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  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    kavase wrote: »
    Are you sure about that? Last I checked the queues I used to play all the time by pugging can't be done because there's a bunch of 0s on them. I could try to get my friends to play instead but, oh look, they're gone but one and that last one is only here doing doff assignments and R&D because he is tired of doing patrol missions in order to progress through the main story arc.

    So no, sorry, can't go back to having fun before DR, nice try though.

    I have no problem getting games on the ques, I played 4 last night while I was waiting for epohh doff missions to complete.
    I played the cure found, CC, starbase defender and no win and we won all except no win of course.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • furiontassadarfuriontassadar Member Posts: 475 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Anyways, since I already have a job (thankfully), then I choose to play a game to have fun. And with STO, I am having fun. Maybe because I can only play for about 45 minutes a day I don't feel like I'm "grinding" anything ... I guess I'm lucky?

    You just described why I, and perhaps others, are having so much issues with STO since DR.

    See, I used to have fun queing up for STFs and just shooting stuff and getting something out of it. I can no longer do that because, even if I personally improve myself, there's still a chance that I will be grouped up with folks that either intentionally attempt to TRIBBLE over everyone else in the STF, or quite simply don't know what they are doing, and believe that they can still be carried. It's especially frustrating when it comes to something like Undine Infiltration, which should essentially be free dilithium and crafting mats with how easy it is, even on Advanced and Elite, but one can be instantly screwed out of all that mere minutes of starting the STF if someone, out of either malice or ignorance, doesn't do the interrogation phase correctly.

    I also really enjoy the story content, and still do, but it is also frustrating that Cryptic now asks players to do patrol missions over and over again in order to progress through the story, where they didn't before. It's like asking someone to rewatch the same episode of something over and over again (and not even one of the good episodes), before they are allowed to watch the new episode of a TV series.

    And while it may seem to be a choice to do Argala over and over again to get specialization points, it starts to feel like less of a choice when that is the only meaningful way to get specialization points. It would be nice if we could see that same sort of meaningful gain when we were playing the content we do enjoy (ques, story content, battlezones, etc.) rather than just the DR patrols.

    I think I get what you're saying, that's it all about mindset, and we shouldn't approach it as being a grind, but the thing is, it's not like my mindset suddenly changed when DR came out. As I mentioned, I still really enjoy the story content and even the STFs (again, rather than throwing in the towel upon learning the increase in the difficulty, I have been working on improving myself), but Cryptic DID change how things like the story content and STFs work, and as result, myself and others are not having as much fun as we once did, or we could be. As such, since it is Cryptic that did change, and not us, I don't think it's unfair to ask that Cyptic should be the one to fix things. We shouldn't have to be the ones to shrug and go "Ah well, this is how things are from now on." As you joked, at that point, what's to stop people from, instead, shrugging and going "Ah well, if this is how things are going to be from now, I might as well not play."?

    Finally, I'm really glad you are still enjoying yourself, I truly am. However, it starts to get into "I have a sandwhich, how can you be hungry??" territory when you can't seem to wrap you head around why people might not be as entirely pleased with everything as you seem to be.
    "There will never be enough blood to wash away my need for vengeance! A single world...I could destroy a million worlds and it would not be enough! Your existence is an insult to the memory of my people! I will continue my fight, even if I must fight alone!"
  • lored2deathlored2death Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    No change to critter XP but buffs to DR patrols, Dyson being altered (and I won't hold my breath that its a net gain for players), nothing that might allieviate empty queues, only one decent place to grind skill points (DR again), nothing on easing dilithium cuts or any easing of any kind of almost any issues that have been posted since DR was released.

    Come, chattle. We are being herded to the Delta Quadrant! Mrrrooooo!!!
  • darthpetersendarthpetersen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Because to proof "Delta Rising is the BEST expansion EVER and players LOVE it", there must give players a reason to get back to Delta Quadrant. So they are pushing the DR patrol missions.

    I can only speak for myself, but i haven't visited the Delta Quadrant for weeks now and i won't visit it after this patch. Didn't realy played STO for days now either. Just doffing and authoring in the Foundry.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • turbionturbion Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Still no significant change in the xp needed to level up past level 50/xp awarded by story missions or even duty officer assignments. No changes to dilithium costs for upgrading.

    I still have no interest in playing the game. The new carrier is interesting, but unless it provides increased xp gain while playing, it won't solve my issues with the game.
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Didn't Geko say the patrols were under rewarding 3x the xp, so now they just doubled it? Pretty shady to me
    Delirium Tremens
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  • lored2deathlored2death Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    nicha0 wrote: »
    Didn't Geko say the patrols were under rewarding 3x the xp, so now they just doubled it? Pretty shady to me


    They did the exact same thing with dilithium rewards right after DR. They made huge cuts to rewards then a patch (or the 2nd one) came along and the notes read like they were giving a buff to dilithium. The end result was a pretty sizeable cut in what we were getting pre-DR.

    This is getting to be used car salesman psychology. Cheap and low but apparently affective.
  • swatopswatop Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Id suggest you all use the chance and make lots of xp during the next week.
    Next week they will call it exploit and divide the rewards by 10.
  • kristaswiftkristaswift Member Posts: 306 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    swatop wrote: »
    Id suggest you all use the chance and make lots of xp during the next week.
    Next week they will call it exploit and divide the rewards by 10.

    Remember they think NOTHING to see here. XP nerfing is a figure of your imagination :D
  • edited December 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • ffttfftt Member Posts: 715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    js26568 wrote: »
    Not all patrols, just the DQ ones. It's to keep players in the Delta Quadrant...

    Didn't work for me.

    Turkey day was actually the first day I warped to the Delta Quadrant - spent the day going through the content. Luckily I was already level 60 so I didn't require all the patrol replays to get to the last mission. Only gained two specializations points for all those missions :(

    But that was just one of my three characters. I have no intentions of going back there or advancing the remaining two characters to the last existing mission.
  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Actually, they didn't use the word "nerf" or "buff". The operative word they used is "Re-balanced".

    I'm suuuuuure it will come out being a beneficial thing to players. All the other recent XP "adjustments" have been after all. :rolleyes:

    The forums will light up and tell the truth about it later tomorrow.

    So ... opinions?
  • captainzheicaptainzhei Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    Not everyone is like you.

    No one is like him. No one is like you. We all go about our own way. But he did offer you a competent suggestion on how to enjoy the game. Maybe you could *consider* the suggestion instead of dismissing the man outright.
    ==========================================
    Captaincy, Excelsior-Class U.S.S. Bianca Beauchamp NCC-99947-F

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • swatopswatop Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Remember they think NOTHING to see here. XP nerfing is a figure of your imagination :D

    just like dead queues or lag or failing optionsals on adv. or the 20% players that left again since DR release, right?
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I tried the Argala patrol today.

    It used to only give me Kazon but now it gave the other two though I exited and returned about 10 times.

    Anyway. One of them gave 10,000 and the other 11,000 total on normal. I assume the Kazon will give 12,000.

    So it's about 15 times per spec point. Eh, I think I'll skip it.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • swatopswatop Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    only 15?
    before it was 16.... so its a major improvement... NOT!!!
  • veryth12veryth12 Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Meh. I still don't see any real problem with the 55-60 xp requirements. I understand and accept why they are the way they are. Why rush into the new story content anyway? Wait a few weeks, doff, play PvE, get your toon to level 60 and then consume the story content, that is what I did. I had my main toon to level 60 within about 2 weeks just from doffing and running a few STFs. My farmer toons that i never do anything on other than doff are all right around level 58 at the moment. I mean, they are still changing stuff even now with the new content, so why do we need to rush into it? Now everyone that hurried up and did the "story patrols" is pissed off cause they got cheated out of xp they could of had.

    My gripe with DR was and still is the fact that is was released half done and the cost of the upgrading gear and ships is far too much. I never thought the xp and leveling was broken.

    The problem is that your level dictates what you can do in the game. People want to be settign themselves up for doing elite STFs, which you need to be 60 for. In most MMOs you don't really get to play the game until you get to max level. That was one of the things I liked about STO, you used to get to max level pretty quickly, and it was all story misions. The leveling from 50 to 60 is just mindless xp farming.

    To use an anology, if playing the game was like writting, the old leveling would be you deciding to write stories to get better at it. The lvl 50-60 leveling would be deciding to sit and copy the dictionary in order to get better. Doing Argala 15,000 times does not add any enjoyment to a player's time in the game. If they wanted to make the levels a grind like they did, they should have given very large xp rewards for battle zone, like Kobali Prime, and for doing STFs. Those should be the "grind" areas you hang out in.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    veryth12 wrote: »
    The problem is that your level dictates what you can do in the game. People want to be settign themselves up for doing elite STFs, which you need to be 60 for. In most MMOs you don't really get to play the game until you get to max level. That was one of the things I liked about STO, you used to get to max level pretty quickly, and it was all story misions. The leveling from 50 to 60 is just mindless xp farming.

    To use an anology, if playing the game was like writting, the old leveling would be you deciding to write stories to get better at it. The lvl 50-60 leveling would be deciding to sit and copy the dictionary in order to get better. Doing Argala 15,000 times does not add any enjoyment to a player's time in the game. If they wanted to make the levels a grind like they did, they should have given very large xp rewards for battle zone, like Kobali Prime, and for doing STFs. Those should be the "grind" areas you hang out in.

    YOu have chosen to do Argala 15,000 times (apparently). But you don't need to.

    It seems people only look for one value - the highest skill point pay out (if Argala really is the highest one). But why not also consider "what is the most fun way to earn skill points?" And that can be a day to day or hour to hour or minute to minute decision.

    The purpose of the game is not to have level 60 and all specialization points unlocked. The game is about the journey there. And eve if you got it all unlocked - the game is still there, including Argala and all the other activities.


    I think the only activiites in the game where you really might feel the need for specs is Elite PvE and PvP.

    I am afraid PvP may have been hurt deeply by specializations, even though I like the general concept, it just creates a huge barrier for PvP players that desire "balanced" starting points. Even if gaining skill points and upgrading gear was much fatser than is, it would not look very good, and specializations are designed to be extensible - that means Cryptic will keep adding more. It is like the old reputation problem, really. And PvP already has so many barriers to entry - DOFF integration into your build, competititon with lockbox ships and fleet ships or gear. I think something like an instutionalized Vanilla PvP may be the only way to save PvP.

    PvE Elite - I can see people'S desire to go there, but - you can also do Advanced Queues - and you don't strictly need spec points to start doing Elite.
    That said - I think Cryptic really should look into two aspects there:
    - Failure Rates for Advanced (and they claim they are doing that in the last 2 podcasts, but I think there have been no actual changes yet...)
    - Skill Point Payouts. A Queue mission should have payouts comparable to the other "skill grinders" (considering the time required). Queued missions have extra requirements, like you need a team, and tend to have higher difficulty, too.


    I think the "grind" to Level 60 and to unlock the Delta Rising missions is likely to stay, even if some dislike it - Because it is a way to address "story-only" players that only join the game to play a new story mission and then leave again. If they need to actually play the game for a few days or weeks to get to the missions, Cryptic will lose some of them, sure - but the others are now sustained players, and they may stick around for longer than just the missions this time. And thus they may join and participate in fleets, do queued missions, use the Exchange(s), effectively acting as content for other players - and maybe they even end up buying stuff outright. It is a net win for Cryptic. And it may be a net win for everyone that wants missions, too - because using this "trick", missions might become more valuable to Cryptic's revenue and happen more often.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • veryth12veryth12 Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    YOu have chosen to do Argala 15,000 times (apparently). But you don't need to.

    It seems people only look for one value - the highest skill point pay out (if Argala really is the highest one). But why not also consider "what is the most fun way to earn skill points?" And that can be a day to day or hour to hour or minute to minute decision.

    The purpose of the game is not to have level 60 and all specialization points unlocked. The game is about the journey there. And eve if you got it all unlocked - the game is still there, including Argala and all the other activities.


    I think the only activiites in the game where you really might feel the need for specs is Elite PvE and PvP.

    I am afraid PvP may have been hurt deeply by specializations, even though I like the general concept, it just creates a huge barrier for PvP players that desire "balanced" starting points. Even if gaining skill points and upgrading gear was much fatser than is, it would not look very good, and specializations are designed to be extensible - that means Cryptic will keep adding more. It is like the old reputation problem, really. And PvP already has so many barriers to entry - DOFF integration into your build, competititon with lockbox ships and fleet ships or gear. I think something like an instutionalized Vanilla PvP may be the only way to save PvP.

    PvE Elite - I can see people'S desire to go there, but - you can also do Advanced Queues - and you don't strictly need spec points to start doing Elite.
    That said - I think Cryptic really should look into two aspects there:
    - Failure Rates for Advanced (and they claim they are doing that in the last 2 podcasts, but I think there have been no actual changes yet...)
    - Skill Point Payouts. A Queue mission should have payouts comparable to the other "skill grinders" (considering the time required). Queued missions have extra requirements, like you need a team, and tend to have higher difficulty, too.


    I think the "grind" to Level 60 and to unlock the Delta Rising missions is likely to stay, even if some dislike it - Because it is a way to address "story-only" players that only join the game to play a new story mission and then leave again. If they need to actually play the game for a few days or weeks to get to the missions, Cryptic will lose some of them, sure - but the others are now sustained players, and they may stick around for longer than just the missions this time. And thus they may join and participate in fleets, do queued missions, use the Exchange(s), effectively acting as content for other players - and maybe they even end up buying stuff outright. It is a net win for Cryptic. And it may be a net win for everyone that wants missions, too - because using this "trick", missions might become more valuable to Cryptic's revenue and happen more often.

    Before Delta Rising, when I logged in, there was not too many things I felt I *had* to do. I pretty much could just do whatever I wanted to have fun. If I was feeling a bit lethargic I would just do some quasi-rp things for myself. Run a story I enjoyed, fly around a battle zone for a bit, and just let the wind take me where ever I might go. Now when I log in, anytime I am not earning xp, a voice in the back of my head is saying "you shouldn't be dicking around in the night club, you still have specialization points to get."

    Now, don't get me wrong, I do not expect a 5 minute jont from 50 to max specialization 60, but having to grind as much as we have to for the xp makes me feel like other things are a waste of time and, personally serves only as a huge gap that cannot be easily closed between new players and older players while also not being very fun. When I was earning one mission a level getting to 50, I did not care if a mission was long (read, not a good xp per hour ratio) because it was entertaining and fun. I think that in of itself is the thing I dislike about the 50-60 leveling exerience: the lack of fun while getting xp, you are basically encouraged to do the same thing over and over and over. The worse part is no matter what you do to get the next level, you have to do it a lot. If you did the story missions and then had to run 4-5 patrols, that would not be a big deal but when I was leveling it was not fun at all to do one story mission and then be forced to go do 20-25 patrols so that I could unlock the next story mission. It would be like driving from maine to florida to visit disney world and once there you pop out of the car, take a picture with Mickey, and then go home. You spent round trip about 4 days of driving just for 5 minutes of fun.


    All I am suggesting is that STFs and battle zones (or at least Kaboli prime if they want to force us into the DQ) should be the grind content. They should have the best xp/hr rewards so that not only do people feel rewarded for going there, but it would help flesh out the queues. To be clear, I do not mean nerf the current solo xp so that STFs and battle zones are good, but to buff the STFs and battlezones to be better than solo xp to encourage people to be there and reward the fact it is a team effort. The cooldowns on the queues would help to encourage people to do a lot of different STFs, and might even encourage people to play some of the lesser played STFs if the rewards were adjusted well.

    I can live with the xp grind in leveling if they really feel it needs to be added to the game, they just need to design it better by having the battle zone(s) and STFs be the grind locations so it is a little more fun, not the DQ patrols which are monotonus (and btw, do not make sense in a story aspect to do more than once, all of them have very specific things happening that fit with the story line that do not make sense to happen more than once).


    This is not old school Everquest where you find a spot in the world, sit there and mindlessly kill everything nearby for hours on end for no reason other than earning xp.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    veryth12 wrote: »
    Before Delta Rising, when I logged in, there was not too many things I felt I *had* to do. I pretty much could just do whatever I wanted to have fun. If I was feeling a bit lethargic I would just do some quasi-rp things for myself. Run a story I enjoyed, fly around a battle zone for a bit, and just let the wind take me where ever I might go. Now when I log in, anytime I am not earning xp, a voice in the back of my head is saying "you shouldn't be dicking around in the night club, you still have specialization points to get."

    Now, don't get me wrong, I do not expect a 5 minute jont from 50 to max specialization 60, but having to grind as much as we have to for the xp makes me feel like other things are a waste of time and, personally serves only as a huge gap that cannot be easily closed between new players and older players while also not being very fun. When I was earning one mission a level getting to 50, I did not care if a mission was long (read, not a good xp per hour ratio) because it was entertaining and fun. I think that in of itself is the thing I dislike about the 50-60 leveling exerience: the lack of fun while getting xp, you are basically encouraged to do the same thing over and over and over. The worse part is no matter what you do to get the next level, you have to do it a lot. If you did the story missions and then had to run 4-5 patrols, that would not be a big deal but when I was leveling it was not fun at all to do one story mission and then be forced to go do 20-25 patrols so that I could unlock the next story mission. It would be like driving from maine to florida to visit disney world and once there you pop out of the car, take a picture with Mickey, and then go home. You spent round trip about 4 days of driving just for 5 minutes of fun.


    All I am suggesting is that STFs and battle zones (or at least Kaboli prime if they want to force us into the DQ) should be the grind content. They should have the best xp/hr rewards so that not only do people feel rewarded for going there, but it would help flesh out the queues. To be clear, I do not mean nerf the current solo xp so that STFs and battle zones are good, but to buff the STFs and battlezones to be better than solo xp to encourage people to be there and reward the fact it is a team effort. The cooldowns on the queues would help to encourage people to do a lot of different STFs, and might even encourage people to play some of the lesser played STFs if the rewards were adjusted well.

    I can live with the xp grind in leveling if they really feel it needs to be added to the game, they just need to design it better by having the battle zone(s) and STFs be the grind locations so it is a little more fun, not the DQ patrols which are monotonus (and btw, do not make sense in a story aspect to do more than once, all of them have very specific things happening that fit with the story line that do not make sense to happen more than once).


    This is not old school Everquest where you find a spot in the world, sit there and mindlessly kill everything nearby for hours on end for no reason other than earning xp.

    I think the the very idea of the specializations is that it's a very, very long term goal to get them. They are something you should implicitely pursue by doing whatever you like.

    How did you handle reputations before? Were they all must-haves? Or did you do them when you felt like it?


    But it seems it's not working for people. It seems so much in focus compared to other activities and goals.

    Maybe it would have been better if it was 180 points already, each point granting only 1/3 of what you get now. But you'd get the satisfying "level-up-bell" more often, and that might make it easier to not look for the most straight way.

    There must be other games that have these kind of long-term goals for players - how do they do it? Or do players there complain just as much?
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    There must be other games that have these kind of long-term goals for players - how do they do it? Or do players there complain just as much?

    Patience, diligence and determination?
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Patience, diligence and determination?

    So same as here, and we're just hearing the usual message board noise? I am open to the possibility, but I am also eager to see if there aren't some tweaks possible (or neccessary. Or maybe not even tweaks, but sweeping changes. Whatever.)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • kavasekavase Member Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    There must be other games that have these kind of long-term goals for players - how do they do it? Or do players there complain just as much?

    STO just isn't that type of game(or at least it wasn't at one point). Yes, it had its grind elements to it in the past, but now it's quiet signifacant then what it used to be.

    Other games that have these long-term goals for players, had them from the begining, so as a player, you know what to expect. You either like it and stay or don't and move on and not bother with it and don't put any signifcant time or effort into it.

    STO has changed its identity from what it once was, and is pretty much being the core of the problem as of late. People have committed to this game regardless if it's time or money or both, for what it used to be, not for what it is now and that doesn't sit well with many.
    Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
  • atlmyklatlmykl Member Posts: 305 Arc User1
    edited December 2014
    I think the the very idea of the specializations is that it's a very, very long term goal to get them. They are something you should implicitely pursue by doing whatever you like.

    How did you handle reputations before? Were they all must-haves? Or did you do them when you felt like it?


    But it seems it's not working for people. It seems so much in focus compared to other activities and goals.

    Maybe it would have been better if it was 180 points already, each point granting only 1/3 of what you get now. But you'd get the satisfying "level-up-bell" more often, and that might make it easier to not look for the most straight way.

    There must be other games that have these kind of long-term goals for players - how do they do it? Or do players there complain just as much?

    Sadly most see it... want it right now... complain they are being 'forced' to do it. Most players have shown time and time again they need time gates forced on them. DR ruined my life post would be down if they had gated it to something like 1/2 a point per day.
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