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Neutronic Torpedo?
reginamala78
Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
I see lots of people going gaga over the Neutronic Torpedo + Spread3 and so pick one up to see what all the fuss is about. Engineer in a thrown-together Vesta doing solo patrols, CSV1+APB1+Spread3 combo without GW clustering (damn Kazon A2D), but thus far I'm underwhelmed by the thing. It hits a little harder than the Gravimetric using the same setup (critting for maybe 12k when it hits hull), but with half the rate of fire it seems like a net loss. I figure I must be missing something, as the hype certainly doesn't match my own experiences, so what gives?
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Mostly I would say the hype, is over the Radiation dmg applied and, not so much the kinetic dmg!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I'm a fan of the grav, enhanced biomolecular and the new Neutronic torpedo. If I'm playing exclusively against Undine, one will work better than the other two.
If I'm running Korfez or BDE, I'm using Neutronic.
With all of the dps enhancements recently, I've gone back to having forward and rear facing torpedo launchers 'cause it's simply a lot of fun to TS things up
Use what you like
Yeah, but what is the 'right' that makes it nice? I looked at target indicators and I didn't see any kind of radiation DOT on them, and the base pulse of 900 radiation damage seems kinda 'so what?' Right now I wouldn't even put this thing in my torpedo top-5, so what makes it move up?
The Gravimetric parse: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h8qemo5ah4vcidi/Gravimetric.Log?dl=0
The Neutronic parse: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9ss2o9fkgmvgkt/Neutronic.Log?dl=0
The spreadsheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vhij7s5hcf4nwld/GravNeut.xlsx?dl=0
The test build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sb24torptest_0
Both the Grav and Neut are the normal/no upgrade Mk XII VR versions, and were switched out for the empty fore weapon slot.
DISCLAIMER: That's not a recommended build in the least - it's just a goofball build with some survivability for dealing with the latency I experience when the Negh'Var drop in SB24.
The Gravimetric SB24
The tooltip/info:
Torpedo Spread III: 2917.8 x4 per target (11671.2)
Normal Attack: 5016.4
TS3 Boost: 232.66%
What CLR said...
53:08 minutes
Gravimetric Photon Torpedo - Spread III
1,838 attacks
2,210.338 average damage
4,062,601 damage
2,934,577 hull damage
1,128,024 shield damage
6,770,603 base damage
16,118 max one-hit
23.395% CrtH
What Notepad++ & Excel added...
1837 attacks
23.35% critical hits
8.93% flanking hits
7737.99 maximum raw damage
19.2707 minimum raw damage
3681.433 average raw damage
1629 raw hits > tooltip
208 raw hits < tooltip
386 raw hits > 5000 damage
0 raw hits > 10000 damage
0 raw hits > 20000 damage
The Neutronic SB24
The tooltip/info:
Torpedo Spread III: 8192.2 x3 per target (24576.6)
Normal Attack: 6782.6
TS3 Boost: 362.35%
What CLR said...
37:30 minutes
Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III
2,864 attacks
3,361.054 average damage
9,626,058 damage
6,480,983 hull damage
3,145,075 shield damage
11,215,020 base damage
48,075 max one-hit
16.62% CrtH
What Notepad++ & Excel added...
727 attacks*
16.09% critical hits
7.70% flanking hits
23059.9 maximum raw damage
8012.38 minimum raw damage
11262.9 average raw damage
725 raw hits > tooltip
2 raw hits < tooltip
233 raw hits > 10000
83 raw hits > 20000
*Why the difference in number of attacks for the Neutronic TS3 vs. CLR? CLR is including all of the Radiation attacks as well as the Kinetic attacks.
Some Thoughts
While it may not be the first thing that stands out to anybody, it's hard not to notice that the minimum raw hits for the Gravimetric torp appear to reflect remaining health of the target while the Neutronic simply displays the raw hit. This is reminiscent of the damage prevented by shields number which is calculated based off of the hull damage and can reflect the shields preventing more damage than was done. Really wish that those two numbers would be hard numbers rather than calculations based off of something that gives dicey numbers, eh?
To an extent, that complicates things - we can't compare average raw because of that. It basically goofs up most of the comparisons. I mean, sure - we can just look at that max raw hit for each and see that it's obviously off; but it would be nifty to get into a more detailed comparative analysis of it, eh?
Say we took four of the max raw for the Grav, that would be 7737.99 * 4 = 30951.96 damage...in a rough, theoretical way.
Say we took three of the max raw for the Neut, that would be 23059.9 * 3 = 69179.7 damage...in a rough, theoretical way.
That's 69179.7 / 30951.96 = 2.235
What about the initial tooltips?
24576.6 / 11671.2 = 2.106
Work in the additional CrtD that the Neut has as part of the SumAllBonus damage boosts, and you're pretty much looking at our max raw matching up closely with our tooltip numbers, eh?
Basically the Neutronic is capable of doing more than twice the damage of the Gravimetric with a TS3...just looking at the Kinetic aspect. The test build wasn't really buffing either, so the more you buff - while that percentage difference might remain the same, the actual damage represented by that difference will just continue to grow.
Is the Grav going to fire more than twice that of the Neut? My Grav has a 7.3s recharge (which is curious, is Opportunistic doing that? should be 7.6s with the 2pc MACO) and my Neut has an 11.5s recharge. That's not going to cover the gap in damage. Don't forget, that's with a single VR PWO.
Like other "complaints" I've had, I'm not so much in the group saying it does too much damage as I'm in the group saying it does too much damage compared to other torps. Course, that's with the acknowledgement that it gets a lesser boost from a TS1 than the Grav would. And of course I have to complain about how weak TS1/TS2/TS3/HY1/HY2/HY3 are for Chrons/Trans/Elachi compared to others, since they get a smaller boost there. See, it's about having some consistency to the boosts there. Neither FAW nor BO care if you're using Polaron or Tetryon or a Beam Array or Dual Beam Bank...but when it comes to TS/HY and projectiles, it's all sorts of jacked up.
Taking the Grav from being a 72.65% x4 torp to a 120.78% x3 torp like the Neutronic, would work as long as they did that for all the torps. Buff them all up to what the Neutronic does, eh? Or bring the Neutronic in line with the Photons, Quantums, Plasma (while buffing the Chrons/Trans/Elachi) so they receive that similar buff from the abilities, eh?
It isn't a direct DPS increasing proc, thus it's harder to quantify. The practical results are there, though. Now, the gravimetric torp is a little different. It's weaker but its proc does mini-GW damage, so you can quantify it in the logs. IMO these mini rifts hardly ever stop an NPC, but they do damage which all adds up. You can probably get a similar result with a TCD and DOFF to cause aftershocks.
Thank you Virus.
I've used the torpedo since it came out and have not been wild about it. Whether I had 4 or 9 in flow caps the - to Subsystem power never broke out of the teens. Similar to the Enhanced Bio-Molecular Torpedo this might work optimally, for the - subsystem power aspect, in HY mode (Cryptic building the value of HY perhaps) as a stream of torpedoes fire. Several torpedoes could stack - subsystem power procs leading to power loss and failure.
Also, as with the Bio Molecular Torp, direct hull damage by the Neutronic Torp, skill buffed or not, is impressive. Against shielded target the observational damage has been less impressive. The state of a targets shields had lead to wild swings of observational direct hull damage. This situational hull damage is one of the main reasons I do not favor this torpedo.
As I write this I'm looking for a replacement torp for the Neutronic, the radiation was not impressive, the state of the opponents shields seemed to highly effect outcomes, and the subsystem power loss never seemed to manifest itself. But perhaps I've been used it incorrectly on my torpedo boats by using it in TS. HY interspersed with a single Neutronic Torpedoe could result in power loss if the subsystem loss is applied per torpedo. This could help explain why the power loss stats could stay under -30 and would, in my mind build the narrative that Cryptic is trying to build the value of skills, HY in the case of the Enhanced Bio Molec. and Neutronic Torps, through making them relevant with new weapons.
For example, Grav Torps, TS, and GW become insta hits among most, but then how do you build the value of Tykens Rift (and energy loss powers)? Use a Secondary Deflector and/or drain powers (TR, ES) followed by a HY salvo of Neutronic Torpedoes each applying subsystems power loss? Could this cause ships to lose power? Could a TR, HY, Neutronic combo be an another tool for Sci's, an effective alternative to Grav Torps/TS/GW, and an attempt to build the value to Tyken's Rift? Just questions I am asking myself as I noodle this through. I'll have go to the Foundry and try a few things out.
EDIT: virusdancer have you ever looked into what's better. Maco for the boost to fire rate or Adapted Maco for damage boost? From the Prospective of Torpdoe/mine damage.
If one was looking purely at increasing the damage, odds are it would be the 2pc Nukara's boost which is a Bonus boost instead of the Strength boost from the KHG/AMACO 2pc. You'd also be looking at the 2pc KHG/AMACO not boosting the mines.
As for the MACO/AKHG and CD reduction...I just had the 2pc from where I had been doing some CD reduction testing. The following does not include the broken 3pc Contractual Agreement which provides -5s to everything but Reputation abilities instead of just to Shield Heals on the use of a Shield Heal. Nor does it include Reciprocity's effect on Tac/Intel abilities.
I'm still not sure why the Grav was at 7.3s instead of 7.6s. It suggests that Opportunistic affects Weapon CDs as well as Captain Abilities (it does not affect BOFF abilities). Cause if I remove all my CD reduction gear (can't remove Opportunistic), all the BOFF abilities are at their normal CDs while the Weapons are benefiting from it. Interesting...would also explain the Neutronic being at 11.5s, with the 5% from 2pc MACO/AKHG, 5% from Opportunistic, and the 20% from the 2pc Delta Operations.
But yeah, that 2pc Nukara that the DPS folks are running for their energy weapons...would likely be the same for projectiles.
Great info, VD!
But I'm confused what 2-piece Nukara bonus you're referring to. The only things I see under Nukara rep are the console-beam-webmine set that gives Tetryon Amplification for a 2-piece bonus and the deflector-engines-shield set that gives Weapon Stabilizers for a 2-piece bonus.
What am I missing?
The only tip of the scale I think you forgot to mention dear Virus, is the part where when using all 3pcs. of either set, that the Grav torp comes out with +14% more crth and only -10% crtd, when compared to the neutronic torp which gets a 20% cd reduction + extra radiation dmg.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Top 3 Torpedo's are:
1. Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon Torpedo Launcher
2. Neutronic Torpedo Launcher
3. Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher
I've put them in this order for reason after all my hourly and daily testing these are how I would rate their performance.
Shortest Recharge Time
1. Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon Torpedo Launcher
2. Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher
3. Neutronic Torpedo Launcher
Most Full Spread II or III
1. Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon Torpedo Launcher
2. Gravimetric Torpedo Photon Launcher
3. Neutronic Torpedo Launcher
Highest DPS (damage per second)
1. Neutronic Torpedo Launcher
2. Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher
3. Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon Torpedo Launcher
Most Destructive with the hugest bang!
1. Gravimetric Torpedo Launcher
2. Neutronic Torpedo Launcher
3. Enhanced Bio-Molecular Torpedo Launcher
To me the Enhanced Bio-Molecular one does very good job, but the other two blow it out of the water.
Time will only tell!
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16463721
They added that +2.5% Bonus boost back in April...
With the set bonuses...
Protonic Arsenal (Gravimetric)
2pc: +22.9% Photon Damage Strength, +3% CrtH (everything), can FAW with the Experimental Proton Weapon
3pc: +10% CrtH (Photons), +10% CrtD (everything), can CRF with the Experimental Proton Weapon
Delta Operations (Neutronic)
2pc: +14.2% Radiation Damage Strength, +20% CD Reduction Neutronic Torpedo
3pc: Isokinetic Cannon (180 arc, X Kinetic Damage, 100% Shield Penetration, 60s CD)
VR Mk XII Proton Particle Stabilizer: +3 Weapon Power, +3 Engine Power, +17.3 Starship Electro-Plasma System, +13.1% Proton Damage Strength
VR Mk XII Bio-Neural Gel Pack: +2 Power All Subsystems, +19.8 Starship Shield Systems, +7% CD BOFF Abilities
Protonic Arsenal is the Proton Particle Stabilzer, the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, and the Experimental Proton Weapon.
Delta Operations is the Bio-Neural Gel Pack, the Neutronic Torpedo, Advanced Thoron Infused Polaron Beam Array, and Advanced Thoron Infused Dual Heavy Cannons (there's only a 3pc bonus for the four available pieces).
On the boat I'm dorking around with right now, I'm actually running both of those 3pcs.
Like any of the potential sets, it's going to come down to what works best for a particular build.
There are a bunch of 3pc weapon sets out there that provide different things.
Before I was dorking around with the build I am now, I was running both the 3pc Contractual and 3pc Harness. I've run 4pc Counter-Command Ordnance and 3pc Silent Enemy. I've run 3pc Appropriated Munitions and 3pc Predator. All sorts of things one might consider running depending on what they're trying to do...one should weigh all the components when making any decision, right?
I can destroy entire groups of NPCs with 1 Volley from Neutronic Torpedo Launcher which the Gravimetric Torpedo Launcher wouldn’t kill. A lot of the time the Neutronic Torpedo will kill the ship before the Gravimetric has managed to do any grav well damage.
Darn it typo again.
Oh yeah! I use the Neutronic Torpedo Launcher but in all fairness Gravimetric can do some serious damage too with some boosters and of course more boost to Neutronic..These two are very effective along with another bang-up that's not mentioned here.
Time will only tell!
TY, kindly for putting in the filler information, as it always helps!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Just a follow up. I did not find that Tyken's Rift 3 + HY Neutronic Torpedo combination to be effective at draining a targets power or shutting off a subsystem (no ship messages appeared on the target ships in the Foundry mission). I ran a DSD with the Secondary Deflector, three Embassy Mark 14 flow cap consoles and two Embassy Mark 12 flow cap consoles, and a flow caps skill at nine.
Minimax deals 929 (3347) Radiation Damage to you with Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III.
Minimax deals 27805 (81381) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to you with Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III.
Minimax deals 6682 (7949) Radiation Damage(Critical) to you with Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III.
Minimax deals 45098 (82824) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to you with Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III.
Minimax deals 5587 (7500) Radiation Damage(Critical) to you with Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III.
then my test run
Your Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III deals 33235 (72046) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Miss Sa.Tan.
Your Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III deals 2452 (4337) Radiation Damage(Critical) to Miss Sa.Tan.
Your Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III deals 62983 (120042) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Miss Sa.Tan.
Your Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III deals 7758 (9121) Radiation Damage(Critical) to Miss Sa.Tan.
Your Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III deals 64185 (124039) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Miss Sa.Tan.
Your Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III deals 8758 (9387) Radiation Damage(Critical) to Miss Sa.Tan.
Yea it can pretty much one shot anyone in pvp at any given time if it is buffed. And don't give me that o you need kinetic resist. My ship happens to have 68 resistance and aux to damps plus brace for impact and the test one had 56 resist with brace for impact. This thing is way strong mostly cause it will prock a radiation damage dropping a shield facing even with tac team or rsp allowing the other 2 to go strait to hull doing max damage! Test ship had rsp up. Thats my guess anyway on how it passes the shields with the last 2 that hit. the other torpedoes do not do that...
Admittedly I was more concerned with the kind of shot an engineer or a sci character and put out every 15 seconds, continuous fire on lots of targets in things like an STF or NWS, shots that have only Spread and maybe a single attack pattern behind it so that it can be used over and over and over and over.
Plus I admit I've never understood how people get those times-10 kind of hits on a weapon with only ~7500 base damage (thats what it shows on my current ship with Spread3 active). I mean APA is like +50%, and a crit even with 200% severity and 4 Amps, shouldn't that only push it up to like 38k? How does one double up even further beyond that, aside from a whole team's worth of debuffs?
Oddly enough you cannot put on any other torpedo in this game and get the same results. Quants will do the same base damage but your shields protect you so the actual damage you get hit by is reduced a lot. These torpedoes seam to hit the shields with one torpedo then the other 2 bypass shields no-matter if tac team is up rsp ect...
My test the same character as mini was running pretty much but on the romulan faction which gets a better decloak bonus plus a lot better crit damage bonus.
Starship Weapon Training: 99.5
Starship Projectile Training: 116.5
Variable boost from TT1 dependent on crew.
~9ish <10% CrtH
~94.8ish <100% CrtD
Sensor Scans, APB1, Ionic Turbulence possible
Enhanced Armor Penetration
2pc Nukara
2x AMP
No Torp Consoles, no Nukara Offensive Trait
Up to 10 stacks of Pedal to the Metal
Possible Space Flanking stuff
Hierarchy BOFF (Pirate)
Other debuffs as well as TacFleet may have been applied by other players.
Not built around torps. TS3 Neut (including the Rad) accounted for 24.787% of the toon's DPS, doing 4868.851 DPS. In something like CCA, it will be a higher percentage cause of flying around in circles (circle strafing the Entity) instead of doing more broadside circles/action like in ISA.
These are just the Kinetic parts of the damage...the actual hull hit and the raw damage of the attack. I'll SandyBrown any hull hits which were larger than the raw hit. This is from my last ISA run the other day.
Actual Hull Damage - Raw Damage - Crit, Flank, Etc
1847.75 - 9549.65 -
1780.8 - 10137.6 -
2128.87 - 10538.4 -
4130.08 - 20444.8 - Critical
2158.79 - 9065.25 -
14852.6 - 8198.25 -
4175.45 - 17533.6 - Critical
14934.5 - 8243.45 -
4720.84 - 19823.8 - Critical
16362.2 - 9031.51 - Kill
1616.8 - 8003.53 -
1370.87 - 8009.18 -
2177.05 - 9533.41 -
1537.45 - 7945.97 -
3845.47 - 19035.9 - Critical
1449.51 - 8468.63 -
12504.8 - 8401.64 -
17356.7 - 9025.47 - Kill
13637.6 - 9162.78 - Flank
15863 - 10657.9 - Flank
41126.4 - 21385.7 - Critical|Flank|Kill
30761.6 - 20668 - Critical|Flank
14661.1 - 9850.43 - Flank
15829.5 - 10635.4 - Flank
14482.9 - 9730.7 - Flank
30975.1 - 20811.4 - Critical|Flank
25522.6 - 10011.6 - Flank
28609.9 - 9343.55 - Flank
26392.4 - 10702.6 - Flank
3082.21 - 9539.84 -
2986.66 - 9244.1 -
2727.84 - 8443.02 -
2851.47 - 8825.68 -
6329.68 - 19591.2 - Critical
2840.04 - 8790.29 -
2934.85 - 9083.72 -
2874.57 - 8897.16 -
2822.88 - 8737.19 -
3175.49 - 9828.55 -
5892.51 - 18238.1 - Critical
2906.08 - 8994.7 -
2677.84 - 8288.25 -
3011.17 - 9319.96 -
6636.63 - 20541.2 - Critical
2376.83 - 8456.71 -
3723.87 - 9635.95 -
2879.24 - 8507.3 -
2742.76 - 9758.67 - Flank
5734.71 - 20404 - Critical|Flank
2663 - 9474.88 - Flank
2942.74 - 9108.16 - Flank
2562.74 - 9118.15 - Flank
3209.87 - 9336.62 - Flank
3207.07 - 9926.29 - Flank
5844.48 - 20794.5 - Critical|Flank
17136.4 - 9755.33 - Flank
18059.3 - 8943.32 - Flank
16672.5 - 9491.23 - Flank
32158.1 - 18306.8 - Critical|Flank
2880.21 - 8914.6 -
3771.67 - 9243.55 -
35843.5 - 17750.4 - Critical
3099.45 - 9593.19 -
2722.62 - 8426.84 -
2872.47 - 8890.68 -
18181.8 - 9003.98 -
37142.3 - 18393.6 - Critical|Kill
2685.19 - 8311.01 -
17662.7 - 8746.92 -
6860.67 - 21234.7 - Critical
13916 - 9349.84 -
17312 - 9855.29 -
17308.3 - 9853.17 -
2652.14 - 9436.25 -
2537.78 - 9029.37 -
3437.77 - 8895.62 -
9506.04 - 17851.6 - Critical
5115.56 - 9606.59 -
2777.37 - 8310.12 -
2328.65 - 9778.51 -
3651.6 - 9448.93 -
2307.87 - 8211.32 -
13142.4 - 8830.08 -
16881.6 - 9610.27 -
31893.9 - 18156.4 - Critical
38471.8 - 19052 - Critical|Kill
19184.7 - 9500.66 - Flank
21497.2 - 10645.9 - Flank
20507.6 - 10155.8 - Flank
13749 - 9237.64 -
30165.8 - 20267.6 - Critical
2379.14 - 9990.54 -
2908.65 - 10604.5 -
2994.5 - 10917.4 -
19661.7 - 8316.73 - Kill
5816.13 - 17762.3 - Critical
3948.59 - 8969.54 -
3824.3 - 8866.97 - Flank
3639.64 - 8267.74 -
56125.8 - 18807.8 - Critical|Flank
28837.6 - 10698 - Flank
29112.4 - 9755.6 - Flank
3643.23 - 8275.89 -
29334.8 - 10501.6 - Flank
58465.3 - 21689.1 - Critical|Flank
2663.51 - 9476.7 -
7827.47 - 20254.5 - Critical
2593.74 - 9228.45 -
2565.04 - 9126.33 - Flank
2305.26 - 8202.05 -
2396.77 - 8527.64 -
2417.37 - 8600.93 -
17928.3 - 10206.1 - Flank
2589.58 - 9213.64 -
2973.61 - 10580 - Flank
34061.1 - 19390.1 - Critical|Flank
2505.59 - 8914.84 -
2659.68 - 9463.06 -
5078.18 - 18068 - Critical
2624.53 - 9338 -
10624.8 - 8672.12 -
23748.9 - 19085.8 - Critical|Flank
27462.2 - 20676.2 - Critical
25171.1 - 8706.43 -
59346.1 - 21437.6 - Critical
11713.3 - 8409.53 -
14295.6 - 9630.18 -
14757.2 - 9204.39 -
6070.31 - 9268.04 -
10800 - 8972.54 -
12000.1 - 8784.36 -
22325 - 9273.92 -
13203.3 - 9438.55 -
23079.1 - 9357.68 - Kill
49322.3 - 20368.9 - Critical|Flank
24089.1 - 9948.2 - Flank|Kill
8835.13 - 20883 - Critical
4360.98 - 9225.38 -
2676.69 - 9523.6 -
40401.7 - 19115.7 - Critical
35135.2 - 20495.5 - Critical
18850.3 - 8918.84 -
17373.5 - 8603.71 -
22506 - 9519.83 -
18731.8 - 8717.72 -
17048.9 - 9705.54 -
32256.4 - 18362.8 - Critical
2290.07 - 8843.81 -
2830.35 - 9729.2 -
5376.99 - 11146.5 -
5683.01 - 9132.11 -
4573.37 - 8165.47 -
3667.79 - 8465.27 -
24489.2 - 10183.7 - Flank
21988.6 - 9143.86 -
19649.6 - 8171.2 -
Science rom here that been running a torpedo boat strictly for the last year. As the ship I currently using has five fwd slots.
My neutronic base damage is 11k. The other quantum Torps are 10, 10, 9, and 8k. I have no epic torp weapons yet and that is when they are on my ship without spread active