I'm confused why can't have intel ships have a first officer? Why would having intel boffs intefer with that?
No? An intelligence officer would have a better capacity to gather information under the command of the Captain and the First Officer on a ship designed to do mostly that. The chain of command is intact. I'm not sure why a FO would interfere?
Isn't that the function of the OPERATION MANAGE STATION? Here's a hint, Data sat there.
Nope. The responsibilities of an operations are (quoting from memory alpha here):
"On board starships, the role of the operations officer evolved from older 23rd century positions, involving some functions of the Navigator, Science officer and even Engineer (although the bulk of duties of which the Navigator and Helmsman were traditionally assigned were later integrated into the singular helmsman role). As well as manning the ops station, overseeing internal systems control, communications and sensors, operations personnel also coordinated the scheduling of resources, hardware, and system usage for an entire starship, outpost, or space station. "
In other words: they managed the operations of a starship.
While I do think that it wasn't the most tasteful design decision given current RL events I do get it.
1) Cryptic were always big fans of Section 31.
2) First officer doffs are something you can do once. Hybrid class doffs are something you can do again and again with different flavors.
3) Section 31, Starfleet Intelligence etc. are canon.
What really annoys me is the idea of intelligence ships. At least one of the intelligence abilities was used on an Intrepid in the show.
This is true, and it makes me uneasy, I would hate to see Section 31 agents become usable BOFF's in the future , flying in the face of the whole "were a secretive organisation"
I mean the impression the show gave was an Invitation only clandestine group with a web command structure instead of a Pyramid structure, I would rather it was kept that way
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I'm confused why can't have intel ships have a first officer? Why would having intel boffs intefer with that?
There is no issue. Intel Class ships do have a First Officer. The First Officer comes from any Class. Intel ships simply also have a station for Intel Boffs.
And as I stated above, it makes me wonder if I will be able to slot Intel Boffs into Universal stations on my T5U ships? That would be cool.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
There is no issue. Intel Class ships do have a First Officer. The First Officer comes from any Class. Intel ships simply also have a station for Intel Boffs.
And as I stated above, it makes me wonder if I will be able to slot Intel Boffs into Universal stations on my T5U ships? That would be cool.
From what I saw in the tribble forums, No not at the moment
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It's not really a big deal. As it is now I believe you have a first officer listed under department heads, and it will probably remain so. As far as the idea of an intelligence officer onboard ships, think more like USN Naval Intelligence rather then CIA. Honestly I would be surprised if there was not someone from NI assigned to a typical Carrier Battlegroup or such.
And that's just on one planet. In a situation where ships are on some major long distance patrols on an interstellar scale it makes perfect sense to have someone from Starfleet Intelligence assigned to a ship.
Especially with all the manipulation and other Iconian related events going on. But, it would be Starfleet Intel/NI, Not Section 31.
One of the keys to conducting successful U.S. military operations is timely and accurate knowledge of an adversary's strengths, weaknesses, capabilities and intentions. This knowledge, or intelligence, is essential to preserving our national security. Naval intelligence officers provide tactical, strategic and operational intelligence support to U.S. naval forces, joint and multi-national military forces, and executive-level decision-makers in our national government.
This is not to mention the whole branch of the U.S. Department of Defence devoted to Intelligence.
Of course, Starfleet isn't always strictly military in its function, but as far as STO goes, that's the role we're most often in, and we know that Starfleet is often modeled on modern navies. So why wouldn't we have someone to fill this role? Why assume the Enterprise never had one that we just didn't see on screen. We know from many, many episodes that the fleet branch of Starfleet often worked hand in hand with Starfleet Intelligence. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_Intelligence And I think this is where these BOFFs are coming from, not Section 31.
A key part of Intelligence is also counter-intelligence - rooting out spies or double agents among your own people. This is a normal and vital function of the intelligence community, it helps keep your people safe. With the recent infiltrations by the Undine, this is more important than ever.
Now, this can all certainly be pushed to the extreme like the Soviets did (Or what happened with SHIELD in the Marvel Cinematic Universe). We just talked about this last night on the Foundry Roundtable podcast, I think there could be some great stories showing the detrimental effects of militarizing your intelligence apparatus, which could be what we're seeing here with these intel ships.
From what I saw in the tribble forums, No not at the moment
Are T5U ships even on Tribble for testing at this point in time?
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Now I don't know where you stand on the whole "this bit of Star Trek is better, this bit is trash" thing, but DS-9 used Intelligence Officers quite a bit.
DS9 was a destination. A hub for intergalactic traffic. It's not a starship.
let me make this clear. From a Section 31 standpoint, I am fine if someone wants a "Garrek" on their bridge. It won't be mine, and I happen to like the character Garrek. Cryptic has divided the game for me. It has limited my choice of customization. I will do my utmost to respect the desires of other players, even the ones with ship names like, B'ig Ju'cy Thighs.
I feel this will break the game. By refusing to allow me to upgrade my ship with my crew to T6, I have been betrayed. Feels like I already have a back stabbing int officer on my Bridge and I have lost my ship, my sense of progression. My desire to play.
DS9 was a destination. A hub for intergalactic traffic. It's not a starship.
So what that it didn't move? Intelligence is still a desirable commidity to have in any command.
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DS9 was a destination. A hub for intergalactic traffic. It's not a starship.
let me make this clear. From a Section 31 standpoint, I am fine if someone wants a "Garrek" on their bridge. It won't be mine, and I happen to like the character Garrek. Cryptic has divided the game for me. It has limited my choice of customization. I will do my utmost to respect the desires of other players, even the ones with ship names like, B'ig Ju'cy Thighs.
I feel this will break the game. By refusing to allow me to upgrade my ship with my crew to T6, I have been betrayed. Feels like I already have a back stabbing int officer on my Bridge and I have lost my ship, my sense of progression. My desire to play.
We've gone into extensive detail as to why an intel officer is not the same as a 'put there to spy on you' officer. Which you've chosen to overlook. That aside, why not, y'know...just ignore that things that are bugging you?
DS9 was a destination. A hub for intergalactic traffic. It's not a starship.
let me make this clear. From a Section 31 standpoint, I am fine if someone wants a "Garrek" on their bridge. It won't be mine, and I happen to like the character Garrek. Cryptic has divided the game for me. It has limited my choice of customization. I will do my utmost to respect the desires of other players, even the ones with ship names like, B'ig Ju'cy Thighs.
I feel this will break the game. By refusing to allow me to upgrade my ship with my crew to T6, I have been betrayed. Feels like I already have a back stabbing int officer on my Bridge and I have lost my ship, my sense of progression. My desire to play.
Then educate yourself on what the intelligence officer actually is. It is not there to spy on you, it is not Gestapo. It is there to provide information on specific situations. STO isn't about exploration, which TOS and TNG were. There was no way for there to be an effective intelligence officer on the Enterprise at that time.
"We have come across a new species, Lieutenant Intelligence Officer, what do you know about it?"
"Sir? I have no idea. It's a NEW SPECIES."
They didn't have them because they didn't need them. However in STO we are dealing with known entities and species for the most part. Entities and species that SF Intelligence has files on. Key players in politics, worlds that are heating up or cooling down politically and martially, areas in dispute, etc.
It's the intelligence officer's job to keep the captain informed of the latest news so the captain can make informed decisions. It's not the intelligence officer's job to be the KGB type of creature you are envisioning.
So what that it didn't move? Intelligence is still a desirable commidity to have in any command.
Why debate the issue? If he does not want an Intel Boff on his ship he simply does not need to buy one of the Intel ship Classes. He can simply use a non-Intel T6 ship like the Guardian or any of his existing T5 ships upgrades to T5U. And if he wants to quit the game over that, so be it. You cannot please everyone.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
If he stated that it was just a personal preference to avoid intel mechanics then there would be absolutely nothing to debate. However any assertion that it is unnatural for a starship is worth a reply because it goes beyond mere preference and tries to paint Star Trek in a very different light to what it [arguably] was (ie. a sieres that made use, if only occasionally in TNG and TOS, of intel which is fully compatible with these new T6 starships.)
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If you don't want a backstabbing Intelligence officer, then fly a Guardian Cruiser since it is highly doubtful that Tier 6 ship will have Intelligence officers.
I have a feeling that people are taking this Intelligence Officer thing a little too seriously....
Also you can still have a first officer.... I don't quite see how people are having such a hard time understanding that it will stay even with the advent of intel officers......
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I dunno. This intelligence officer thing to me still smells of Section 31 esp. given the Boff power named "Feign Disintegration" which is a known Section 31 trick.
Also, I'm confused as to why there's a discussion of political/propoganda officers or even intelligence officers. If we're talking in terms of modern day equivalents given the Boff powers I've seen for these officers, I'd liken them more to communications officers(aka information/electronic warfare officer).
I think Geko said that they're saving the First Officer system for season 10 or 11.
The game already has a First Officer system. You assign your First Officer on the Doff screen. That will not change with the addition of Intel Boffs.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Intelligence officers, the people who spy on people for money? Can never be trusted, I don't wan't one on my bridge so I'm glad I'm not getting one on my T5 ships
Why? Principle, an intelligence officer is under their own chain of command, they answer directly to Starfleet Intelligence, who in the lore are not obliged to tell Captains in the field anything they would rather be kept under wraps.
I mean its not all that far a stretch for them to put out Section-31 BOFFs next, and I don't want a Tal Shiar wannabe by another name on my vessel
How do you know s/he's spying on people for money? How do you know s/he isn't a patriot just like you who takes xir Oath of Service seriously, but who just has a different skillset than blasting things with Type X phasers and photon torpedoes?
As for the OP? Please invest in a dictionary and do some research on what actual intelligence officers do. As noted you have them confused with political officers. And even Soviet political officers didn't have the powers they were attributed in pop culture: Tom Clancy had to do a lot of guesswork in making The Hunt for Red October and that was one of the things he got wrong.
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I'm confused why can't have intel ships have a first officer? Why would having intel boffs intefer with that?
They wouldn't. Just saying that Cryptic decided to introduce the first hybrid class because you can reuse that system. You can make first officers only once.
I dunno. This intelligence officer thing to me still smells of Section 31 esp. given the Boff power named "Feign Disintegration" which is a known Section 31 trick.
Also, I'm confused as to why there's a discussion of political/propoganda officers or even intelligence officers. If we're talking in terms of modern day equivalents given the Boff powers I've seen for these officers, I'd liken them more to communications officers(aka information/electronic warfare officer).
Feign disintegration was used by the mercenaries who tried to find the Stone of Gol.
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Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Comments
No? An intelligence officer would have a better capacity to gather information under the command of the Captain and the First Officer on a ship designed to do mostly that. The chain of command is intact. I'm not sure why a FO would interfere?
Nope. The responsibilities of an operations are (quoting from memory alpha here):
"On board starships, the role of the operations officer evolved from older 23rd century positions, involving some functions of the Navigator, Science officer and even Engineer (although the bulk of duties of which the Navigator and Helmsman were traditionally assigned were later integrated into the singular helmsman role). As well as manning the ops station, overseeing internal systems control, communications and sensors, operations personnel also coordinated the scheduling of resources, hardware, and system usage for an entire starship, outpost, or space station. "
In other words: they managed the operations of a starship.
This is true, and it makes me uneasy, I would hate to see Section 31 agents become usable BOFF's in the future , flying in the face of the whole "were a secretive organisation"
I mean the impression the show gave was an Invitation only clandestine group with a web command structure instead of a Pyramid structure, I would rather it was kept that way
Because of a direct order from Admiral Marcus. And before you ask it's on need to know basis.
And as I stated above, it makes me wonder if I will be able to slot Intel Boffs into Universal stations on my T5U ships? That would be cool.
From what I saw in the tribble forums, No not at the moment
And that's just on one planet. In a situation where ships are on some major long distance patrols on an interstellar scale it makes perfect sense to have someone from Starfleet Intelligence assigned to a ship.
Especially with all the manipulation and other Iconian related events going on. But, it would be Starfleet Intel/NI, Not Section 31.
This is not to mention the whole branch of the U.S. Department of Defence devoted to Intelligence.
Of course, Starfleet isn't always strictly military in its function, but as far as STO goes, that's the role we're most often in, and we know that Starfleet is often modeled on modern navies. So why wouldn't we have someone to fill this role? Why assume the Enterprise never had one that we just didn't see on screen. We know from many, many episodes that the fleet branch of Starfleet often worked hand in hand with Starfleet Intelligence. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_Intelligence And I think this is where these BOFFs are coming from, not Section 31.
A key part of Intelligence is also counter-intelligence - rooting out spies or double agents among your own people. This is a normal and vital function of the intelligence community, it helps keep your people safe. With the recent infiltrations by the Undine, this is more important than ever.
Now, this can all certainly be pushed to the extreme like the Soviets did (Or what happened with SHIELD in the Marvel Cinematic Universe). We just talked about this last night on the Foundry Roundtable podcast, I think there could be some great stories showing the detrimental effects of militarizing your intelligence apparatus, which could be what we're seeing here with these intel ships.
DS9 was a destination. A hub for intergalactic traffic. It's not a starship.
let me make this clear. From a Section 31 standpoint, I am fine if someone wants a "Garrek" on their bridge. It won't be mine, and I happen to like the character Garrek. Cryptic has divided the game for me. It has limited my choice of customization. I will do my utmost to respect the desires of other players, even the ones with ship names like, B'ig Ju'cy Thighs.
I feel this will break the game. By refusing to allow me to upgrade my ship with my crew to T6, I have been betrayed. Feels like I already have a back stabbing int officer on my Bridge and I have lost my ship, my sense of progression. My desire to play.
Doubt it, but even if they are, we would still need Tier 6 ships to compare them to the Tier 5 upgrades.
So what that it didn't move? Intelligence is still a desirable commidity to have in any command.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
We've gone into extensive detail as to why an intel officer is not the same as a 'put there to spy on you' officer. Which you've chosen to overlook. That aside, why not, y'know...just ignore that things that are bugging you?
Well, maybe not on a Pakled ship.
Then educate yourself on what the intelligence officer actually is. It is not there to spy on you, it is not Gestapo. It is there to provide information on specific situations. STO isn't about exploration, which TOS and TNG were. There was no way for there to be an effective intelligence officer on the Enterprise at that time.
"We have come across a new species, Lieutenant Intelligence Officer, what do you know about it?"
"Sir? I have no idea. It's a NEW SPECIES."
They didn't have them because they didn't need them. However in STO we are dealing with known entities and species for the most part. Entities and species that SF Intelligence has files on. Key players in politics, worlds that are heating up or cooling down politically and martially, areas in dispute, etc.
It's the intelligence officer's job to keep the captain informed of the latest news so the captain can make informed decisions. It's not the intelligence officer's job to be the KGB type of creature you are envisioning.
Not on a Federation ship, anyway.
If he stated that it was just a personal preference to avoid intel mechanics then there would be absolutely nothing to debate. However any assertion that it is unnatural for a starship is worth a reply because it goes beyond mere preference and tries to paint Star Trek in a very different light to what it [arguably] was (ie. a sieres that made use, if only occasionally in TNG and TOS, of intel which is fully compatible with these new T6 starships.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Commander Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE FEDERATION!
...has a nice ring to it.
Also you can still have a first officer.... I don't quite see how people are having such a hard time understanding that it will stay even with the advent of intel officers......
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Kirks Prot
(As of September 3, 2014, T5U ships weren't on Tribble.)
Someone on an internet gaming forum taking something too seriously?!?
UNPOSSIBLE! :eek:
Eh, I just like to debate, personally. It's a dull day at the office.
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For me it's attempting to clear up misconceptions.
If they choose to be willfully ignorant and stop playing because of it, ah well.
Also, I'm confused as to why there's a discussion of political/propoganda officers or even intelligence officers.
How do you know s/he's spying on people for money? How do you know s/he isn't a patriot just like you who takes xir Oath of Service seriously, but who just has a different skillset than blasting things with Type X phasers and photon torpedoes?
As for the OP? Please invest in a dictionary and do some research on what actual intelligence officers do. As noted you have them confused with political officers. And even Soviet political officers didn't have the powers they were attributed in pop culture: Tom Clancy had to do a lot of guesswork in making The Hunt for Red October and that was one of the things he got wrong.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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They wouldn't. Just saying that Cryptic decided to introduce the first hybrid class because you can reuse that system. You can make first officers only once.
Feign disintegration was used by the mercenaries who tried to find the Stone of Gol.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.