That's not the OPs argument at all. OP is describing a BETTER business move. One that is more ethical than the route Cryptic took. Personally I am resentful of how Cryptic went about this expansion and my negativity toward the company is pretty damn high.
Ship were already overpriced at $25 each. Now those same ships, to remain "competitive," are $32-$52 apiece and will still be inferior to T6. That's not good business, that's fleecing. And it's especially egregious because they feel they can get away with it by exploiting Trek fandom (and for the most part they do). By continuing these types of business practices they're killing their audience which will lead to this game getting smacked upside the head by the Invisible Hand of the Market.
I think this opinion will be different for different players based on how long they have had their ships. In my case, I have had my ship(s) for a year+ so I feel like I got my $25 out of them. Then with DR, I can put in a few bucks more and keep with the power curve. To me, this was a good deal because I like my ships and didn't want to replace them. I don't feel inferior to T6 but admittedly, the Fleet T6 ships might change that opinion.
However, to someone that just recently bought a ship before DR announcement and now they're being told 'hey, now we need $7 more to keep it up to spec,' I can see why that would be annoying.
Sure, they could have said that all T5.5 (CStore/Fleet) ships are upgraded to T5-U for free since players already spent money on these. Would I have preferred that? Of course.. I'll never argue with getting something like that for free. They could have done that and just charged for T6 ships, it would have been nice but at the same time I see where they are coming from trying to generate some profit from the expansion.
Perhaps a better compromise could have been reached. There were just a ton of threads from overly entitled people complaining like they deserve everything for free. Clearly, the OP isn't one of those people, but the ones that were like that kind of distorted the argument to where everything now sounds like whining. If I had recently purchased a ship just before announcement of DR I would probably be pretty annoyed too.
Not even considering the 3 packs let's look at prices. a T5 zen ship cost 2500 at outset. Then another 500 for fleet version, then another 700 to upgrade. That is 3700 zen in total that will not compete with a 3000zen T6 ship. RIP OFF ANYONE!? And one of my main ships is the original Sovie and I was recently making her a beast. She is T5 but not upgradable. that is stupid to the extreme and so was excluding the mirror ships which for Klingons is the bulk of a players fleet due to lack of T5 ship options for KDF. The whole ship upgrade system was done poorly.
Yes Cryptic is a business but this is not they way to stay in business. You don't TRIBBLE your consumer based and my fleet has two true lifers (Guys that have been here since beta) And they feel completely screwed with DR. This whiole expansion was poorly planned and done.
It's amazing that some people still don't understand that Cryptic is a business.
Their employees rely on their paychecks to make a living.
Some people expect them to put all the time and other resources into developing an expansion just to give it to everyone for absolutely nothing.
The ships cost next to nothing to upgrade and the system was offered as an alternative to telling people 'your ships are obsolete, go buy a new one.'
I'm cool with it.
I don't think that the issue is that people don't realize Cryptic/Perfect World is a business. I think the real issue is people are tired of being nickled and dimed. I think that this would have been taken better if they had just charged a small amount for an expansion. Instead, it looks like they want us to pay $125 for the expansion. Let's be honest here, though. The real issue is the Free-To-Play model. STO needs to find a way to make having a subscription worth it. Currently, if you are not a lifetime member, you are better off NOT having a sub, and just buying $15 worth of Zen each month. There are no new Vet Rewards. There is no playable content blocked from free players, and the stipend is only 500 Zen. You are literally better off just getting the Zen. What we need are ways for them to encourage people to actually purchase subs, instead of trying to force everything through the Z-Store.
When they announced that the upgrades would be between 700-1000z I mined dil and converted to zen until I had 1000z for all my characters. Not a single dime spent.
WOW how long did you play the game everyday? plus how were you able to grind to do research upgrades to your weapons consoles etc? Id really like to know. Im a f2p player with one character and it took me about 14 days to get the zen for a upgrade token for a t5 ship i paid for by playing the game for two months!
Not even considering the 3 packs let's look at prices. a T5 zen ship cost 2500 at outset. Then another 500 for fleet version, then another 700 to upgrade. That is 3700 zen in total that will not compete with a 3000zen T6 ship. RIP OFF ANYONE!? And one of my main ships is the original Sovie and I was recently making her a beast. She is T5 but not upgradable. that is stupid to the extreme and so was excluding the mirror ships which for Klingons is the bulk of a players fleet due to lack of T5 ship options for KDF. The whole ship upgrade system was done poorly.
Yes Cryptic is a business but this is not they way to stay in business. You don't TRIBBLE your consumer based and my fleet has two true lifers (Guys that have been here since beta) And they feel completely screwed with DR. This whiole expansion was poorly planned and done.
I could not agree more. They should not have omitted any of the Z-Store ships from being upgradeable. And I too have a Mirror Klingon ship, that is now pretty much useless. They want us to pay to upgrade some of the ships, but they will not even upgrade to a full T-6. Since there is clearly the tech to do so, now, why not just make the T-5 ships fully upgradeable to T-6!!
This is just another example of what some people think they are entitled to, vs what they actually are.
The OP's suggestion would not work because it violates the terms of the agreement with CBS. Any system that would allow an end-game Connie will never be implement.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
This is just another example of what some people think they are entitled to, vs what they actually are.
The OP's suggestion would not work because it violates the terms of the agreement with CBS. Any system that would allow an end-game Connie will never be implement.
Anytime someone throws around the words "Entitled, Entitlement, etc" they just prove they are nothing more than another example of a troll. Carry on.
T5U Ships should have been automatically upgraded to T6. All other ships should have been upgradable to T6 with a token purchase, such as Mirror ships, T1-T5 ships, etc.
Why? People who spent money feel secure in making future purchases knowing that Cryptic will honor their financial support (or extreme loyalty from grinding) which would have made players happy. Additionally, people who love a particular ship but have never been able to have it be "end game quality" would finally be vindicated and also be happy with their favorite ship being usable.
Result? Win/Win
Existing paying customers feel happy, and people who have not yet paid feel enticed to do so.
Edit for clarity:
I Love this idea so much. If this was how the update went I would buy the other two Nausicaan Ships that were a lower tier than my Guramba Siege Destroyer. I have three toons (One for each faction) and I play a Nausicaan on Klingon side and I would like to stay with that theme of ships.
SMH. T5U ships would be upgraded because they were NOT free.. They were purchased! All other ships can be upgraded to best quality with, gasp.. a purchase!
For the love of god engage your brain before your fingers please and thank you
Sorry but kinda tired of that argument.
First:
You paid for a T5 ship.
You got a t5 ship.
You still have a T5 ship.
If you want more that what you paid for you should expect to pay more. They could have not had t5 upgradable at all. If you buy a brand new 2014 car.. drive it around for a while are you going to demand a free upgrade when the 2015s come out? And again in 2016? etc? You got what you paid for, presumably enjoyed it, and yet now feel the need to complain because something better is available? Name a product that doesn't eventually get replaced by a better product eventually.
WOW how long did you play the game everyday? plus how were you able to grind to do research upgrades to your weapons consoles etc? Id really like to know. Im a f2p player with one character and it took me about 14 days to get the zen for a upgrade token for a t5 ship i paid for by playing the game for two months!
I played maybe an hour or two a day.
Four of my captains got the Crystaline Entity event which gave a lot of dil.
One got T5 in the undine rep
Another got T5 on all of them.
Three of my captains have a lot of the rich dil mining tickets.
One of my characters did a 6 series player made missions which gave 2000 each.
By the night before DR dropped I had about 6,600 zen just from dil.
It then became a T6 phantom and 4 starship upgrade.
It was the combined effort of five Feds, a rom fed, a KDF and a rom KDF
I dabbled a little with the research upgrades but nothing that cost a lot...most of the free stuff we got are sitting in my bank.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I Love this idea so much. If this was how the update went I would buy the other two Nausicaan Ships that were a lower tier than my Guramba Siege Destroyer. I have three toons (One for each faction) and I play a Nausicaan on Klingon side and I would like to stay with that theme of ships.
First:
You paid for a T5 ship.
You got a t5 ship.
You still have a T5 ship.
If you want more that what you paid for you should expect to pay more. They could have not had t5 upgradable at all. If you buy a brand new 2014 car.. drive it around for a while are you going to demand a free upgrade when the 2015s come out? And again in 2016? etc? You got what you paid for, presumably enjoyed it, and yet now feel the need to complain because something better is available? Name a product that doesn't eventually get replaced by a better product eventually.
Kind of a bad analogy there. Think of it more like a cellphone.
Say you owned a generic cellphone 5 and paid $25 for it new. Then they release the generic cellphone 6 for $30, but expect the people who bought the 5 to shell out another $7 to update the software to work on the new network. And even then the 5 phone with the updated software isn't as good as the 6 because the 6 has additional features that are only found on it.
Not even considering the 3 packs let's look at prices. a T5 zen ship cost 2500 at outset. Then another 500 for fleet version, then another 700 to upgrade. That is 3700 zen in total that will not compete with a 3000zen T6 ship. RIP OFF ANYONE!? And one of my main ships is the original Sovie and I was recently making her a beast. She is T5 but not upgradable. that is stupid to the extreme and so was excluding the mirror ships which for Klingons is the bulk of a players fleet due to lack of T5 ship options for KDF. The whole ship upgrade system was done poorly.
Yes Cryptic is a business but this is not they way to stay in business. You don't TRIBBLE your consumer based and my fleet has two true lifers (Guys that have been here since beta) And they feel completely screwed with DR. This whiole expansion was poorly planned and done.
1. not all t5s cost 2500 zen (not counting the packs or the sales. some were normally 2000)
2. adding the cost of fleet module is comparing a t5 fleet ship to the cost of T6 normal. since the t6 fleet ships are not out yet, this bit is a bit misleading.
3. MOST of the new content does not require a T6/T5u or even a T5 ship... Seen plenty of mirror ships running around, including a friend of mine who is running the DR quests in a mirror ship with no difficulties.
4. Most companies routinely come out with new products. People who bought a car last year don't claim they are 'ripped off' because the new model years have more features. You got what you paid for. No one is taking that away. UNLIKE most companies, Cryptic has made the 'old models' upgradeable. Sure you have to pay for that. You want more than what you paid for, you have to pay for more. IF you don't like the prices, don't buy the new ship and don't upgrade your old. No one is forcing you to do so. How you rationalize in your mind calling this a "RIP OFF" is either entitlement complex run amok or over exaggeration just to make a point.
Kind of a bad analogy there. Think of it more like a cellphone.
Say you owned a generic cellphone 5 and paid $25 for it new. Then they release the generic cellphone 6 for $30, but expect the people who bought the 5 to shell out another $7 to update the software to work on the new network. And even then the 5 phone with the updated software isn't as good as the 6 because the 6 has additional features that are only found on it.
Actually yours is the bad analogy. you can run the old t5 ships still.. or even a t4... NO ONE is forced to upgrade.
You are right that no one is forced to upgrade. They just wont be able to compete in high tier content because their ship wont stand up to the new difficulty standards. The analogy stands.
1. not all t5s cost 2500 zen (not counting the packs or the sales. some were normally 2000)
2. adding the cost of fleet module is comparing a t5 fleet ship to the cost of T6 normal. since the t6 fleet ships are not out yet, this bit is a bit misleading.
3. MOST of the new content does not require a T6/T5u or even a T5 ship... Seen plenty of mirror ships running around, including a friend of mine who is running the DR quests in a mirror ship with no difficulties.
4. Most companies routinely come out with new products. People who bought a car last year don't claim they are 'ripped off' because the new model years have more features. You got what you paid for. No one is taking that away. UNLIKE most companies, Cryptic has made the 'old models' upgradeable. Sure you have to pay for that. You want more than what you paid for, you have to pay for more. IF you don't like the prices, don't buy the new ship and don't upgrade your old. No one is forcing you to do so. How you rationalize in your mind calling this a "RIP OFF" is either entitlement complex run amok or over exaggeration just to make a point.
Youre actually comparing a physical car to a digital product? You do understand that the difference here is that the car is yours. It belongs to you and no one can simply take it from you. Cryptic on the other hand can definitely take things from players. Look at the retired Fleet Patrol Escort.
The sense of fail is strong with this one.. :rolleyes:
So you are totally happy with coughing over another 700 zen PER ship including 3 pack purchases? Really? Would you be so kind as to buy me the 9 Upgrade tokens I need to get my ships back up to snuff? Thanks!
I take it you've never noticed how business is done in STO.
And I take it you weren't around from the move from Lv40 cap being raised to Lv50.
And I take it you've never been around when the move came to implement endgame C-Store ships that were above the Lv40 ships like the Assault Cruiser and Vor'Cha Retrofit.
And I take it you've never been around when the cap in gear was Mk X, then Mk XI and Mk XII was implemented.
I also take it you weren't around when the Fleet Starbase / Fleet Ship system was implemented.
I also take it you weren't around when full-fledged Fleet-level ships were being sold on the C-Store and equivalents from the different Luckboxes over the years.
Until DR: At no time in STO's history were we able to get a new tier of ships for free.
And until in the short time just before DR have we been able to take old equipment and upgrade them. But it wasn't free.
So, you see, I understand how Cryptic works. DR was a bit different for them, and frankly, I'm surprised they even allowed you to upgrade old T5 ships to T5u, because past behavior showed Cryptic wouldn't allow even that.
Then you're over here stamping your feet demanding free, automatic upgrades.
Youre actually comparing a physical car to a digital product? You do understand that the difference here is that the car is yours. It belongs to you and no one can simply take it from you. Cryptic on the other hand can definitely take things from players. Look at the retired Fleet Patrol Escort.
No i am using it as an example of one type of product (among millions) that one type of company (among millions) produces and routinely replaces with a BETTER product on a regular basis. Nor does arguing with my choice of example invalidate the point. You bought a product, you used the product, the fact that a NEW product exists doesn't change the terms of purchase of any prior products.
You are right that no one is forced to upgrade. They just wont be able to compete in high tier content because their ship wont stand up to the new difficulty standards. The analogy stands.
define 'high teir' content. The new missions can be done in t4 ship... seen it done by more than one player. The 'old' ships still can do ANYTHING they could do before the new content was released. The only thing i can think of that may limit a t5 'normal' ship and/or a t4 ship is they may not be able to do elite STFs...
In short, the 'old ships' can do everything they used to.. no changes there. They can even do some of the NEW content. MAYBE not all. *
Your 'analagy fails because you said " expect the people who bought the 5 to shell out another $7 to update the software to work on the new network" sorry but the product you paid for still works and does everything you paid for it to do at the time you paid for it. NO new update is REQUIRED to do everything it used to do. The new 'elite' is designed to be doable by "about 1% of the players with maxed out gear" THAT content, the CONTENT that didn't exist when you purchased the 'old model' is arguably* only doable with the new ships and updated gears. SO?
As i see it, the 'new stuff' is only required "to be able to compete" in pvp.. or maybe* for the new elite. I have run t5 ships up against t5us and up against t6s.. There are differences to be sure. But from everything I have seen, skill is more important in the operator than the number of 'bells and whistles" on the toys.
Please understand, I DO NOT argue whether the new stuff is 'worth the price' or not. THAT is something that each person must decide for him (or her) self. Where I object is to those that try to characterize the new gear as a 'rip off' that we are somehow forced to buy and/or forced to update old to meet some need "to be able to compete"
* I say maybe because I am willing to bet there will be one or two old pros that will manage an elite in a non-upgraded ships.. To be sure most can't and won't but you know the guys.. the ones that did the old elites in shuttlecraft? Ya them. Not so much difference in T5 vs T5u or T6 that a truly skilled player cannot overcome. I have seen them.. I am not one of them, but I know they exist.
I think the best judge of the health of the game is measured by the value of Dilithium to Zen. It's the only way I've used to measure the success or failure of each new "xpac" or "item" introduced to the game. When LoR was released the value of 1 zen climbed around 80 dilithium and remained very high for months afterward. When DR was released the value climbed about 20 points and only remained that high for about 50 hours.
This is not because the story / maps / artwork / voice acting is undesirable. Actually it's some of the best yet.. I can't claim to know with 100% certainty anything but my guess is the problems being raised in the forums from Ship Upgrade costs, to gear upgrade costs to STF difficulty changes have essentially killed this xpac before it had a chance to get past the first bug hunting phase on live. From what I am seeing in fleet and the amount of ships around ESD / Dyson, etc that Delta Rising is Dead on Arrival.
Cryptic your players are very unhappy with the existing system. What are you going to do to fix it? Make T5U ships equal to T6 or keep asking us to bend over for you..
The only major change I would make to the ship upgrade system is to make it so that a 9-console T5 ship and a 10-console T5 ship both upgrade into the same 11-console T5U ship.
Cryptic could have saved a lot of time if they'd done this because it would have reduced the number of ships that they had to make and support/upkeep. It is irksome to have a Defiant Retrofit and a Fleet Defiant Retrofit both be called 'T5U' after their upgrade and yet have a different number of consoles and different stats. This just muddies the waters of terminology when people are trying to talk about T5U ships and it disappoints/angers those that find out that their T5U version of a ship isn't the top-tier T5U if they upgraded from the wrong one*. Thus it also would reduce player confusion.
*Although at least Cryptic decided to make a C-Store T5U upgrade also unlock the free upgrade for a Fleet T5U upgrade so the player doesn't have to pay twice for the upgrade in that instance, they just have to go get the fleet version and then do the now-free upgrade.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Not even considering the 3 packs let's look at prices. a T5 zen ship cost 2500 at outset. Then another 500 for fleet version, then another 700 to upgrade. That is 3700 zen in total that will not compete with a 3000zen T6 ship. RIP OFF ANYONE!? And one of my main ships is the original Sovie and I was recently making her a beast. She is T5 but not upgradable. that is stupid to the extreme and so was excluding the mirror ships which for Klingons is the bulk of a players fleet due to lack of T5 ship options for KDF. The whole ship upgrade system was done poorly.
Yes Cryptic is a business but this is not they way to stay in business. You don't TRIBBLE your consumer based and my fleet has two true lifers (Guys that have been here since beta) And they feel completely screwed with DR. This whiole expansion was poorly planned and done.
The price wouldn't be so bad if it applied to all ships in a 3pack. That would actually encourage 3 pack sales. As of this point I would be the farm they will be seeing a massive drop in 3 pack sales. Especially if there are plans to ever make a T7 of ships.
First of all the main problem with the new system is not now much it costs or anything, its that all old more canon ships are now not playable at T6, or fleet T6 stats, meaning every ship we know from the series is sup-par to cryptic designs. While it may even be kind of logical considering we play 30 years in the future, it still doesnt feel right and well ppl like me love their old ships and would have liked an ability to upgrade them further.
Most ppl I see posting to that effect specifically state that they dont care about the price, just for the ability to upgrade them. So I dont really see the "business" argument here. maybe they will slowly add those back to the c-store as T6s and just didnt wanna flood the store with hundrets of T6's at once, or they need time to make all those new T6 starship traits. There are a number of possible reasons why this still may come later or not.
Which is why when hearing about an upgrade system, I expected something like the new crafting system to be honest also applied to ships. Like we would have to get loads of stuff and then we can do a refit project which costs zen aka fleet ship modules or upgrade ship modules whatever and maybe extra dil and what not. This way players could have chosen which ship to upgrade and how far. maybe within some limits to avoid T6+ connies if they chose so but otherwise its just bs.
I will never understand how people can ask for a T7 Connie. It's a hundred year old vessel design that is obsolete by 2410 standards. That's like asking for a 2014 Model T and expecting it to be just as fast as a Lamborghini. You can't just shove a Hemi under the hood and expect it to freaking work.
Holotag Engineer Problems.
Yeah, even in the future, that tag TRIBBLE is still a thing. Deal with it. :cool:
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
T-5U ships don't get the starship mastery trait. The 4 levels of passives are nice, but the trait that comes with T5 of the mastery system REQUIRES a c-store purchase of a T6 ship.
Comments
I think this opinion will be different for different players based on how long they have had their ships. In my case, I have had my ship(s) for a year+ so I feel like I got my $25 out of them. Then with DR, I can put in a few bucks more and keep with the power curve. To me, this was a good deal because I like my ships and didn't want to replace them. I don't feel inferior to T6 but admittedly, the Fleet T6 ships might change that opinion.
However, to someone that just recently bought a ship before DR announcement and now they're being told 'hey, now we need $7 more to keep it up to spec,' I can see why that would be annoying.
Sure, they could have said that all T5.5 (CStore/Fleet) ships are upgraded to T5-U for free since players already spent money on these. Would I have preferred that? Of course.. I'll never argue with getting something like that for free. They could have done that and just charged for T6 ships, it would have been nice but at the same time I see where they are coming from trying to generate some profit from the expansion.
Perhaps a better compromise could have been reached. There were just a ton of threads from overly entitled people complaining like they deserve everything for free. Clearly, the OP isn't one of those people, but the ones that were like that kind of distorted the argument to where everything now sounds like whining. If I had recently purchased a ship just before announcement of DR I would probably be pretty annoyed too.
Yes Cryptic is a business but this is not they way to stay in business. You don't TRIBBLE your consumer based and my fleet has two true lifers (Guys that have been here since beta) And they feel completely screwed with DR. This whiole expansion was poorly planned and done.
I don't think that the issue is that people don't realize Cryptic/Perfect World is a business. I think the real issue is people are tired of being nickled and dimed. I think that this would have been taken better if they had just charged a small amount for an expansion. Instead, it looks like they want us to pay $125 for the expansion. Let's be honest here, though. The real issue is the Free-To-Play model. STO needs to find a way to make having a subscription worth it. Currently, if you are not a lifetime member, you are better off NOT having a sub, and just buying $15 worth of Zen each month. There are no new Vet Rewards. There is no playable content blocked from free players, and the stipend is only 500 Zen. You are literally better off just getting the Zen. What we need are ways for them to encourage people to actually purchase subs, instead of trying to force everything through the Z-Store.
I could not agree more. They should not have omitted any of the Z-Store ships from being upgradeable. And I too have a Mirror Klingon ship, that is now pretty much useless. They want us to pay to upgrade some of the ships, but they will not even upgrade to a full T-6. Since there is clearly the tech to do so, now, why not just make the T-5 ships fully upgradeable to T-6!!
The OP's suggestion would not work because it violates the terms of the agreement with CBS. Any system that would allow an end-game Connie will never be implement.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Anytime someone throws around the words "Entitled, Entitlement, etc" they just prove they are nothing more than another example of a troll. Carry on.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
I Love this idea so much. If this was how the update went I would buy the other two Nausicaan Ships that were a lower tier than my Guramba Siege Destroyer. I have three toons (One for each faction) and I play a Nausicaan on Klingon side and I would like to stay with that theme of ships.
Sorry but kinda tired of that argument.
First:
You paid for a T5 ship.
You got a t5 ship.
You still have a T5 ship.
If you want more that what you paid for you should expect to pay more. They could have not had t5 upgradable at all. If you buy a brand new 2014 car.. drive it around for a while are you going to demand a free upgrade when the 2015s come out? And again in 2016? etc? You got what you paid for, presumably enjoyed it, and yet now feel the need to complain because something better is available? Name a product that doesn't eventually get replaced by a better product eventually.
I played maybe an hour or two a day.
Four of my captains got the Crystaline Entity event which gave a lot of dil.
One got T5 in the undine rep
Another got T5 on all of them.
Three of my captains have a lot of the rich dil mining tickets.
One of my characters did a 6 series player made missions which gave 2000 each.
By the night before DR dropped I had about 6,600 zen just from dil.
It then became a T6 phantom and 4 starship upgrade.
It was the combined effort of five Feds, a rom fed, a KDF and a rom KDF
I dabbled a little with the research upgrades but nothing that cost a lot...most of the free stuff we got are sitting in my bank.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Thanks. I totally know what you mean!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
Kind of a bad analogy there. Think of it more like a cellphone.
Say you owned a generic cellphone 5 and paid $25 for it new. Then they release the generic cellphone 6 for $30, but expect the people who bought the 5 to shell out another $7 to update the software to work on the new network. And even then the 5 phone with the updated software isn't as good as the 6 because the 6 has additional features that are only found on it.
1. not all t5s cost 2500 zen (not counting the packs or the sales. some were normally 2000)
2. adding the cost of fleet module is comparing a t5 fleet ship to the cost of T6 normal. since the t6 fleet ships are not out yet, this bit is a bit misleading.
3. MOST of the new content does not require a T6/T5u or even a T5 ship... Seen plenty of mirror ships running around, including a friend of mine who is running the DR quests in a mirror ship with no difficulties.
4. Most companies routinely come out with new products. People who bought a car last year don't claim they are 'ripped off' because the new model years have more features. You got what you paid for. No one is taking that away. UNLIKE most companies, Cryptic has made the 'old models' upgradeable. Sure you have to pay for that. You want more than what you paid for, you have to pay for more. IF you don't like the prices, don't buy the new ship and don't upgrade your old. No one is forcing you to do so. How you rationalize in your mind calling this a "RIP OFF" is either entitlement complex run amok or over exaggeration just to make a point.
Actually yours is the bad analogy. you can run the old t5 ships still.. or even a t4... NO ONE is forced to upgrade.
Youre actually comparing a physical car to a digital product? You do understand that the difference here is that the car is yours. It belongs to you and no one can simply take it from you. Cryptic on the other hand can definitely take things from players. Look at the retired Fleet Patrol Escort.
I take it you've never noticed how business is done in STO.
And I take it you weren't around from the move from Lv40 cap being raised to Lv50.
And I take it you've never been around when the move came to implement endgame C-Store ships that were above the Lv40 ships like the Assault Cruiser and Vor'Cha Retrofit.
And I take it you've never been around when the cap in gear was Mk X, then Mk XI and Mk XII was implemented.
I also take it you weren't around when the Fleet Starbase / Fleet Ship system was implemented.
I also take it you weren't around when full-fledged Fleet-level ships were being sold on the C-Store and equivalents from the different Luckboxes over the years.
Until DR: At no time in STO's history were we able to get a new tier of ships for free.
And until in the short time just before DR have we been able to take old equipment and upgrade them. But it wasn't free.
So, you see, I understand how Cryptic works. DR was a bit different for them, and frankly, I'm surprised they even allowed you to upgrade old T5 ships to T5u, because past behavior showed Cryptic wouldn't allow even that.
Then you're over here stamping your feet demanding free, automatic upgrades.
Sorry, I just chortled a little here.
No i am using it as an example of one type of product (among millions) that one type of company (among millions) produces and routinely replaces with a BETTER product on a regular basis. Nor does arguing with my choice of example invalidate the point. You bought a product, you used the product, the fact that a NEW product exists doesn't change the terms of purchase of any prior products.
define 'high teir' content. The new missions can be done in t4 ship... seen it done by more than one player. The 'old' ships still can do ANYTHING they could do before the new content was released. The only thing i can think of that may limit a t5 'normal' ship and/or a t4 ship is they may not be able to do elite STFs...
In short, the 'old ships' can do everything they used to.. no changes there. They can even do some of the NEW content. MAYBE not all. *
Your 'analagy fails because you said " expect the people who bought the 5 to shell out another $7 to update the software to work on the new network" sorry but the product you paid for still works and does everything you paid for it to do at the time you paid for it. NO new update is REQUIRED to do everything it used to do. The new 'elite' is designed to be doable by "about 1% of the players with maxed out gear" THAT content, the CONTENT that didn't exist when you purchased the 'old model' is arguably* only doable with the new ships and updated gears. SO?
As i see it, the 'new stuff' is only required "to be able to compete" in pvp.. or maybe* for the new elite. I have run t5 ships up against t5us and up against t6s.. There are differences to be sure. But from everything I have seen, skill is more important in the operator than the number of 'bells and whistles" on the toys.
Please understand, I DO NOT argue whether the new stuff is 'worth the price' or not. THAT is something that each person must decide for him (or her) self. Where I object is to those that try to characterize the new gear as a 'rip off' that we are somehow forced to buy and/or forced to update old to meet some need "to be able to compete"
* I say maybe because I am willing to bet there will be one or two old pros that will manage an elite in a non-upgraded ships.. To be sure most can't and won't but you know the guys.. the ones that did the old elites in shuttlecraft? Ya them. Not so much difference in T5 vs T5u or T6 that a truly skilled player cannot overcome. I have seen them.. I am not one of them, but I know they exist.
This is not because the story / maps / artwork / voice acting is undesirable. Actually it's some of the best yet.. I can't claim to know with 100% certainty anything but my guess is the problems being raised in the forums from Ship Upgrade costs, to gear upgrade costs to STF difficulty changes have essentially killed this xpac before it had a chance to get past the first bug hunting phase on live. From what I am seeing in fleet and the amount of ships around ESD / Dyson, etc that Delta Rising is Dead on Arrival.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
Waaahhhhh.
Srsresponse:
The only major change I would make to the ship upgrade system is to make it so that a 9-console T5 ship and a 10-console T5 ship both upgrade into the same 11-console T5U ship.
Cryptic could have saved a lot of time if they'd done this because it would have reduced the number of ships that they had to make and support/upkeep. It is irksome to have a Defiant Retrofit and a Fleet Defiant Retrofit both be called 'T5U' after their upgrade and yet have a different number of consoles and different stats. This just muddies the waters of terminology when people are trying to talk about T5U ships and it disappoints/angers those that find out that their T5U version of a ship isn't the top-tier T5U if they upgraded from the wrong one*. Thus it also would reduce player confusion.
*Although at least Cryptic decided to make a C-Store T5U upgrade also unlock the free upgrade for a Fleet T5U upgrade so the player doesn't have to pay twice for the upgrade in that instance, they just have to go get the fleet version and then do the now-free upgrade.
-edit- p.s. There IS a T5U D'kyr. Do your homework.
Joined January 2009
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Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
The price wouldn't be so bad if it applied to all ships in a 3pack. That would actually encourage 3 pack sales. As of this point I would be the farm they will be seeing a massive drop in 3 pack sales. Especially if there are plans to ever make a T7 of ships.
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Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
I dont think you know what wellfare is.
Most ppl I see posting to that effect specifically state that they dont care about the price, just for the ability to upgrade them. So I dont really see the "business" argument here. maybe they will slowly add those back to the c-store as T6s and just didnt wanna flood the store with hundrets of T6's at once, or they need time to make all those new T6 starship traits. There are a number of possible reasons why this still may come later or not.
Which is why when hearing about an upgrade system, I expected something like the new crafting system to be honest also applied to ships. Like we would have to get loads of stuff and then we can do a refit project which costs zen aka fleet ship modules or upgrade ship modules whatever and maybe extra dil and what not. This way players could have chosen which ship to upgrade and how far. maybe within some limits to avoid T6+ connies if they chose so but otherwise its just bs.
I will never understand how people can ask for a T7 Connie. It's a hundred year old vessel design that is obsolete by 2410 standards. That's like asking for a 2014 Model T and expecting it to be just as fast as a Lamborghini. You can't just shove a Hemi under the hood and expect it to freaking work.
Holotag Engineer Problems.
Yeah, even in the future, that tag TRIBBLE is still a thing. Deal with it. :cool:
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
:eek:
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG