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PUG, Why do people have a problem with it?
synthiasuicide
Member Posts: 458 Arc User
Ok, DR has changed the game.
An Uber DPS team has no prob, good teamwork, But I keep hearing people have problems completeing a pug.
Since I adapted to DR, I've had no problems completing PUG's. I fail a pug 1 out of 10 times.
WHY? I adapted.
People need to adjust their build. If you want to stroke your epeen on the DPS charts, then get good enough and only play with people on them charts. You'll be fine.
People like me, like to pug. If you do Sci, then use your CC properly. Don't use Tractor Beam Repulsors to spread all the Spehers into every direction you can. lol
I'll just take my current favorite toon, My fed Engineer. In the T5U JHDC, I do 20k+ yet fail 50% of the pugs in it. So DPS is there, the PUG is not.
I switched that toon to the Fed Eclipse OSS+SS single target Beam Array build. I do 15k+ and win 90% of the pugs in it.
So less DPS, yet I win more?
If your gonna pug, know what the mission requires and focus on that. Seen so many people Pop Generators too early, etc. So in ISA going Single Target makes a huge difference. So long as you know how the map works and what needs to be done. Because all your DPS is going exactly where it needs to. Not fluffing it up for some magic 1st place position by tagging everything on the map for the duration of the run.
By the devs upping the Health of each NPC, they hurt new player DPS hunters because they see builds and Videos posted of FAW setups and try to copy that.
And even people in my Fleet tell me, yeah, you'll do more DPS with CSV or FAW, etc. Yes, that's true, but going Single Target is more "Effective DPS" like you have in other MMO's. This games players has got AOE DPS on the brain.
If your sci, go into the pug with your CC ready to grab the Nanite spheres to make sure the pug can get it done. Don't use it on the Transformer to help take it out quicker. Save those shenanigans for when your in a group that you know can get it done without such flare.
Like the Wizards and the Galaxy videos. That was done because the team was there for it. Not something your gonna pull off in a pug reliably.
The games in a good place right now with advanced, at least for a pug. If theres a sci that understands CC, he can help make sure the map gets done. If theres someone like me doing Single Target, it can get done.
But, a bunch of people just FAW the map hoping for the best. It's your fault if it fails because you popped a Generator early without proper back up for CC and or Single target DPS.
I decided to take the Single Target role. and with my Engineer in a cruiser and my Tac in an escort, I win 90% of the pugs for that reason.
Don't blame the game because its too hard because all your doing is FAWing your time in the map. I'm guilty of that too, My Rom Tac in the Benthan is my highest DPS toon, Amazing in a DPS channel run, yet fail 90% of the Pugs I do in it, because that toon is also set up as a FAW Epeen stroking ship. Switched it to a DHC Ark'if and I win way more PUGS, but lower DPS.
Entered a couple PUGS and had only 4 people, yet still got the mission beat, WHY? because 2 of us were Single Target, a SCI, and a FAW spammer. Look at that, multi role can do it with several minutes left on the clock, while being undermanned. But, hard to accomplish if everyones in the same role IE:BFAW spammers.
Ok, Rant over. just don't understand the complaints when the game needed more Difficulty/challenge, and it comes and most of the community whines constantly.
An Uber DPS team has no prob, good teamwork, But I keep hearing people have problems completeing a pug.
Since I adapted to DR, I've had no problems completing PUG's. I fail a pug 1 out of 10 times.
WHY? I adapted.
People need to adjust their build. If you want to stroke your epeen on the DPS charts, then get good enough and only play with people on them charts. You'll be fine.
People like me, like to pug. If you do Sci, then use your CC properly. Don't use Tractor Beam Repulsors to spread all the Spehers into every direction you can. lol
I'll just take my current favorite toon, My fed Engineer. In the T5U JHDC, I do 20k+ yet fail 50% of the pugs in it. So DPS is there, the PUG is not.
I switched that toon to the Fed Eclipse OSS+SS single target Beam Array build. I do 15k+ and win 90% of the pugs in it.
So less DPS, yet I win more?
If your gonna pug, know what the mission requires and focus on that. Seen so many people Pop Generators too early, etc. So in ISA going Single Target makes a huge difference. So long as you know how the map works and what needs to be done. Because all your DPS is going exactly where it needs to. Not fluffing it up for some magic 1st place position by tagging everything on the map for the duration of the run.
By the devs upping the Health of each NPC, they hurt new player DPS hunters because they see builds and Videos posted of FAW setups and try to copy that.
And even people in my Fleet tell me, yeah, you'll do more DPS with CSV or FAW, etc. Yes, that's true, but going Single Target is more "Effective DPS" like you have in other MMO's. This games players has got AOE DPS on the brain.
If your sci, go into the pug with your CC ready to grab the Nanite spheres to make sure the pug can get it done. Don't use it on the Transformer to help take it out quicker. Save those shenanigans for when your in a group that you know can get it done without such flare.
Like the Wizards and the Galaxy videos. That was done because the team was there for it. Not something your gonna pull off in a pug reliably.
The games in a good place right now with advanced, at least for a pug. If theres a sci that understands CC, he can help make sure the map gets done. If theres someone like me doing Single Target, it can get done.
But, a bunch of people just FAW the map hoping for the best. It's your fault if it fails because you popped a Generator early without proper back up for CC and or Single target DPS.
I decided to take the Single Target role. and with my Engineer in a cruiser and my Tac in an escort, I win 90% of the pugs for that reason.
Don't blame the game because its too hard because all your doing is FAWing your time in the map. I'm guilty of that too, My Rom Tac in the Benthan is my highest DPS toon, Amazing in a DPS channel run, yet fail 90% of the Pugs I do in it, because that toon is also set up as a FAW Epeen stroking ship. Switched it to a DHC Ark'if and I win way more PUGS, but lower DPS.
Entered a couple PUGS and had only 4 people, yet still got the mission beat, WHY? because 2 of us were Single Target, a SCI, and a FAW spammer. Look at that, multi role can do it with several minutes left on the clock, while being undermanned. But, hard to accomplish if everyones in the same role IE:BFAW spammers.
Ok, Rant over. just don't understand the complaints when the game needed more Difficulty/challenge, and it comes and most of the community whines constantly.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by synthiasuicide on
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The problem is not the nature of pugs the problem is the fact that they put in a flawed mechanic forgetting that they have this q thing intended for well.. pugs lol.
The mechanic is in the wrong place they needed to build a new structure and seperate these things which require everyone to you know do the same thing lol. That being said as people get more and more gear its possible this autofail wont matter much and those lagging behind the learning curve can do the instances and not throw the match.
The issue remains though why would they introduce such an obvious griefing friendly mechanic int a system. Its so hit you in the face obviously exploitable that they should have taken it off the drawing board for that reason alone.
again Bad game design /shrug
Works on ground runs too. Bug Hunt is a good example, use team-helping skills no matter what class your captain is (team heals as a sci, turrets that heal as an eng, and team buffs/heals like rally cry and overwatch as a tac).
If you run a build that helps more than just your personal DPS you will be able to pug just fine.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
Thats the thing right there. And why I wish evey STF had a rank at the end like CCA thats not just a rank based on DPS. To encourage other roles. Instead we get Beamscorts because it helps that persons DPS. Which I still laugh at when I see it. And is the fault of the Develpoers by making escorts NOt the glass cannons they should be. An escort should never be able to survive the incoming damage from FAW aggro the entire map. Yet an escort can do it while almost standing still.
You will be lucky to finish 1 out of 10 ISA's by pugging.
When DR first dropped the pugs I played were a disaster. But the four I have done of in the past 3 days were all successful.
Could this be a sign that things they are a changin' and the pugging player-base is cluing in, or just dumb luck?
I'm an optimist, so...
*crosses fingers
Go pug Azure, Borg Disconnected, and Rhiho Station then report back to me.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Agreed. You play Borg Disconnected on Advanced and half the time people ignore freeing the Borg ships, focusing on killing everything they can, and then they wonder why they fail it.
All I do is Advanced. Is it actually possible to fail Normal? lol
Yes I finish 9 out of 10 ISA's pugging. Been doing it for the last 2 weeks without a hitch since I adapted and let go of the DPS race.
I dont consider those failures but I got one of those every 2 or 3 tries the reality is though there were a crew joining it just to grief.. I think most of them have gotten their fill of doing that so the problem is calming down it was interesting though it only happened during certain play hours so I avoid those hours now and have very few failures.
My first try at the new improved conduit when the hp was insane on the advanced level was a success (that was the first day of release) but it was hell lol and I didnt go back for awhile. I still can't be bothered they take too long for what they are so I dont do anything other then a couple of favourites. I have recently added the new battle of korfez to my list which is obviously failing (there is not you know normal to learn on or anything) but I consider this one an exception to the rule and go in knowing that its probably going to fail.
so i have been happily grinding fleetmarks again and levelling up my delta rep and collecting the power cells since the first day really. However over time this autofail condition probably wont matter as people get gear because they will just well steamroll it as before. :P
Since they decided to interrupt the mission with cut scenes, it would have been nice to have Jeri state when the Undine show up, "Maybe you can pit them against so you can free the Borg." Not everyone listens to their fellow players, but they might have listened to 7.
My experience with advanced PUGs, even now, is very mixed. Just yesterday had a player run off and destroy the generators on the opposite side of the group in ISA. Not enough CC to get it under control. I suppose we will see if people learn again, if they stick around, but I think the optionals that become mandatory in advanced could use some tweaking.
I just want to have teammates who know what they're doing. Having a competent pilot in a ship with sub-par gear will still yield good results. You don't hire people for a construction project by choosing random people off a street, that's stupid and they'll likely end up hurting themselves no matter how much help they get, it's no different for me personally and pugging.
that being said, when i'm really bored and feel like testing how much I can tank, i'll go pug an ISA
This does start to raise a design hurdle though.
Do the objectives favor certain classes or weapon types?
Are the actions needed clear and intuitive (don't stand in the fire)?
Are the objectives FUN?
I've always likened MMO dungeons to one part Hokey Pokey, one part Simon Says.
And sometimes an objective simply isn't a fun objective.
STO players have never really been trained to accept or deal with different encounter types that much aside from a few STF bosses. But even in games where you have a wealth of boss fight styles...
For example, WoW's Curator style boss fight where, if memory serves, you need a ranged caster tank with high HP. See if this is right...? Every time you damage the boss, you take damage. However, you have to have someone continue to keep damaging the boss because the boss has high regeneration and an enrage timer where everyone dies if the boss isn't dead by then. And then squishy DPS goes off and targets smaller enemies that heal the boss if they make contact with the boss. But there are many STYLES of boss fight. WoW has multiple bosses with that mechanic and when people encounter it, they know it. I think there are only a handful of mechanics so unique that we'd recognize them as a type and it's rare that they get repeated enough that players develop familiarity with boss types.
But even in more technical games than STO, sometimes the nature of a fight simply isn't fun. And from there, the only way I've seen to salvage it and get people to play is to nerf, to remove mechanics, or to invent brand new mechanics for the fight/encounter.
Many people will never adapt to anything but something has to feel intuitively fun for people to be willing to try to adapt to it.
LOL they do that on normal lol don't know how many times I freed all the ships on my side by myself and the others 2 and 2 don't seem to be freeing any lol. I get to a point and no more ship for me to free.
Joined January 2009
I'm not a PvP'er, nor am I even hardcore PvE'er. I've spent enough time reading different forums to know what the optimal set-up for my Scimmy is yet still have a Grav Torp, Grav Well, and Rift slotted.
At first I did it so I wouldn't be "that player" in ISA's who solos the instance while the rest of us chases their Full Impulse vapors (not that I was one of the players who even griped about it...no matter who does it, steamrolling an instance in 5 minutes means I can go on to do other things that much quicker). I just wanted everyone to have the chance to contribute. But then I stuck with that set-up because so many Leroy's In Space were bum-rushing then dying that I wanted those Sci powers as an insurance policy.
Now, my luck has gotten so bad with PUGS that I'm about to say "TRIBBLE it" and go all Fleet AP BFAW with sparkly DOFFS and embrace the "that player" mindset just to ensure that the objectives get met so that I and others on my team don't end up waiting an hour just to earn a 10 mark reward 5 minutes later due to one players ignorant behavior.
The only reason we succeeded each time was because either me or someone else also was doing something other than DPS'ing the whole map.
I realised that these missions now need at least one player on CC duty so why rely of someone else being that person, do it yourself.
With pre-DR PVE everyone knew you could pretty much finish an STF with massive DPS or hope that another player was at least partly paying enough attention to stop nanites getting at transformers or probes heading for the vortex.
Now in DR you must have at least one player willing to step up and be that person who is not concerned with out-DPS'ing all the other players and will use tactics to stop the mission failing.
It's like people have said, the advanced now require something more akin to a change in mindset; to understand the objectives and not just a race to get the biggest DPS or epeen in the match. Until players in general realise and accept this there will still be heavy failure rates.
LoL its very likely someone is causing it to fail on purpose. (broken mechanic is broken)
The issue is griefers - those who pug in for the sole purpose of ensuring failure for the team because that's how they get theoir rocks off. Now that advanced and elite STFs have an insta-fail it makes the jobs of these griefers even easier.
This is why I won't pug and why I haven't been in an STF since DR....
So that's my problem with pugs. I'm not going to waste my time playing with a bad team for almost no reward when the reward is pretty bad even when you complete the mission.
I think the single biggest problem is that some requirements in certain missions make it essentially impossible for a good player (or even two) to make-up for a less experienced player. Combine that with some of the bugs (had an Azure Advanced where 3 of 4 warbirds to rescue never spawned) and it gets psychologically unrewarding.
But its easier to whine about how unfair it is than to simply take 5minutes to think about your build.
You pratically can't fail ISA... it's almost impossible. A dead puppy in a average dps ship can succeed at ISA in a pug... simply because it takes almost zero skill... it's all DPS and no team work... get a high enough DPS to be able to cover for the abysmal lack of DPS the rest of your team is almost guarenteed to bring to the table, and you can practically solo ISA.
So bragging that your "adapted" to win ISA... isn't a big deal to me. It's like bragging your PUG'd a normal and survived.
Now go and PUG Borg Disconnected... pug it on advanced and win 9 out of 10 times. Then that'll be something to brag about.
sorry, but I love this statement so much...I really don't think the new failure conditions are a bad thing, just the opposite, there are just a few that need to be tweeked a bit. I really hope cryptic sticks to them as once they are fixed will make the stfs far more interesting
And yet many do fail, and several here have stated they gave up trying. So you would be wrong.
Your other statement is correct, get a high enough DPS and its no prob. Yet the message was directed at those newer or not yet set up to do that kinda DPS saying its to hard. If you do that kinda DPS then of course that would be your view. To a 8k-10k player, they can still beat a ISA Pug by not trying to FAW their way to victory. Sadly most see the high DPS builds and try to copy it with sub par equipment thinking it'll be close enough.
Can't copy-paste a high DPS build and expect to blast through it. Plus it wasn't bragging but see it as you may.
Did 2 more today and one was a cakewalk since 2 of the other players had 25k+, 1 had 1k.
And the other I was the top and a couple 8k, and 2 5k. still beat it. One player was a SCI with CC in that last one and there you go. That's my point.
You could be another BFAW on the team, or be something that helps more, a SCI with some CC, or a Single target toon, and make a difference in every match without all the fails.
Other maps, yeah they still need to be tweaked. have no problem with Khitomer, except never get the optional in a pug. Borg Disconnected is the opposite, I stopped trying to pug that one. But to those that say ISA is too hard, need to re-focus their build in a different way, at least until they get better toys down the line.
Most people want you to hold up your end. It seems harsh when it takes 2 people to do the job that 1 could do. Especially if say for an example.
5 players join up and have the following DPS and Durability.
Player A, 30k DPS Durability of 2
Player B, 25k DPS Durability of 2
Player C, 20k DPS Durability of 1
Player D, 10k DPS Durability of 10
Player E, 1k DPS Durability of 10.
So what you have here is say Khitomer Accord. Players A, B, C, and D can all handle probes with no problem. But Player E cant alone... he needs help. But A, B, C, and D can all do it alone. So one of them has to do it. But Player E isnt capable of killing the required enemies in the allowed time. In fact he is able to tank them, just not effectively damage them. So what you have here is Player A and B going Left, and Player C and D going right, with Player E simply just being there... Now they complete the mission with no problems, get all the optionals and finish with 3 minutes to spare.
But Player A, B, C, and D feel as if Player E was just kind of there... He didnt do enough to help the TEAM. In fact, by these numbers he didnt even need to shoot. So should Players A, B, C, and D do all the work for Player E simply because he cant? Or should they force him to play with others that he can fail with?
This is all hypothetical and very personal in direction. But I personaly do not like doing the work for others. AFK farmers are only slightly worse.
Just because somebody doesn't have a sandwich, doesn't mean nobody else has a sandwich.
Then consider most people in the pve queues consist of a lot of Player E's. Entire teams of Player E's all thinking the other 4 people on their team will be the one to carry them.