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My take on the whole Tier 6 thing, and the reactions to it...
sirsitsalot
Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
Okay... Those of you who have been here since the beginning know me to bounce back and forth in a love-hate relationship with this game. But in this case, I neither love nor hate what Delta Rising is going to do, simply because I think that what they are doing is actually needed.
Ever since people reached Vice Admiral, many have asked how long it would be before they could actually play as a full admiral. Now we are about to be able to. And with a new Rank added to our character advancement and with all previous ranks having a ship tier associated with it, it is only logical to have a new ship Tier. So what if it makes the older ships obsolete in their default status? It's called vertical progression. We got used to it for Tiers 1-5. We need to just accept that Tier 6 is going to let us progress a little more vertically.
I also remember a lot of people commenting on how Cryptic needs to design new starships for this game for the whole 25th-century angle. Now that they are doing this, there's all this whining about how it looks. Come ON, people. The new Starfleet design is different, yes. But we are dealing with rechnological advancements that come with the unlocking of the knowledge associated with the Dyson Spheres, technology that far outstrips that of any known civilization in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants in this era. It stands to reason that with that new technology, changes to aesthetic design may be necessary to accommodate the new tech.
For a real world example of technology having an effect on aesthetics, look at the stealth bomber. Aesthetically, it is completely different from any other aircraft. But its form accommodates its function. Going forward, the form will evolve to become more elegant, no doubt. But the initial implementation of the engineering of this aircraft ensures that it does what it is supposed to do.
Let us also look at the evolution of Starship design. When I look at the original Enterprise's Constitution-class design of the TOS era, and compare it to the refit design introduced in TMP, I think the original design looks stupid. The movie-era design is way more sleek and cool. The Galaxy Class was butt-ugly as far as I am concerned. But I got used to it. I love the Sovereign-class design. And the Odyssey-class is awesome as well. If you compare the TOS-era Constitution to the Odyssey, while there is a general theme to they look, with a saucer section raised above the secondary hull and two nacelles extended on back-end struts, the forms differ like night and day, accommodating their function.
The new Tier-6 Starfleet ship, while arguably butt-ugly (I think it is ugly, too), clearly represents a change in core technology, like the stealth bomber of our day, and I like the idea of function-over-form to demonstrate a first step in brand new technological evolution. It's a gritty, risky choice Cryptic made to go this way, but there is a logic to it that cannot be denied. Look at the first automobiles and compare them to what we have now. They were not aerodynamic. They were essentially boxes with seats, a steering wheel and wheels to roll on. While that core principle still remains, the automobile designs of today are totally different.
So I say we just roll with it.
Now to address the part about upgradability of Tier-5 ships to Tier-6. On this point, I will agree that Cryptic needs to build a road to 100% upgradability for all Tier 5 and 5.5 ships. And you know, I don't even care if that road involves a grindfest akin to Starbase/embassy/Mine/Spire progression. They could add Utopia Planitia as a permanent location, and let all upgrade work proceed from there. Of course, this should require Cryptic to produce some minor but noticeable aesthetic changes to the finished ships. At the very least a new tier-6 skin that would reflect the new Tier-6 core design's hull materials. While undergoing a refit project, the ship in question would be unavailable. There would be multiple projects. and the ship could be taken out when those projects are completed.
Furthermore, I think it is time for a new type of project progression mechanic: The PUBLIC PROJECT. Let it take a massive amount of a wide variety of resources. But instead of locking it behind a fleet wall (fleet holdings), or something only an individual can do (reputation), let it be open to all. If I am an Engineering Captain and put my Tier 5 into a drydock at Utopia Planitia, I can beam over to the main station and access a Refit console and work on it there, or if I just visit the facility with no need to actually upgrade my own ship, I can see a list of ships docked for refit, I can select one of them and contribute resources. For the sake of personal rewards, the system could track how much I have contribueted overall, and award milestone incentives. But we've got too many ways players are locked away from each other in terms of progression. We need more ways for players to work together, or at the very lease help each other advance... And having a division-specific activity to do it would mean that there is more than one reason to play that division, other than the skillset that comes with it.
Research and development facilities could do something for Science division players, and something else for Tactical officers as well. Maybe upgrading the sensors and science systems for a Tier-5 ship would be a role for the Science Division, and the tactical division could be involved in the refit process for offensive and defensive systems. Different players would have Different roles, but all equally important in the total process. And because the system would be modeled after the holding/reputation progression systems, the same sort of indirect monetization could exist. But this time, the end result is something tangible to all rather than just the individuals or fleets.
Fleet ships requiring a refit should be refit at a fleet Starbase, as long as that Starbase has its shipyard at max tier. That will create a use for Starbases as we move into the Delta Rising era.
We needs to stop complaining about everything. Especially when there are clear instances where the things they are implementing are in fact things which have been asked for and there's really no good reason why they shouldn't be implemented. New ranks and new ship Tiers have been asked for. We're getting them. And that is the biggest change coming with Delta Rising. Mission content, I don't expect will be any more to write home about than what we've seen thus far in that department. It won't be enough to satisfy the need for it, and once blown through, the effects of Whatnow Syndrome will be present once more. The danger is that there is no Rank in Starfleet higher than Fleet Admiral which can be held by multiple individuals. The highest rank is Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet (Established in Star Trek VI) who answers directly to the President of the Federation. So the question is where do we go from Fleet Admiral?
I am one of those people who believe that Rank should never have been directly connected to Level. Oh sure, there should have been some prerequisites in there to make sure that a Level 1 player could never be an Admiral. In fact, I believe that the Admiralty should have its own minigame associated with it, like an advanced version of the DOff system that involves ships and installations as well as personnel. But the game is what it is, and there is no indication that it will ever be anything that it is not already. We've had several seasons of the same grindfest progression TRIBBLE that ultimately means nothing in terms of the MMO environment that exists. The game treats everyone as if they are the only ones playing rather than a collective of players. We really need more elements that include everyone rather than sequestering them away behind some sort of artificial barrier.
This can still be done without breaking the current mold Cryptic has adopted for their progression mechanics. I am not going to sit here and dictate what I think they ought to do. I've done that elsewhere, and ultimately they are going to do what they will do, regardless of what I think. It doesn't stop me from hoping for stuff.
As much as I want the game to become more like Star Trek from a quantitative perspective, I also want to see its gameplay actually become meaningful, where what I do can expand beyond my own gameplay experience. Being able to establish a colony on a planet and manage it as an Admiral, and have the colony produce resources that everyone needs, and the ability to distribute it accordingly would be a way this could be achieved. I could establish trade contacts with people regardless of their (or my) status or membership in a fleet. And this colonization mechanic could be the Phase III of a new exploration aspect that could use a form of procedural generation to create new sector blocks that expand ever outward from the core systems of the Delta Quadrant.
Anyway, that is my take on the situation currently looming on the horizon. Some will agree and others won't. I'm not going to argue the point. I am back in my "debating the issue gets my stomach acids churning unnecessarily" stage, so I am not going to let a game I don't even spend any money on have that much influence on my physical well-being. I am interested in what people think. I'm just not going to take the bait tossed out by those seeking a confrontation.
Live long and Prosper \\//,
Ever since people reached Vice Admiral, many have asked how long it would be before they could actually play as a full admiral. Now we are about to be able to. And with a new Rank added to our character advancement and with all previous ranks having a ship tier associated with it, it is only logical to have a new ship Tier. So what if it makes the older ships obsolete in their default status? It's called vertical progression. We got used to it for Tiers 1-5. We need to just accept that Tier 6 is going to let us progress a little more vertically.
I also remember a lot of people commenting on how Cryptic needs to design new starships for this game for the whole 25th-century angle. Now that they are doing this, there's all this whining about how it looks. Come ON, people. The new Starfleet design is different, yes. But we are dealing with rechnological advancements that come with the unlocking of the knowledge associated with the Dyson Spheres, technology that far outstrips that of any known civilization in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants in this era. It stands to reason that with that new technology, changes to aesthetic design may be necessary to accommodate the new tech.
For a real world example of technology having an effect on aesthetics, look at the stealth bomber. Aesthetically, it is completely different from any other aircraft. But its form accommodates its function. Going forward, the form will evolve to become more elegant, no doubt. But the initial implementation of the engineering of this aircraft ensures that it does what it is supposed to do.
Let us also look at the evolution of Starship design. When I look at the original Enterprise's Constitution-class design of the TOS era, and compare it to the refit design introduced in TMP, I think the original design looks stupid. The movie-era design is way more sleek and cool. The Galaxy Class was butt-ugly as far as I am concerned. But I got used to it. I love the Sovereign-class design. And the Odyssey-class is awesome as well. If you compare the TOS-era Constitution to the Odyssey, while there is a general theme to they look, with a saucer section raised above the secondary hull and two nacelles extended on back-end struts, the forms differ like night and day, accommodating their function.
The new Tier-6 Starfleet ship, while arguably butt-ugly (I think it is ugly, too), clearly represents a change in core technology, like the stealth bomber of our day, and I like the idea of function-over-form to demonstrate a first step in brand new technological evolution. It's a gritty, risky choice Cryptic made to go this way, but there is a logic to it that cannot be denied. Look at the first automobiles and compare them to what we have now. They were not aerodynamic. They were essentially boxes with seats, a steering wheel and wheels to roll on. While that core principle still remains, the automobile designs of today are totally different.
So I say we just roll with it.
Now to address the part about upgradability of Tier-5 ships to Tier-6. On this point, I will agree that Cryptic needs to build a road to 100% upgradability for all Tier 5 and 5.5 ships. And you know, I don't even care if that road involves a grindfest akin to Starbase/embassy/Mine/Spire progression. They could add Utopia Planitia as a permanent location, and let all upgrade work proceed from there. Of course, this should require Cryptic to produce some minor but noticeable aesthetic changes to the finished ships. At the very least a new tier-6 skin that would reflect the new Tier-6 core design's hull materials. While undergoing a refit project, the ship in question would be unavailable. There would be multiple projects. and the ship could be taken out when those projects are completed.
Furthermore, I think it is time for a new type of project progression mechanic: The PUBLIC PROJECT. Let it take a massive amount of a wide variety of resources. But instead of locking it behind a fleet wall (fleet holdings), or something only an individual can do (reputation), let it be open to all. If I am an Engineering Captain and put my Tier 5 into a drydock at Utopia Planitia, I can beam over to the main station and access a Refit console and work on it there, or if I just visit the facility with no need to actually upgrade my own ship, I can see a list of ships docked for refit, I can select one of them and contribute resources. For the sake of personal rewards, the system could track how much I have contribueted overall, and award milestone incentives. But we've got too many ways players are locked away from each other in terms of progression. We need more ways for players to work together, or at the very lease help each other advance... And having a division-specific activity to do it would mean that there is more than one reason to play that division, other than the skillset that comes with it.
Research and development facilities could do something for Science division players, and something else for Tactical officers as well. Maybe upgrading the sensors and science systems for a Tier-5 ship would be a role for the Science Division, and the tactical division could be involved in the refit process for offensive and defensive systems. Different players would have Different roles, but all equally important in the total process. And because the system would be modeled after the holding/reputation progression systems, the same sort of indirect monetization could exist. But this time, the end result is something tangible to all rather than just the individuals or fleets.
Fleet ships requiring a refit should be refit at a fleet Starbase, as long as that Starbase has its shipyard at max tier. That will create a use for Starbases as we move into the Delta Rising era.
We needs to stop complaining about everything. Especially when there are clear instances where the things they are implementing are in fact things which have been asked for and there's really no good reason why they shouldn't be implemented. New ranks and new ship Tiers have been asked for. We're getting them. And that is the biggest change coming with Delta Rising. Mission content, I don't expect will be any more to write home about than what we've seen thus far in that department. It won't be enough to satisfy the need for it, and once blown through, the effects of Whatnow Syndrome will be present once more. The danger is that there is no Rank in Starfleet higher than Fleet Admiral which can be held by multiple individuals. The highest rank is Commander-in-Chief of Starfleet (Established in Star Trek VI) who answers directly to the President of the Federation. So the question is where do we go from Fleet Admiral?
I am one of those people who believe that Rank should never have been directly connected to Level. Oh sure, there should have been some prerequisites in there to make sure that a Level 1 player could never be an Admiral. In fact, I believe that the Admiralty should have its own minigame associated with it, like an advanced version of the DOff system that involves ships and installations as well as personnel. But the game is what it is, and there is no indication that it will ever be anything that it is not already. We've had several seasons of the same grindfest progression TRIBBLE that ultimately means nothing in terms of the MMO environment that exists. The game treats everyone as if they are the only ones playing rather than a collective of players. We really need more elements that include everyone rather than sequestering them away behind some sort of artificial barrier.
This can still be done without breaking the current mold Cryptic has adopted for their progression mechanics. I am not going to sit here and dictate what I think they ought to do. I've done that elsewhere, and ultimately they are going to do what they will do, regardless of what I think. It doesn't stop me from hoping for stuff.
As much as I want the game to become more like Star Trek from a quantitative perspective, I also want to see its gameplay actually become meaningful, where what I do can expand beyond my own gameplay experience. Being able to establish a colony on a planet and manage it as an Admiral, and have the colony produce resources that everyone needs, and the ability to distribute it accordingly would be a way this could be achieved. I could establish trade contacts with people regardless of their (or my) status or membership in a fleet. And this colonization mechanic could be the Phase III of a new exploration aspect that could use a form of procedural generation to create new sector blocks that expand ever outward from the core systems of the Delta Quadrant.
Anyway, that is my take on the situation currently looming on the horizon. Some will agree and others won't. I'm not going to argue the point. I am back in my "debating the issue gets my stomach acids churning unnecessarily" stage, so I am not going to let a game I don't even spend any money on have that much influence on my physical well-being. I am interested in what people think. I'm just not going to take the bait tossed out by those seeking a confrontation.
Live long and Prosper \\//,
"There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties
if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle."
-Ambassador Samuel J. Stone
if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle."
-Ambassador Samuel J. Stone
Post edited by sirsitsalot on
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Comments
I think I agree with you, but ain't nobody got time to read all that.
As a member of a small fleet, hell no. A simple shipyard of any tier will do.
RED ALERT all hands to battle stations.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I also agree that its handling of the upgrades is lazy and moneygrubby, better solutions were possible but they want a backup income in case people go all meh on the new ships.
Lets remember that aesthetics do play a part.
And they could not just declare our current ships obsolete either, considering what message that would send. I think noone expected sto to remain viable and thats why they tried milking it by giving out all those ships that should not really be here. 8472 Ships? Really?
But hey, sto isnt dead. The playerbase is still here. Thats why we got the new story arcs in the first place.
So they are caught between the fckall of the past and the **** this is working out fine.
I consider the first sto years the seasons of suck that anything star trek has gone through.
I consider the first sto years the seasons of suck that anything star trek has gone through.[/QUOTE]
To be fair RE: the above, the original STAR TREK series (1966-1969; aka TOS in some fan circles) was the reverse (IE - the first two seasons were WAY better than it's third season.):D
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Like I said, since I am a LTS, this doesn't impact me as much, but it still makes me ANGRY. Threatening to uninstall gets me nowhere, because they already HAVE my money. But they're not getting any more. Not ONE. RED. CENT. I'll just keep hoarding my monthly Zen stipend until I do get the upgrades for free.
no dil or anything else involved just points gained in the delta quadrant, no points need be donated to fill the project just points earned, the more points you earn the quicker you get to upgrade.
one catch is only points earned while using the t5 ship go to upgrade that ship.
you could upgrade one ship at a time or rotate through the ships earning points for each ship towards its upgrade.
cryptic are always saying they want to get us playing, what better way to get us playing then getting people to play to upgrade all their t5 ships.
sadly I fear the stage is set and nothing we say will make a difference.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I think it's absolute TRIBBLE that people assume that they will HAVE to upgrade, they won't. Or that they're entitled to a free upgrade or an upgrade of any kind since no other tier of ship has ever had one.
If you want a buff to your existing ship, upgrade it. If you don't don't. You will be able to use your existing ship either way. If you HAVE to HAVE more power and a better ship to keep up with the 14 yr olds in PvP, then wait until a T6 ship is released that you like.
I really do not see the problem people are having with a VOLUNTARY expenditure. All in the name of keeping up with their neighbors.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
I am just speechless that a (supposed) adult would use "peer pressure" as an excuse in a VIDEO GAME and do so with a straight face.
I mean seriously? My 16 yr old, maybe, grown adult? Um,... I think I should just stop now,...
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
The amount of money required to continually upgrade and move along in this game, as their model has fully taken shape, isn't worth it to me because the content is far too thin.
If the prices were cheaper, I'd be ok with continually spending on it since the content is as shallow as it is.
Or if the content they produced were deeper and engaging, I'd feel the price was worth it.
As is, there's too much shallow content, and the new shinies are too expensive. (For those prepared to say it can all be had without spending any real money, the resource you spend in that scenario is time and that's far more valuable than money for quite a few people so the point stands, the resource cost is too high for what you get).
So understand, the model's basic framework is fine to me. Spend resources, get content.
The variable that are currently in place are not satisfying to me.
Others' mileage may vary.
1. support the game, and
2. have the best ships available (although possibly not in that order)
Now, with DR on the horizon, we are to be content with "Don't worry, you'll still be competitive, you're just not the best anymore. You're still T5, just not T5U or T6."
Top of the line now becomes middle of the road in DR unless you pay MORE real money, or, in my case, hoard Zen from my monthly stipend. Thank the Great Bird of the Galaxy that I bought my LTS on sale.
Exactly This.
You know what? You're absolutely right. I bought wholeheartedly into this, just at a different stage of the game. Do you suppose that this is all a symptom of power creep, and not what most (including me) are perceiving as a cash grab?
why should they carry you if your not even going to try to bring in what you need to play the content .
to be honest maybe Cryptic should bring back taking shuttles into elite content with DR .
The problem is when you sell something it has to be better then what people already have or they will not buy it. You are less likely to buy a T5 Excelsior if it is only as good as your current T5 Sovereign - and this stretches all the way through into Fleet and T5U/T6 ships. Stats matter. If they did not matter people would not have 500 page Galaxy Class threads. The new ships have to be better then what you already have or else few will buy them. Thus you get power creep.
I would hazard a guess that 80+% of Cryptic's income comes from ship sales - C-Store, Lobi Store, and Lockbox Keys. They really cannot give that up. So they need to keep the ship-mill pumping things out to keep the lights on. I would rather pay for Content and get less ships - but I think I am in the minority there. But I would rather pay $30.00 for Delta Rising then $30.00 for a ship I really do not want. So far that is not going to happen, though, so ships are what Cryptic needs to make.
But at least they are not forcing us to buy the ships. They are not making the new Content so difficult that the only way to do it is with a T5U or T6 ship. Because most other MMOs do not go that route when they do level cap increases. It is expected that you will need to new cool raid gear from Expansion Pack 1 in order to do the new cool missions in Expansion Pack 2. So from that standpoint I do not see this as a cash grab. I see this as Cryptic just keeping the ship-mill running.
If the game creates T6 Content at some point then you have an issue, but as of right now the Delta Rising Content is designed to be played with existing T5 ships.
Still a case of trying to figure out the gist of this part from the T5-U blog...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7002133-tier-5-starship-upgrades
First line there says "and most queues" which tells us there will be queues that do require T6/T5-U ships. The second line says that "new level 60 content" will not require a T6/T5-U ship. So, that lends itself to saying there will be versions of current queues that require T6/T5-U...no?
If I had hair to pull out (well, I guess I've got the hair coming out my ears), I'd be pulling it out reading some of the cryptic things Cryptic has been saying...
The idea of a resource sink in which my ship is locked for protracted periods of time - NO. Not only no but HELL NO. This damn game is cram full of time sinks and dill sinks and every manner of stumbling block imaginable - now with the added feature of "Pay CASH to finish now" option.
If it's a time gate make it FREE
If it's instant, require a modest quantity of commonly available resources (EC, Dil, common research mats or common research components from all research trees that can be made at research level zero).
We have to keep realistic here, they've commited alot of resources to this new system upgrade system and they need for it to generate income, they can't make it all free, it cost PWE and Cryptic money for create the Ship Mastery system, the rest of the elements of the upgrade system, the 50 to 60 level specialization trees, not to mention the actual upcoming content, any hardware upgrades to the servers, ect... none of this is free. And its costs alot. PWE expects a return on its investment.
So is it a cash grab? Yes, because it has to be. But at least my way with bundles for upgrading its more fair and balanced.