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Observations and Questions
protogoth
Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
This is not a rage thread; plenty of those exist already, so if you want to rage, go find one of those. This thread is also not a cry for boycotting or leaving; such things are pointless and unproductive. This thread is simply a few observations and questions.
The Observations:
With the proposed release of the Delta Rising Operations Pack:
Feds got 4 (and a 5th was added before the pack was released) T6 ships, 3 of them intel and each of those aimed at one of the three classes (Tac, Sci, Engi).
KDF got 2 T6 ships.
RRF got 2 T6 ships.
If this were not imbalanced enough, instead of working on adding T6 ships for RRF and KDF (which, honestly, should be retroactively added to the Delta Rising Operations Pack in order to produce appropriate balance), the next T6 ship to be released is yet another Fed ship.
At the same time, the long-promised revamped ESD club has been announced.
Meanwhile, the RRF still have no club or bar at all anywhere on New Romulus (or elsewhere, apart from our warbirds -- those which have an interior beyond bridge and ready room) -- nor an academy on New Romulus, nor a security officer at New Romulus Command, nor any sort of orbital defenses around New Romulus, nor ... well, the list goes on, and I've posted a rather lengthy list of things the RRF needs, along with several things the KDF needs as well, more than once or twice.
During the Summer event, there was no Romullan Power Board for the first two or three weeks of the event, and the Sand Monument which was supposed to be a "Romulan Sand Monument" featured a Klingon logo (I'm told this was the case for Fed-allied Romulans as well as KDF-allied Romulans, but I had no Fed-allied Romulans at the time, so I cannot verify that) for the first week or two. Romulans cannot even display fleet emblems on any Romulan ships (only on the ships of our allies). Our starbases and "embassies" (why do we need an "embassy" on our own homeworld? my fleets refer to these structures by the Rihan term "Khfi," which means "headquarters") and spires and dilithium mines have cosmetic projects to add more and more Fed or KDF aesthetic touches (and our starbases are already plastered with such motifs regardless of whether we do any of those cosmetic projects or no), with only the "embassies" featuring some Romulan aesthetics.
I am fairly sure that the old circular reasoning fallacy (which goes something like "KDF stuff doesn't give much return on investment, therefore we don't make more KDF stuff, therefore return on investment from KDF stuff is poor, therefore we won't make additional KDF stuff, therefore ...") -- in spite of it being a LOGICAL FALLACY and SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY -- is not applicable to RRF stuff and return on investment, since I myself have spent a rather ridiculous amount of money on Zen and LTS and LoR pack and DR pack over the past year and a half, and am aware of many other RRF players having spent rather large sums of cash as well. I would hazard a guess that a fair chunk of PWE's/Cryptic's income from STO over the past year and a half has come from players of RRF characters (and still more would flow in if there were more options for us in the C-store -- which also applies to KDF players -- one of the most-requested additions in the Romulan Gameplay forum has been additional ship interiors, yet we still have only the one). Yes, most of us have other characters as well, in Starfleet and/or the KDF, but in my own experience and by my own observations, most RRF players seem to be spending more time (and more money) on our RRF toons than those others, which have now become largely if not wholly alt toons (and/or storage toons).
The Questions:
So why the disrespect? Sheer volume of numbers of Fed players? Are all of them spending? Does their spending compare with the spending of RRF players in the past year and a half? I rather doubt the latter, and know the former to be impossible. More to the point, how is the player retention among those who play Fed toons primarily or exclusively and spend, compared to those who play RRF toons primarily or exclusively and spend?
The Point:
I realize the questions are unlikely to be answered in this thread or indeed anywhere publicly, but I'm asking them not to get answers; rather, I'm proposing that PWE and Cryptic ask themselves these questions and take appropriate steps to ensure that RRF players are shown the respect our dedication and spending should produce (and keep this in mind when considering the KDF as well).
The Observations:
With the proposed release of the Delta Rising Operations Pack:
Feds got 4 (and a 5th was added before the pack was released) T6 ships, 3 of them intel and each of those aimed at one of the three classes (Tac, Sci, Engi).
KDF got 2 T6 ships.
RRF got 2 T6 ships.
If this were not imbalanced enough, instead of working on adding T6 ships for RRF and KDF (which, honestly, should be retroactively added to the Delta Rising Operations Pack in order to produce appropriate balance), the next T6 ship to be released is yet another Fed ship.
At the same time, the long-promised revamped ESD club has been announced.
Meanwhile, the RRF still have no club or bar at all anywhere on New Romulus (or elsewhere, apart from our warbirds -- those which have an interior beyond bridge and ready room) -- nor an academy on New Romulus, nor a security officer at New Romulus Command, nor any sort of orbital defenses around New Romulus, nor ... well, the list goes on, and I've posted a rather lengthy list of things the RRF needs, along with several things the KDF needs as well, more than once or twice.
During the Summer event, there was no Romullan Power Board for the first two or three weeks of the event, and the Sand Monument which was supposed to be a "Romulan Sand Monument" featured a Klingon logo (I'm told this was the case for Fed-allied Romulans as well as KDF-allied Romulans, but I had no Fed-allied Romulans at the time, so I cannot verify that) for the first week or two. Romulans cannot even display fleet emblems on any Romulan ships (only on the ships of our allies). Our starbases and "embassies" (why do we need an "embassy" on our own homeworld? my fleets refer to these structures by the Rihan term "Khfi," which means "headquarters") and spires and dilithium mines have cosmetic projects to add more and more Fed or KDF aesthetic touches (and our starbases are already plastered with such motifs regardless of whether we do any of those cosmetic projects or no), with only the "embassies" featuring some Romulan aesthetics.
I am fairly sure that the old circular reasoning fallacy (which goes something like "KDF stuff doesn't give much return on investment, therefore we don't make more KDF stuff, therefore return on investment from KDF stuff is poor, therefore we won't make additional KDF stuff, therefore ...") -- in spite of it being a LOGICAL FALLACY and SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY -- is not applicable to RRF stuff and return on investment, since I myself have spent a rather ridiculous amount of money on Zen and LTS and LoR pack and DR pack over the past year and a half, and am aware of many other RRF players having spent rather large sums of cash as well. I would hazard a guess that a fair chunk of PWE's/Cryptic's income from STO over the past year and a half has come from players of RRF characters (and still more would flow in if there were more options for us in the C-store -- which also applies to KDF players -- one of the most-requested additions in the Romulan Gameplay forum has been additional ship interiors, yet we still have only the one). Yes, most of us have other characters as well, in Starfleet and/or the KDF, but in my own experience and by my own observations, most RRF players seem to be spending more time (and more money) on our RRF toons than those others, which have now become largely if not wholly alt toons (and/or storage toons).
The Questions:
So why the disrespect? Sheer volume of numbers of Fed players? Are all of them spending? Does their spending compare with the spending of RRF players in the past year and a half? I rather doubt the latter, and know the former to be impossible. More to the point, how is the player retention among those who play Fed toons primarily or exclusively and spend, compared to those who play RRF toons primarily or exclusively and spend?
The Point:
I realize the questions are unlikely to be answered in this thread or indeed anywhere publicly, but I'm asking them not to get answers; rather, I'm proposing that PWE and Cryptic ask themselves these questions and take appropriate steps to ensure that RRF players are shown the respect our dedication and spending should produce (and keep this in mind when considering the KDF as well).
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
I do believe it comes down to marketing and return on investments. As much as I would wish otherwise, it would appear that despite people like you who do spend large amounts on their Romulan characters, that the amount of money made from Federation side is just too great to pass up.
I don't think it is an intentional disrespect to the faction as much as it is typical corporate greed trying to squeeze as much out of the playerbase as they can to sustain the game, and divert a portion of that to the Romulan and KDF factions whenever they get the chance.
This is disappointing to me as well, because I do love my romulan character. And I would love nothing more than to see equal treatment to the KDF and Romulan Republic.
Unfortunately, the reality is 'we' are in the same boat as the KDF in terms of developer attention. I wanted to be optimistic and believe otherwise (I was hoping we would see Romulan versions of the KHG/MACO Armor, for instance), but that optimism has been replaced with vague disappointment.
The Romulans still have many strengths going for them, and I still enjoy playing greenside very much. I don't believe your requests are unreasonable, but I think you know exactly why the Romulan faction seems neglected.
It's just an uncomfortable and inconvenient truth to accept. Capitalist greed overtakes artistic intention.
I'm not saying the intention is disrespect; I'm saying that's how the results are being perceived by players of RRF and KDF characters.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9005333
My response:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=20768671#post20768671
2. I know the members of the forum will disagree, but the very large percentage play federation. I would tend to think those players like myself who have all three factions, still have feds as the primary toon.
3. I don't have access to the data, but it's my impression that C-store sales for Rom and KFD ships is rather lacking with the exception of the Scimitar, and not very profitable if at all.
On the other hand, what percentage of the active characters are Federation, vs Romulan and Klingon? It could be the Cryptic is just addressing the demands of playing STO population, and not some unrealistic sense of balance between factions... (The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...) For someone who just has Federation characters, additional Klingon and Romulan ships are just a waste of time...
This is inaccurate. And just very poorly structured.
You statement appears to conclude that ROI on KDF 'stuff' is due to the fact that there isn't much of it.
And you've given no arguments to support that. What are we looking at then?
1. If stuff doesn't give much return on investment, don't make more of it.
2. KDF stuff doesn't give much return on investment.
Then...
3. Don't make more KDF stuff.
A very reasonable course of action and I'm not seeing the fallacy.
I don't see where anyone that matters (PWE) has identified not creating enough KDF stuff as the causation for KDF stuff not having a good ROI.
I think THAT is a charge being made by others.
I'm not sure where that leaves the rest of your post.
Sadly, however, the side factions will NEVER get the love the Feds receive. Why? Because Star Trek has never been presented from a point of view other than from the UFP. Yes, there was the KLINGONS PC game (which I loved) but really, it has always been and shall forever be a Fed Fandom piece.
Klingons, Romulans, et al, are merely the side characters. Well get a few toys and trinkets thrown our way but dont expect equality.
I'm quite familiar with Modus Ponens. That's not where the fallacy is, because Modus Ponens is in fact a correct inference form. The fallacy lies in the assumption involved in the sufficient condition in the conditional statement which is the first premise -- and how that is applied.
The assumption is "K stuff doesn't give much RoI." Here's how the argument should go, eschewing the more limited Syllogistic Logic in favor of the more useful Predicate Logic (keeping in mind that it has not been that long ago that all STO players were required to start as Fed players and had to level up before being allowed to make a KDF toon):
Therefore:
("For any x, if x is F, then x is P") and ("For any x, if x is K, then K is not-P")
This is an argument free of fallacy. So where is the fallacy? In the incorrect argument, which includes all of the above, but also includes two unstated premises:
The fallacious argument in its simplest form is:
- "For any x, if x is S, then x is P"
- "For any x, if x is P, then x is W"
"Therefore, for any x, if x is W, then x is S"The circle in this should be evident, as should be the formal fallacy of Affirming the Consequent.
Now tack on the application of this fallacious argument and you see the results:
- "For any x, if x is K, then x is not-S"
- "For any x, if x is K, then x is not-P"
"Therefore, for any x, if x is K, then x is not-W"Absolutely fallacious.
circle 1 --- factions not profitable, do not make more stuff, no new stuff, nothing is bought, faction is not profitable.
circle 2 is the harder one to deal with ... fewer players mean fewer fleets that are complete. Few complete fleets mean less fleet modules sold, less fleet ships sold, etc. The inability to grind out a starbase due to the hefty requirements vs small fleets (kdf has a billion small fleets) means no one needs ship modules as they can't buy anything anyway.... which is not productive to selling ship modules nor cstore ships. I for one need about 20 modules but not until our base is t5 and its not even 4 yet...
Wherever you jump in on that, it is both true that the faction is not as profitable so making more stuff is less profitable ... and it is also true that not making stuff is keeping the profits down. If you make nothing, then complain that you can't sell your noting, that is illogical. If you make stuff and it does not sell, that is another story.
The thing is, all the KDF an Rom stuff DOES sell. I see tons of kdf store ships. The mogh was loved. The karfi is loved. Strangely, people even bought the new tank t6 ship ... far more than expected IMHO, Ive seen a lot of them (it has a distinctive look). Ive seen a lot of roms that tire of the scimitar's slow turning go for the new escort and intel skills. The kdf raptor is very nice and a lot of buyers there too.
Kdf players esp, and to a lesser extent roms, are USED to not having as much. Our shipyards combined have fewer total ships than the feds by a wide margin. We are not asking for much. Take an existing ship model, repaint it and grab the hull from one and the wings from another, slap some stats on it, and put it in the store. We will buy it if its any good.