A lot of good posts & points here, not going to argue about anything right now. On topic though, I am curious, what do you people think could be changed to grinding or could it be replaced with something else? Or do you think it is good as it is right now?
Not saying it should be made easier but speaking about more diversity in regards to content and fair & more balanced loot/marks/ect output across the board for instance... repeat 1 mission over and over and over and..,again to obtain a space set or a set of beams...VR R&D mats...you name it. Is this how fun looks like to you cryptic?
He does not even define grind the same way I personally would.
Grind=Repeating the same exact patrol 10x in a row.
Farm=Running three or four different queues to max out my purple rocks.
One I hate. The other I love. I really think there is a huge difference between the two that many do not recognize.
^ I think this is a common sentiment and really is crux of the issue when it comes to endgame in most MMOs. But what are the differences between "grinding" and "farming" so that we have the good without the bad? There seems to be a "we know it when we see it" but that doesn't seem particularly helpful to devs who I am convinced truly do want to make games that are fun for players.
^ I think this is a common sentiment and really is crux of the issue when it comes to endgame in most MMOs. But what are the differences between "grinding" and "farming" so that we have the good without the bad? There seems to be a "we know it when we see it" but that doesn't seem particularly helpful to devs who I am convinced truly do want to make games that are fun for players.
A lot of the Dev's I've met (especially the AAA type) are mostly about the paycheque. They get paid to code/design/create, they don't worry too much about it when they get home. Indie's and certain developers are an exception in that they have a passion for the game design process and making the best game they can rather than the most profitable product.
Personally I find farming just as onerous as grinding. Why have the need for either? It would be better if the mechanic of farming happened as a natural bi-product of playing the game rather than as a specific need to repeat ad nauseum. Grinding is a whole lot worse as it just highlights a failure of the developer to offer a range of activities for the player to contend with to reach a goal.
The Spec Points area perfect example. There are a couple of ways to farm XP but the most common is repeated Argala Patrol runs. Running solo on normal gives the most XP whereas if there was a decent interaction between the players (like the ability to group up) it would be less of a grind instantly, though that possibility was removed after Tau Dewa Gate. If you group up now you lose potential XP. Not good for player moral.
There should be multiple areas for gaining XP at equivalent speed to Argala. However with the current balance it's just a race to get 100K DPS to do Argala in less time. Having the end game content consist of crappy side patrols (yes Argala is crappy!) which barely had 2 minutes spent on them from a technical point of view, is atrocious. Coupled with the terrible balance from 50-60 and the terrible setup of the STF's (Time vs reward is a factor that should be accounted for) means most people aren't doing any interesting content, which equates to a grind.
Dean is always fluffy with his commentary's. Personally I don't like his approach to things as he doesn't really think it out before having an opinion on something. He is right about players though, there needs to be more interaction between them. Whether it's Co-Operative or Competitive. STO has a marked lack of both at the moment, it may as well be a clothes shop for ships and aliens rather than an MMO.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
I believe all of the points made in this thread thus far are valid. Due to most being shared from
the perspective of the writer.
I also believe the crux of the issue regarding game design comes down to one simple question...
What is the philosophy/perspective of the top decision maker for the game in question?
This is the hub of all debate for whatever company, product, or customer. An age old
challenge since consumers first became so lucrative. Why else would companies sometimes
surface as "the greatest ever", then quietly disappear over time, and be replaced by lesser
companies? I submitt, the answer lies in the top leadership perspectives that change, or
move in to fill the void. Not an issue that will be "solved" at this tier of human evolution.
The Spec Points area perfect example. There are a couple of ways to farm XP but the most common is repeated Argala Patrol runs. Running solo on normal gives the most XP whereas if there was a decent interaction between the players (like the ability to group up) it would be less of a grind instantly, though that possibility was removed after Tau Dewa Gate. If you group up now you lose potential XP. Not good for player moral.
It's exactly this that worries me somewhat. DR Patrols now give the most XP where as any other content in regards to the time/effort table gets left behind massively. And this has been decided intentionally and is no coincidence whatsoever. Be it for the so called "metrics" or any other reason really, favoring one part of the content over the rest is controversial and a bad idea really, especially in this extent (IMO).
I remember them saying that they'll be keep on tweaking things, or something along the line. I just hope that we'll get some sort of balance XP wise spatially inclusive and comprehensive.
What makes a game succesful in the long run? For me the answer is randomly generated content.
The basic gameplay doesn't change, but your challenges change every time you dive into the game, combined with a chance of improving what you have to face future challenges. Roguelikes or open world strategy games (including strategy/RP mix) are games that I still play with a passion after 20 and more years, and they don't really bore me, ever. If I load up XCOM - UFO Defense for example, I know exactly how the game works, what the bells and whistles are and how I will succeed. But since *most* of the game offers after I placed my HQ is random every game is different. I don't know what the combat zone will look like when I let my Skyranger touch down and most importantly defeat is possible. I can start the mission, open the hatch and get a plasma rocket in the face and die and lose. Then I start over, because I had fun getting there and the next time I try to be better. In an MMO I would ideally imagining that after hitting "endgame", I am tossed into randomly generated missions with varying adversaries, varying strategies, hitting a road block once in a while because the enemy adapted to my tactics, I get friends to help me with that in in the end I have a chance of random drops of exeptional quality to collect rare and strong items to improve myself. Every time I venture into the endgame content I don't know what I am up against - and that's what would make me playing. Not planning my whole game from A to Z before I even create an account.
In today's games, people have the mindset that just because they are playing they should be entitled to total victory. Invested time should net a guranteed success. Bak in the days, the way was the game, literally. Even losing was fun because you learned. I don't like those grindy window-shopping games where I know nothing will ever surprise me. I know I need to grind x-million points to get this, I need to grind mission x 250 times to get item y - YAWN. And when I have everything, what do I do? Nothing. I can only do the same grind, just faster now. But why should I?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A lot of good posts & points here, not going to argue about anything right now. On topic though, I am curious, what do you people think could be changed to grinding or could it be replaced with something else? Or do you think it is good as it is right now?
Not saying it should be made easier but speaking about more diversity in regards to content and fair & more balanced loot/marks/ect output across the board for instance... repeat 1 mission over and over and over and..,again to obtain a space set or a set of beams...VR R&D mats...you name it. Is this how fun looks like to you cryptic?
Preferred grind? Letting me grind where and how I want to grind and not taking where I am doing it and nerfing the XP into the dirt in an attempt to try to force me to play content I don't want to play. I am playing the content I want scaled to my level. It's not easy mode, per se, in that I'm not killing things 50 levels below me and getting the XP for killing things at or slightly above my level. But forcing me into a certain mission, not just a zone, if I want to make any kind of progress is the absolute worst kind of grind there is. At least let me diversify the grind in a way I can do so and not be penalized for not killing X times to repeat the killing of X ten thousand times.
EDIT: If I want to do the exact same thing over and over day in and day out for 8 hours a day, there's a company that pays for it.
Preferred grind? Letting me grind where and how I want to grind and not taking where I am doing it and nerfing the XP into the dirt in an attempt to try to force me to play content I don't want to play. I am playing the content I want scaled to my level. It's not easy mode, per se, in that I'm not killing things 50 levels below me and getting the XP for killing things at or slightly above my level. But forcing me into a certain mission, not just a zone, if I want to make any kind of progress is the absolute worst kind of grind there is. At least let me diversify the grind in a way I can do so and not be penalized for not killing X times to repeat the killing of X ten thousand times.
EDIT: If I want to do the exact same thing over and over day in and day out for 8 hours a day, there's a company that pays for it.
Exactly. Or in other words, we should be able to cycle through the content and be equally successful as if we would only do one part of it, over & over again. After all these threads since DR, containing a lot of negative feedback, one can only hope that the Devs got that message and are working on a proper solution. It is a complex topic though, and as such needs a lot of preparation, adjustments and fine tuning along the way, some of which we have already seen, but not exactly to our favour though.
Most people simple demand too much and assume a lot, without any knowledge about what's going on in the backround, what it actually takes to be a Dev of STO and how difficult it can be at times. I don't know either, but I think I'll just put those thoughts out there to show where I'm coming from and to try and help create a better understanding for the situation as a whole.
There is one comment he made that I liked alot and doesn't seem to have been mentioned. Making games fun and playable for a single player. I know we are in a mmo. But my fleet is not always on when I am. And sometimes, I want to do things that others don't. The game , at it's core, should be fun as a single player.
To put it in STO terms, the storyline should be completable by people in white gear of the appropriate tier for the mission level. There should be a way a solo player can get any of the mats, including purple mats, by your self.
All of the above stuff can have harder modes that require you to use friends or pugs, and should reward you appropriately for the greater effort invovled.
That to me was the most important thing he had to say and STO should really look at. DR, as it is now, has stimied me in the storyline. and I get get the necessary resources to build the better gear. I hate this part of STO, because it really puts lone wolf players behind such an eightball that there doesn't seem to be anyway past it with out spending money. Money I just don't have.
A developer who has actually played the game? Does that even exist? Not in STO.
Actually, they do play the game. I've personally run into Taco and Smirk in-game.
But as Iconians is fond of pointing out, they're not in the uber-min-maxer camp. They're more in the "guy who picked a Star Cruiser at level 40 because it looked cool" camp. I'm no expert myself, but even I was groaning when I saw Branflakes' boff layout when he livestreamed himself playing the Omega STFs. They play the game but they're not particularly talented players: programming and gaming are different skillsets.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Actually, they do play the game. I've personally run into Taco and Smirk in-game.
But as Iconians is fond of pointing out, they're not in the uber-min-maxer camp. They're more in the "guy who picked a Star Cruiser at level 40 because it looked cool" camp. I'm no expert myself, but even I was groaning when I saw Branflakes' boff layout when he livestreamed himself playing the Omega STFs. They play the game but they're not particularly talented players: programming and gaming are different skillsets.
I was talking about real "Players" with no jobs. Of course they can't play that much they have corporate jobs. Its damn near impossible for the devs to play as much as many players who have no sex life.
Actually, they do play the game. I've personally run into Taco and Smirk in-game.
But as Iconians is fond of pointing out, they're not in the uber-min-maxer camp. They're more in the "guy who picked a Star Cruiser at level 40 because it looked cool" camp. I'm no expert myself, but even I was groaning when I saw Branflakes' boff layout when he livestreamed himself playing the Omega STFs. They play the game but they're not particularly talented players: programming and gaming are different skillsets.
And that's the rub...
Those of 'team Cryptic' who are seen in the game seem to represent the casual player, while the decisions are driven by those who don't actually play.
"This will work." - can we test that? "No. It worked on [insert IP name here]."
Gecko's almost complete lack of understanding of the games mechanics speaks volumes on the general disconnect between the 'game' and the 'monetization'. If they spent as much time playing as they do spinning the results, he might experience that his game is no longer the fun it once was.
Dean's presentation was excellent, but a little too cutting edge for business side of the game development. If you actually listen to him, he hates many of the core elements on how games make money. It doesn't leave a lot of room when you're talking about financing game development and support for the long term.
His opinions on a self-sustaining sandbox MMO are based on 1 successful game, (itself not an MMO), and a re-release of an older game to the public domain. He didn't offer advice oh how you can extend that 'success' model into the realm of maintaining it as an active business. He was more Jerry Maguire, than Warren Buffet.
A compelling environment that self sustains itself through player interaction? Sounds awesome. The foundry in STO however is far from being that kind of tool. Until then, we're stuck in the hamster wheel while the player-base dwindles.
Comments
Subs didn't stop griefers and spammers in WoW and UO.
The only thing to make a dent in the griefer population was Trammel.
Not saying it should be made easier but speaking about more diversity in regards to content and fair & more balanced loot/marks/ect output across the board for instance... repeat 1 mission over and over and over and..,again to obtain a space set or a set of beams...VR R&D mats...you name it. Is this how fun looks like to you cryptic?
A lot of the Dev's I've met (especially the AAA type) are mostly about the paycheque. They get paid to code/design/create, they don't worry too much about it when they get home. Indie's and certain developers are an exception in that they have a passion for the game design process and making the best game they can rather than the most profitable product.
Personally I find farming just as onerous as grinding. Why have the need for either? It would be better if the mechanic of farming happened as a natural bi-product of playing the game rather than as a specific need to repeat ad nauseum. Grinding is a whole lot worse as it just highlights a failure of the developer to offer a range of activities for the player to contend with to reach a goal.
The Spec Points area perfect example. There are a couple of ways to farm XP but the most common is repeated Argala Patrol runs. Running solo on normal gives the most XP whereas if there was a decent interaction between the players (like the ability to group up) it would be less of a grind instantly, though that possibility was removed after Tau Dewa Gate. If you group up now you lose potential XP. Not good for player moral.
There should be multiple areas for gaining XP at equivalent speed to Argala. However with the current balance it's just a race to get 100K DPS to do Argala in less time. Having the end game content consist of crappy side patrols (yes Argala is crappy!) which barely had 2 minutes spent on them from a technical point of view, is atrocious. Coupled with the terrible balance from 50-60 and the terrible setup of the STF's (Time vs reward is a factor that should be accounted for) means most people aren't doing any interesting content, which equates to a grind.
Dean is always fluffy with his commentary's. Personally I don't like his approach to things as he doesn't really think it out before having an opinion on something. He is right about players though, there needs to be more interaction between them. Whether it's Co-Operative or Competitive. STO has a marked lack of both at the moment, it may as well be a clothes shop for ships and aliens rather than an MMO.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
the perspective of the writer.
I also believe the crux of the issue regarding game design comes down to one simple question...
What is the philosophy/perspective of the top decision maker for the game in question?
This is the hub of all debate for whatever company, product, or customer. An age old
challenge since consumers first became so lucrative. Why else would companies sometimes
surface as "the greatest ever", then quietly disappear over time, and be replaced by lesser
companies? I submitt, the answer lies in the top leadership perspectives that change, or
move in to fill the void. Not an issue that will be "solved" at this tier of human evolution.
BCW.
It's exactly this that worries me somewhat. DR Patrols now give the most XP where as any other content in regards to the time/effort table gets left behind massively. And this has been decided intentionally and is no coincidence whatsoever. Be it for the so called "metrics" or any other reason really, favoring one part of the content over the rest is controversial and a bad idea really, especially in this extent (IMO).
I remember them saying that they'll be keep on tweaking things, or something along the line. I just hope that we'll get some sort of balance XP wise spatially inclusive and comprehensive.
The basic gameplay doesn't change, but your challenges change every time you dive into the game, combined with a chance of improving what you have to face future challenges. Roguelikes or open world strategy games (including strategy/RP mix) are games that I still play with a passion after 20 and more years, and they don't really bore me, ever. If I load up XCOM - UFO Defense for example, I know exactly how the game works, what the bells and whistles are and how I will succeed. But since *most* of the game offers after I placed my HQ is random every game is different. I don't know what the combat zone will look like when I let my Skyranger touch down and most importantly defeat is possible. I can start the mission, open the hatch and get a plasma rocket in the face and die and lose. Then I start over, because I had fun getting there and the next time I try to be better. In an MMO I would ideally imagining that after hitting "endgame", I am tossed into randomly generated missions with varying adversaries, varying strategies, hitting a road block once in a while because the enemy adapted to my tactics, I get friends to help me with that in in the end I have a chance of random drops of exeptional quality to collect rare and strong items to improve myself. Every time I venture into the endgame content I don't know what I am up against - and that's what would make me playing. Not planning my whole game from A to Z before I even create an account.
In today's games, people have the mindset that just because they are playing they should be entitled to total victory. Invested time should net a guranteed success. Bak in the days, the way was the game, literally. Even losing was fun because you learned. I don't like those grindy window-shopping games where I know nothing will ever surprise me. I know I need to grind x-million points to get this, I need to grind mission x 250 times to get item y - YAWN. And when I have everything, what do I do? Nothing. I can only do the same grind, just faster now. But why should I?
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Preferred grind? Letting me grind where and how I want to grind and not taking where I am doing it and nerfing the XP into the dirt in an attempt to try to force me to play content I don't want to play. I am playing the content I want scaled to my level. It's not easy mode, per se, in that I'm not killing things 50 levels below me and getting the XP for killing things at or slightly above my level. But forcing me into a certain mission, not just a zone, if I want to make any kind of progress is the absolute worst kind of grind there is. At least let me diversify the grind in a way I can do so and not be penalized for not killing X times to repeat the killing of X ten thousand times.
EDIT: If I want to do the exact same thing over and over day in and day out for 8 hours a day, there's a company that pays for it.
Exactly. Or in other words, we should be able to cycle through the content and be equally successful as if we would only do one part of it, over & over again. After all these threads since DR, containing a lot of negative feedback, one can only hope that the Devs got that message and are working on a proper solution. It is a complex topic though, and as such needs a lot of preparation, adjustments and fine tuning along the way, some of which we have already seen, but not exactly to our favour though.
Most people simple demand too much and assume a lot, without any knowledge about what's going on in the backround, what it actually takes to be a Dev of STO and how difficult it can be at times. I don't know either, but I think I'll just put those thoughts out there to show where I'm coming from and to try and help create a better understanding for the situation as a whole.
To put it in STO terms, the storyline should be completable by people in white gear of the appropriate tier for the mission level. There should be a way a solo player can get any of the mats, including purple mats, by your self.
All of the above stuff can have harder modes that require you to use friends or pugs, and should reward you appropriately for the greater effort invovled.
That to me was the most important thing he had to say and STO should really look at. DR, as it is now, has stimied me in the storyline. and I get get the necessary resources to build the better gear. I hate this part of STO, because it really puts lone wolf players behind such an eightball that there doesn't seem to be anyway past it with out spending money. Money I just don't have.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Actually, they do play the game. I've personally run into Taco and Smirk in-game.
But as Iconians is fond of pointing out, they're not in the uber-min-maxer camp. They're more in the "guy who picked a Star Cruiser at level 40 because it looked cool" camp. I'm no expert myself, but even I was groaning when I saw Branflakes' boff layout when he livestreamed himself playing the Omega STFs. They play the game but they're not particularly talented players: programming and gaming are different skillsets.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I was talking about real "Players" with no jobs. Of course they can't play that much they have corporate jobs. Its damn near impossible for the devs to play as much as many players who have no sex life.
And that's the rub...
Those of 'team Cryptic' who are seen in the game seem to represent the casual player, while the decisions are driven by those who don't actually play.
"This will work." - can we test that? "No. It worked on [insert IP name here]."
Gecko's almost complete lack of understanding of the games mechanics speaks volumes on the general disconnect between the 'game' and the 'monetization'. If they spent as much time playing as they do spinning the results, he might experience that his game is no longer the fun it once was.
Dean's presentation was excellent, but a little too cutting edge for business side of the game development. If you actually listen to him, he hates many of the core elements on how games make money. It doesn't leave a lot of room when you're talking about financing game development and support for the long term.
His opinions on a self-sustaining sandbox MMO are based on 1 successful game, (itself not an MMO), and a re-release of an older game to the public domain. He didn't offer advice oh how you can extend that 'success' model into the realm of maintaining it as an active business. He was more Jerry Maguire, than Warren Buffet.
A compelling environment that self sustains itself through player interaction? Sounds awesome. The foundry in STO however is far from being that kind of tool. Until then, we're stuck in the hamster wheel while the player-base dwindles.
Which is fine for Cryptic.