The easiest solution for everyone is to leave and not support korean grinders.
Most western publishers have games like this on a "red" list. As in, warning this game is designed to milk you. There are TONS of F2P games that do it right, where each purchase is FUN and REWARDING, not NECESARY and endless.
The community has become even more divided by Cryptics handling of recent changes, to the point where everyone is attacking each other. Basically this game is on its way out.
WHICH WE SHOULD BE REJOICING. It makes way for a competant game company (of which there are many) to get a hold of this IP and do it RIGHT.
As long the playerbase here keeps accepting the conversion to korean grinder, and even paying for it, the worse it will get until its finally shut down, wasting months or even years that a good version could have been in development.
Sometimes you just gotta know when the horse has been broken, and need to be put down.
Gamers are some of the most childish and hateful people on the planet.
I have seen this on dozens of forums and its always the same its never...
"im not happy with this change and here is why" it is this...
" im not happy with this, you developers are idiots, what were you thinking you should be fired" etc.
How can we expect them to interact with us when all we do is behave like children.
Now i am not defending Cryptic nor do i think they are blameless, but if you want them or any developers of a game to continue to interact with there Fanbase try talking to them like human beings and not like trash.
It is usually both although it seems like if a quarter of half the complaints do the second one, people who do the first one get lumped in with them.
I am saying that the devs should not be using a charity to shame players. And I would WELCOME a two way conversation, on or off the record, on here, on Facebook, on the phone, or in this thread. I'm not being unreasonable or getting in the way of a dialogue.
Where was this said? Sorry I just find it hard to believe they'd sink that low, even if my expectations aren't that great anyway....
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I'm speaking as an observer, now, who's spent a lot of time on the forums... probably more time than I've spent playing the actual game.
And remember I'm a player, not an employee. I am a customer who ends up in the odd position of having to remember that I am kinda-sorta representing a public face of the company I'm a customer of and enforcing their policies on forum use.
Dan Stahl spent a lot of time communicating with players via the forums when he was EP. At first, we forumites were ecstatic that the Devs were spending so much time talking to us and letting us in on where they wanted to go.
Then it turned ugly. Words were twisted, misunderstood, blown out of proportion. I'm not saying that Cryptic didn't make mistakes. They forgot, again, that the forums are really social media and they need to treat it like a PR nightmare waiting to happen -- as many other companies using social media have discovered to their chagrin. They have to watch what they say because they now know that it can come back to bite them hard, even when their intentions are good.
And I believe their intentions are basically good, based on my observations. Execution sometimes needs a little work, though, and there are too many people looking for excuses to lash out at Cryptic yet again based on past disappointments.
Those nerd-rage disasters taken as a whole forever changed the nature of communications between Cryptic and us, and we as a community of players and devs have never fully recovered in my opinion. Until we can get past that, it's going to be hard to avoid more rage fests and bad communication.
All of the toxic influences have to go if things are going to improve. Either the attitudes need to change, or the people themselves need to not be on the forums at all. And I'm not saying who I mean by that. I want to be a positive force for change, but the job is too big for me or even ten of me. It's got to be a majority.
When I suggest that people play or leave, I'm not telling people to take a hike. I'm saying that people need to seriously consider whether playing an MMO, Star Trek or not, really fits their personalities. Toxic venting on the forums doesn't really help anybody. If people really want the game to succeed, the way many insist that they do, then they'll need to stop flaming and perpetuating the negative stereotype of a forum rager.
The more players try to engage patiently with the Devs, the more benefits we will reap. We need players to keep challenging them to improve the game, but there needs to be a measure of respect on both sides.
I never heard the "moron" comment that some of you are reporting. That's a breakdown in customer relations that needs to be solved. Even when customers are being abusive jerks, coming out and saying it is a bad idea. I don't really want to know the details, or who said it, but I can say that I would have lost some respect for that individual for saying it publicly.
Just like I have lost respect for some of the players who post here who consistently choose to break the rules and to post abusively or to stir things up in a negative way. Those guys are a big part of the problem and I can't say I have any sympathy for them.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I've worked in customer service...trust me, I get what it is like working at a store that not only had difficult customers but was actually known for having the worst in the district.
That said, the only way I ever managed to make any sort of dent in that dynamic was through my own conduct towards the customers and the example and influence I exerted on my team to try to get them signed on to a better way of handling the customers...and yes, the jerks. Even when you know very well that someone is a flaming jerk, exactly as you say, the last thing you want to do is to be the one to snap because once that happens you lose all your high ground. And there was really no other way to go about it: I could not control others' words or attitudes, save for occasions when someone was so abusive that I had to eject someone from the store because I feared for the safety of my team and other customers.
At least personally I am trying to help with what I am saying. Even with deciding against participation in the Zen economy, I'm not getting any sort of kick out of watching things apart or wanting in any way to fan the flames. If there were any way I could participate in any sort of event to help have a two-way dialogue, I would be willing. My mind is not so closed that I can't have a conversation and listen, and not jump down someone's throat and rage at them as my method of expressing a disagreement.
I know by observation I am far from the only one being rational here *even in our real dissatisfaction*. There are many others. I don't want to see that fact get buried. :-/
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I've worked in customer service...trust me, I get what it is like working at a store that not only had difficult customers but was actually known for having the worst in the district.
I have done successfully from waiting on, to reception work, to management, etc.
Honestly you help people the best you can,you use kid gloves when people and do try to help when something is honestly wrong, but if someone is saying you're entire business needs to go, as some people are here for some odd reason they think that is helping things???? Then they'd be asked to leave the store, place of business, whatever.
You do so nicely and politely but they are asked to leave.
To everyone - if anyone thinks they can some how rip one MMO down and magically some publisher will suddenly be saintly enough to take up the mantle, you really have no idea how software development actually works, another field i've been in. Hell publishers need to be SOLD on the idea and that is harder than you are even realising, add to that if you have a game that's just collapsed from it's own community and good luck.
Now in all this I am speaking as if the minority were the majority, but let's run with this hypothetical situation - If there was no further incentive than a toxic community who made these kinds of posts and personal attacks, why would you want to?
Sure there may be another Startrek film that encourages it at some point, and yes that 'might' be enough, but probably not, certainly not enough for you to want to engage with these people constructively. Speaking generally not to the quote, people make those kinds of 'burn the game' posts and wonder why the developers don't want to talk to them specifically? This deserves a:
...I have lost respect for some of the players who post here who consistently choose to break the rules and to post abusively or to stir things up in a negative way. Those guys are a big part of the problem and I can't say I have any sympathy for them.
You see more of this behavior when people are angry - unfortunately, now the forum fires ( not the legitimate issues, mind you, although some fire inevitably ends up there, even with the well-reasoned. Tensions are high.) are, IMO, a desperate reaction to what we think the devs' attitude for us is:
We've been given solid evidence that they don't care about what we tell them; that they don't care about feedback anymore.
As a result, we see a dynamic that leads to violent outbursts over trivial issues because the person with the issue feels actively ignored by Cryptic. Add to this all the issues of late (specializations lost suddenly, rampant and unceasing XP nerfs, not enough to do, inability to do PUG queues, etc.), and we have people who are almost always reasonable spewing with vitriol.
While I understand your position (as in both your point of view and your role here), in the end this is Cryptic's community. It is their responsibility to set the tone, to set the example for civil discourse here.
So far they've either been silent or posted something that makes it worse.
Keep in mind, too, that this nearly instant buildup of tension has happened after months of players feeling ignored, of grinds being increased without regard to player reaction, and of well-liked features removed wholesale from the game.
In other words, you can't blame the fire on the straw - but you can easily blame the farmer who left candles lit in the barn.
Seeing as we're talking about this now I'm going to say this.
All I deal with on the forum in my own posts as much as I can is cold facts. This expansion hasn't gone well, that's a fact that is backed up by cold facts, the reasons are wide and varied and as much as I try to get that across in my posts, I find writing hard work and I know it shows and people misunderstand my meanings.
If I thought people were mistaken I would tell them so, and explain why. However when one has seen real evidence of something being seriously wrong you just don't argue with it.
Now trust me I'd love to see this game completely turn over a new leaf, I do genuinely. But how do we get that across to the devs? Honestly in the whole time I've been here I've never once seen the community this united, both on and off the forums, and it is sad because this is really a result of the devs never listening to us. They never listen to us on tribble, and if they had half the issues in this game would never have happened, especially tau dewagate.
I'm sorry but this was just a ticking timebomb waiting to go off, it really was. And the only ones to blame are the devs because at the end of the day we have tried to get them to realise they're not doing what fundamentally needed doing, and they ignored us.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
If anyone thinks they can some how rip one MMO down and magically some publisher will suddenly be saintly enough to take up the mantle, you really have no idea how software development actually works, another field i've been in. Hell publishers need to be SOLD on the idea and that is harder than you are even realising, add to that if you have a game that's just collapsed from it's own community and good luck.
Thats exactly what happens though. This has nothing to do with publishing, and a lot to do with the way that the license holder acts.
CBS is the license holder. When the Activision lawsuit happened late 2002 because they wanted out of the Trek gaming contract (at the time they had CLOSED their forums due to 10x more hatred towards them than cryptic has now), the franchise was then held to Bethesda...who then released the abomination called Star Trek: Legacy...they TOO got an absolute firestorm of hatred, they too closed their forum and the license was quietly revoked.
Lets look at the game we are in just now shall we? Originally devised by Harry Lang of Paramount, planned by Perpetual Entertainment and slated for a 2004/5 release. Perpetual started having monetary issues, because P2 then went bankrupt...CBS held the Star Trek Online idea and license to Cryptic.
Fact is... this game is profitable. If Cryptic or PWE or the fanbase cause its collapse I can GUARANTEE you that CBS will hand the license out to someone else.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Ofc this game is profitable they have a small overhead compared to most mmo's nearly everything in game costs money (and it does not matter if you covert dilithium to zen because someone already purchased that zen from pwe meaning they always get paid) and with the star trek ip there are plenty of players that lack impulse control and just pour buckets of money into this game.
They don't care about the playerbase as long as people are still pouring money into their pockets.
But the queue revamp has meant that players are getting tired of the game direction and are quitting meaning all the the players pouring money into pwe will run out of people to play with. As a result we are seeing several in game promotions to encourage players to login and do events aka free lobi weekend, mirror universe event with items that requires 14 days of logging into an event and even a dilithium weekend which is by far the most popular.
If you took all the star trek out of this game or better yet found someone who had no clue what star trek was and made them play this game. The game would have never made it out of beta because it has almost nothing going for it besides the ip.
Seeing as we're talking about this now I'm going to say this.
All I deal with on the forum in my own posts as much as I can is cold facts. This expansion hasn't gone well, that's a fact that is backed up by cold facts, the reasons are wide and varied and as much as I try to get that across in my posts, I find writing hard work and I know it shows and people misunderstand my meanings.
If I thought people were mistaken I would tell them so, and explain why. However when one has seen real evidence of something being seriously wrong you just don't argue with it.
Now trust me I'd love to see this game completely turn over a new leaf, I do genuinely. But how do we get that across to the devs? Honestly in the whole time I've been here I've never once seen the community this united, both on and off the forums, and it is sad because this is really a result of the devs never listening to us. They never listen to us on tribble, and if they had half the issues in this game would never have happened, especially tau dewagate.
I'm sorry but this was just a ticking timebomb waiting to go off, it really was. And the only ones to blame are the devs because at the end of the day we have tried to get them to realise they're not doing what fundamentally needed doing, and they ignored us.
I mentioned on another post about the arbitrary closing of the "Where's this 300 second thing come from?" that we seem to be dealing with Cryptic's internal culture that works this way:
Cause or allow to cause a problem
Let that problem get so big it gains critical mass, or turns into a crisis
Internally mumble amongst the Cryptic staff to come up with a technical solution, ignoring the people known as 'customers'
Implement the technical solution
Allow the technical solution to add to the crisis until it reaches breaking point
Finally make a "Top Down" Statement to the customers about why
Wonder why it hasn't quelled the anger that's built up
The solution to this is simple, but it requires Cryptic to implement: look at what the customers are saying, acknowledge what the customers are saying, find the underlying problem, identify solutions, provide forewarning by expressing those solutions to the customers, take note of any problems identified by customers and redraft if necessary, and finally, implement.
If they did that, then we wouldn't spend half the time getting angry at them with no information.
Frankly, Cryptic have nobody else but themselves to blame for CredGate, DilGate, or DeltaGate.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I mentioned on another post about the arbitrary closing of the "Where's this 300 second thing come from?" that we seem to be dealing with Cryptic's internal culture that works this way:
Cause or allow to cause a problem
Let that problem get so big it gains critical mass, or turns into a crisis
Internally mumble amongst the Cryptic staff to come up with a technical solution, ignoring the people known as 'customers'
Implement the technical solution
Allow the technical solution to add to the crisis until it reaches breaking point
Finally make a "Top Down" Statement to the customers about why
Wonder why it hasn't quelled the anger that's built up
The solution to this is simple, but it requires Cryptic to implement: look at what the customers are saying, acknowledge what the customers are saying, find the underlying problem, identify solutions, provide forewarning by expressing those solutions to the customers, take note of any problems identified by customers and redraft if necessary, and finally, implement.
If they did that, then we wouldn't spend half the time getting angry at them with no information.
Frankly, Cryptic have nobody else but themselves to blame for CredGate, DilGate, or DeltaGate.
That's a really good summary, seems so obvious what they ought to be doing really.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I wonder if any of you have noticed the unjustified mass-muting of many forum members without moderation or public notice. The people aren't banned, they aren't moderated. They simply aren't allowed to post anything anymore. Funny thing is, these weren't the worst of the lot. They were legitimate members of this community and they simply expressed (like yourselves) how they were upset with these recent changes. 2 days and counting. Trouble tickets are run around in circles and no resolution will be coming, it seems.
You can find evidence of this outside of these forums, as there are OTHER STO communities which still allow communications.
I wonder if any of you have noticed the unjustified mass-muting of many forum members without moderation or public notice. The people aren't banned, they aren't moderated. They simply aren't allowed to post anything anymore. Funny thing is, these weren't the worst of the lot. They were legitimate members of this community and they simply expressed (like yourselves) how they were upset with these recent changes. 2 days and counting. Trouble tickets are run around in circles and no resolution will be coming, it seems.
You can find evidence of this outside of these forums, as there are OTHER STO communities which still allow communications.
More than anything, I read that as them saying "you can all go f.. yourselves".
That's how I read al rivera's reaction to people not complimenting the new inventory window that made him upset.
It's how I read the entire expansion, as one giant f- you.
Much like bluegeek says "just go play something else" equally alienated from people sounds like you learned to hate working with customers, I laughed when you used the word "professional"
For my first job at 18 I got beat up, punched, kicked and stabbed at for money, I didn't cry about it, complain about people or get bitter over it.
Why? Because I was getting paid to do so, and if you can't handle your job then you quit.
Players who invested money are the stock holders and the developers are the workers.
The forum is where the investers give feedback.
Watching y'all sink emotionally over 2-3 curse words a week I mean really
There is this idea that the developers are to be address as sir and if you ever heard a podcast is where you can tell the air is just thick with manipulation, lying, cover-ups and silence vetos.
Idealistically, how I'd like the world to be those almost make me sick to my stomache.
So the developers' Dispora "until we are once again rightfully treated as dem-gods" that's both un-professional and un-realistic.
We are not paying them to receive fan-mail.
We are paying them to give us the product we want for our money.
If that last line is insulting to you, even ½ % then you have a problem.
The last 2½ years of nerfs and deleting everything wasn't accepted because people are morons you can trick any way you want up from your ivory tower of awesomeness.
Those were coped with out of love for star trek and in patience hoping developers would stop dis-assembling the whole game if we cut them some slack.
For the expansion they just turned up the nerfing and reduced features to ashes to 80,000% and so it's the feeling, like in a bad marriage, it's enough now.
Now you don't just owe for tonight, yesterday, last week, now you owe for all of it.
It's business as usual. How in the world do you hope to improve communication by censoring us? Honestly, this has got to be one of the worst PR muck ups I've ever seen. Rivera, please tell me what the point of a Cryptic community manager is anymore? Because after you took over and taco's recent comments, I don't feel welcome here anymore.
That's a really good summary, seems so obvious what they ought to be doing really.
There are only two reasons why people are condescending: They are either 100% right and can provide a good reason to prove it, or they are 100% wrong and can't admit they ROYALLY screwed up. D'Angelo and Geko are the latter.
I used to post positive stuff, but then I realized we're being ignored, ESPECIALLY when it comes to feedback that prevents the game from breaking. Now I hardly post, except to pnly call for people's heads. Can you really blame me at this point?
Thats exactly what happens though. This has nothing to do with publishing, and a lot to do with the way that the license holder acts.
Fact is... this game is profitable. If Cryptic or PWE or the fanbase cause its collapse I can GUARANTEE you that CBS will hand the license out to someone else.
You're mostly ignoring what I actually said.
I said the publisher not the licence holder. MMO's are already risky enough ventures as it is, you really have no idea what you are talking about. I can guarantee you that it's not as simple as you are making out, then add in the fact of this hypothetical situation we are talking about, that if a community caused the demise of the actual MMO itself, good luck finding anyone willing to risk millions on it.
Before anyone responds with but it's a star trek brand, yes I know I covered that in the original post, a new film or series might be incentive enough, might.
There are only two reasons why people are condescending: They are either 100% right and can provide a good reason to prove it, or they are 100% wrong and can't admit they ROYALLY screwed up. D'Angelo and Geko are the latter.
I used to post positive stuff, but then I realized we're being ignored, ESPECIALLY when it comes to feedback that prevents the game from breaking. Now I hardly post, except to pnly call for people's heads. Can you really blame me at this point?
Nope, and I wouldn't blame anyone else either for feeling the same way.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Ya know, I get where Bluegeek is coming from here. While I don't agree with him 100%. To put it in perspective, I have moderated the SFC series of games, since way back when Interplay was around. We had highs, and lows, and we always did our best to address customers concerns, by forwarding them to Erik Bethke, David Ferrel, etc. etc.
While not perfect, it worked great. Did we stumble, oh man did we ever. LOL, I can Recall a fellow Mod, who I won't mention to Protect Crim's Identity, who took it upon himself, to make sure the new and outrageous forum rules where being followed, by closing out any thread, which where affected by the rules. He made his point , and I lost well over 10 k posts, and we laugh about it now, but the thing is, The Dev's got the hint, and relaxed things. Good times, good times.
Now here is where I differ from Bluegeek, I do agree that we as the players, can catch more flies with honey, but the Dev's do need to do their part also. I am sure that quite a few of us here, would be more than willing to meet them half way. In my experience with ST fans, I find them to be very forgiving, and even willing to accept, new systems, etc.
I also know what Burnout is, big time, if it is playing a game, or moderating. If need be, take a break, your performance here, should not be taking away from your time in game, or family. If your having to put out fire after fire, then my advice is, ask for help, or address the perceived grievances. Otherwise, you will go crazy over time, and it will not be good for ya man.
As for the state of the game, we used to kid on the old forums, about how if you said Derek Smarts name three times, he would appear and rage on ya! (Which was pretty funny considering he would in fact do that. ) , Hell, I would accept rage from the Dev's myself, if they would just acknowledge anything from the people here. As it is, I get the appearance that they just no longer care anymore.
To put an example up, years ago, when AD&D 2nd Edition came out, me and my group tried it. One of the biggest arguments we had, was that how in the world could a woman, still achieve 18/00 strength, it just wasn't realistic. My own counter, was that It is a fantasy game, so why could they not have the same strength as men. But I went with them, and made our game "Realistic". I infected the beds with Bed bugs and lice, I had their packs stolen, which contained the armor keys, I brought rust into the world, along with disease. I gave them random toothaches and famine.
Soon, it wasn't a very fun game to play. Was I being a ****, sure, I suppose I was. But when they did try it my way, as a fantasy game, it turned back into the joy we loved three nights a week.
Point being, I heard their complaints, and turned back the clock, and did it their way, while still managing to meet them half way. That's all the Dev's and players need to do. But if the Dev's won't even reach out, then what is the point?
My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
Brace for impact...I know this is long and not all of you will want to read it. But I hope some of you will. And PLEASE go upthread and read what I had to say about Extra Life. I did the research on that one.
I am going to preface this by saying that I have been on both sides of the counter.
I know what it is like to be a customer receiving poor service or poor communication, sometimes in areas where it has more of an impact on what I am doing that anything that a game could possibly impact.
I also know what it is like to be on the other side of the counter, having an unreasonable level of abuse, personal accusations, threats, cursing, and vulgarity hurled at me or members of my team. Sometimes what set that person off in the first place was a legitimate problem and they were rightfully upset but let their anger carry them too far in their behavior. Other times the customer was making a mountain out of a molehill either because of some problem (such as a misunderstanding, or being emotionally on edge due to a situation like being in my store because they are doing funeral arrangements for a recently-deceased loved one), or they were very literally mentally disturbed.
I have seen and experienced both extremes: poor customer service, and poor customer behavior. They both exist and are both real problems and will have to be addressed to have any chance of fixing this situation. You may say our chances are zero, but I will say that the only way we can KNOW that for sure is by attempting to address both. If we do attempt to address both and then it fails--then we can't say it was for lack of giving the best effort.
We are clearly looking at a toxic dynamic between the devs and the community. This began with some severe missteps by the devs in both decision-making and communication, and on the dev end has continued to be exacerbated by some people losing control and posting things they should have thought through more carefully and professionally. I will say, though, that when members of the community resort to personal attacks, then the community is going too far.
I've twice in my career come into major climate/culture turnaround situations where there was a lot of destroyed goodwill, and had to be a part of turning that around. So, while the situations are not completely comparable I feel like it does give me some perspective on what's going on here.
In the most relevant instance, I actually onto the management team in a retail store that had a really horrible negative feedback loop going on, and one of the first things on my agenda was to start a one-person climate change in that place. At first it was very difficult because I was not getting full support from the rest of the management team, but it did get easier with time as some other staffing changes occurred. BUT--even in those early stages, those actions DID still make a difference.
Let me start first by defining the negative feedback loop the same way I defined it to my team and fellow managers, though I am going to be a little more blunt in describing it here than I was when I was actually speaking with my co-workers.
Some of the team at that store were tenured employees who had developed a bad attitude. The standards for quality and proper behavior towards customers were also lax at times and (though as you can imagine I could NOT say this to my fellow managers while they were still working in my store) other members of the management team including the store manager and a fellow assistant manager, quite simply did not give a damn.
Unfortunately there was another piece to what was going on, and a justification--however wrongheaded--that many of these people were using to justify themselves...some consciously, others subconsciously by absorbing it from other employees. And that was the fact...and it definitely was a fact...that we had one of the most cantankerous and oftentimes rude and unreasonable customer bases in the entire district. The level of TRIBBLE dished out onto the employees was beyond anything you'd have to deal with almost anywhere else. I know I had not believed the stories about how that store could be could possibly be true until I started working there and I saw it for myself.
BUT!
And here is the MAJOR thing that the employees were missing! Even at this store there were a lot of good customers, and others who had the potential to be good, if they felt like they were treated with respect.
Instead, some of my employees AND fellow managers were basically spoiling for a fight every time they went to the counter. We even had one guy who worked for us that was basically like this guy from the old Capital One commercials. He seemed to take a perverse pleasure in shooting customers down; you'd swear he was counting his score. (Had I actually had hiring/firing authority as opposed to just supervisory authority, I would have had that guy's butt out the door first thing on joining the management team.)
One of the key things I explained to the employees that I could get to listen (and later, as new managers came in, to the other managers) is that obviously we could not control the public's behavior. But we COULD control ourselves. And if we quit approaching each customer interaction looking for a fight, then we might well succeed in retraining some of the customers by showing them that they could have higher expectations of us than that, and that they could actually expect to be treated with dignity.
(And maybe cut us some slack and not go completely off the rails when...as unfortunately will still happen no matter what...something goes wrong.)
That part obviously is something I think Cryptic could learn from. I suspect that some of the employees at Cryptic--in addition to maybe not having public relations training (except perhaps a few)--have reached the point where they now come onto the forums expecting a fight. By rising above that and behaving professionally...even when some people in the community are being anything but...Cryptic has a chance to restart that relationship. The only ones they can really, fully control are themselves.
To people from Cryptic, I would say that if something has genuinely upset you, maybe you need to get someone else who is not as emotionally involved to post. This is the equivalent of someone working at the counter getting another employee to help rather than risking going off in the face of someone they have been at loggerheads with for a while.
Personally, I think Smirk was honest to God upset by a previous thread where he and the Cryptic team were accused of using the charity drive for underhanded purposes to milk the players, basically. Smirk's upset was visible in both posts he made about the matter. I also do think that having just gotten back from vacation and come into a crisis, he and Trendy really ARE swamped to the point where they cannot do anything else.
However--do I think what he said in the second (official) thread could have been phrased better? Yes. Definitely.
BUT...I made a decision given an overall picture of the circumstances, that a different response on my end was called for, rather than flying off the handle. And that in fact attempting a constructive response was going to be better.
I do think that since each of us in the community can control ourselves, we can each do a small part as well. We should not make gratuitous, personal attacks against Cryptic's employees. That does not mean withholding constructive criticism, suggestions, etc.
It does mean NOT taking shots that are below the belt. It also means IMO allowing for the possibility that someone is having a bad day and that we do not know all that is going on in a dev's personal life.
Let me give you an example involving Dan Stahl. Some of you may remember when, during the "Great STF Dilithium Nerf" during a previous season's release, he posted a thread about getting fleets to come together and create Harlem Shake videos.
As soon as I saw that post come up I tried to warn him that the timing was off and that this was not a good idea to do while people were so angry. So yeah, he HAD made a mistake, one I was hoping I could catch and maybe get him to step back, think about, and recall before it got out of hand.
Unfortunately by the time Dan got back to the thread people were basically frothing at the mouth, posted some nasty things, and Dan got angry and snapped back at them. Obviously this did not make things better.
However...I also had the sense that something else was going on, something that didn't have anything to do with the game. I couldn't really put my finger on it but I distinctly felt like something was wrong with Dan. Come to find out the next day when he posted, I was right. The reason his nerves were so frayed was that when he was posting that, he was up very, very late at night trying to comfort his sick, crying child.
While that doesn't erase any of the words he said, and I wish he had thought more carefully before posting that thread in the first place, this does illustrate that the devs are human, and we don't always know what might be going on that we cannot see, that could also be behind a snarky or snappish response. And in that case...I felt it was time to forgive him for that and move on.
I kind of feel the same way about Smirk's recent upset post. Maybe it wasn't the right thing to say or the right way to say what he meant. I get that. But at the same time I have this distinct feeling (correct me if I'm wrong Smirk) that when he saw the thread before that with the nasty insinuations about Cryptic's work with Extra Life, he felt like he'd been punched in the gut. It was a low blow and I think he was genuinely disgusted and upset by what he had just read. I think that had to have still been lingering when he made the announcement that because of the Delta Rising crisis, that the devs were unable to give time to the charity drive (and I do suspect that to be true). So I know that there are others here who are upset about that bit, and I also agree that objectively it was not a good thing to say. I do forgive him that one, though.
That does get to one other thing that I think we need to bear in mind. Communicating badly or with poor timing or level of detail cannot automatically be equated to lying. I think sometimes Cryptic HAS given some severe mixed messages and has changed their messages sometimes, and that is a problem.
On the other hand, I do not think it is right to assume that everything they do is due to deliberate malicious intent and I do not think it is right for me to personally treat any dev...hell, even Stephen...as if I believe that.
I mean...the thing is, I do believe Cryptic is very likely telling the truth about the nature of the exploit and the numbers involved. Without getting into details that should not be on the forum, and as I have said before I will not discuss by PM either, I did hear things in Zone chat before Stephen's explanation that lined up with what he said. There are things that were very likely going on that went WAY beyond simply doing a patrol with some bugged enemy scaling, and I can think of some things offhand that could produce the kind of extreme leveling he described, that darned well ARE against the TOS and those who engaged in them should be sanctioned for them.
I think the devs made a terrible mistake in the solution they chose to address the problem and the way thy communicated it. But, I do not think that gives me sufficient evidence to make an accusation of malicious lying.
Overall, I think Cryptic has got to reform its behavior and I DO think that they have the greatest power to change the tone. Communicate better, make better decisions.
At the same time, I would like the community to demonstrate fully that we can be civil. Should Cryptic continue on exactly the same course then we will have our answer on what is going on, but let's not provide any excuses or flat-out push people to the breaking point just because we're on the Internet or because we're a customer and we think that gives us the right to not just complain but hurl abuse.
I was serious and remain so, even after having made and posted the decision to halt contributions to the Zen economy, about my willingness to sit down and speak with any dev who is willing to talk with me about the state of the game and what meaningful things Cryptic could do to try to make this situation right. That does not mean I am going to agree with everything that is said, or that I will refrain from criticism. I am, however, going to refrain from abusive language or always assuming the worst about every aspect of this mess. It seems STOLeviathan feels the same way, and I am sure there are others.
That does not make me a Cryptic defender. I know very well that they have erred, and badly. But, I am not going to shut down communications on my side. And as I said in a prior post...should someone want to talk, my ready room door, for one, is open. I am willing to rationally explain why I am a dissatisfied customer, LISTEN in a two-sided conversation, and try to see if there is any sort of way to rectify the problems and move forward.
So, though it may be unpopular, I do have to agree that STOLeviathan is right that Cryptic has got to take some serious steps to fix this, and needs to listen to the players--AND also agree that even with Cryptic bearing more of the burden, it IS a two-way street and we need to make sure, even for those who are furious with them, to at the VERY least be civil to avoid giving even the slightest excuse. Or, at best, to show that at least some of us are willing to participate in a two-way conversation.
I nominate you to be a forum moderator and mayb a player-dev communicator if they are willing to discuss stuff which in my exp i doubt- good post me agree
What I find saddening about all of this is many of us saw it coming...
Incoming mega post...
I've been here since Beta. I was here for the "Year of Hell and No Content" when Cryptic was quietly being bought by perfect world and no one would tell us anything.
I stuck up for them... a lot...
But more and more so lately... I get the feeling that Geko and the rest of the Crony squad at Cryptic just don't care anymore... If fact I've seen/heard a number of posts/chats with him lately where I am left feeling like he's basically giving the player base a big F U. Your not stroking my ego so now lalalalala I'm not listening. D'Angelo does not appear to be much better...
Let's look at all the broken/infinitely delayed promises by Atari, Cryptic, Perfect World...
Some gems from the very beginning of the game...
1. We are going to add more factions to the game... didn't happen till 3 to 4 years later with LOR and they aren't really a full faction.
2. We are going to fix the Klingons to be a less PvP based faction... they sort of delivered on this one still took them a couple of years... however keeping up on adding to this faction. We are implied to "Isn't profitable" they are only a small subsection of the population.
3. We will never make the best ships in the game only available through the C-Store... bwhahahahaha ... I think you take my meaning.
Some gems from the mid years of STO
1. Year of hell and no content... Just wait guys it's coming... It only took an entire yearish. Granted not 100% Cryptic's fault they we're being sold... but still not inspiring.
2. We're going to rework PvP to make it more enjoyable for people to participate in and better balanced... never ever happened. Still waiting.
3. We're going to keep making featured episodes... we aim to do them every couple months to 6 months... My that petered out quickly... Now I understand that was partially do to the cost involved but really...
4. We're going to combine all of our currencies down to 1 or 2 so that budgeting for everything isn't so complicated and confusing... Wow I think that lasted all of like 6 months.... maybe a year?
5. We're going to remaster a bunch of the old episodes... well this is kind of true they did like 6 or 7?? So in a way I guess they we're honest... kind of...
Some gems from around Legacy of Romulus onward...
1. None of these new console are overpowered... neither are the Romulan Ships... bwahahahah snort hahahahahaha cough...
2. We're going to work on re-balancing PvP... what again guys??? Still... Hasn't... Happened...
3. We're going to revamp crafting... What they failed to mention is they we're going to turn it into a Grindy... Money Grubbing... excuse for a system... What you want mats??... go do the queues over and over again... what you want purple mats...?? Better make sure you gear up and go do the elite queues... what you want the items to up your crafting potential?? Better buy our Doff packs and Crafting packs or pay insane amounts of EC on the exchange. Oh btw we're going to make anything good cost a bunch of Dil too... oh and it's going to take 1 to 2 years to be able to max out our crafting system... unless you lay down a TRIBBLE ton of money or do a TRIBBLE ton of grinding... what you guys don't like this change well TRIBBLE you... Thanks Captain Geko
Sub-note - What I find even more disingenuous was the fact that they came to the forums looking for feedback... the feedback was overwhelmingly negative... then it was all... oh the player base is toxic and being trolls... mostly because everyone isn't jumping on board with our grind fest cash grab...
4. We're revamping the ship classes... Now in fairness the changes to cruisers we're pretty awesome... The there we're the changes to Raiders... these we're more... meh... Then there was the secondary deflector... which ended up on 1... count it 1 overpriced POS of a ship if you wanted all the gear for it... what you wanted it for all factions... better lay down a $100 dollars... oh we're totally cutting you a deal... What's that you say we still almost a year later haven't put out Secondary Deflectors for any of the other science vessels?? Um.. ah.. um.. "it's coming" (TM) btw we're releasing another expansion...
5. Hey we're releasing this super awesome new expansion called Delta Rising... It's gonna have voice overs and everything... this admittedly was not bad... but... where are the ton of new ships you promised?? Oh I see most of them are just upgrades we're going to have to pay for after already buying them from you?? What all of the other "New" ships you guys built have to be purchased through the C-Store... Really... Not a single one of them can be just "earned"... by playing the game...
6. Hey btw we are going nerf your abilities to earn EC, Dilithium and Expertise... again but don't worry we've added new things to grind... so you can still get more and we can make it look like we have a more active player base... It's a Win/Win!
7. 4 Years later and we still have bugs that I've known we're around for years... like the one that when you change zones or change Bridge Officers or pretty much anything your hot bars get all screwed up... I mean come on how many years does it take to fix one freaking bug...
The reason you are getting so much hate Cryptic is you have consistently way over promised and then been completely unable to deliver and then you act like ignoring your player base will help you fix the issue... funny I never ever felt this way the old leadership was around.
If I behaved in my job the way that people have from Cryptic have and I work in customer IT relationships... I would be fired...
I am done spending any money on this game until either Cryptic gets it's house in order or until either Perfect World or CBS do it for them or shut it down...
I'm speaking as an observer, now, who's spent a lot of time on the forums... probably more time than I've spent playing the actual game.
Congratulations sincerely, for your position and your opportunity.
Then it turned ugly. Words were twisted, misunderstood, blown out of proportion.
As a child in a family of librarians, it has been my experience that most people do not know their language specifically. This results in many opportunities for miscommunications, misunderstandings, and negative conclusions - resulting in negative encounters.
And I believe their intentions are basically good, based on my observations. Execution sometimes needs a little work, though, and there are too many people looking for excuses to lash out at Cryptic yet again based on past disappointments.
As someone who has been "disappointed" in the entire definition of customer service I have experienced with Cryptic in multiple games, I can agree with this statement. In deed, I have been left with a permanent expectation of negative treatment and a complete lack of customer service unless I call on outside authorities to enforce purchases made in another Cryptic game. That might not have affected my relationship in STO, except - while Cryptic could not be bothered to respond with any customer service to correct their mistake for over a week each time, the banned all my PWE accounts in less than a minute after I reported having trouble through the purchasing agents. They refused to deliver the purchase on time, refused to provide customer relations concerning the issue, and banned all my accounts for trying to get resolution. Then they blackmailed me with refusal to reinstate my accounts unless I eliminated the dispute without any evidence they would provide the product purchased. This is the kind of fact that has created the negativity.
Those nerd-rage disasters taken as a whole forever changed the nature of communications between Cryptic and us, and we as a community of players and devs have never fully recovered in my opinion. Until we can get past that, it's going to be hard to avoid more rage fests and bad communication.
As someone trained in both Human Relations and Ethical Philosophy, I can guarantee the onus is not on the customer base. The problems for this crisis are years in the making. Not all of them are Cryptic's fault, but all of the relationship with the customer base is Cryptic's obligation; It remains to be seen whether or not they are able to respond, or responsible. If they insist on treating us like the children in this relationship, then follow through with the analogy - Just because your kids get mouthy doesn't mean you neglect them for the rest of your life.
Either the attitudes need to change, or the people themselves need to not be on the forums at all. And I'm not saying who I mean by that. I want to be a positive force for change, but the job is too big for me or even ten of me. It's got to be a majority.
I'm generally one of those who no one likes on a forum or in corporate arenas because I make my decisions and judgments based on ethical standards. In today's world, ethics are considered to be a bad thing - which is odd since being bad is considered to be a good thing. However, I have been relatively silent in the forums for a long time. I did not become active again until recently when the release of Delta Rising began driving my guild members and friends in other guilds out of the game.
When I suggest that people play or leave, I'm not telling people to take a hike. ..... If people really want the game to succeed, the way many insist that they do, then ...
There is always going to be negative expression. One cannot paint a picture without highlights, middle-tones, and shadows. Nor would the highlights have any value without our shadows. If however, you want a picture that is more full of light, then perhaps the painting of it should take place in the open sunshine. In government, we have something called the Sunshine Law which requires the actions of government, where it doesn't violate privacy laws or risk a financial loss to the public, be open and openly reported to the public. Do we then have to deal with miscommunications, misunderstandings, mistrust, and even malicious intent? Yes! However, no matter how culpable the electorate may be for what it gets - they are never responsible for the actions of their government. If the Dev.'s feel they are unappreciated then perhaps they should attempt to keep the streets paved and the water and sewer working for people who can legally vote not to pay for it.
The more players try to engage patiently with the Devs, the more benefits we will reap. We need players to keep challenging them to improve the game, but there needs to be a measure of respect on both sides.
My father and I once discussed the commandments, such as the Honor thy Father and Mother one. My father told me that in order for me to honor him, he first had to earn that respect by honoring me. Cryptic had my respect, and the respect of many others, when we arrived here. If they want it back, they are going to have to fish it out of the dumpster in which they have tossed it away.
Just like I have lost respect for some of the players who post here who consistently choose to break the rules and to post abusively or to stir things up in a negative way. Those guys are a big part of the problem and I can't say I have any sympathy for them.
Franz Kafka wrote to this effect, 'We are given to define the negative, the positive is already established.' There is a truth in this, since it is easy to use as granted what is already working. After all, no one reports the death toll of a war by comparing it to 90 years ago when over 75,000 men were lost in one battle in a few weeks time to show how much better we handling it today. What I don't hear anyone from Cryptic asking, is "How did it get this way?", "What did we do that inspired our customers to feel and act this way?", etc. It would be a waste of time to openly appologize to anyone or the community. It would not be a waste of time to say, "This was an unpopular move, so we are making it the entertainment our customers want," as long as they actually do it. But to do this, customers (like myself) need to no longer feel like we are only viewed like paper cups to be used, crumpled up, and thrown away.
Be daring, be different, be impractical, be anything that will assert integrity of purpose and imaginative vision against the play-it-safers, the creatures of the commonplace, the slaves of the ordinary. ~ Cecil Beaton
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I'm speaking as an observer, now, who's spent a lot of time on the forums... probably more time than I've spent playing the actual game.
And remember I'm a player, not an employee. I am a customer who ends up in the odd position of having to remember that I am kinda-sorta representing a public face of the company I'm a customer of and enforcing their policies on forum use.
Dan Stahl spent a lot of time communicating with players via the forums when he was EP. At first, we forumites were ecstatic that the Devs were spending so much time talking to us and letting us in on where they wanted to go.
Then it turned ugly. Words were twisted, misunderstood, blown out of proportion. I'm not saying that Cryptic didn't make mistakes. They forgot, again, that the forums are really social media and they need to treat it like a PR nightmare waiting to happen -- as many other companies using social media have discovered to their chagrin. They have to watch what they say because they now know that it can come back to bite them hard, even when their intentions are good.
And I believe their intentions are basically good, based on my observations. Execution sometimes needs a little work, though, and there are too many people looking for excuses to lash out at Cryptic yet again based on past disappointments.
Those nerd-rage disasters taken as a whole forever changed the nature of communications between Cryptic and us, and we as a community of players and devs have never fully recovered in my opinion. Until we can get past that, it's going to be hard to avoid more rage fests and bad communication.
All of the toxic influences have to go if things are going to improve. Either the attitudes need to change, or the people themselves need to not be on the forums at all. And I'm not saying who I mean by that. I want to be a positive force for change, but the job is too big for me or even ten of me. It's got to be a majority.
When I suggest that people play or leave, I'm not telling people to take a hike. I'm saying that people need to seriously consider whether playing an MMO, Star Trek or not, really fits their personalities. Toxic venting on the forums doesn't really help anybody. If people really want the game to succeed, the way many insist that they do, then they'll need to stop flaming and perpetuating the negative stereotype of a forum rager.
The more players try to engage patiently with the Devs, the more benefits we will reap. We need players to keep challenging them to improve the game, but there needs to be a measure of respect on both sides.
I never heard the "moron" comment that some of you are reporting. That's a breakdown in customer relations that needs to be solved. Even when customers are being abusive jerks, coming out and saying it is a bad idea. I don't really want to know the details, or who said it, but I can say that I would have lost some respect for that individual for saying it publicly.
Just like I have lost respect for some of the players who post here who consistently choose to break the rules and to post abusively or to stir things up in a negative way. Those guys are a big part of the problem and I can't say I have any sympathy for them.
You sympathize with the company i understand, but i also understand if u disagreed with em you wouldnt be moderating i bet. no one cares or would risk agreeing with me the way the company has been coming down on people lately. They have their own hardluck story to tell, but many of em keep silent because of what happens to people like me...this is what makes me so angry. I picture u guys at the office counting every dollar i gave laughing at me....then hearing others on the forum tell me to shut up and take it. i wonder if anyone, even the company remembers why we even came here and decided to pay so much...if any money to em?? u guys are forgetting something very important, if you tighten the choke collar on players they begin to fail to see the enjoyment, it no longer becomes a game...it becomes work, u can give them your cash or join the daily ingame sweat shops. if u complain your comments get erased or you get treated like a troublemaker, the company and company supporters can rant and discriminate all they want as long as its in the companys favor!! ...a system designed to undermine the players rights and gaming experience. I realize im angry about em, so its been difficult to try to express myself to give my case to u guys. but i no longer worry about offending people or the company, since no one seems to care how they treated me in the first place!
ill recap as best as i can but i know u guys will probably turn another blind eye to it:
the caitians outfits cant be labeled, never could since i bought it the first year
ferisans too
my caitian freezes up in some fight sequences, its not my hardware or connection because the enemys are still attacking me the romulan is the only unglitched race i have
the vulcan ship lost significant hull points
the romulan pants clip through the boots
buttons dont always respond for abilities, infact they often are what cause my toon to freeze up in a fight but not always
the arc goes against the end user agreement contract i have with cryptic. i shouldnt have to fear not being able to be locked outta the game if thats the launcher i bought...change or modify that launcher is one thing, but to force me to use another client that is designed monitor my PC is wrong and invasive, and i refuse. i paid for a service starting with the purchase of the cd-rom and want what i paid for...how is that wrong and why should i have to feel ashamed for wanting what i paid for? now i have no problem with champions online, when u guys modified the prototype vehicles u refunded our money instead of fixing the change in powers...ok, u made it square, but i wanted the flight power.
if u where in my position u guys would be doing the same thing, even the ones at the company...f i had cheated the company they woul be all over me, since it was the othwer way around im just expected to be quiet....i have to get back to work, i hope i was clear enough to give my position and some examples of game glitches i ve been reporting that never show up on the board or get fixed, but this post will probably be erased and ill just get ignored and called a trouble maker again...adding fuel to my fire!
And the above few comments show another key issue with what appears to be Cryptic's approach to problems and disputes:
The rule seems to be, "Keeping silent unless the problem becomes a firestorm makes it fail to spread, so we can then ignore it"
Problem with this, is that it practically encourages the sort of week-long firestorm we've just seen. Look at what's come out over the week and it has built into it a series of grudges dating back years:
Issue A > Fails to ignite
Issue B > Fails to ignite
Issue C > Fails to ignite
Issue D > Ignites, spreads, reignites A, B, C
Of course as can be seen, issues A, B, and C never went away, and now are there once again. Fix D? Yeah, still got A, B, and C smouldering away.
Cryptic's approach of "ignore it and it'll go away" does not work. Great, they've reversed their silly retro-nerf decision, (to which I can only say, "About time, and passed time"). Yet all the other issues are still there, waiting to be reignited in their next major "ignore it and wait" blunder... unless they fundamentally change their attitude.
Comments
This 100% No more needs to be said.
That's money not going to STO right there. That'll teach them taking away my 3 specialisation points.
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
It is usually both although it seems like if a quarter of half the complaints do the second one, people who do the first one get lumped in with them.
Where was this said? Sorry I just find it hard to believe they'd sink that low, even if my expectations aren't that great anyway....
And remember I'm a player, not an employee. I am a customer who ends up in the odd position of having to remember that I am kinda-sorta representing a public face of the company I'm a customer of and enforcing their policies on forum use.
Dan Stahl spent a lot of time communicating with players via the forums when he was EP. At first, we forumites were ecstatic that the Devs were spending so much time talking to us and letting us in on where they wanted to go.
Then it turned ugly. Words were twisted, misunderstood, blown out of proportion. I'm not saying that Cryptic didn't make mistakes. They forgot, again, that the forums are really social media and they need to treat it like a PR nightmare waiting to happen -- as many other companies using social media have discovered to their chagrin. They have to watch what they say because they now know that it can come back to bite them hard, even when their intentions are good.
And I believe their intentions are basically good, based on my observations. Execution sometimes needs a little work, though, and there are too many people looking for excuses to lash out at Cryptic yet again based on past disappointments.
Those nerd-rage disasters taken as a whole forever changed the nature of communications between Cryptic and us, and we as a community of players and devs have never fully recovered in my opinion. Until we can get past that, it's going to be hard to avoid more rage fests and bad communication.
All of the toxic influences have to go if things are going to improve. Either the attitudes need to change, or the people themselves need to not be on the forums at all. And I'm not saying who I mean by that. I want to be a positive force for change, but the job is too big for me or even ten of me. It's got to be a majority.
When I suggest that people play or leave, I'm not telling people to take a hike. I'm saying that people need to seriously consider whether playing an MMO, Star Trek or not, really fits their personalities. Toxic venting on the forums doesn't really help anybody. If people really want the game to succeed, the way many insist that they do, then they'll need to stop flaming and perpetuating the negative stereotype of a forum rager.
The more players try to engage patiently with the Devs, the more benefits we will reap. We need players to keep challenging them to improve the game, but there needs to be a measure of respect on both sides.
I never heard the "moron" comment that some of you are reporting. That's a breakdown in customer relations that needs to be solved. Even when customers are being abusive jerks, coming out and saying it is a bad idea. I don't really want to know the details, or who said it, but I can say that I would have lost some respect for that individual for saying it publicly.
Just like I have lost respect for some of the players who post here who consistently choose to break the rules and to post abusively or to stir things up in a negative way. Those guys are a big part of the problem and I can't say I have any sympathy for them.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
That said, the only way I ever managed to make any sort of dent in that dynamic was through my own conduct towards the customers and the example and influence I exerted on my team to try to get them signed on to a better way of handling the customers...and yes, the jerks. Even when you know very well that someone is a flaming jerk, exactly as you say, the last thing you want to do is to be the one to snap because once that happens you lose all your high ground. And there was really no other way to go about it: I could not control others' words or attitudes, save for occasions when someone was so abusive that I had to eject someone from the store because I feared for the safety of my team and other customers.
At least personally I am trying to help with what I am saying. Even with deciding against participation in the Zen economy, I'm not getting any sort of kick out of watching things apart or wanting in any way to fan the flames. If there were any way I could participate in any sort of event to help have a two-way dialogue, I would be willing. My mind is not so closed that I can't have a conversation and listen, and not jump down someone's throat and rage at them as my method of expressing a disagreement.
I know by observation I am far from the only one being rational here *even in our real dissatisfaction*. There are many others. I don't want to see that fact get buried. :-/
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I have done successfully from waiting on, to reception work, to management, etc.
Honestly you help people the best you can,you use kid gloves when people and do try to help when something is honestly wrong, but if someone is saying you're entire business needs to go, as some people are here for some odd reason they think that is helping things???? Then they'd be asked to leave the store, place of business, whatever.
You do so nicely and politely but they are asked to leave.
To everyone - if anyone thinks they can some how rip one MMO down and magically some publisher will suddenly be saintly enough to take up the mantle, you really have no idea how software development actually works, another field i've been in. Hell publishers need to be SOLD on the idea and that is harder than you are even realising, add to that if you have a game that's just collapsed from it's own community and good luck.
Now in all this I am speaking as if the minority were the majority, but let's run with this hypothetical situation - If there was no further incentive than a toxic community who made these kinds of posts and personal attacks, why would you want to?
Sure there may be another Startrek film that encourages it at some point, and yes that 'might' be enough, but probably not, certainly not enough for you to want to engage with these people constructively. Speaking generally not to the quote, people make those kinds of 'burn the game' posts and wonder why the developers don't want to talk to them specifically? This deserves a:
http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg
You see more of this behavior when people are angry - unfortunately, now the forum fires ( not the legitimate issues, mind you, although some fire inevitably ends up there, even with the well-reasoned. Tensions are high.) are, IMO, a desperate reaction to what we think the devs' attitude for us is:
We've been given solid evidence that they don't care about what we tell them; that they don't care about feedback anymore.
As a result, we see a dynamic that leads to violent outbursts over trivial issues because the person with the issue feels actively ignored by Cryptic. Add to this all the issues of late (specializations lost suddenly, rampant and unceasing XP nerfs, not enough to do, inability to do PUG queues, etc.), and we have people who are almost always reasonable spewing with vitriol.
While I understand your position (as in both your point of view and your role here), in the end this is Cryptic's community. It is their responsibility to set the tone, to set the example for civil discourse here.
So far they've either been silent or posted something that makes it worse.
Keep in mind, too, that this nearly instant buildup of tension has happened after months of players feeling ignored, of grinds being increased without regard to player reaction, and of well-liked features removed wholesale from the game.
In other words, you can't blame the fire on the straw - but you can easily blame the farmer who left candles lit in the barn.
All I deal with on the forum in my own posts as much as I can is cold facts. This expansion hasn't gone well, that's a fact that is backed up by cold facts, the reasons are wide and varied and as much as I try to get that across in my posts, I find writing hard work and I know it shows and people misunderstand my meanings.
If I thought people were mistaken I would tell them so, and explain why. However when one has seen real evidence of something being seriously wrong you just don't argue with it.
Now trust me I'd love to see this game completely turn over a new leaf, I do genuinely. But how do we get that across to the devs? Honestly in the whole time I've been here I've never once seen the community this united, both on and off the forums, and it is sad because this is really a result of the devs never listening to us. They never listen to us on tribble, and if they had half the issues in this game would never have happened, especially tau dewagate.
I'm sorry but this was just a ticking timebomb waiting to go off, it really was. And the only ones to blame are the devs because at the end of the day we have tried to get them to realise they're not doing what fundamentally needed doing, and they ignored us.
Thats exactly what happens though. This has nothing to do with publishing, and a lot to do with the way that the license holder acts.
CBS is the license holder. When the Activision lawsuit happened late 2002 because they wanted out of the Trek gaming contract (at the time they had CLOSED their forums due to 10x more hatred towards them than cryptic has now), the franchise was then held to Bethesda...who then released the abomination called Star Trek: Legacy...they TOO got an absolute firestorm of hatred, they too closed their forum and the license was quietly revoked.
Lets look at the game we are in just now shall we? Originally devised by Harry Lang of Paramount, planned by Perpetual Entertainment and slated for a 2004/5 release. Perpetual started having monetary issues, because P2 then went bankrupt...CBS held the Star Trek Online idea and license to Cryptic.
Fact is... this game is profitable. If Cryptic or PWE or the fanbase cause its collapse I can GUARANTEE you that CBS will hand the license out to someone else.
They don't care about the playerbase as long as people are still pouring money into their pockets.
But the queue revamp has meant that players are getting tired of the game direction and are quitting meaning all the the players pouring money into pwe will run out of people to play with. As a result we are seeing several in game promotions to encourage players to login and do events aka free lobi weekend, mirror universe event with items that requires 14 days of logging into an event and even a dilithium weekend which is by far the most popular.
If you took all the star trek out of this game or better yet found someone who had no clue what star trek was and made them play this game. The game would have never made it out of beta because it has almost nothing going for it besides the ip.
I mentioned on another post about the arbitrary closing of the "Where's this 300 second thing come from?" that we seem to be dealing with Cryptic's internal culture that works this way:
The solution to this is simple, but it requires Cryptic to implement: look at what the customers are saying, acknowledge what the customers are saying, find the underlying problem, identify solutions, provide forewarning by expressing those solutions to the customers, take note of any problems identified by customers and redraft if necessary, and finally, implement.
If they did that, then we wouldn't spend half the time getting angry at them with no information.
Frankly, Cryptic have nobody else but themselves to blame for CredGate, DilGate, or DeltaGate.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
That's a really good summary, seems so obvious what they ought to be doing really.
You can find evidence of this outside of these forums, as there are OTHER STO communities which still allow communications.
Cryptic is not one of them. Not anymore.
Perfect World, please say "Hello" to Streisand Effect.
And SpecGate, of course.
More than anything, I read that as them saying "you can all go f.. yourselves".
That's how I read al rivera's reaction to people not complimenting the new inventory window that made him upset.
It's how I read the entire expansion, as one giant f- you.
Much like bluegeek says "just go play something else" equally alienated from people sounds like you learned to hate working with customers, I laughed when you used the word "professional"
For my first job at 18 I got beat up, punched, kicked and stabbed at for money, I didn't cry about it, complain about people or get bitter over it.
Why? Because I was getting paid to do so, and if you can't handle your job then you quit.
Players who invested money are the stock holders and the developers are the workers.
The forum is where the investers give feedback.
Watching y'all sink emotionally over 2-3 curse words a week I mean really
There is this idea that the developers are to be address as sir and if you ever heard a podcast is where you can tell the air is just thick with manipulation, lying, cover-ups and silence vetos.
Idealistically, how I'd like the world to be those almost make me sick to my stomache.
So the developers' Dispora "until we are once again rightfully treated as dem-gods" that's both un-professional and un-realistic.
We are not paying them to receive fan-mail.
We are paying them to give us the product we want for our money.
If that last line is insulting to you, even ½ % then you have a problem.
The last 2½ years of nerfs and deleting everything wasn't accepted because people are morons you can trick any way you want up from your ivory tower of awesomeness.
Those were coped with out of love for star trek and in patience hoping developers would stop dis-assembling the whole game if we cut them some slack.
For the expansion they just turned up the nerfing and reduced features to ashes to 80,000% and so it's the feeling, like in a bad marriage, it's enough now.
Now you don't just owe for tonight, yesterday, last week, now you owe for all of it.
There are only two reasons why people are condescending: They are either 100% right and can provide a good reason to prove it, or they are 100% wrong and can't admit they ROYALLY screwed up. D'Angelo and Geko are the latter.
I used to post positive stuff, but then I realized we're being ignored, ESPECIALLY when it comes to feedback that prevents the game from breaking. Now I hardly post, except to pnly call for people's heads. Can you really blame me at this point?
You're mostly ignoring what I actually said.
I said the publisher not the licence holder. MMO's are already risky enough ventures as it is, you really have no idea what you are talking about. I can guarantee you that it's not as simple as you are making out, then add in the fact of this hypothetical situation we are talking about, that if a community caused the demise of the actual MMO itself, good luck finding anyone willing to risk millions on it.
Before anyone responds with but it's a star trek brand, yes I know I covered that in the original post, a new film or series might be incentive enough, might.
Nope, and I wouldn't blame anyone else either for feeling the same way.
While not perfect, it worked great. Did we stumble, oh man did we ever. LOL, I can Recall a fellow Mod, who I won't mention to Protect Crim's Identity, who took it upon himself, to make sure the new and outrageous forum rules where being followed, by closing out any thread, which where affected by the rules. He made his point , and I lost well over 10 k posts, and we laugh about it now, but the thing is, The Dev's got the hint, and relaxed things. Good times, good times.
Now here is where I differ from Bluegeek, I do agree that we as the players, can catch more flies with honey, but the Dev's do need to do their part also. I am sure that quite a few of us here, would be more than willing to meet them half way. In my experience with ST fans, I find them to be very forgiving, and even willing to accept, new systems, etc.
I also know what Burnout is, big time, if it is playing a game, or moderating. If need be, take a break, your performance here, should not be taking away from your time in game, or family. If your having to put out fire after fire, then my advice is, ask for help, or address the perceived grievances. Otherwise, you will go crazy over time, and it will not be good for ya man.
As for the state of the game, we used to kid on the old forums, about how if you said Derek Smarts name three times, he would appear and rage on ya! (Which was pretty funny considering he would in fact do that. ) , Hell, I would accept rage from the Dev's myself, if they would just acknowledge anything from the people here. As it is, I get the appearance that they just no longer care anymore.
To put an example up, years ago, when AD&D 2nd Edition came out, me and my group tried it. One of the biggest arguments we had, was that how in the world could a woman, still achieve 18/00 strength, it just wasn't realistic. My own counter, was that It is a fantasy game, so why could they not have the same strength as men. But I went with them, and made our game "Realistic". I infected the beds with Bed bugs and lice, I had their packs stolen, which contained the armor keys, I brought rust into the world, along with disease. I gave them random toothaches and famine.
Soon, it wasn't a very fun game to play. Was I being a ****, sure, I suppose I was. But when they did try it my way, as a fantasy game, it turned back into the joy we loved three nights a week.
Point being, I heard their complaints, and turned back the clock, and did it their way, while still managing to meet them half way. That's all the Dev's and players need to do. But if the Dev's won't even reach out, then what is the point?
I nominate you to be a forum moderator and mayb a player-dev communicator if they are willing to discuss stuff which in my exp i doubt- good post me agree
Incoming mega post...
I've been here since Beta. I was here for the "Year of Hell and No Content" when Cryptic was quietly being bought by perfect world and no one would tell us anything.
I stuck up for them... a lot...
But more and more so lately... I get the feeling that Geko and the rest of the Crony squad at Cryptic just don't care anymore... If fact I've seen/heard a number of posts/chats with him lately where I am left feeling like he's basically giving the player base a big F U. Your not stroking my ego so now lalalalala I'm not listening. D'Angelo does not appear to be much better...
Let's look at all the broken/infinitely delayed promises by Atari, Cryptic, Perfect World...
Some gems from the very beginning of the game...
1. We are going to add more factions to the game... didn't happen till 3 to 4 years later with LOR and they aren't really a full faction.
2. We are going to fix the Klingons to be a less PvP based faction... they sort of delivered on this one still took them a couple of years... however keeping up on adding to this faction. We are implied to "Isn't profitable" they are only a small subsection of the population.
3. We will never make the best ships in the game only available through the C-Store... bwhahahahaha ... I think you take my meaning.
Some gems from the mid years of STO
1. Year of hell and no content... Just wait guys it's coming... It only took an entire yearish. Granted not 100% Cryptic's fault they we're being sold... but still not inspiring.
2. We're going to rework PvP to make it more enjoyable for people to participate in and better balanced... never ever happened. Still waiting.
3. We're going to keep making featured episodes... we aim to do them every couple months to 6 months... My that petered out quickly... Now I understand that was partially do to the cost involved but really...
4. We're going to combine all of our currencies down to 1 or 2 so that budgeting for everything isn't so complicated and confusing... Wow I think that lasted all of like 6 months.... maybe a year?
5. We're going to remaster a bunch of the old episodes... well this is kind of true they did like 6 or 7?? So in a way I guess they we're honest... kind of...
Some gems from around Legacy of Romulus onward...
1. None of these new console are overpowered... neither are the Romulan Ships... bwahahahah snort hahahahahaha cough...
2. We're going to work on re-balancing PvP... what again guys??? Still... Hasn't... Happened...
3. We're going to revamp crafting... What they failed to mention is they we're going to turn it into a Grindy... Money Grubbing... excuse for a system... What you want mats??... go do the queues over and over again... what you want purple mats...?? Better make sure you gear up and go do the elite queues... what you want the items to up your crafting potential?? Better buy our Doff packs and Crafting packs or pay insane amounts of EC on the exchange. Oh btw we're going to make anything good cost a bunch of Dil too... oh and it's going to take 1 to 2 years to be able to max out our crafting system... unless you lay down a TRIBBLE ton of money or do a TRIBBLE ton of grinding... what you guys don't like this change well TRIBBLE you... Thanks Captain Geko
Sub-note - What I find even more disingenuous was the fact that they came to the forums looking for feedback... the feedback was overwhelmingly negative... then it was all... oh the player base is toxic and being trolls... mostly because everyone isn't jumping on board with our grind fest cash grab...
4. We're revamping the ship classes... Now in fairness the changes to cruisers we're pretty awesome... The there we're the changes to Raiders... these we're more... meh... Then there was the secondary deflector... which ended up on 1... count it 1 overpriced POS of a ship if you wanted all the gear for it... what you wanted it for all factions... better lay down a $100 dollars... oh we're totally cutting you a deal... What's that you say we still almost a year later haven't put out Secondary Deflectors for any of the other science vessels?? Um.. ah.. um.. "it's coming" (TM) btw we're releasing another expansion...
5. Hey we're releasing this super awesome new expansion called Delta Rising... It's gonna have voice overs and everything... this admittedly was not bad... but... where are the ton of new ships you promised?? Oh I see most of them are just upgrades we're going to have to pay for after already buying them from you?? What all of the other "New" ships you guys built have to be purchased through the C-Store... Really... Not a single one of them can be just "earned"... by playing the game...
6. Hey btw we are going nerf your abilities to earn EC, Dilithium and Expertise... again but don't worry we've added new things to grind... so you can still get more and we can make it look like we have a more active player base... It's a Win/Win!
7. 4 Years later and we still have bugs that I've known we're around for years... like the one that when you change zones or change Bridge Officers or pretty much anything your hot bars get all screwed up... I mean come on how many years does it take to fix one freaking bug...
The reason you are getting so much hate Cryptic is you have consistently way over promised and then been completely unable to deliver and then you act like ignoring your player base will help you fix the issue... funny I never ever felt this way the old leadership was around.
If I behaved in my job the way that people have from Cryptic have and I work in customer IT relationships... I would be fired...
I am done spending any money on this game until either Cryptic gets it's house in order or until either Perfect World or CBS do it for them or shut it down...
My new sig till Cryptic fixes it....
As a child in a family of librarians, it has been my experience that most people do not know their language specifically. This results in many opportunities for miscommunications, misunderstandings, and negative conclusions - resulting in negative encounters.
As someone who has been "disappointed" in the entire definition of customer service I have experienced with Cryptic in multiple games, I can agree with this statement. In deed, I have been left with a permanent expectation of negative treatment and a complete lack of customer service unless I call on outside authorities to enforce purchases made in another Cryptic game. That might not have affected my relationship in STO, except - while Cryptic could not be bothered to respond with any customer service to correct their mistake for over a week each time, the banned all my PWE accounts in less than a minute after I reported having trouble through the purchasing agents. They refused to deliver the purchase on time, refused to provide customer relations concerning the issue, and banned all my accounts for trying to get resolution. Then they blackmailed me with refusal to reinstate my accounts unless I eliminated the dispute without any evidence they would provide the product purchased. This is the kind of fact that has created the negativity.
As someone trained in both Human Relations and Ethical Philosophy, I can guarantee the onus is not on the customer base. The problems for this crisis are years in the making. Not all of them are Cryptic's fault, but all of the relationship with the customer base is Cryptic's obligation; It remains to be seen whether or not they are able to respond, or responsible. If they insist on treating us like the children in this relationship, then follow through with the analogy - Just because your kids get mouthy doesn't mean you neglect them for the rest of your life.
I'm generally one of those who no one likes on a forum or in corporate arenas because I make my decisions and judgments based on ethical standards. In today's world, ethics are considered to be a bad thing - which is odd since being bad is considered to be a good thing. However, I have been relatively silent in the forums for a long time. I did not become active again until recently when the release of Delta Rising began driving my guild members and friends in other guilds out of the game.
There is always going to be negative expression. One cannot paint a picture without highlights, middle-tones, and shadows. Nor would the highlights have any value without our shadows. If however, you want a picture that is more full of light, then perhaps the painting of it should take place in the open sunshine. In government, we have something called the Sunshine Law which requires the actions of government, where it doesn't violate privacy laws or risk a financial loss to the public, be open and openly reported to the public. Do we then have to deal with miscommunications, misunderstandings, mistrust, and even malicious intent? Yes! However, no matter how culpable the electorate may be for what it gets - they are never responsible for the actions of their government. If the Dev.'s feel they are unappreciated then perhaps they should attempt to keep the streets paved and the water and sewer working for people who can legally vote not to pay for it.
My father and I once discussed the commandments, such as the Honor thy Father and Mother one. My father told me that in order for me to honor him, he first had to earn that respect by honoring me. Cryptic had my respect, and the respect of many others, when we arrived here. If they want it back, they are going to have to fish it out of the dumpster in which they have tossed it away.
Franz Kafka wrote to this effect, 'We are given to define the negative, the positive is already established.' There is a truth in this, since it is easy to use as granted what is already working. After all, no one reports the death toll of a war by comparing it to 90 years ago when over 75,000 men were lost in one battle in a few weeks time to show how much better we handling it today. What I don't hear anyone from Cryptic asking, is "How did it get this way?", "What did we do that inspired our customers to feel and act this way?", etc. It would be a waste of time to openly appologize to anyone or the community. It would not be a waste of time to say, "This was an unpopular move, so we are making it the entertainment our customers want," as long as they actually do it. But to do this, customers (like myself) need to no longer feel like we are only viewed like paper cups to be used, crumpled up, and thrown away.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
You sympathize with the company i understand, but i also understand if u disagreed with em you wouldnt be moderating i bet. no one cares or would risk agreeing with me the way the company has been coming down on people lately. They have their own hardluck story to tell, but many of em keep silent because of what happens to people like me...this is what makes me so angry. I picture u guys at the office counting every dollar i gave laughing at me....then hearing others on the forum tell me to shut up and take it. i wonder if anyone, even the company remembers why we even came here and decided to pay so much...if any money to em?? u guys are forgetting something very important, if you tighten the choke collar on players they begin to fail to see the enjoyment, it no longer becomes a game...it becomes work, u can give them your cash or join the daily ingame sweat shops. if u complain your comments get erased or you get treated like a troublemaker, the company and company supporters can rant and discriminate all they want as long as its in the companys favor!! ...a system designed to undermine the players rights and gaming experience. I realize im angry about em, so its been difficult to try to express myself to give my case to u guys. but i no longer worry about offending people or the company, since no one seems to care how they treated me in the first place!
ill recap as best as i can but i know u guys will probably turn another blind eye to it:
the caitians outfits cant be labeled, never could since i bought it the first year
ferisans too
my caitian freezes up in some fight sequences, its not my hardware or connection because the enemys are still attacking me the romulan is the only unglitched race i have
the vulcan ship lost significant hull points
the romulan pants clip through the boots
buttons dont always respond for abilities, infact they often are what cause my toon to freeze up in a fight but not always
the arc goes against the end user agreement contract i have with cryptic. i shouldnt have to fear not being able to be locked outta the game if thats the launcher i bought...change or modify that launcher is one thing, but to force me to use another client that is designed monitor my PC is wrong and invasive, and i refuse. i paid for a service starting with the purchase of the cd-rom and want what i paid for...how is that wrong and why should i have to feel ashamed for wanting what i paid for? now i have no problem with champions online, when u guys modified the prototype vehicles u refunded our money instead of fixing the change in powers...ok, u made it square, but i wanted the flight power.
if u where in my position u guys would be doing the same thing, even the ones at the company...f i had cheated the company they woul be all over me, since it was the othwer way around im just expected to be quiet....i have to get back to work, i hope i was clear enough to give my position and some examples of game glitches i ve been reporting that never show up on the board or get fixed, but this post will probably be erased and ill just get ignored and called a trouble maker again...adding fuel to my fire!
The rule seems to be, "Keeping silent unless the problem becomes a firestorm makes it fail to spread, so we can then ignore it"
Problem with this, is that it practically encourages the sort of week-long firestorm we've just seen. Look at what's come out over the week and it has built into it a series of grudges dating back years:
Issue A > Fails to ignite
Issue B > Fails to ignite
Issue C > Fails to ignite
Issue D > Ignites, spreads, reignites A, B, C
Of course as can be seen, issues A, B, and C never went away, and now are there once again. Fix D? Yeah, still got A, B, and C smouldering away.
Cryptic's approach of "ignore it and it'll go away" does not work. Great, they've reversed their silly retro-nerf decision, (to which I can only say, "About time, and passed time"). Yet all the other issues are still there, waiting to be reignited in their next major "ignore it and wait" blunder... unless they fundamentally change their attitude.
Lion Heart of Hammer Squadron