half of them are ground.
Rom rep : situational (pvp/science heavy build mostly)
Nukara rep : average and situational (burst skill mostly)
Undine rep : good skill
So far, they are not so good.
On the other hand, we have the spec skill. Like the attack pattern HP buff (crazy good), pedal to metal, flank bonus on everything, active penetration and accuracy boost...
I get that and have no real problem with that. I am not debating the philosophy but the implementation. Either the patrols offer too much sp, or everything else offers too little. The current state plays a nasty psychological mind game on myself and others I'm sure. Human nature is to be lazy, to achieve the highest reward for the lowest risk and investment. Not necessarily enjoyment. That glaring issue needs fixed.
As for the elites. I hate ground, I enjoy bug hunt elite. Because I enjoy it I actually have two toons decked out in the proper gear for it. I have incentive to continue upgrading both their gear and number of spec points, to improve my reward at a lower risk and investment. Problem is I still prefer space and it doesn't matter how well I do in Disconnected Elite if the rest of the team cannot bother to press F. Or several other queues. Beyond that I already do CCA at an extremely high reward to risk/investment so it offers no reason to upgrade. Etc Etc.
The philosophy is fine. But it needs proper implementation. Like everything else in this game I suppose it lacks that extra 10% effort.
PW did this to another game too. New people leave as fast as they come sadly because they realize they cant get anywhere with out dropping loads of cash. People on the other game have spent $5000.00 on their armor to be competitive and to even be able to participate in the new content thats been added. If you don't have the cash to spend a lot of players wont even squad with you and if they do squad with you and find out you cant keep up be prepared to be shunned and called a noob in public chat to the point no one will squad with you. I fear this game heading down that path too. I really hope not because after coming here from the other PW game I was in shock and awe how much better this game is. The community, game mechanics, everything was a relief. The other game used to be full of helpful people but has since turned in to quite the opposite. I really hope this game doesn't go down the same road as the other game.
From what I have seen it seems like this game is headed that way, but I'll keep my hopes up.
I don't know how this game was 4-5 years ago as I've only been playing STO less than a year but I see all the complaints from vet players all the time. If they only knew how good it is here compared to PW's other game (Non Cryptic Game)
Cryptic is great!!
PW on the other hand is money driven, but what business isn't
I don't mind spending cash sometimes if I have it. It's a form of entertainment. Can go to movies and spend $50 easy to watch a movie or $50 on STO to get something I can enjoy longer than a hour and half movie I can watch for free later on if I wait :P
P.S. on the other game its to the point you can no longer grind to get the gear needed. It's nearly impossible unless you play 18 hours a day for 2+ years
If you think the situation is bad, imagine if you were a new player interested in joining PVP.
STO's a game of ratios, yeah? Almost everywhere we look, there are ratios and percentage boosts.
Say we had Tom and Jerry, both in the same exact build - everything, ship and character. For this example, say it was a cannon build, DHCs and Turrets.
Let's put Tom inside 1km and Jerry just inside 10km. Nothing else different about the builds, nothing else different about the way they trigger any buffs/debuffs.
Jerry's going to be doing ~40% the damage that Tom is.
Let's say we also fudge the Weapon Power between the two. Each point of Weapon Power is a 2% increase in damage. So say Tom's set his max at 125 and Jerry's set his max at 75, then Jerry's going to be doing ~60% the damage that Tom is.
Do both...Jerry's now doing 24% the damage that Tom is.
Builds are the same, buff/debuff the same...all we changed was the range and amount of Weapon Power.
Okay then, now what if we add in timing on buffs/debuffs? What if we add in travel time between groups of targets?
All sorts of things we can easily do to butcher the DPS between two otherwise exact builds.
Which gets into the questions...
Did Cryptic add that stuff so the DPS folks could do insane amounts of damage?
Did Cryptic add that stuff so the PvP folks would have more to complain about?
Or was it all added knowing that folks are going to be chasing butterflies, fatfingering things, debuffing torps (heh, it's sad how many times I've done that), and all the rest - so that stuff might help them along.
Because it's all ratio/percentage based. Yeah, for those DPS folks flying at a different level and tweaking their builds out the wahzoo for content they've run out the wahzoo and are treating like a target dummy...yep, going to have all sorts of ludicrous numbers going on there. For us mere mortals, we're not going to see the same boosts they do even with the same gear.
So we keep asking for more and more to try to get where they are, and it will never happen - because of it being a game of ratios/percentages.
Like the following odd fictional example.
Tom's got 60,000 hull.
Jerry's got 40,000 hull.
There's something that provides a 10% increase to that hull.
Tom gets an additional 6000 hull.
Jerry gets an additional 4000 hull.
Both got 10% more, but Tom got 2000 more than Jerry.
So for all the stuff some folks keep asking for down at our level of play, we might be getting the same % boost as those DPS guys...but we're not getting the same boost from it.
Yeah, the gearing stuff has allowed the DPS folks to take their numbers even higher and higher - they're still tweaking what they're doing, though - they're still practicing, they're still getting better at just the non-gear stuff.
Their gains are always going to be better just because of them being better...Cryptic throwing more and more gear at newer players to try to provide them crutches to do simple things, where with the ratios/percentages there are only going to be X boosts - yeah, that's creating all sorts of Y boosts amongst the DPS players.
Say we get a season that adds stuff that will add 25% damage.
05000 * 1.25 = 06250 - 05000 = 01250
10000 * 1.25 = 12500 - 10000 = 02500
20000 * 1.25 = 25000 - 20000 = 05000
40000 * 1.25 = 50000 - 40000 = 10000
Same gear upgrades, but the one player goes from 5k to 6.25k while the other goes from 40k to 50k...
As long as STO's based on a system of ratios/percentages...there's going to be a problem, imho.
Good post!
The discrepency in powerlevels between a casual and high end player is huge. Adding the specialization tree is not helping either. Frankly, is see no point in the spec tree. Once you got the few golden nuggets and you get a new captain point I feel like: meh whatever ... start from the bottom *click*. There are no choices to be made here, it's boring. I started playing in october - and I play a LOT - yet still i'm not finished with the spec points on my main. I got 5 characters maxed out in the rep system (thanks to epohhs) but the spec tree?? Make it account wide or just remove it altogether.
I want to clarify a few things about my opinion of the state of the game.
I have no problem with the duration, aka time sink on crafting, upgrading. I don't spend cash on that, just a subscription.
My belief is that players are not having fun playing sto right now. Most of my fleet play different games now and only log on for our pvp nights, which since delta rising has been limited to in fleet only matches.
By making players want to grind xps they take players out of the pools where we all use to frequent.
PVE and PVP are on life support and circling the drain. The later is so bad we have a non intelligence night pvp just so we can mash buttons and have them respond!
The fundamental difference between reputation and specialization is one has a 20 hour fire and forget level up process. It could be done on multiple characters. It allowed players to go do whatever.
Make Command Specialization level up in PvP only and see what happens, Cryptic. I dare you! I double dare you!!
I haven't even been playing a year yet so still a lot of stuff I haven't gone through. I'd like to get through the delta missions but after I've had to do a list of patrols, then it came again having to do a list of patrols, then yet again... I kinda gave up and haven't been back since. I'm sure I will go back and do them again eventually but I grit my teeth knowing I have to do more patrols right now. Glad winter event is here and gave me and girlfriend something to do. Even if its grinding we still had fun getting the new clothes, weapons, and epohhs. She went more crazy with it than me and wanted to get the clothes on all 3 of her chars lol.
I just don't care for mass patrol missions.
Also since they have changed the queues we stopped doing those too. We used to do the borg ones together all the time. Now we don't even bother with them anymore. Too rough for a casual player. We are too noobish I guess
this might be your problem. I play the game for the sake of playing the game. Gear, exp, etc comes or it doesn't. No biggie. Just like Tetris or Pacman. Its always the same, but still can be fun just to do it.
are you just trolling? You know exactly what would happen:
Newb: I don't see anyone, I thought this was a PvP batt... *gets vaped*
Newb respawns *gets vaped*
Newb respawns *gets vaped at respawn point*
Newb respawns *gets vaped at respawn point*
Newb logs out and uninstalls sto
Now adding awards to PvP so there are two paths for progression, that has some serious potential.