test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Why does STO PvP Suckzors so bad?
tenacius2200
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Plz explain
Post edited by tenacius2200 on
0
Comments
Still, its better than Escorts Online.
So, to say it was way worse in the past makes it OK today...
that's lame
I'm asking seriously and not giving anyone a hard time.
What is it your having an issue with. There are plenty of powerful things around right now and they all have hard counters. To be honest I think the game is more balanced then it has been... well... ever. Oddly
I wouldn't say it's more balanced... But it has more options and potential for a wider variety of teams. What's lacking, is those teams willing to rough it.
Just my opinion.
Regardless, I hope more effort is put toward PVP. It's sad to see it as it is now.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Only reciently have we seen a small dripping faucent from the Resources towards PVP being:
Shuttle PVP
Fake Death Item console
F/KDF shared Queues
Currently the game is Tac/Sci online.
IF you like Engineers.. your stuck in a Healer/FAW role with the changes to Beam Overload and Earlier changes to Power System drains. (Made Nadion inversion and EPS useless)
Aux to Bat + tech Doffs Ruined the Global cool down system So that you can have all Powers at Global cool down by running 2x A2B + 3 Tech doffs and sacrificing Aux Batteries to fuel your Aux based powers during Aux drains.
Shield Drain/Damage Resists are so high CPB and Tachyon Beam are useless for their main purpose.
The amount of FAW has ruined KDF Carrier Siphon Builds. (Probably not a bad thing..)
The amount of FAW is forcing some players to run FBP.
Did I mention there's alot of FAW?
Auto Crits on Beam overload Favors Tacs + Super high CritD builds for Vapers
Romulans are Vaper kings afaik 2nd to only Minimax.. fearz his Spike!
Current Meta is Super Spike vs heal. (Been like this for a while now, but made worse with Romuals introduced, only increased thanks to KDF/Fed Shared queue combine)
Or Faw vs Faw. With Faw vs Faw Teams lasting HOURS..
The Grind for Fleet/Rep Gear or Powers in order to top end PVP
The Grind to buy C-store/Lockbox/Lobi store Gear/Ships to be competitive in some forms.
Seemingly Declining interest in PVP unless Fleet vs Fleet Drama occures.
Lack of PVP avaliable for Fleet vs Fleet in Fleet System
No ability to Conquer/Liberate Planets/Systems Via PVP
No True PVP earned Shinies/Gear/ships
New Crafting System Traits becoming Required for some super sci damage builds slowly trickling out.
Oh I'm sorry.. was that too many reasons? I'm sure I missed a bunch.. And probably a few are personal to me.. :rolleyes:
Edit: Oh yes.. forgot to add in trolls getting even trollier..in an attempt to ruin PVP for others. Forgot about that.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
That rep has been perpetuated by:
1.) Constant bad mouthing Cryptic for abandoning it (PvP), while;
2.) Demanding changes to new gear because it unbalances the PvP status quo, while;
3.) PvE players feel they get the short end of the stick from 6%* of the playerbase, who in turn;
4.) Take pleasure in vaping anyone trying to get a handle on PvP, while laughing.
Did I miss anything?
Yes, there might be counters to everything. But whereas in the early days of the game it was enough to spend a few merits and energy credits to set up that counter build, it's now often several weeks and hundreds of dollars away. Yes, one can spend other people's money via the Dil/Zen exchange or by buying lockbox stuff via the exchange if one has tons of EC, but what used to be skill-gated is now time- and ressource-gated.
You have a great idea for an experimental PVP team setup that may or may not be the next big thing? Good for you, but unless you and your friends already have every relevant item in the game, it's all too often way too expensive to actually implement that build just for testing purposes and thus it will never see the light of day.
Perhaps that does sum it up best. I do find the game more balanced then it ever has been honestly (in previous seasons the stuff that was broken was extremely broken and often there really was no viable counters)... you are 100% right though. The most viable build options are all extremely costly setups. Some of the counter builds are semi inexpensive as in one doff to give you 100% a2d up time. Still its not free although you can use a blue version of that doff and still have 100% uptime. Anyway examples aside your point is valid. Which is I think mostly where the issue lies for Cryptic and PvP in STO.
All the junk cancels the other junk out... but the cost of the junk to cancel the other guys junk is pretty, Junky I guess.
PS... have no fear though... Soon people can go and purchase T6 ship to cancel the effect of my own T6. The arms race continues. He with the largest bank roll or the largest farm roll wins. lol
Certainly.
You see, the players of one faction were thoroughly ventilating the hulls of the other faction.
Of course, that was impossible because the faction that was getting pwned oh so bad were the supposed heroes of Star Trek.
Butts were hurt.
Kids whined.
Many threads of "ZOMFG teh Klingon's x is so OP please nerf!!" were created.
The tears that flowed were so very sweet.
According to ancient scrolls discovered on the cannibalized planet of N'Vak, certain Devs could no longer stand the morning whine that greeted them so certain changes were made to bring "balance" to the Force...errr I mean PvP.
If you think that meant making KDF ships on par with fed ships, shame on you and get off the drugs.
Oh, you're so silly.
What they did was nerf the abilities that the victimized faction were too lazy to defend against, such as the Beam Overload Double Tap.
Nerf after nerf was implemented.
The preciouses, once faction-only, were given to the other faction just to make sure the lesson was learned.
After the nerfing was done and everyone was firing rainbows and neon kisses at each other, PvP was formally declared DEAD.
fin.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
95% of all QQ comes from The arena or C&H Que.. which until recently had been 95% FvF since the inception of FvF.
The mechanics are the mechanics... doesn't matter whom is shooting at whom. In most cases PvPers with even a small amount of XP under there belt are building toward proper PvP builds.
What has happened over the last 4 years is the gaps between people that know what they are doing and new people have gotten wider and wider. They have gotten harder to cross thanks to Cryptic power creeping the heck out of things and as Mancom has pointed out... making it very expensive to play the meta game.
Things against new players even holding there own are as follows;
1) Knowing which ship to fly... because any ship works in PvE land... in PvP land there are Best choice and ok choice ships. 80% of the rest of the options are bad.
2) Weapon selection. Even people that do really well in PvE are not prepared for 100+ defense. Weapons that own borg will NOT own a zooming escort or a healer with 80k hull and HPS 10x higher then the average PvE players DPS.
3) Gear Selection. Again anything works in PvE land. In PvP land PvP players know which sets to run, which fleet cores are good opitons. in which builds and often the costs of them is high enough when a new player is given solid advice they are often days or weeks from switching to the advised gear.
4) Boff selection. We laugh often at people with no tac team or only one... or no EPTS. Seriously though you don't need them for PvE. So why would a new player assume they needed them for PvP.
5) Doff selection. Much like boff selection there are things that are just not needed in PvE that are very good options for PvP. Why would some one only doing PvE ever buy a Beam overload Pen doff ? Even something like the Antimatter a2d doff isn't required for any pve missions. (on that note there is no need for A2D at all in pve)
6) Reputation choices. I say choices because most PvE people do have there rep completed. However much like the doffs... who needs 5% more shield pen in PvE ? PvE players often have setups that we would think stupid frankly. However they likely get 1k DPS extra in Infected with the ones they chose. lol
7) Buff watching. No one that has played STO PvE for 4 years is even remotely ready to watch an opponents buff bar. Even experienced PvP players have a hard time watching a targets buffs. Keeping track of a teams buffs ? Only the best among us can claim to be able to track more then a few players at once. Even then they know which buffs are important to watch. New players are used to seeing ZERO buffs on there NPC targets... or at most one which they often don't care about anyway.
8) Situational awareness again new players simply don't have this yet. (it comes with XP... not having it at first just adds to the confusion)
9) Cryptics mechanics... the WTF factor. There are MULTIPLE things that can one shot kill you in STO. Most of them are random procs... or small strings of them. This game is bad for that. Even long time players are constantly rolling back there log to see what got them. New players are getting hit with things they have never even heard of. So the WTF factor is high.
10) Counters.... This one is simple. NPCS in STO don't buff up much. When they do buff they have unique buffs most of the time that don't translate to STO pvp. Ask any one that has played PVE only since beta what counters a Sub nuke. Most won't know. Never mind VMs Scrambles Gravity wells TBRs TDF WarpP Tractors + all the gear set and uni consoles that they have never had fired on them (or rarely anyway)... You can't counter things at the right times if you don't even know how.
There those are my TOP 10 reasons. Why new players get super frustrated almost instantly with PvP when they try it out. It has nothing to do with Role Playing folks in Antiquated Birds of Prey.
Right now, an NPC ship is lucky to have 5 abilities and 2 fore, 2 aft weapons in total! The only advantage they have is masses of hit points, and hit points aren't all that great. Essential to have yeah, but once they are gone they are gone, and nearly all NPCs don't have any way to heal themselves.
A few examples that highlight the issue:
Take a JHAS - in PvP, it is pretty much top dog of escorts. It has challengers yes, but it is still definitely brilliant. An NPC JHAS however, barely is any better than a player's T1 ship.
Take KDF BoPs - in PvP, a well built and flown BoP will be able to withstand 4+ average Feds at Ker'rat. An NPC BoP is usually down before you even knew it was there.
Take an NPC Fed Cruiser - waste of time, even the turrets fore, mines aft, beam Tac skill using lol-boats out DPS NPC Fed Cruisers. In our hands it is an entirely different story.
Take a Scimitar - in our hands, it is OP. NPC Scims are so weak that said lol-boats ^ are better.
If PvE is rebalanced to be fair to these poor NPCs, we could have normal average players actually having meaningful mechanics knowledge. Once the rage stops.
sure there's plenty of bad eggs. way to many clicky consoles ether 1 shoting you or rendering you invincible or letting you escape. up to 4 abilities in each tac, eng and sci that are WORTHLESS, if they removed them one day no one would notice. sci ship creep is easily twice that of escort and cruiser creep, because science in pve sucks so they keep super boosting sci ships releases as if that does anything to help the problem. the only way to make sci ships worth a TRIBBLE in pve is npcs that buff and heal exactly like player ships.
anyway, the snoopers and the particle stackers are basically exploiting, they have no counters and add grave imbalance were every they propagate. there's no counter other then throwing even more sci back at them. its never been more true that the more sci you have, the more likely your team is to wining. yet people still almost exclusivly complain about things relating to tactical, AtB especially. the TRIBBLE cloud of pve logic is thicker then ever.
season 8 pvp was the best hands down, its about like now only without the zindi escort and particles weren't out of control yet. its now less then it was, and the expansion looks to double down on all the extremes that are the problem in pvp these days.
This isn't really true. They simply play to the weaknesses of most peoples builds. Neither are cheating in anyway. The snooping... yes there is a stupid fed console that lets them see way more for to long... still the buff is easy to notice... and if you simply have to have a plan to be able to decloak and survive for 30s. If you can't do that you have a terrible build for that meta... and you have been hard countered in your week defense vape build.
As for the pgen hax... there is NOTHING a sci with high crit dmg sci skills can throw at you that you can't 100% hard counter 100% of the time. The only time you won't be able to counter it is when you get nuked. Team work in such a case is the way to go. (is that not the way its always been though.... carry a sci team for pugging and communicate when your teamed) The only people that would have a hard time countering things like FBP / TBR / GW would be well.... ya A2B boats. FAWing witih FBP around is a bad idea.... A2Bing instead of A2Ding with TBR around is also a bad idea.
I know you will say 80% of the ships require in your opinion A2B to be viable. Well that is case in point why I stated IMO 80% of the ship choices you can make are plain bad for pvp. Having said that Any ship that can run A2B x 2... can also run A2B + A2D... and be 100% immune to TBR and GW... and if you run the right doffs have 3-7 Consoles of Hull resist up while only using 1-2 actual armour consoles. Sure your skills may be 85% of global instead of at global... but this is PvP where building for not PvE Dps races. 85% is very viable... and having 100% uptime on a2d and an overlap period where your resists are super boosted isn't so bad.
only to have add it (stacks with no.9 i guess
11) building skilltree.... not enough knowledge from pve/levelling processes in whole regarding ingame-mechanics and skill/ability/gear/passives synergies.
He gets it. Someone give this man a medal.
Yeah, too many players going from zero to 180,900 miles per hour. Remove Attack pattern omega from the game and make emergency power to engines duration 6 seconds. I'ts like the game supports cowards or something.
Good point I should have had that in my top ten some where. I also didn't mention personal traits. I should have tacked that on to my rep traits points. Same things with personal traits, people often really don't understand what they should have slotted for pvp.
It is very possibly to happily play PvE and do extremely well and never realize the game even has a shield resistance mechanic or a defense mechanic. The hull resist I think most long time PvE people get because of skills like beta. Do they understand shield resistance though... or regen... or hull repair. Do they know how to spec to resist drains... or scrambles... or disables... or holds. I mean if all i ever did was pve would I honestly spec points in sub repair or damp or heck even sensors. Not likely.
I guess with new ship traits coming its going to get even more complicated... best hope there is that there isn't so many traits that are terrible in PvP but great in PvE. (of course after a few more lockboxes that will end up being the case)
I half agree with you... there is to much of everything in the game. Reduce ALL Eptx effects to 6s. Add a DR formula to shield resists to while there at it.... Its like the game supports turtles or something. lol
I'm sorry I didn't read past that, but...
IT WAS FREAKING EPIC WIN!!!!!!!
Lol, I spit soda out all over the place. I need to clean it up, but I just needed to say that was awesome.
FBP or FAW itself isn't really the problem, the problem is the general knowledge of the PVP playerbase.
People run a FAW/A2b build because it's just whats popular right now, so the knowledge how to build and setup up boats with these skills virals among the players. These builds will in most situations overwhelm "the avarage PVP'er". So the easyest counter to this is FBP. People does not have either the knowledge or maybe the time to develop another counter to this, so it results in a huge FAW vs FBP clash.
The irony is that atleast in my opinion, neither of these skills would make any difference if you are facing an oponent that really knows what their doing. If you look at the best of the best 5 man teams, or the best of the best 1 v 1 players, i would bet that very few runs these skills the way they are used now.
Having a global cooldown on everything also is really just the "easy way to do it". I'm not saying that they cant be effective, but there are way better builds out there. To use a boat with A2Bx2 with 3 Technicians, you sacrifice alot of synergy potential many builds has, if you really look into it. I'm not against anyone using A2B, I use it myself, but only one copy, because it compliments the build i have now quite nicely, also helps to synergize some of my other cycles. But if i had 2 copies of A2B, it would ruin my build. Also if i put a FAW on my build, it would make the purpose of my build go away. FBP is out of the question, because it would require me to sacrifice even more of the synergy i have setup...
Thing is, just because its easy, and somewhat effective, it doesnt mean that A2B, FBP, or FAW is gamebreaking... its just the current meta, and they are all easilly countered. And if you dont believe me, ask some of the TOP PVP'ers in the game, they will all tell you the same thing.
That is the impulse cell console and the evasives every 20 seconds. And now with the CE doff it will be worst.....
fast paced combat is more fun. The problem is that the UI lag ruins everything. If this is too fast for you, try chess.
Pvp is unpopular cause its bad balanced and p2w (or p2p if you want..), also cause this game player base is casual, and pvp is competitive.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
so is better that a ship can be healer and escort at the same time ?
ran out of borgs or you post just for the sake of posting?
Edit - Don't feed troll.
Item-based gameplay sucks and STO is 100% gear based. Games that are skill-based, everybody has the same gear and people do not have ~UR Mk XII Fleet TRIBBLE with extra procs, they do not have Plasmonic Leech console with a 35 million EC entry fee. That is just the start of it. Some ships are just miles ahead of the 2nd best ships in their class. Some traits are absurdly OP, just checked and Inspirational Leader is 60 million EC right now. Since most of this stuff is about stacking incrementalism, 1% plus 2% plus 1%, it basically blocks out anybody that doesnt have a fully-developed build that gets you close enough for team-play to overcome single advantages. Item-based gaming is just an awful precept.
Limitless stacking is another huge systemic flaw. If you want to have a points-based system, you need to limit the maximum value someway so that balance can be found at the end. Diminishing returns on things like skill points, damage, speed, etc. Then your tac bugship has a starting advantage in its natural area, but other ships in the class can be built to a matching level, and balance found. STO says, your bugship will always be fastest most agile if you want it to be.
Lack of negative off-sets to buffs also contributes to the failure here. What if ResA/ResB provided stacking resist to special types but also reduced resists to opposing energy types? That is where balance lies.
Absence of speed/power differential (typically based on displacement). Escorts are viable beam tanks, and some cruisers are viable cannon attack ships. There is no sense of anything really, except that some ships are locked into their role by hard-design that makes them TRIBBLE (eg, all Fed cruisers except Avenger). Beams should be different from cannons, not interchangeable, somehting like beams have more range and more accuracy but require much more power to fire, and then scale subsystem power levels by ship volume, so that small ships cannot power more than 1-2 beams. Then cruisers have a role as area-denial, escorts have a role as attack ships, they can step outside their role but will not be as good as the other side. STO just has no clue on this and so we have AtB DEM escorts running around making cruisers irrelevant to anything.
If you want to put all of that under a single banner, the problem is cryptic sells powercreep for short-term $$ gains and has completely ruined the end-game as a result. Now they are addicted to the sugar rush and cant stop. They are working hard to test the bottom on this stuff.
Haves, have the best gear, ships, experience, friends and teams
Have nots, do not have any or few of
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
The Tactical officer, can do any role in a ship and be effective while also doing damage. They can heal/Damage.. They can Debuff/damage.. And of course if they focus on damage, they will excell at it.
The Science officer, can do any role in a ship and be effective while also debuffing. They can Heal/Debuff/Damage.. They can Debuff well/damage, and if they need to they can use their debuffs to deal damage almost as well as a Tac.. but not to the extremes of a Tac. The Sci can also survive very well while Debuffing, Healing, or Damaging.
The Engineer how ever... While Yes it can heal/Debuff.. Its ability to do damage has been mititaged to, what feels like, the same builds yet the advantages of the Engineer, to be able to survive while etiher Debuffing, Healing, or Dealing damage is all it seems like it has. The Engineer's "Teeth" have been removed in some ways. So its ability to damage is on the lowest end of the spectrum if compared to the Sci and the Tac.
Engineers obviously make better healers since their Miracle Worker, Rotate Shield Frequencies, and even their Engineering Fleet (Especially if Doffed) gives them some much needed surviviability in order to use heals on other team mates.
Their Ability to survive, again, gives them the ability to deal out debuffs if in the right build/role. Though Finding the right Debuff build as an Engineer can be tricky since Engineer powers don't lend to very many of those powers very well, except perhaps to Aux Related powers, but even those have already been watered down in some ways..
The Engineer CAN do damage, but it requires an extremely focused build..one that the Tac or Sci can do better. And have the better tools to do it.
IF they ever found a way to better introduce Pressure damage builds into STO (Not that there isn't a way to do it.. there are.. but they are difficult to really make work in a PVP Team setting) The Engineer might become more viable. Originally, an Engineer could use its Nadion Inversion and EPS to mitigate Energy Drains, Energy power transfers, and even increase the damage of another person by giving EPS away. Now, this can be done with other means..
Energy Siphon 3 can simulate EPS. The Console that gives Max to all energy settings every 3 minutes is better. Then there are the Doffs that add more power to each Emergency Power as used. Aux 2 Bat, especially in A2B builds, covers EPS also..
The Removal of Beam Overload's Energy drain was the last power an Engineer could use effectively with Nadion out side of Fire at Will. And originally an Engineer was best at keeping energy Drain down. Yet again with the current tools avaliable, even DEM can become a poor man's Nadion. Not to mention the new Spire cores further Push at an Engineer's abilities when compared to Tacs and Sci.
So, in short, and at least to me, originally the Tac, the Sci, and the Engi each had a more equal role, yet one that any of those three could perform.
Lately, the Engineer's uniqueness has been stripped from it to the point where you won't bother taking an Engineer into a team setting when one more Tac or one more Sci will out perform that Engineer because of those unique effects having been stripped away.
And to me.. that makes PVP Suck even more..because it removes a choice on what to play. At least in space.
And also, lets not forget that in PVP the following seems to be the end all be all list of what matters:
1: Damage
2: Heals
3: Debuffs
4: Survivability
And while 2-4 are interchangable, the most important thing is still being able to also contribute damage. And that is something that the Sci and Tac do, that the Engineer no longer seems as capable of doing in the same way..
So here is to the Engineer.. The profession that, while useful, no longer is required to PVP in space. May be Sci and Tac overloards take pity and bury the corpse with honor thanks to the severe wounds that have been inflicted before death.. Which is irony.. that the Engineer couldn't survive the Meta..since it should be the profession that can survive the best.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku