as for those that say, "there is no defense" I say work the problem, find the solution
you over came the doffs that everyone cried about would wreck the game, you over came the fleet ships everyone said would destroy pvp cues of the haves and the have nots, you over came the LoR and the crys of the cues will die off cause only vape ships will ever win.. this is just another hurdle
My problem with the whole thing is that they have made it so that you need to either become part of the cheeze, or create builds spesificly made to counter the cheeze, and with this it limits the diversity that made this game fun for me.
Atm i see no no point in gathering resources, i already have all the items and ships i would want to make those builds.. but they where not fun to fly... I mean there was no timing or practice needed to just tear through most defences... you would just need to buff up and hit surgical strikes 3 most of the time your target is dead.. unless they counter your cheeze with more cheeze like fbp. And if they managed to survive your assault, you could easily finish them off with something else or wait for a new surgical strike to get ready.
Also being a romulan kdf, to be able to do this i needed the faeth... and personally evern since i flew a bugship for like over a year and got *done* with escorts... and that the other intel ship for romulans only had a lieutenant intel boff slot... basicly ment that i had to fly a ship that i did not like to fly to be able to take part of the cheeze..so atm there are no ways for me to get to experiment with builds with the new added mechanics unless i create a new char... and that just is not that tempting..
It might be kinda arrogant for me to say.... but when i invest ALOT of time and resources to setup a build, which usually also takes alot of time to learn how to use properly... it kinda ticks me the hell off when i encounter someone that flies some t6 intel ship doing half of what the potential dmg surgical strike 3 can do.. most of the time just looks like they have chosen skills/items randomly and they end up being as deadly as a vaper but flies a cruiser..
This is why i never liked pvp in games like WoW, because you had to setup a talent tree that fit the current meta, and there was not many variations you could use, and if you did try to create your own variations, you where never a match for those that used the "correct" talents.... And now im very sorry to say... STO gives me the same feeling... i mean in this game you could have so much fun experimenting and learning new ways of setting up ships.. and new tactics and create siomething unique.. that *worked*....It used to require knowledge, skill and experience to be able to get the "edge", now you just need a t6 intel ship and slot surgical strike 3, and you set. And it does not require that much experience and skill to be able to be deadly in pvp with that...
With all the flaws that STO had in PVP, it always had the diversity.. now its almost gone...
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
DR was only the final nail in the coffin. PvP has been dead for at least six months. Who can keep up with the power leap without grinding so much there is no time to PvP?
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
My problem with the whole thing is that they have made it so that you need to either become part of the cheeze, or create builds spesificly made to counter the cheeze, and with this it limits the diversity that made this game fun for me.
I apologize for stopping there, but I've seen this brought up in a few places - and - I'm left to wonder how it is any different than any previous changes to the meta? X becomes the thing, you build for X or to counter X. It has happened time and time again.
I mean, sure, one could make the argument that a bunch of this TRIBBLE is massively broken compared to previous changes...but that would the "this TRIBBLE is massively broken" argument and not the having to adapt argument. Cause time after time, it's what folks do - they adapt. Hell, from match to match folks adapt - hitting up Ker'rat, something is off and it gets changed.
I was dorking around in Ker'rat testing some stuff...and...meh, I ended up feeling dirty. Would have been one thing if the Feds were outnumbered, and I might have been able to excuse some of it as an equalizer against overwhelming odds...but with it being 8+ vs. 2-3, it just felt dirty and I left.
I like being annoying, it's kind of been my thing - whether as an Eng in a Beam Chel Grett, running a Sci BoP (Sci Cap & 4x Sci BOFFs), or when I still had Willard and bouncing around going wheeee...but when I can grab a couple of Intel BOFF abilities, a Trait, and a single weapon...meh, there's no fun in that. There's no back and forth - there's no dance to it. It's just a case of seeing who starts...and even there, the guy starting leaves himself wide open so he'll not get to finish.
X drops out on A. B pegs X, X can't finish off A. Before B can finish off X, Y pegs B. On and on, and just when it looks like somebody might finish off somebody - the CDs have reset and it starts over again. Unless it's Fed vs. KDF, in which case the KDF simply don't have Reciprocity and that's that...that was such a complete (insert Forum TOS violation rant here)...
It's one thing, imho, for the meta to change as it has - and I don't get the argument against that; but it's another thing - again, imho - just how jacked up so much of the new TRIBBLE is...
Sorry for that wee rant there...it's just kind of depressing and frustrating.
DR was only the final nail in the coffin. PvP has been dead for at least six months. Who can keep up with the power leap without grinding so much there is no time to PvP?
But, but, but...Geko was addressing concerns with power creep with Delta Rising. Ugh, I think I broke something laughing at that one...meh.
I apologize for stopping there, but I've seen this brought up in a few places - and - I'm left to wonder how it is any different than any previous changes to the meta?
The difference is that for any of the other updates that people have had to adapt to in the last couple of years, the new item/skill/doff always demanded that you had the right setup and had to sacrifice something to be able to make it work well. And also alot of the time you needed to practice and learn how to fly your build.
Even with the particle manipulator, which i still think should be looked into, you would have to sacrifice console-slots to be able to get a high enough value in particle generators to be able to make full benefit of the trait, meaning you would do less dmg and or be less tanky..And the same goes for almost everything else that has added to the powercreep the last couple of years... you had to make a choice i how you wanted your build to be.
in DR you could setup a t6 intel ship that has surgical strike 3 available and make it a very decent tank, and if you are a tactical officer, you could easily equip one copy of surgical strike 3, and to top it off you could get a viral torp + some other intel stuff without having to sacrifice alot and with that you get to have cake.. and eat it too, with a sidedish with chocolatechip-cookie strawberry icecream and a large coke + a pie for desert....... and i guess it would feel great while eating it (if you like that sort of thing), but afterwards atleast i would feel dirty (and maybe abit nauseous).
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
I apologize for stopping there, but I've seen this brought up in a few places - and - I'm left to wonder how it is any different than any previous changes to the meta? X becomes the thing, you build for X or to counter X. It has happened time and time again.
I mean, sure, one could make the argument that a bunch of this TRIBBLE is massively broken compared to previous changes...but that would the "this TRIBBLE is massively broken" argument and not the having to adapt argument. Cause time after time, it's what folks do - they adapt. Hell, from match to match folks adapt - hitting up Ker'rat, something is off and it gets changed.
I was dorking around in Ker'rat testing some stuff...and...meh, I ended up feeling dirty. Would have been one thing if the Feds were outnumbered, and I might have been able to excuse some of it as an equalizer against overwhelming odds...but with it being 8+ vs. 2-3, it just felt dirty and I left.
I like being annoying, it's kind of been my thing - whether as an Eng in a Beam Chel Grett, running a Sci BoP (Sci Cap & 4x Sci BOFFs), or when I still had Willard and bouncing around going wheeee...but when I can grab a couple of Intel BOFF abilities, a Trait, and a single weapon...meh, there's no fun in that. There's no back and forth - there's no dance to it. It's just a case of seeing who starts...and even there, the guy starting leaves himself wide open so he'll not get to finish.
X drops out on A. B pegs X, X can't finish off A. Before B can finish off X, Y pegs B. On and on, and just when it looks like somebody might finish off somebody - the CDs have reset and it starts over again. Unless it's Fed vs. KDF, in which case the KDF simply don't have Reciprocity and that's that...that was such a complete (insert Forum TOS violation rant here)...
It's one thing, imho, for the meta to change as it has - and I don't get the argument against that; but it's another thing - again, imho - just how jacked up so much of the new TRIBBLE is...
Sorry for that wee rant there...it's just kind of depressing and frustrating.
But, but, but...Geko was addressing concerns with power creep with Delta Rising. Ugh, I think I broke something laughing at that one...meh.
It's only been a matter of degree w/the latest patch and I'm not convinced that degree is any different than Rommy rollout to pre Rommy rollout and that was Fleet Gear to Pre Fleet Gear other than the time gated nature of things like specialization. Though arguably that time gated lag has gone up the same rate, the difference is that it's more accumulative.
As for cheese vs cheese, I always found that to be subjective in most cases and that shark was jumped years ago as well.
I'm confused about how people don't come to expect it after playing the game for 6 months (and apparently years for others).
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
It's only been a matter of degree w/the latest patch and I'm not convinced that degree is any different than Rommy rollout to pre Rommy rollout and that was Fleet Gear to Pre Fleet Gear other than the time gated nature of things like specialization. Though arguably that time gated lag has gone up the same rate, the difference is that it's more accumulative.
As for cheese vs cheese, I always found that to be subjective in most cases and that shark was jumped years ago as well.
I'm confused about how people don't come to expect it after playing the game for 6 months (and apparently years for others).
There's always complaints, but a lot of those are usually just folks that don't want to change. There's a bunch of stuff off with DR, where it doesn't matter if you do want to change...it's just broken. Gets into those things of will it be wasted time to change just to have them fix it...cause the upgrade cost (overall, time, EC, Dil) is much higher with DR than previous changes.
It's like I want them to fix the new 3pc Lobi set bonus...because I want to use what it actually does. So I keep using it, but there's no doubt that I'm getting used to the speed and it's subverting me...do I really want them to fix it? It's so damn slow without it...Cryptic's corrupting me, man - they're corrupting me! Fix the 3pc now, save my soul!
Yeah, it's the End of an Era for STO PvP... right now i have converted to Guild Wars 2 PvP since their dev's listen and knows what their player base wants in PvP... can't say the same for Captain Geko & his Goons because in the end, Cryptic will always say ''Sorry guys, Wait for PvP updates NEXT season''...
So as long Cryptic keeps neglecting PvP, i will never give Cryptic money not even a cent... i've already stop PvPing in STO b4 DR was released since the Dev's don't want to nothing for it. but i will keep my main toon PvP ready in the event that Cryptic do dicides to update STO PvP... which is never with Captain Geko still at helm.
I might drop by Ker'rat once in awhile... but nothing else.
There's always complaints, but a lot of those are usually just folks that don't want to change. There's a bunch of stuff off with DR, where it doesn't matter if you do want to change...it's just broken. Gets into those things of will it be wasted time to change just to have them fix it...cause the upgrade cost (overall, time, EC, Dil) is much higher with DR than previous changes.
It's like I want them to fix the new 3pc Lobi set bonus...because I want to use what it actually does. So I keep using it, but there's no doubt that I'm getting used to the speed and it's subverting me...do I really want them to fix it? It's so damn slow without it...Cryptic's corrupting me, man - they're corrupting me! Fix the 3pc now, save my soul!
That's been a cop out imo. Let's start when F2P started. There was an influx of C-store +1 ships and Unique consoles and introduction of set grinding, and doff collecting. This introduced time gated grinding, and jacked up the pay for power which had actually been introduced earlier. Against like skilled players doffs and set gear was required, ship upgrades/consoles also had their issues.
The next influx was Fleet system. This introduced time gating to build fleet and/or build fleet credits. Fleet shields, ships, weapons (for kdf anyway) along w/Lotto mix was the next influx. Vold bug reshowed itself around this time for extra ... .
Next came LoR, another rep, lots of ships (especially on KDF side) obsoleted. So, now a new toon to grind (w/Boffs et al).
Now, T6 w/specialization et al grinding.
Each time significant builds/toons were obsoleted at the expense of more time and/or $.
I supposed not wanting to invest $/time in a crappy business model as a customer is a type of change, but really it's well beyond the played out "adapt or die" mantra.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
TBH, the proof is in the pudding. Go look at kerrat and the pvp queues. Pre-DR, they were packed and full. non stop pvp queues popping, 3 or 4 instances of kerrat going.
Now.... sometimes kerrat is 100% empty. sometimes it's 5-6 players, all feds 1 klink....
the PVP queues are just 0, almost all the time except maybe peak hours, maybe 1 or 2 rounds will pop but thats it.
It's just dead. Logging in after 8 or 9pm pst it's nearly 100% dead, no a single soul doing pvp.
This is a MMO folks..... how many accounts and players does STO have? 200K? 300K....
TBH, the proof is in the pudding. Go look at kerrat and the pvp queues. Pre-DR, they were packed and full. non stop pvp queues popping, 3 or 4 instances of kerrat going.
Now.... sometimes kerrat is 100% empty. sometimes it's 5-6 players, all feds 1 klink....
the PVP queues are just 0, almost all the time except maybe peak hours, maybe 1 or 2 rounds will pop but thats it.
It's just dead. Logging in after 8 or 9pm pst it's nearly 100% dead, no a single soul doing pvp.
This is a MMO folks..... how many accounts and players does STO have? 200K? 300K....
0 pvp going on??? WHAT?!
For what its worth, most PvE queues are just as dead. try anything not current and you may end up waiting all day.
Jonie was a good fellow, even if he's KDF.
(He was always nice even if he killed me)
I wasn't a regular in Ker'rat, but I did like going by a few times a week.
As soon as I realized the grind needed to get ny gear into fighting shape, I stopped visiting Ker'rat, I'd bet a good number of pvp'ers are just busy upgrading their ships for combat.
I know I won't set a nacelle into Ker'rat until I'm battle ready.
At this rate ill need a few months before I can even think about it. I figure some are doing the same. But I can also see DR, turning a lot of semi regulars off pvp.
Jonie was a good fellow, even if he's KDF.
(He was always nice even if he killed me)
I wasn't a regular in Ker'rat, but I did like going by a few times a week.
As soon as I realized the grind needed to get ny gear into fighting shape, I stopped visiting Ker'rat, I'd bet a good number of pvp'ers are just busy upgrading their ships for combat.
I know I won't set a nacelle into Ker'rat until I'm battle ready.
At this rate ill need a few months before I can even think about it. I figure some are doing the same. But I can also see DR, turning a lot of semi regulars off pvp.
I think the real question is "how many PvPers will actually finish upgrading their ships?". Even a lot of PvErs just drop it midway through upgrading because its just so much to do.
Comments
My problem with the whole thing is that they have made it so that you need to either become part of the cheeze, or create builds spesificly made to counter the cheeze, and with this it limits the diversity that made this game fun for me.
Atm i see no no point in gathering resources, i already have all the items and ships i would want to make those builds.. but they where not fun to fly... I mean there was no timing or practice needed to just tear through most defences... you would just need to buff up and hit surgical strikes 3 most of the time your target is dead.. unless they counter your cheeze with more cheeze like fbp. And if they managed to survive your assault, you could easily finish them off with something else or wait for a new surgical strike to get ready.
Also being a romulan kdf, to be able to do this i needed the faeth... and personally evern since i flew a bugship for like over a year and got *done* with escorts... and that the other intel ship for romulans only had a lieutenant intel boff slot... basicly ment that i had to fly a ship that i did not like to fly to be able to take part of the cheeze..so atm there are no ways for me to get to experiment with builds with the new added mechanics unless i create a new char... and that just is not that tempting..
It might be kinda arrogant for me to say.... but when i invest ALOT of time and resources to setup a build, which usually also takes alot of time to learn how to use properly... it kinda ticks me the hell off when i encounter someone that flies some t6 intel ship doing half of what the potential dmg surgical strike 3 can do.. most of the time just looks like they have chosen skills/items randomly and they end up being as deadly as a vaper but flies a cruiser..
This is why i never liked pvp in games like WoW, because you had to setup a talent tree that fit the current meta, and there was not many variations you could use, and if you did try to create your own variations, you where never a match for those that used the "correct" talents.... And now im very sorry to say... STO gives me the same feeling... i mean in this game you could have so much fun experimenting and learning new ways of setting up ships.. and new tactics and create siomething unique.. that *worked*....It used to require knowledge, skill and experience to be able to get the "edge", now you just need a t6 intel ship and slot surgical strike 3, and you set. And it does not require that much experience and skill to be able to be deadly in pvp with that...
With all the flaws that STO had in PVP, it always had the diversity.. now its almost gone...
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
I apologize for stopping there, but I've seen this brought up in a few places - and - I'm left to wonder how it is any different than any previous changes to the meta? X becomes the thing, you build for X or to counter X. It has happened time and time again.
I mean, sure, one could make the argument that a bunch of this TRIBBLE is massively broken compared to previous changes...but that would the "this TRIBBLE is massively broken" argument and not the having to adapt argument. Cause time after time, it's what folks do - they adapt. Hell, from match to match folks adapt - hitting up Ker'rat, something is off and it gets changed.
I was dorking around in Ker'rat testing some stuff...and...meh, I ended up feeling dirty. Would have been one thing if the Feds were outnumbered, and I might have been able to excuse some of it as an equalizer against overwhelming odds...but with it being 8+ vs. 2-3, it just felt dirty and I left.
I like being annoying, it's kind of been my thing - whether as an Eng in a Beam Chel Grett, running a Sci BoP (Sci Cap & 4x Sci BOFFs), or when I still had Willard and bouncing around going wheeee...but when I can grab a couple of Intel BOFF abilities, a Trait, and a single weapon...meh, there's no fun in that. There's no back and forth - there's no dance to it. It's just a case of seeing who starts...and even there, the guy starting leaves himself wide open so he'll not get to finish.
X drops out on A. B pegs X, X can't finish off A. Before B can finish off X, Y pegs B. On and on, and just when it looks like somebody might finish off somebody - the CDs have reset and it starts over again. Unless it's Fed vs. KDF, in which case the KDF simply don't have Reciprocity and that's that...that was such a complete (insert Forum TOS violation rant here)...
It's one thing, imho, for the meta to change as it has - and I don't get the argument against that; but it's another thing - again, imho - just how jacked up so much of the new TRIBBLE is...
Sorry for that wee rant there...it's just kind of depressing and frustrating.
But, but, but...Geko was addressing concerns with power creep with Delta Rising. Ugh, I think I broke something laughing at that one...meh.
The difference is that for any of the other updates that people have had to adapt to in the last couple of years, the new item/skill/doff always demanded that you had the right setup and had to sacrifice something to be able to make it work well. And also alot of the time you needed to practice and learn how to fly your build.
Even with the particle manipulator, which i still think should be looked into, you would have to sacrifice console-slots to be able to get a high enough value in particle generators to be able to make full benefit of the trait, meaning you would do less dmg and or be less tanky..And the same goes for almost everything else that has added to the powercreep the last couple of years... you had to make a choice i how you wanted your build to be.
in DR you could setup a t6 intel ship that has surgical strike 3 available and make it a very decent tank, and if you are a tactical officer, you could easily equip one copy of surgical strike 3, and to top it off you could get a viral torp + some other intel stuff without having to sacrifice alot and with that you get to have cake.. and eat it too, with a sidedish with chocolatechip-cookie strawberry icecream and a large coke + a pie for desert....... and i guess it would feel great while eating it (if you like that sort of thing), but afterwards atleast i would feel dirty (and maybe abit nauseous).
It's only been a matter of degree w/the latest patch and I'm not convinced that degree is any different than Rommy rollout to pre Rommy rollout and that was Fleet Gear to Pre Fleet Gear other than the time gated nature of things like specialization. Though arguably that time gated lag has gone up the same rate, the difference is that it's more accumulative.
As for cheese vs cheese, I always found that to be subjective in most cases and that shark was jumped years ago as well.
I'm confused about how people don't come to expect it after playing the game for 6 months (and apparently years for others).
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
There's always complaints, but a lot of those are usually just folks that don't want to change. There's a bunch of stuff off with DR, where it doesn't matter if you do want to change...it's just broken. Gets into those things of will it be wasted time to change just to have them fix it...cause the upgrade cost (overall, time, EC, Dil) is much higher with DR than previous changes.
It's like I want them to fix the new 3pc Lobi set bonus...because I want to use what it actually does. So I keep using it, but there's no doubt that I'm getting used to the speed and it's subverting me...do I really want them to fix it? It's so damn slow without it...Cryptic's corrupting me, man - they're corrupting me! Fix the 3pc now, save my soul!
So as long Cryptic keeps neglecting PvP, i will never give Cryptic money not even a cent... i've already stop PvPing in STO b4 DR was released since the Dev's don't want to nothing for it. but i will keep my main toon PvP ready in the event that Cryptic do dicides to update STO PvP... which is never with Captain Geko still at helm.
I might drop by Ker'rat once in awhile... but nothing else.
That's been a cop out imo. Let's start when F2P started. There was an influx of C-store +1 ships and Unique consoles and introduction of set grinding, and doff collecting. This introduced time gated grinding, and jacked up the pay for power which had actually been introduced earlier. Against like skilled players doffs and set gear was required, ship upgrades/consoles also had their issues.
The next influx was Fleet system. This introduced time gating to build fleet and/or build fleet credits. Fleet shields, ships, weapons (for kdf anyway) along w/Lotto mix was the next influx. Vold bug reshowed itself around this time for extra ... .
Next came LoR, another rep, lots of ships (especially on KDF side) obsoleted. So, now a new toon to grind (w/Boffs et al).
Now, T6 w/specialization et al grinding.
Each time significant builds/toons were obsoleted at the expense of more time and/or $.
I supposed not wanting to invest $/time in a crappy business model as a customer is a type of change, but really it's well beyond the played out "adapt or die" mantra.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Now.... sometimes kerrat is 100% empty. sometimes it's 5-6 players, all feds 1 klink....
the PVP queues are just 0, almost all the time except maybe peak hours, maybe 1 or 2 rounds will pop but thats it.
It's just dead. Logging in after 8 or 9pm pst it's nearly 100% dead, no a single soul doing pvp.
This is a MMO folks..... how many accounts and players does STO have? 200K? 300K....
0 pvp going on??? WHAT?!
For what its worth, most PvE queues are just as dead. try anything not current and you may end up waiting all day.
(He was always nice even if he killed me)
I wasn't a regular in Ker'rat, but I did like going by a few times a week.
As soon as I realized the grind needed to get ny gear into fighting shape, I stopped visiting Ker'rat, I'd bet a good number of pvp'ers are just busy upgrading their ships for combat.
I know I won't set a nacelle into Ker'rat until I'm battle ready.
At this rate ill need a few months before I can even think about it. I figure some are doing the same. But I can also see DR, turning a lot of semi regulars off pvp.
I think the real question is "how many PvPers will actually finish upgrading their ships?". Even a lot of PvErs just drop it midway through upgrading because its just so much to do.
eh, almost this lol