Which T5U ships are worth upgrading vs eventual Flt T6

varthelm

This thread does make the assumption that Fleet T6's will get the same durability and extra console that other fleet ships got. If so vs. Fleet T5U's, Fleet T6's will...

- catch up in durability (intel ships will still be a little behind by design)
- have the same number of consoles
- Have an additional Bridge Officer spot of significance (Lt commander in most cases vs FT5U)

Since (on a basic level anyway) most Fleet T5U ships will be less capable to their Fleet T6 cousins, the question here is which Fleet T5 is worth upgrading with a long view toward the Fleet T6 environment. Which will not simply be second rate vs the higher tier cousin? Here are my top picks.

Top Candiates

Fleet Patrol Escort Refit

Reasons:

- Better shield modifier vs FT6 initially
- Only lacking an ensign BO vs FT6

This ship already received a slight shield modifier buff vs its other escort cousins. Given the shield modifiers on the escort like ships on the current tier 6's, the FPER should retain that slight edge vs FT6's initially. The main benefit was the fact that it already cashed in what is usually an ensign slot on other escorts to a Lt Commander slot. This only leaves it with 4 BO's but with more powerful abilities. As a result, it should only be short an ensign slot vs fleet Tier 6 while other escorts will be down a whole Lt Commander slot.

Fleet Norgh BoP

Reasons:

- As with FPER, only lacking an ensign BO vs FT6
- No T6 raiders (yet)

While this sounds good, it does give up a console slot for that extra Lt Com BO slot so it will be one console slot short vs FT6 escorts. However, BoP's were already one console/BO ability short vs escorts anyway. Giving up a console slot to lessen the BO gap works just fine.

Scimitar

- Superior BO layout with commander level tac on a large "cruiser-sized" ship
- 5 tac consoles on a large ship
- No 5-3 weapon layout T6's yet
- hangar bay on top of it

Basically for all the reasons the scimitar is the death machine it is today. Until they come up with a 5 tac console, commander tac, 5-3 layout eqivalent T6 ship, the Scimi should still hold up very well vs FT6 even down a Lt commander BO spot.

Good candidates

Vesta

- Unique characteristics with Aux cannons and consoles
- console buff with cooldown reduction
- No T6 has a hangar bay (yet)
- upgrade to durability

The only T6 I have to compare it to is the Scryer which I believe after the fleet version comes out will have approx 10% more hull but slightly less shields. While it will have the same lack of a Lt commander slot as other T5U's, the Vesta is a truly unique ship and the hangar bay gives it something extra in compensation.

I'd also say the Wells as you can get more sci abilities on it but that one gets a free upgrade

Bortasqu

- Tactical variant has 5 tac consoles and recent trend seems to limit to 4 on large ships
- Sci variant has 4 tac consoles and Sensor Analysis! (rude)
- Universal Lt commander can be used to make tac BO commands formidable on a large ship

This ship has never gotton the love it deserves being the slow pig it is. It seems to fly more like a large fed cruiser, but the feds would kill to get a cruiser with this capability. Unless they make a FT6 clone of either the Sci or Tac versions, there should always be a valid reason one can use to keep this on the front lines.

Honorable Mentions(what edge these may have may quickly be lost versus future T6 releases)

Mogh/Avenger

the 5-3 layout keeps these in the front lines until a 5-3 cruiser with similar manuverability comes out for T6.

Escort Carriers
Basically just the Armitage and the Romulan one. Until they come out with T6's Escort carrier these ships will still have that hangar bay to somewhat compensate for their lack of the T6's extra Lt Com BO slot. Both are solid damage dealers, especially the Ar'kif or whatever it is...love that ship

Large Carriers

No T6 carriers yet but you know they will be coming. Question is, what will they be like? The most likely candidates for second rate status would the the Atrox and the Vo'quv. The Karfi? Maybe its 4-3 layout and more tac oriented BO layout keeps it around a little longer.

Fed Dread

Seeing a trend? Some unique abilities and a hangar bay vs the lack of the BO slot on the eventual Fleet Guardian.

That's my personal assessment going into DR. I honestly think Cryptic could avoid much of the angst on this issue by announcing that Fleet T6 would get a durability upgrade but not the additional console. Then there would be a reason to fly all ships, Fleet T6 and Fleet T5U alike for differing reasons.

Barring anything like that happening, what do you guys think? Any others you see hanging around vs Fleet T6 ships because of capability and not pure nostalgia?

meimeitoo

FWIW, I went on Tribble today again, and did some testing in the Contested Zone, with my T5U Aquatic Carrier. About 10 minutes in, I leveled up to lv 51, and immediately my pets recharged 50% faster! And I was solo-ing the entire sphere with ease. And then... I realized my doffs wer

ursusmorologus

Which T5U ships are worth upgrading vs eventual Flt T6

Pretty much certain at this point that only T6 will be getting any further development. It makes no sense to put any additional capital into dead-end tech that is in the process of being replaced as we speak. When they come out with a T6 that you like, you are going to wish that you still had the zen instead of a T5-U storage ship.

varthelm

ursusmorologus wrote: »

Pretty much certain at this point that only T6 will be getting any further development. It makes no sense to put any additional capital into dead-end tech that is in the process of being replaced as we speak. When they come out with a T6 that you like, you are going to wish that you still had the zen instead of a T5-U storage ship.

That's how I am feeling too but even with the current system a new ship would come along that would make one we have less desirable but it happened every now and then so we were more excited about the new shiney than the loss of the old (most of the time).

This one happened all at once with everything so looking for at least some of the old ships that will still be front line worthy at least for a while....but feelin ya there.

That and already bought the Delta pack after I heard we could upgrade our old ships but without getting all the specifics yet....(silly me)...so will have a few upgrade tokens anyway. That's just my situation.

varthelm

meimeitoo wrote: »

FWIW, I went on Tribble today again, and did some testing in the Contested Zone, with my T5U Aquatic Carrier. About 10 minutes in, I leveled up to lv 51, and immediately my pets recharged 50% faster! And I was solo-ing the entire sphere with ease. And then... I realized my doffs wer

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starsword1989

I didn't play the game long enough to have experienced the first level cap increase (40-50). But from my limited knowledge I assume that the T5 ships we can pilot at level 40 (such as the Excelsior Retrofit, Vulcan D'kyr, etc) previously belonged to the top-of-the-line endgame ships before the level cap increase at that time. In retrospect, they seemed to be performing just fine despite the new T5 ships though.

Or am I totally wrong with this judgment?

ursusmorologus

starsword1989 wrote: »

I didn't play the game long enough to have experienced the first level cap increase (40-50). But from my limited knowledge I assume that the T5 ships we can pilot at level 40 (such as the Excelsior Retrofit, Vulcan D'kyr, etc) previously belonged to the top-of-the-line endgame ships before the level cap increase at that time. In retrospect, they seemed to be performing just fine despite the new T5 ships though.

Or am I totally wrong with this judgment?

The low-level ships are fine for low-level content, including the episodes, missions, and even the current eelite STFs due to the insane amounts of systemic powercreep (rep passives, rep gear, fleet gear, lockbox traits, and so forth). The low-level ships are not adequate for high-level content, by which I mean PVP, 30k DPS, 2-man NWS, and the like, you need whole-ship powercreep for those. They are going to get harder in DR so it will require you to escalate again if you want to do them (or keep doing them). Existing ships will be fine for new low-level content.

starsword1989

I do see very strong Excelsiors around in pvp, it may be due to them being "rebalanced" with the introduction of fleet ships

ursusmorologus

starsword1989 wrote: »

I do see very strong Excelsiors around in pvp, it may be due to them being "rebalanced" with the introduction of fleet ships

It will be interesting to see how they stand up against fleet T6 for high-level content

ddesjardins

At the moment we only know of 8 ships that are T6.

More are going to be released, especially before Christmas. Lockbox ships, lobi vessels and ultimately Fleet versions - but nothing regarding stats have been released yet.

Great Thread, just a weee bit early

buddha1369

ursusmorologus wrote: »

Pretty much certain at this point that only T6 will be getting any further development. It makes no sense to put any additional capital into dead-end tech that is in the process of being replaced as we speak. When they come out with a T6 that you like, you are going to wish that you still had the zen instead of a T5-U storage ship.

Why waste your zen on T6 when Fleet T6 is coming "right now?" And why bother with Fleet T6 when T7 is "right around the corner." And of course Fleet T7 is after that, so don't bother with T7 either. And with T8 coming "soon" why waste your capital on Fleet T7?

The only way to win is not to play at all, just keep waiting for the next best thing, then wait even more for the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that.....

ddesjardins

buddha1369 wrote: »

Why waste your zen on T6 when Fleet T6 is coming "right now?" And why bother with Fleet T6 when T7 is "right around the corner." And of course Fleet T7 is after that, so don't bother with T7 either. And with T8 coming "soon" why waste your capital on Fleet T7?

The only way to win is not to play at all, just keep waiting for the next best thing, then wait even more for the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that.....

As a rule, I buy the ship primarily for the special console for the Fleet version. The fleet ship traditionally costs 1/4 the originals cost, but never comes with the console.

Arguably the consoles are for the most part junk. The Patrol Escort Refit is an example of an OP console - the Nadion Saturation Bomb - well worth getting to use on the fleet model. So for essentially 500 zen more, you get 10% to hull and shields, + 1 console. And a console that can take out an entire wave in NWS on it's own.

So yeah - gonna 'waste' a few zen. Again.

semper8

You know the fleet T5Us have +1 (11) console's on the T6 (10) ships

ursusmorologus

semper8 wrote: »

You know the fleet T5Us have +1 (11) console's on the T6 (10) ships

Fleet T6 will almost certainly get +1 console as well as all the other perks like 10% bonus to hull and shields, on top of the improvements they already come with

peterconnorfirst

Cool thread and awesome opening post. Thx for pointing out the Scimi!

On my 8 toons I currently fly JHAS, Galor, Orbweaver, Wells, Nicor, Monbosh, S'golth Escort & a Scimitar.

I placed the decision to fly those ships on the tasks at hand and their abilities on the one hand as well the fact that I simply like em and want to have fun on the other. Reason for my “liking” is that they are canon mostly and remind me of Star Trek. Cryptic managed to expand the canon in case of the Tholian ships or the Elachi pretty well.

As of this date I have a hard time “liking” any of the tier 6 ships. Performance is another thing. Atm I don’t really see any reasons to switch to a Tier 6 ship but when fleet versions are released I guess I will make a step by step comparison. Doing so between the JHAS and a “fleet” Phantom Escort for example would still hurt hard though.

varthelm

Heya Connor!...and thanks.

I am too looking forward to a Fleet Phantom. Looks to every way eclipse my poor Fleet Defiant which I love flying. Think I'll just consider it a Defiant-A, give it the same name and away I go. If only I could use the Belfast bridge on her.

Of course, a fleet T6 Defiant would have been better

gorrbagg

varthelm wrote: »

That's how I am feeling too but even with the current system a new ship would come along that would make one we have less desirable but it happened every now and then so we were more excited about the new shiney than the loss of the old (most of the time).

This one happened all at once with everything so looking for at least some of the old ships that will still be front line worthy at least for a while....but feelin ya there.

That and already bought the Delta pack after I heard we could upgrade our old ships but without getting all the specifics yet....(silly me)...so will have a few upgrade tokens anyway. That's just my situation.

?WHAT? really? WHAT?

gorrbagg

starsword1989 wrote: »

I didn't play the game long enough to have experienced the first level cap increase (40-50). But from my limited knowledge I assume that the T5 ships we can pilot at level 40 (such as the Excelsior Retrofit, Vulcan D'kyr, etc) previously belonged to the top-of-the-line endgame ships before the level cap increase at that time. In retrospect, they seemed to be performing just fine despite the new T5 ships though.

Or am I totally wrong with this judgment?

NO you are not.

gorrbagg

ursusmorologus wrote: »

The low-level ships are fine for low-level content, including the episodes, missions, and even the current eelite STFs due to the insane amounts of systemic powercreep (rep passives, rep gear, fleet gear, lockbox traits, and so forth). The low-level ships are not adequate for high-level content, by which I mean PVP, 30k DPS, 2-man NWS, and the like, you need whole-ship powercreep for those. They are going to get harder in DR so it will require you to escalate again if you want to do them (or keep doing them). Existing ships will be fine for new low-level content.

ROFLMAO, PVP is end game ROFLMAO

warmaker001b

gorrbagg wrote: »

ROFLMAO, PVP is end game ROFLMAO

PVP is a worthier endgame than the Faceroll of a Joke that we call "PVE" in this game.

Even in higher difficulties, the NPCs do nothing to improve their performance or survivability.
- They barely do any abilities.
- 99.9% of them do no repairs.
- They don't do shield facing reinforcement or distribution.
- They barely maneuver if at all in relation to their own shield facing status or what the players are doing. Donatra in KASE is the only one. Everything else just sits there to be punched in the face.
- Their damage output is laughable, except for the ultra-cheese Invisitorps from the Borg. Everything else? A joke.
- The only thing that Cryptic has done to make NPCs harder is more hull, more shields, maybe 1 cheese attack if at all if it is a "Boss" like NPC.

Really, unless you're a total newbie that has poor equipment and not a good grasp on STO's gameplay, you should be TRIBBLE the PVE of STO. And if you do have a grasp of the gameplay, even with TRIBBLE-poor ships and gear, you should be TRIBBLE the PVE of STO.

In contrast, PVP:
- You may not necessarily know the quality of your opponent... his ship, his build, his gear, his skill, unless you know them from prior fighting already.
- For all you know, you and your team may kick the other team's rears. Or, they may wipe the floor with you. Or, your team may lose but you put out a great performance. Or, your team may win but something that you're doing (or failing to do) has shown a poor performance. Etc.
- Players have a say in what happens in the fight. They do abilities, maneuvers, repairs, etc. Unlike NPCs that just stand practically still for you to beat your DPS meter off to.

Really, to try to say PVP is not endgame worthy in contrast to the mindless, overly simplistic joke that passes for PVE in STO is a stupid thing.

Even with DR, the revamped "Elite" content is nothing more but:
- Moar hull on NPCs
- Moar shields on NPCs
- Maybe a cheese attack
- The same, stupid, simple, predictable, brain-dead NPC AI that has been around for years

In short, it's the same dumb PVE with the same dumb NPCs that don't do anything but wait for you to slap their faces until you get tired of doing it.

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warmaker001b

deokkent wrote: »

Nah, he/she's right. PvP in this game is ridiculous lol. But it's true that PvE is terrible too.

Why am still playing this game again lol? Oh right, I'm waging a one man war against starfleet.

It's just we are at a point with the "PVE" in STO has long since jumped the shark. We get all these powerful new ships, new abilities, new weapons, new consoles, etc. But the NPCs are still the same, dumb, inactive NPCs that do close to no reaction regardless of what you do.

Honestly, PVE in STO right now looks like a bunch of professional fighters beating up little pre-school kids for their milk money. It's an absolute joke. And Cryptic's idea of more "Elite" content are NPCs that, instead of taking 2 punches to take down, now require 4 punches of the exact same routine that you were doing before.

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meimeitoo

"Which T5U ships are worth upgrading"

Not sure I really understand the initial question. I mean, T5U ships are not upgradable at all.

orangeitis

meimeitoo wrote: »

Tl;dr: things may not be as bad I thought they would be. Aka, T5U, counting ship-progression too, may be far less obsoleted than I originally feared.

Meanwhile, those of us who listened to dev interviews and predicted this got crapped on for trying to talk some sense into everyone. ;_;

grayfoxjames

I just hope they make a tier 6 fleet science odyssey.