The best counter to a cloaked ship is a Fed cruiser built to laugh at alpha strikes, and a Fed science vessel that catches them with their shields down. Then the Fed escorts can finish them off, if they manage to survive those two.
Saying the best counter to a cloaked ship is at least three Fed ships isn't saying much at all. Of course 3v1 is going to go in favor of the 3, unless they're all terrible.
The crux of the issue -- why Federation players keep asking for cloaks -- is because cloaking in this game has gotten out of control with the introduction of Romulans. In order to have decent cloak detection, we have to sink a lot of power into Aux... and that means we're either less durable (low Shield power), less maneuverable (low Engine power), or can't hit as hard (low Weapon power). It is not a good solution to the problem, especially for an Escort.
I don't support battle cloaks for Feds at all (because the larger purpose of a Cloak is a devastating alpha strike, not running away), but the PVP maps need to become much less cloak-friendly if you really want these threads to go away. Fed players need to be able to fly into gas clouds that disrupt cloaks, or Fed ships need built-in sensor buffs in the same way as Romulan and Klingon ships get their cloaks built-in.
Right now, PVP heavily favors the cloaked vessel. Cloaking ships get to pick and choose who and where to engage, deciding the terms of every fight. Federation players cannot anticipate alpha strikes, and thus can't truly build to adequately defend against them.
This is all rooted in gameplay balance. Try to come up with alternate solutions to the problem, instead of ignoring the fact that there IS a problem.
I think it is ridiculous that ANY Fed ship would have a cloak of ANY kind. Wasn't there only 1 Fed ship from a movie/series that had a cloak on the Fed side? If I remember correctly (and I may not though) I think the Defiant had a cloak but that was about it. A cloaking Defiant therefore would be tolerable but the thought of a cloaking Fed dreadnought almost sickens me. The USS Indestructible? The USS Beyond Non-Canon? The USS Ridiculous? Just meld all the factions into one large faction, remove any semblance of distinctiveness, let everyone wear any and all the different uniforms and use all the different bridges from any faction. ( I mean no disrespect with this response, I just feel strongly about the matter)
I think it is ridiculous that ANY Fed ship would have a cloak of ANY kind. Wasn't there only 1 Fed ship from a movie/series that had a cloak on the Fed side? If I remember correctly (and I may not though) I think the Defiant had a cloak but that was about it. A cloaking Defiant therefore would be tolerable but the thought of a cloaking Fed dreadnought almost sickens me. The USS Indestructible? The USS Beyond Non-Canon? The USS Ridiculous? Just meld all the factions into one large faction, remove any semblance of distinctiveness, let everyone wear any and all the different uniforms and use all the different bridges from any faction. ( I mean no disrespect with this response, I just feel strongly about the matter)
There was three ships in the Series with a cloaking device as I know. The Defiant with a Romulan Cloak in DS9, The Enterprise-D as Galaxy-X Version on TNG and the Oberth Class Fed ship Pegasus with an Federation interphase cloak device also in TNG.
for me the new incoming fed T6 escourt is let down by one thing... just a normal cloak=meh
after all these years and the fact kdf/rom and fed are in a so called alliance you would think fed techs have the brains to put battle cloaks on there ships.
I think its way over due imo...
Nova
No...my Fedside immersion will be ruined with such extreme deviations from canon.
I think it is ridiculous that ANY Fed ship would have a cloak of ANY kind.
It's even more ridiculous that Fed captains are commanding Undine, Dominion, Tal'shiar-Borg, Temporal, etc. etc. ships in battle regularly. This game has already become way more ridiculous than Federation ships with cloaking devices.
I think it is ridiculous that ANY Fed ship would have a cloak of ANY kind. Wasn't there only 1 Fed ship from a movie/series that had a cloak on the Fed side? If I remember correctly (and I may not though) I think the Defiant had a cloak but that was about it. A cloaking Defiant therefore would be tolerable but the thought of a cloaking Fed dreadnought almost sickens me. The USS Indestructible? The USS Beyond Non-Canon? The USS Ridiculous? Just meld all the factions into one large faction, remove any semblance of distinctiveness, let everyone wear any and all the different uniforms and use all the different bridges from any faction. ( I mean no disrespect with this response, I just feel strongly about the matter)
There will be those who will insist that Feds need Battle Cloaks until the day the game servers go dark.
And, IMO, they will still be mistaken.
I have zero problem with the idea that Feds get few cloaks and the ones they do get have limitations.
I've been blown up too many times in my KDF ships to cling to the illusion that cloaking is easy or optimal in combat. Decloaking is great when you can get away with it. Recloaking in range of an enemy is usually a bad thing.
And I accept that cloaking is a Klingon/Romulan distinction that adds flavor to the game and that there are trade-offs involved. Especially for Battle Cloak. And EBC Torpedo Boats are often more trouble than they're worth, unless you know how to build one.
The best counter to a cloaked ship is a Fed cruiser built to laugh at alpha strikes, and a Fed science vessel that catches them with their shields down. Then the Fed escorts can finish them off, if they manage to survive those two.
Why do I feel every Fed player summarily ignored this post.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Why is everyone calling this game "ridiculous"? EVERY MMO BASED ON A FRANCHISE HAS THIS KIND OF ISSUE. World of W*rCraft has been laughed at by fans for the developers' desperate attempt to use anything to continue the game's story. The result is a complicated, hard-to-justify storyline with characters that change their behaviour from one expansion to the next. As well, it's got some ludicrous items, equipment, and rideables that are either morally reprehensible (A paladin riding on a Skeletal Horse... okay.) or just impossible (how does the Chopper fly when it wobbles around so much?)
The Star Wars MMO was a dismal failure and never got to branch out into the field of "what the hell next?", but the Final Fantasy online titles both had a fever of expansions with some really silly story additions (though they are easier to get away with because the Final Fantasy franchise is famous for non-contiguous games). Ultimately, the *canon* elements of the game are anything you don't own. All your ships, all your reputation weapons, all your trinkets and stuff - none of it's real to the canon.
Plus, only TV and Film are considered Star Trek canon source, so nothing you are doing here matters anyway. Have fun playing!
No, the Feds are fine for cloaking, and to be honest cloaking while in combat didn't seem like much of an advantage when you can use abilities like jam sensors, evasive maneuvers, and quantum singularity manipulation with a little good timing to evade and buy time to activate a standard cloaking device.
Besides, the Feds have a leg up on the KDF and Romulans in the cloaking wars in one big way: Stealth detection. The Federation has more science vessels than both factions combined; science being the profession that gives such abilities as tractor beam, charged particle burst, sensor scan, etc; and specifically the Nebula class. Sure the Neby doesn't have the sharpest teeth in the fleet, but a well-timed use of that tachyon detection grid can foil any warbird, raptor, or bird-of-prey's attack run, or even a stealth assault from an entire well-coordinated fleet.
Don't count Starfleet out of the stealth arms race just because only the Avenger, Galaxy Dreadnought, and Defiant can cloak.
Admiral Katrina Tokareva - U.S.S. Cosmos, Yorktown-class Star Cruiser Admiral Dananra Lekall - R.R.W. Teverresh, Deihu-class Warbird General J'Kar son of K'tsulan - I.K.S. Dlahath, Vo'devwl-class Carrier
So why not give them battlecloaks they don't resemble Feds anymore
PvE doesn't need or require a cloak of any kind so for me it doesn't matter
not even a little
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That isn't really what he was saying. Cloaking just isn't all that spectacular. I can never understand what the big deal is about it. TBH, I rarely use it, if at all, on my KDF/RR toons. You just don't need it.
I cloak all the time on my Romulan because it makes you faster. Romulan Battle Cloak enhances Flight Speed even under full Impulse so if your trying to get somewhere pressing the cloak button will save you a few seconds and give you a DPS boost when you leave it.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
While nearly every ship in the game now boosts some kind of cloak i wouldnt mind it to much if every ship had them. However battlecloaks should be limited to ships that need them and thats raiders.
The only ship in the Fed arsenal id give a battlecloak would be tha aquarius because it has very little redeeming factors compared to its weapons layout, no flanking and less hull than other escorts at fleet level.
However, id like something else than cloaks on fed ships. Id like them to have the built in ability to find cloaked ships unless they are cloaked themselfs. It shouldnt be an instand find but enough to find them after some time so they cant hide for long or are forced to disengage.
To make up for the less ambush bonus it should also help accuracy soem bit ot crit hit chance for torps or something along the lines.
Ok most of the KDF guys know I have been a proponent for FED cloaks but battle cloaks with the current system I do NOT agree with. I do think Fed older ships the Avenger/Defiant/Galaxy x should get integrated standard cloaks or the console upgraded to battle cloaks.
Now I will argue that all cloaks should be battle cloaks. For balance reasons though I think they should be changed. With a faction specific flair. Such as the following as a example.
Romulan: Fastest cloak in the game, with only a 3 sec vulnerability while cloaking decloaking at full singularity and the normal 6 sec at no singularity power. No change in ambush damage or duration. Game lore this could be do to how more advanced Romualn cloaks are and there singularity systems
KDF: 5% more damage and 5 sec longer ambush duration, no other changes to current battle cloak. Game lore, KDF have more experience and combat experience with cloaking combat tactics and training.
Federation: -5% current ambush damage, -5 sec ambush duration, normal decloaking/cloaking vulnerability. 10% increase to shields damage resistance and power for 10 secs after decloaking. Game lore, Federation inexperience with cloaking combat tactics makes them less efficient this is made up for by more advanced Federation defense system being able to shunt power from the cloak to shields increasing shield effectiveness after decloaking.
I think this would give a very faction feel to each battlecloak system. Romulan more sneaky stealth, KDF more power and Feds more defensive.
In this current system no I believe for now that battle cloaks should only be Romulans and KDF unless a change like above is done to all cloaks.
A long time ago I tried to propose a system for all three factions to give people more of what they wanted in cloaks...the thread didn't turn out well.
I thought it was fair for all three factions, still do.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
A long time ago I tried to propose a system for all three factions to give people more of what they wanted in cloaks...the thread didn't turn out well.
I thought it was fair for all three factions, still do.
Well there will always be people that are stuck in a old mental picture of Star Trek and if it doesn't follow the shows to the letter its blasphemy.
I think my idea was pretty even handed.. I do not think I every saw your thread on it I'm sorry to say
A long time ago I tried to propose a system for all three factions to give people more of what they wanted in cloaks...the thread didn't turn out well.
I thought it was fair for all three factions, still do.
Yeah there is too many problems associated with it.
The first one is its not a matter of if the federation gets battle cloaks its a matter of when.
Only reason they haven't gotten them yet is because its primarily the only thing that the KDF originally had that the federation hasn't gotten yet that at one time was stated to be exclusively kdf but then turned over to make money where creativity was severely lacking.
There are two main problems though which I'll point out here.
First one is based on canon vs softcanon goes what they need to do is just make up some damned made up alpha quadrant summit based on this delta quadrant stuff and reach a consensus and one of the things to come out of it would be some kind of alpha pact. Where specific cross hybrid ships like say a fed/romulan klingon/romulan etc designed ship accessible to more than 1 faction and then those having battle cloaks that the federation could have access too. So that would make it somewhat canon in this Cryptic verse a combination of Algeron treaty and the little pact they had with the cloak with DS9 where you'd only use it in the delta quadrant which you'd use it in alpha anyways but no one would really give a TRIBBLE as long as no borg or voth start blowing up their vacation planets.
The 2nd thing is that for over a year now these romulans are the only ones to benefit from a cloaked ambush increase in the duration of it. So KDF has the battle cloaks where the feds don't but even if the feds got battle cloaks they would feel the burn the bop players feel when it comes to battle cloak ambush where romulans get so much room and the kdf is confined horribly.
Ironic issue on that is with these intelligence things coming out there is not even one thing that even helps this issue which is a part of the power creep problem in the eyes of the kdf player.
Well there will always be people that are stuck in a old mental picture of Star Trek and if it doesn't follow the shows to the letter its blasphemy.
I think my idea was pretty even handed.. I do not think I every saw your thread on it I'm sorry to say
My thread was months ago, long before anything known now was even a thought. So just know that my idea is from that time, so it might need some...updates. The idea is thus:
Feds: Can cloak in combat. They can still get the ambush bonus, but gain nothing else (such as faster turn while cloaked). In turn though, their cloaking abilities would remain a console.
KDF:
Raptors and BCs: Would gain all the benefits of battlecloak (faster turn and such) but could not cloak in combat, in turn would also get a higher base stealth as well.
BoPs: Would gain a considerable boost in base stealth, but aside from that, nothing else changes. (This was also made before the Flanking bonus was a thing)
Roms: Would have the highest peaks, and lowest valleys in terms of stealth, but would gain nothing else, as I felt they had a lot of advantages with their system already.
All: Cloaking of any kind would no longer play a balance factor in determining stats for ANY ship with cloaking or the potential of cloaking.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I think standard Cloak should be usable in combat.
Battle Cloak is 20s, takes 2.5s to cloak and gives you a turn and speed boost.
Normal Cloak should take 40s, take 5s to cloak and gives you no boosts.
The other thing is outside combat cooldowns tick at double speed.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Personally think the defiant and galaxy-x should be the only ships with cloaks, integrated cloaks, console is stupid, but no battle-cloaks. Can always roll a kdf or romulan character if you want a battle-cloak.
I am however also open to higher tier oberth science vessel with an integrated phase cloak that's unique to that ship only. It won't happen, but it would be cool and canon.
Doesn't the new Intel Team boff power basically give Captain's Battle cloak. Activate Intel team, slap evasive maneuvers, and activate regular cloak once out of range of enemy weapons. Not Enhanced Battle Cloak but still.
Comments
Saying the best counter to a cloaked ship is at least three Fed ships isn't saying much at all. Of course 3v1 is going to go in favor of the 3, unless they're all terrible.
The crux of the issue -- why Federation players keep asking for cloaks -- is because cloaking in this game has gotten out of control with the introduction of Romulans. In order to have decent cloak detection, we have to sink a lot of power into Aux... and that means we're either less durable (low Shield power), less maneuverable (low Engine power), or can't hit as hard (low Weapon power). It is not a good solution to the problem, especially for an Escort.
I don't support battle cloaks for Feds at all (because the larger purpose of a Cloak is a devastating alpha strike, not running away), but the PVP maps need to become much less cloak-friendly if you really want these threads to go away. Fed players need to be able to fly into gas clouds that disrupt cloaks, or Fed ships need built-in sensor buffs in the same way as Romulan and Klingon ships get their cloaks built-in.
Right now, PVP heavily favors the cloaked vessel. Cloaking ships get to pick and choose who and where to engage, deciding the terms of every fight. Federation players cannot anticipate alpha strikes, and thus can't truly build to adequately defend against them.
This is all rooted in gameplay balance. Try to come up with alternate solutions to the problem, instead of ignoring the fact that there IS a problem.
There was three ships in the Series with a cloaking device as I know. The Defiant with a Romulan Cloak in DS9, The Enterprise-D as Galaxy-X Version on TNG and the Oberth Class Fed ship Pegasus with an Federation interphase cloak device also in TNG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0R0mdEP5fc Galaxy X Cloak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Kp0JHhSqI Pegasus cloak
No...my Fedside immersion will be ruined with such extreme deviations from canon.
Don't be silly, that won't make them more OP.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
It's even more ridiculous that Fed captains are commanding Undine, Dominion, Tal'shiar-Borg, Temporal, etc. etc. ships in battle regularly. This game has already become way more ridiculous than Federation ships with cloaking devices.
I feel your pain, man.
Why do I feel every Fed player summarily ignored this post.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
The Star Wars MMO was a dismal failure and never got to branch out into the field of "what the hell next?", but the Final Fantasy online titles both had a fever of expansions with some really silly story additions (though they are easier to get away with because the Final Fantasy franchise is famous for non-contiguous games). Ultimately, the *canon* elements of the game are anything you don't own. All your ships, all your reputation weapons, all your trinkets and stuff - none of it's real to the canon.
Plus, only TV and Film are considered Star Trek canon source, so nothing you are doing here matters anyway. Have fun playing!
Captaincy, Excelsior-Class U.S.S. Bianca Beauchamp NCC-99947-F
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Besides, the Feds have a leg up on the KDF and Romulans in the cloaking wars in one big way: Stealth detection. The Federation has more science vessels than both factions combined; science being the profession that gives such abilities as tractor beam, charged particle burst, sensor scan, etc; and specifically the Nebula class. Sure the Neby doesn't have the sharpest teeth in the fleet, but a well-timed use of that tachyon detection grid can foil any warbird, raptor, or bird-of-prey's attack run, or even a stealth assault from an entire well-coordinated fleet.
Don't count Starfleet out of the stealth arms race just because only the Avenger, Galaxy Dreadnought, and Defiant can cloak.
Admiral Dananra Lekall - R.R.W. Teverresh, Deihu-class Warbird
General J'Kar son of K'tsulan - I.K.S. Dlahath, Vo'devwl-class Carrier
Don't look like Fed ships
So why not give them battlecloaks they don't resemble Feds anymore
PvE doesn't need or require a cloak of any kind so for me it doesn't matter
not even a little
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I cloak all the time on my Romulan because it makes you faster. Romulan Battle Cloak enhances Flight Speed even under full Impulse so if your trying to get somewhere pressing the cloak button will save you a few seconds and give you a DPS boost when you leave it.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
what about an exchange? you can take the OP Qib and the battlecloak, and we take your 3 intel scrap-ships...
I think it's a very good deal for you... don't you agree?
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
The only ship in the Fed arsenal id give a battlecloak would be tha aquarius because it has very little redeeming factors compared to its weapons layout, no flanking and less hull than other escorts at fleet level.
However, id like something else than cloaks on fed ships. Id like them to have the built in ability to find cloaked ships unless they are cloaked themselfs. It shouldnt be an instand find but enough to find them after some time so they cant hide for long or are forced to disengage.
To make up for the less ambush bonus it should also help accuracy soem bit ot crit hit chance for torps or something along the lines.
Now I will argue that all cloaks should be battle cloaks. For balance reasons though I think they should be changed. With a faction specific flair. Such as the following as a example.
Romulan: Fastest cloak in the game, with only a 3 sec vulnerability while cloaking decloaking at full singularity and the normal 6 sec at no singularity power. No change in ambush damage or duration. Game lore this could be do to how more advanced Romualn cloaks are and there singularity systems
KDF: 5% more damage and 5 sec longer ambush duration, no other changes to current battle cloak. Game lore, KDF have more experience and combat experience with cloaking combat tactics and training.
Federation: -5% current ambush damage, -5 sec ambush duration, normal decloaking/cloaking vulnerability. 10% increase to shields damage resistance and power for 10 secs after decloaking. Game lore, Federation inexperience with cloaking combat tactics makes them less efficient this is made up for by more advanced Federation defense system being able to shunt power from the cloak to shields increasing shield effectiveness after decloaking.
I think this would give a very faction feel to each battlecloak system. Romulan more sneaky stealth, KDF more power and Feds more defensive.
In this current system no I believe for now that battle cloaks should only be Romulans and KDF unless a change like above is done to all cloaks.
I thought it was fair for all three factions, still do.
Well there will always be people that are stuck in a old mental picture of Star Trek and if it doesn't follow the shows to the letter its blasphemy.
I think my idea was pretty even handed.. I do not think I every saw your thread on it I'm sorry to say
Yeah there is too many problems associated with it.
The first one is its not a matter of if the federation gets battle cloaks its a matter of when.
Only reason they haven't gotten them yet is because its primarily the only thing that the KDF originally had that the federation hasn't gotten yet that at one time was stated to be exclusively kdf but then turned over to make money where creativity was severely lacking.
There are two main problems though which I'll point out here.
First one is based on canon vs softcanon goes what they need to do is just make up some damned made up alpha quadrant summit based on this delta quadrant stuff and reach a consensus and one of the things to come out of it would be some kind of alpha pact. Where specific cross hybrid ships like say a fed/romulan klingon/romulan etc designed ship accessible to more than 1 faction and then those having battle cloaks that the federation could have access too. So that would make it somewhat canon in this Cryptic verse a combination of Algeron treaty and the little pact they had with the cloak with DS9 where you'd only use it in the delta quadrant which you'd use it in alpha anyways but no one would really give a TRIBBLE as long as no borg or voth start blowing up their vacation planets.
The 2nd thing is that for over a year now these romulans are the only ones to benefit from a cloaked ambush increase in the duration of it. So KDF has the battle cloaks where the feds don't but even if the feds got battle cloaks they would feel the burn the bop players feel when it comes to battle cloak ambush where romulans get so much room and the kdf is confined horribly.
Ironic issue on that is with these intelligence things coming out there is not even one thing that even helps this issue which is a part of the power creep problem in the eyes of the kdf player.
My thread was months ago, long before anything known now was even a thought. So just know that my idea is from that time, so it might need some...updates. The idea is thus:
Feds: Can cloak in combat. They can still get the ambush bonus, but gain nothing else (such as faster turn while cloaked). In turn though, their cloaking abilities would remain a console.
KDF:
Raptors and BCs: Would gain all the benefits of battlecloak (faster turn and such) but could not cloak in combat, in turn would also get a higher base stealth as well.
BoPs: Would gain a considerable boost in base stealth, but aside from that, nothing else changes. (This was also made before the Flanking bonus was a thing)
Roms: Would have the highest peaks, and lowest valleys in terms of stealth, but would gain nothing else, as I felt they had a lot of advantages with their system already.
All: Cloaking of any kind would no longer play a balance factor in determining stats for ANY ship with cloaking or the potential of cloaking.
Battle Cloak is 20s, takes 2.5s to cloak and gives you a turn and speed boost.
Normal Cloak should take 40s, take 5s to cloak and gives you no boosts.
The other thing is outside combat cooldowns tick at double speed.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I am however also open to higher tier oberth science vessel with an integrated phase cloak that's unique to that ship only. It won't happen, but it would be cool and canon.