Sci Fi theological debate here

captclazorus

http://www.uni.edu/morgans/astro/course/TheStar.pdf

Preferably, I am inviting sci fi fans who are also Christian believers to discuss this, or if you prefer, agnostic or atheistic input is OK. I do not mean to start a forum fire here, just trying to debate sci fi philosophy.
The link above is a short story written by the famous (or infamous ) Arthur C Clarke. Again this is another example of theodicy, why does God, allow, or even cause, things to happen to such unworthy people. In the story, the idea is that the Star of Bethlehem was actually a supernova used to direct the Wise Men to wear Jesus was born into human flesh. At this time, there was a planet full of prosperous and good life that existed there. Now some where I think I read that this race was unfallen, or at least perfect. That being said, why would God wipe them out? I agree greatly with the suggestion of the story that if God decides it, then it should be so. We should be obedient, but at the same time, evaluate what God does, and why he does it. Why would God destroy a beautiful race for our loathesome humanity?
My personal thought is that if God destroyed a race, there must also be a benevolent reason. God showed the star to the Magi because he wanted to show that the Son had entered the world. Now, Christian theology and original sin show that all the universe has been plummeted into sin. But if the race on the destroyed planet were sinless, why are they necessary for this universe? If they were clean, then they did not need to stay in our universe to be atoned for by the death of Christ. Clarke himself was a bit of an agnostic, yet still was mystified by God. Or perhaps the role of the Race was completed, and they no longer needed to exist. Either way, the apparent center of all of these event is still one thing: God's love. For that he would send his Son, who was in his very nature one with the Father and the Spirit in God, to die in the most despicable way possible, under the Romans, this shows it to be sure that God's love is still the centrifuge.
Your thoughts?

starkaos

I believe that there are three different types of actions, actions caused by God, actions caused by nature, and actions caused by men. If God is benevolent, then he would not destroy a race just because he felt like it or it served some benevolent reason. However, he would set up the universe so that supernovas are a necessary part of the universe since supernovas create atoms heavier than Iron and it was just bad luck that the supernova occurred when a race was living on another planet. After all, God must follow the Prime Directive since he does not believe in directly interfering with our lives.

grandnaguszek1

starkaos wrote: »

I believe that there are three different types of actions, actions caused by God, actions caused by nature, and actions caused by men. If God is benevolent, then he would not destroy a race just because he felt like it or it served some benevolent reason. However, he would set up the universe so that supernovas are a necessary part of the universe since supernovas create atoms heavier than Iron and it was just bad luck that the supernova occurred when a race was living on another planet. After all, God must follow the Prime Directive since he does not believe in directly interfering with our lives.

I think the Christian god has broken the prime directive plenty of times, such as giving Moses the 10 commandments.

gulberat

I do believe in a God that has involvement in our lives. I also believe our choices play a big part in what happens to us. But I ALSO believe that when God does intervene, He is not capricious.

But even from a scientific standpoint I have an objection to this story.

I would also point out that the stars likely to supernova are also far less likely to see the evolution of sentient life due to their extremely short lifespans in comparison to the much less violently explosive main-sequence dwarf stars (such as our sun). Where you typically get a nova or supernova is on the stars off of the main sequence--as in, the giants. The supergiants also burn through their fuel much faster than a main-sequence star (especially the dwarfs).

Now, I should note that main-sequence stars of a large enough size DO go through a giant phase. However, this happens after so many billions of years that if life has managed to evolve sufficiently, it will have either destroyed itself violently, been destroyed by another cataclysm (asteroid, plague, other worldwide disasters), or gotten off the planet and possibly even out of its solar system. (Though frankly I doubt, Star Trek notwithstanding, that survival chances are really that great to get to the point of death by star aging.)

That doesn't make it impossible, but it does make it less likely. So, I think that even on scientific grounds this story is shaky and written more for shock value than anything. That said, it is possible that stellar evolution, supernovae, the conditions required to create them, and the conditions necessary for evolution of life were less understood when Clarke wrote that, enough that it was not necessarily written just to be shocking...though I still suspect shock value as one of the motives, and if stellar evolution knowledge WAS well enough along to know all of what I just outlined, then this could be a case of author motive leading to handwaving away the real science in order to serve the story.

worffan101

Nope. Nope. Nonononono.

Do NOT start this again, we just got done with one.

starkaos

grandnaguszek1 wrote: »

I think the Christian god has broken the prime directive plenty of times, such as giving Moses the 10 commandments.

Technically, that would be the Judeo-Christian god since Christianity didn't exist back then. Besides the Prime Directive is broken constantly and interacting at any level with another civilization disrupts their natural evolution. However, the Prime Directive prevents more serious interfering. There is a difference between I will give a set of 10 commandments for people to live by and I will force everyone to live by these 10 commandments.

bluegeek

Guys, I am a Christian. However, the forum rules about this are quite clear. We absolutely cannot discuss religion here, or even anti-religion. It is automatically off-topic, as are politics.

There are other (Non-PWE) forums where religious discussions are allowed and encouraged, and I would urge you to find one you like and post there.

We all, regardless of affiliation, are encouraged by many authorities to follow rules. This is no different. The reason for the rule here is to prevent discord between people with different belief systems, when such discussions are not the purpose of these forums.

The purpose of these PWE-owned forums is to promote the Star Trek Online game. While we do allow some sorts of off-topic discussions in Ten Forward, I'm afraid this is not one of those. This is not a victory for atheists and agnostics -- they are not allowed to discuss their views here either.

I hope that is clear. I am now closing this thread.