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I do worry about the population...
dykeras
Member Posts: 326 Arc User
1, I was there in 2005 for Starwars NGE and how it took a good/great game (imho) and killed it - first started the forum moaning, complaining , the devs oblivious and too arrogant to admit the mistake, then the mass exodus until finally destroyed the game :-(
2, I was there in 2003 for Ultima Online 'Age of shadows' when they turned an amazing game full of depth and community into a stat-heavy clusterf**k - again there were the moaning on the forums, devs didn't listen and then began the mass exodus ... Ultima online now exists as a mere shadow of what it once was, which is a shame as it was truly special.
Both these games had their fare share of 'White knights' defending the changes, sadly after the mass exodus, the 'white knights' either played alone or found another game (Ultima online is a great example of a MMorpg played as a single player game due to so few players, and this once had arguably one of if not the best gaming communities of all time (Player-run cities, world-wide meets with thousands of dedicated fans, in-game leading to rel-life marriages)
I bring this up as over the last 2 weeks I have seen fewer and fewer people playing - Fleet rosters empty, pve queues empty or crazy wait times (Starbase 24 a prime example).
I do love the game, and I do hope the dev's are listening to the problems people are having nd address them - before the mass exodus becomes critical :mad:
2, I was there in 2003 for Ultima Online 'Age of shadows' when they turned an amazing game full of depth and community into a stat-heavy clusterf**k - again there were the moaning on the forums, devs didn't listen and then began the mass exodus ... Ultima online now exists as a mere shadow of what it once was, which is a shame as it was truly special.
Both these games had their fare share of 'White knights' defending the changes, sadly after the mass exodus, the 'white knights' either played alone or found another game (Ultima online is a great example of a MMorpg played as a single player game due to so few players, and this once had arguably one of if not the best gaming communities of all time (Player-run cities, world-wide meets with thousands of dedicated fans, in-game leading to rel-life marriages)
I bring this up as over the last 2 weeks I have seen fewer and fewer people playing - Fleet rosters empty, pve queues empty or crazy wait times (Starbase 24 a prime example).
I do love the game, and I do hope the dev's are listening to the problems people are having nd address them - before the mass exodus becomes critical :mad:
Post edited by dykeras on
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The work to reward ratio is badly skewed now. The NPCs pay out nothing and are nothing more than hit point sponges, even with the sophisticated new ground AI that means the NPCs in the Kobali ground zone always try to run behind you. Always. Every time. Try my fun game of standing with your back to a wall and laugh at how they react.
That's why no one is playing.
Free Tibet!
i've been playing since beta,yes that long
i am also captain of a fleet that goes back to beta,yes that long
from the roster of our two allied fleets we have lost roughly 75% of people that used to be regular players,many were established and dedicated fleet members
from my personal friends list of over 300, i only see 6-10 now after delta and its ensuing aftermath on a regular basis
first and foremost let me state i am not moaning or deriding the game
please take note though cryptic that, recent changes have had a detrimental effect on your player base,it makes me wonder what the future holds
do you or would you make your population metrics available for outside perusal?
i would like to think that the future for sto remains bright and i continue to put a brave face on it and remain positive but we as a fleet are hemorrhaging players like there is no tomorrow
i have also spent years,yes years, recruiting people to both our fleets,recently i (and others who also recruit) have noticed that there are no new players appearing, no lost souls running around the ghetto on Qonos, no pleas for help in finding the shipyard on esd
this is real cause for concern, as, without new blood the future suddenly loses its glimmer
i would like to know what the community managers think of this dilemna
kay
Don't know you about either...but my fleets (more than 1) are virtually empty. Not the same ebb/flow as seen before with every version (9.5X) or expansions (2x). This close to the holidays and still our rosters took a dump since DR. Some might be really hard core gamers and small fleets made up of those wont see much change. However, those with topping 500 or so would see that LOTs of casual players have given up....human logic...who the heck wants to grind for ever with no end level game in sight...even a mouse catches the cheese.
Cryptic has messed up the game post DR. IMO we might see it Ok thru weekend increases until the winter event ends. Come January this will be a very different game if DEVs nor MR EP listen to the playerbase.
Yeah, I realise there has always been forum moaning ' Scimitar op, Bfaw op, Feds get too many ships, Sci powers too weak, etc... '
But this feels different, when every post for the last few weeks have been on the same or similar topic then that is a cause for concern... and as I have stated, I have seen the warning signs before when the Dev's didn't listen.
While that is true (with any forum), especially if a tasty bit of cheese you have found and enjoy is abruptly taken away, so - yes, while that is true ... what this guy is saying is not that sort of stuff. As, upsetting, as that is to face up to.
To the OP, there are some upsides here. Even though most of the pve que content was pretty bluntly made-harder (mountains of shield and hull) some advanced ques are just starting to sort out into something that's do-able and halfway fun. Unfortunately though, that VERY MODEST success is limited by the fact that there are so few people playing them right now. And, it's only sorting out on a couple ques, many are still complete messes.
Modest success encourages bad group-think
> "hey look, that one thing is starting to sort out, lets give it time, maybe the other things will too!".
The game is being hit with a deadly double wammy. (1) Too much change at once, a fair amount of it mixed or poor change. And it was stuff supposedly tested on the test-server. and (2) Unwillingness (fear?, corporate whatever?) to address resulting problems.
Restraint is good, especially when things have changed so much already. But I'd say the game is in trouble, and needs a massive infrastructure (balance, bugs, and accessibility) investment right now. More simple clear-win micro-changes could/should be rolled out.
The big thing that killed with NGE is that they truly believed that they were improving the game. And, players eventually agreed that some of that was true. But they essentially took away people shiny red toys to do it, changing the game inherently means that what the game was, ends.
And yeah, SOE scoffed at and ignored poeple when they complained and said "this won't work". In the interviews afterward one company guy said "essentially, we thought that with the improved game, we could get new customers". They had it wrong though, pretty much in the entire world, all the people that wanted to play SWG, well they were playing SWG already.
people who play mmo, aren't exactly a population of people who like change
but
games have to evolve or die
it's a tough nut to crack. But I think the solution there is in the language. Evolve >> Change.
W/e though. All I can say is that I hope the alarm bells have gone off (in a good way), especially with the overseas bean counters.
SWG never went f2p, it remained sub based for its remaining 4 years of Julio Torres and John Smedley mistakes. Not to mention, in the last 2 years or so they finally started bringing it back to the way it was as best they could, plus we got atmospheric flight, battle of hoth, hell end game dungeons in general besides grinding the dwb for the 10th plus mando suit.
I think a contributing factor for low populations is that the adv and elite queues are indeed harder to pug for, plus the fact that there just isn't that many end level players yet, I am certain there is a good amount like myself that is just casually leveling, doing like a mission a day and some doffing (which we all know amounts to nothing now)
So throw in not as many end level players yet, coupled with more demanding requirements to succeed, the holidays, the hate, the love.. I say we are lower than last year, but probably not as doom and gloom yet as it is perceived.
Mine is dead for all intents and purposes. shrug
but since all the nerfs hit the fleet is like a ghost town. risa used to always be full of people playing dabo sunning on the beach actually talking to one another. now all you find are a few scattered players and mostly trolls. who think its their main mission in life to torment other players till they finally leave the planet. yes they brought back club 47 but that lost its allure within 48 hours. the game looks more and more like a ghost town and that really saddens me. I still believe this game could be soo much more if the devs would just reconsider and undo the restrictions they put on us. case in point. nerve tonic. once a sellable and tradable commodity. created many hours of fun for female toons. but now its bound and you can only get one at a time. they removed the emote packs from the c store. many players will never get to experience the wonder of being able to bow or shoo something away. or do the jester dance or air gitare.sorry for my grammer. please cryptic were begging you. please let us have back the old game soo many of have come to love soo much. let us experience the wonder of the way it was. please remove the restrictions and let the game live again.
Basically trying to Q to 10-20 player missions is a waste of time, unless your suicidal or otherwise nuts. And even if it the launcher would pop, it would fail for someone afking.
and its frustrating. I want the old game back. I want my friends back. I miss the fellowship we all had in days gone by
I just came back to the game after a nearly three year absence myself, I joined back up with the fleet I was in before I quit and they are the same people, but now it is ALL about damage output, they talk about nothing else. They use that app that displays the damage done by their parties and on more than one occasion there was someone with them who was embarrassed by how little damage they did. That kind of thing is unhealthy for the survival of a fleet. You cannot be constantly busy if you cannot retain your newer or, for lack of a better term, your "lower class" players. Do not get hung up on this ONE thing though, there are numerous other things that contribute to fleets dying, this is just ONE example.
The same goes for friends lists, you all need to clean house from time to time. You got someone in your fleet that has been inactive for a month with no known excuse? Kick them out and recruit some more, if they come back they will give you a holler, and if they do not call you back then they really aren't invested anyway. Do the same with your friends list, clean house, if you got a "friend" that has not logged in in over a month, guess what, they aren't your friend anymore get rid of them, if they do return and they shoot your a message, add them back, if not, then you will know who your friends really are.
The problems stated in this thread have nothing to do with the game, it has to do with bad fleets. Bad fleets are bad, and they fail as a result. Running and maintaining a fleet is WORK and it is constant, you can never relax.
Also, some said something about no new people? That is just insane or just ignorance(not knowing), Since my return I spent quite a bit of time on the "new" ESD and I see plenty of people asking new person questions all day long, every day. If you are not seeing new people come in, perhaps it is because you are not looking? That would be my guess, you are just oblivious to it, so wrapped up in trying to make money off the exchange or running STFs for marks and currency items, or maybe even have zone chat turned off because of the ESD trolls. Just oblivious to what is going on around you.
I am coming back with fresh eyes though, a fresh perspective. Since my return, I have had a great deal of fun playing this game. Sure, there is lots of grinding, but I have NEVER played a game(online) that didn't have grinding in it. Seriously, if grinding is your issue, then go play a console game or something, play it for like a week and then resell it. I challenge anyone to name an online game with no grind to it. GW2? Nope they got grinding. PWI? Nope, they got grinding. WoW? Nope there is grind there too. Star Wars? You guessed it, grinding. ESO? Come on, grinding!
Personally, I think this thread was opened just out of frustration at the OP's own lack of whatever it is he/she/it is after.
I see people in this game everywhere in every sector, always on the move, always doing something and at any time of the day be it in the morning, midday and even very late at night. People who cannot see activity in this game are just blind.
Cryptic does listen to player complaints. The queues, upgrade system, etc are on the table for revision. Take a listen to Priority One's podcast #199. It's a long one, but there's great information about how the devs are responding to player concerns in the next few weeks.
Honestly, you are really out of touch with reality. NGE didn't kill SGW? Seriously? Just because it was part of the Sony package and one sub means anyone could play it while it sat on life support doesn't mean it was alive and doing ok. It died. Running costs for MMOs are pretty small, initial and later development is what costs the money, so keeping it alive to draw in a few more suckers always happens.
As for STO, there were more than enough level 60 players by the end of the first weekend to make the queues active, and they were, until they just gave up and left.
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I hear your concerns. But it seems to me that the real issue here is PWE's, and hence Cryptic's, sheer Avarice! They have made the game such a grind. And now they seem to be wanting to "cash in" as though they expect the game to fail. My problem is that I have too many alts and I cannot afford to upgrade. So I can't expect to be able to compete and succeed in any Elite Content.
And LTS or not... Love the game or not... I will be forced to go elsewhere and spend my money.
Nice attack against me, you have gained 320 xp for it.
No NGE did not kill it, maybe your server or whatever, but as I stated, the population did drop a lot, I wasn't arguing that. However the game kept going as a paid sub model not a f2p model, for 4 years more...that doesn't sound like it killed the game. Most of the people I was with continued playing, I think I lost 1/3 of my friends list in the initial months of NGE and it stayed about that till the game closed.
Don't be angry at someone because they didn't share your experience.
some whales under the disappearing players
But there have been troubles too, that need to be addressed. The Advances PvE queues were changed for the worst. That are to hard and that is why the queues are empty. When I mean hard I mean the time/reward ratio.
It fair to accept that Pugging will always be a lottery. That is where the Normal/Easy tier should play a part. To allow players to learn how to do the task and practice. Then move to Advanced for better drops. This should have been left like the old elite system and not Nerfed. Poeplo can then gain the better kit and more experience at a harder level before rising to the Elite and Paly the uber hard stuff.
THe T6/T5-U and higer mark gear will take time to grind or buy. This was, I thought, for the Elite players, who knew the missions and can adapt their play style to achieve the goals.
Many players just want to Pew pew in a space ship and they should be allowed to. but they shouldn't be punnished because some players wanted more of a challenge. tHe Challenges are there now, but the middle ground has risen beyond the middle.
There are two options. add an Easy level with little reward and have Easy, Normal, Advanced and Elite and make the east available before level 50 for example.
The other is to make the current Advanced behave like the Old Elite. Ok people will have some T6 ships and or some MK XIII+ kit, so a little tougher NPC would probably be acceptable, but to make previously optional goal fail the mission is not right. This is why the queues are empty.
Change could be good or bad. F2P was a good idea. Nerfing STO to death is not bad...but HORRIBLE idea.
What will be, will be, if enough people stop playing, they will fix it; if this really is the best expansion ever, then nothing we say will make the tiniest difference.
We are the tiny 3% who are vocal, they will listen to us if, and only if, they think they need to do something to get players back.
Personally I think they know exactly what they are doing with all the nerfs, so I will be watching the forums closely over the next few months to see which way it goes.
I do hope they fix it, I miss playing quite a lot.
Been there at the swg nge too and i actually agree with you theres similarities. The NGE back then killed off their previous endgame and replaced it with some nonsense.. its totally the same here. The thing that i've been playing in this game all the way since launch was PVP, it was sort-of the only end-game this game really had. The specialization grind killed it.
I've like 15 toons that were max level, all fully rep and all equipped for pvp (2 aliens of each class for groundpvp (kling/fed), one cat of each class for ground pvp, an alien of each for space pvp and later added a romulan of each. So when DR hit i was looking at leveling up 10 levels on each (150 levels!) + leveling another rep up on each + upgrading gear on all + spezialization. All of that i woulda do but specizialiation. 45x15 is like 675 levels to grind, just to be maxed out again and be where i used to be before DR.. and what for? PvP's dead in this game.. the grind killed it.
This game totally took a turn from being casual/alt friendly to being casual/alt hostile. Since pvp is all about maximizing it also means maxing out levels is a requirement, especially since those specialization things they added aren't really minor advantages at all. So yea the devs are really killing their endgame off in here which is pretty similar to what the NGE did.
As a result of this change for the worse lots of people are of course leaving.. i've seen casual friends leave over this but also hardcore players that played 10h+ a day are actually moving away cause nobody feels like burning ridiculous amounts of time doing a boring mindless grind for nothing.
If they woulda want to save this game they should increase xp gain by a factor of 3 at the very least and make specialization points account-wide, so one has to grind those 60 extra levels up only once. And they should probably do something for pvp after that, some additional game types and maps.
What result might be is to be seen, I expect slow dwindling and remaining on life support to save face.
After all, SWG was dying longer than some games existed.
The Sony wide hack also really hammered the hell out of the SWG population in the last year of its life, before it most of the servers had decent populations and were doing ok. After that dead as hell even on Starsider and Euro-Farstar
Also this game has got nothing on the amount of damage the NGE did, it turned a good but flawed and functioning game into well nothing really. They removed so much and replaced it with nothing. There was not even a means to effectively level up for quite a long time after.
/sarcasm
I agree with this. I left WoW because of the "looking for X" must be geared and know fights"
well how the %$## are you suppose to get the gear and know the fight if you can't DO IT?
and please don't tell me Youtube. sure i can find every raid in every game, but there isn't a "don't do this" in any of them it's always "we are so cool we did the raid in 10 seconds bask in our uberness"
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That was concerning to hear, yes, especially when combined with the fact that major patches aren't even appearing on tribble before going live.
Free Tibet!
I have seen too many situations where the patch notes said "X is now doing Y" and yet X did not do Y. If one doesn't even test whether the intended changes are working correctly (and I'm not even speaking of checking for unexpected side effects), then there clearly is no QA tester at all.
I thought the amount of testers was -1. I guess I'm over estimating by 17 times.