I'm sorry that it came off offensively, that was certainly not our intent in any way. Our reaction to that specific comment was simply our surprise at the content as not all of us had read each piece of feedback prior to recording that segment. I'm not sure why you would be more offended by us finding it amusing than by the person who presumably genuinely felt that way, though. I think I made it clear in the last two episodes during this discussion that I think the term "entitlement" gets thrown around too much and that the only issue I have is with levels of vitriol that are detrimental to -- again in my opinion -- all involved.
We are all members of the forum, after all. No need to feel put on the defensive when some members are criticized for extreme behaviors such as likening the developers to terrorists or driving away new players with harsh vitriol, which are some of the examples that were brought up. I've been here since the beginning, myself.
to be perfectly honest, don't back peddle because this blew up in your faces... that is all im seeing here. p1 and all of the people "working" there have a responsibility to not only watch what they say, but maybe pick and choose what may or may not be offensive to read from the live channel, or from anywhere..
if I was running the podcast, and I was reading stuff the listeners were saying, I might not immidiatly go to the one calling the forum users whiney twits.. lol. I mean, weather it is true or not, your now dealing with the backlash of it. and as far as im concerned, everyone chearing and high fiving eachother was not because of surprise.. when im surprised I may say something like, omg, or oh, that was unexpected.. I don't erupt into applause and happy joy.
again, it was a TRIBBLE poor decision to choose that comment to read, and to be honest, I don't think it was accidental.. the general tone of the whole show since day one has always been to kiss cryptics butt. so jumping on the band wagon that is gekkos, and other devs take on the forums, seems pretty natural for p1.
as far as the others not knowing that someone was gonna read something, well, that is equally as mind numbing. your making a semi professional podcast, everyones reputations are on the line on that show, anyone who makes a call to blurt that garbage out without clearing it with the other hosts, should not be a host.. its one thing to say, oh, well @Putnam said he likes star trek.. its another to say @whatever says everyone on the forums are whiney twits.. you just associated the whole show, and everyone on it to that comment.
Representing +200 players (not counting alts) of the 44th Fleet and 44th Assault Squadron, I can say we support and endorse Priority One.
You guys always deliver interesting, enjoyable, hilarious and yes, critical opinions of Star Trek in general and Star Trek Online in particular. The Herculean task of reporting from STLV this and last year was pulled off brilliantly, worthy of a proper Away Team medal (since no redshirts were killed in the proces - we know of )
We especially like the interviews with the STO Devs and the background info, which sometimes uncover background info about certain Dev decisions made or story directions taken - a real gem, and a real extra bonus for the total game experience.
We in the 44th have players on both sides of the Atlantic, and you provide a service to an international audience that would not have been possible otherwise.
P1 is one of the best STO Fan-made podcasts. Keep on Trekkin'!
I always consider Star Trek Online to be rather fast paced, with not much effort to hit level 50. Just need a weekend and you are there. Reputation is not much better.
Even though it is early days, but I like how much it has slowed down in levelling up. Just now wondering on how much skill and expertise is rewarded with the Delta Rising content.
Periodically, we need to present to people a FIRM reminder that Priority One Podcast is NOT an unbiased media source. We are not nor have we ever professed to be a journalistic source that provides unbiased analysis of Star Trek Online.
For some of you this may be a !!NEWS FLASH!! were a fan-cast! What does that mean? Cryptic can put rainbows on Sovvys and well probably love it!
Will we offer constructive criticism about STO?? you betcha! But, ultimately, we do this show EVERY week because we are fans of Star Trek and Star Trek Online.
Thank you for the information. Your podcast now no longer has any useful purpose for me and I have lost all respect for you and your work on the podcast.
My favorite sources of gaming information and things like Totalbiscuit and some parts of the Dice Tower on Youtube, the Gamers with Jobs podcast, things of that nature. I expect the hosts to present the 'official' information after viewing it with a critical eye and to assist in making me an informed consumer with both the positive and the negative when relevant. If I just wanted pure hype I could look at the official news sources from Cryptic. You are basically saying you are no different than the official sources. The Taco has more trust from me than your podcast at the moment and he is an actual company employee.
And why do I offer feedback, suggestions, and continue to criticize Cryptic and STO? Because on some level I care. I want STO to continue to be a game I enjoy and to continue to improve. Nothing can be improved if no one sees anything wrong with it. Without taking a critical look at something and identifying what is bad, and what could be better the first step cannot be taken. Blindly complementing and hyping things is the same as saying nothing can be improved and is ultimately a waste of everyone's time. The end result of such behavior is at best stagnation, at worst a death spiral of poor decisions resulting in everyone wondering where it all went wrong.
Take the Doff UI as an example of the forum's feedback combined with the patience of a single developer taking the time to make an effort at improving the experience for a particular user subset. Without the 'list' mode and the fix of the UI memory issue I doubt I would still log in. Granted not everything with it is perfect yet, but it has improved. And the various podcasts who did nothing beyond blindly praise the new UI and a particular lead developer dismissing all the feedback were useless at best, damaging at worst. And yes P1 was barely any better in discussions of the new UI than STOKED I do know who is who and I have listened to both in the past in the hope of hearing a new angle on things.
By the way rainbows on the Sovvy would be awesome. And great job destroying all the efforts of Jayce attempting to build a bridge. A troll is now homeless.
Aww! I'm flattered you all would consider me for a position at PWE as a Community Manager! That's awesome!! And although I would love to join Smirk & Trendy on promoting this game professionally; I'm just not prepared to pay the high rent in the Bay area!
Oh, we'll keep posting on these forums. We'll still provide players with an update on the show that includes phenomenal interviews with Devs and industry leaders, in addition to convention and event coverage.
What's interesting is that I didn't hear this much negative feedback about our presentation and coverage from STLV'14. I guess you guys must have really hated that to not even bother to give any of your feedback.
See you next week!
OH! I almost forgot -- for those of you interested in sharing your game ideas constructively -- don't forget to visit our new form! We'll review some of the submissions during our Feedback segment and ship over all the replies to Cryptic at the end of the month!
I largely feel we've entered an area where people are quick to accuse others of trolling, but in doing so have pretty much forgotten what trolling is like. There's just an over-sensitive feel to criticism and negative feedback, where it's all now being righteously ignored and lumped into some trolling description. When in reality most of it is just criticism about X, Y or Z.
Whining and complaining isn't trolling.
If some of those people (especially certain Cryptic employees) would like a refresher course on ACTUAL trolling, I will gladly volunteer to re-educate them as to what trolling is actually like.
Agreed. The words "flaming" and "trolling" are being used far too frequently here lately as an excuse to dismiss valid complaints. These words are being used to dismiss players in general whether they're just expressing feelings and opinions too.
Criticism is not flaming and inviting discussion and debate is not trolling be it heated or not. The tone is negative here and it's a reaction to the way things are going and are being handled.
I'm Tony. I used to be a host on Priority One. I'm still affiliated with Priority One, but now I host a different show, covering a different game. It's a pretty good show, and you should check it out, but that's not why I'm here.
I'm here of my own volition, not at anyone's request or orders. I'm writing on my own behalf, and my opinions are my own and not those of Priority One, its officers, members, or staff.
With that out of the way...
When I started the other podcast, I unabashedly copied Priority One. The format worked, the editorial philosophy worked, the production process worked, and if it ain't broke...
We had six months of pre-production (from May 2013 to November 2013) and nine months of production under our belt. We've made some tweaks, but the underpinning is still the same. It still works.
Let me define "works."
1) My wife has not threatened divorce (Love ya, honey!).
2) I'm still having fun.
3) My team is still having fun.
4) Our listeners and the game's developers have fun with us.
5) Other members of the game's community have fun with us.
And that list is in order. If something stops working for me, personally, I'm just not going to do it anymore. The other podcast, like Priority One, is a labor of love. If I don't love it, I'm not going to labor at it. In contrast, if something is not working for other members of the community, I'll take it under advisement, but it's not going to break anything. One is free to move up and down Levels 3-5 on my "what works" hierarchy, with the commensurate effect on how much I care about one's opinion.
Because here's the thing about why I do what I do every week (for free): I like being the middleman, the broker, the negotiator, the ambassador. I enjoy being an unofficial ombudsman for the game I am excited about. If I didn't believe in the underlying promise or performance of the product, why would I ever try to match customers up with it? Why would I ever play matchmaker if I thought one party was undeserving or abusive?
Lots of people despise the middleman.* I get that. A big part of my day job is being a middleman. Middlemen are often perceived as two-faced, biased, wishy-washy, non-committal, opportunistic, and self-serving. In my experience, this is frequently because the middleman is capable of presenting the "other side's" point of view in a manner that makes "my side's" point of view appear less reasonable. Or, horrors, the middleman dismisses "my side's" view as irrelevant to the issue at hand.
This is what middlemen do. We sort through a bunch of stuff, pick out what we see as critical - or at least relevant - analyze it, present it, and let the two sides agree or disagree. We ignore issues when there is no hope of reconciliation, or when reconciliation is going to happen without our efforts. If we feel that there is a needle that needs to be moved, and that our efforts can move it, we try.
And we try to have fun doing it. At least over at that other podcast, anyway. Did I mention it was a pretty good show and you should check it out?
To sum up: Priority One doesn't get paid for this, they have only so much time and bandwidth to devote to this, and they must have access to both players and developers if they are going to continue on as "middlemen." This is the juggling act they do every week. The fact that both players and devs still talk to them 3 years along strongly indicates a measure of success.
So, if one declares Priority One no more than corporate shills, I think that speaks more to one's own credibility than it does to theirs.
I for one do not place the blame on Priority One's staff as the middlemen. They were merely giving voice to a part of the community who has a massive negative viewpoint of the forums, which I feel part of it is unjustified.
I think this is now starting to get so blown out of proportion, it's reaching Drama Queen status. So we need to just take a step back and gain perspective.
Priority One, just focus on the facts. Don't go modern-day Media and in blowing things out of proportion and having the story all about opinions.
To whom it may concern on the P1 crew... , two things :
- I'm something of a podcast "aficionado" in several genres , and thus I have this perspective to offer :
Before I listen to RSA , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Tribbles in Ecstasy , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Keep on Trekkin , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to STOked , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Deck Eight , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Gates of Stovokor , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Priority One , I have no idea what I'm gonna get (speaking of the current crew only , not the originators of the show) .
Which brings me to my second point :
- The following opinion is mine and mine alone :
Sometimes you display critical thinking and poke and prod issues until something falls out . Or something does not fall out but at least you try .
Other times ... -- here comes the "horrible forum rudeness" , so brace yourselves -- other times you have your noses so deep up Cryptic's rear end that your feet don't stick out .
I did not say the above to be mean .
I said it because that is the "corner" you freely choose to podcast from (which is your absolute right) , but the random switching back and forth between these two positions leaves me ... not a happy listener .
If you would break it up so at least I can consistently expect a pro-Cryptic POV from one host and
a more skeptic , more objective POV from another host -- that I could anticipate and digest .
But having one week (or even half a show sometimes) come off as BBC and the other as Faux News is just ... meh ... and it leaves me with a feeling that I could have used this time to listen to something better.
As someone who as been listening to "internet radio shows" (that's what podcast were called before the iPod was invented) on 56K modems (that was before streaming was in and what is now referred to as "internet radio") , I can offer one other perspective :
Back in the day , the GateWorld podcast had some interesting connections to the producers of Stargate , which at times was extremely interesting to listen to (back in the day) due to the show runners perspective on plot lines and things .
The Transformers community on the other hand has almost no contact with the "powers that be" (aside from a few individuals) , but said individuals don't do podcasts and they don't come on as guests . Never the less , some Transformers podcasts go from 2-4 hours in length and some carry that very well due to the personas of the hosts .
Priority One (and indeed all of the podcasts that get interviews from Cryptic) fall somewhere between the two examples above .
You're "in the now" up 'till a point and it seems to me that you collectively feel that you have to "play nice" lest you be the next RSA .
To this attitude I point to the Transformers fandom .
No "official access" and doing just fine .
If you want to be best pals with Al & co. , that's just dandy .
But you don't need them to be a good podcast .
And a good podcast to me was always a mix of good personas (which you have) , along with stuff that they wanted to tell , with an equal measure of what they wanted their audience to hear ... -- even if it went against their personal beliefs on the topic .
(Example : Podcaster can be the biggest Transformers fan ever , but if a game / toy / comic / other has issues , he should talk about those issues ... or he won't be listened to by me .)
No sarcasm: Seriously Aelfwin1 -- I appreciate the constructive feedback and I appreciate your opinion. You bring up some excellent points and mention some great examples. It's something worth reviewing. Feel free to email me directly if you have any other specific examples (even from our own shows) that you'd like to reference.
I greatly enjoy listening to your podcast. You guys are very informative and are usually pretty fair. I also understand how difficult it must be trying to be friends with the Cryptic employees (to get interviews and stuff) and say something that maybe they might not like. It's probably very risky.
But for the past few episodes I've noticed a very "Cryptic does no wrong attitude." I'm referring to the T6 ship issue, the new DOff interface, and this latest issue about the people on the forums. Also, why haven't you guys discussed the lack of information and communication from PWE and Cryptic since Season 9 dropped? That is an issue that has had many people largely concerned and I know that I find it frustrating that we were not getting Dev blogs regularly again until recently.
I think, in regards to the forums, people are upset over a lot of these issues (some of them rightly so). Are there trolls and such on the forums? Sure there are! It wouldn't be the internet without them. But I've seen a lot of completely helpful people and lots of decent criticism on here as well. It's incredibly insulting when you provide feedback (which was asked for) and then told that your opinion is invalid by someone in a high position in the game. It's insulting when you are grouped with all of the bad people on the forum despite actually trying to do something good. If you don't have this planned, I think you guys all need to give a humble and sincere apology to everyone on the forums during the show.
Call me Yuka~
~Vice Admiral Saskia - U.S.S. Muenzuka (Dyson Science Destroyer)~
~Lieutenant General Kalinka - I.K.S. Kazami (Negh'Var Heavy Battlecruiser)~
~Vice Admiral Lorel - R.R.W. Aureus Aquila (Mirror Mogai Heavy Warbird)~
Not everyone has a negative attitude against Cryptic. To try to force the podcast people to take a viewpoint you have would be folly. The P1 people have a website and this thread for people to give them feedback.
I can only speak for myself and I don't have an issue with Cryptic. I knew T6 was going to cost as well as T5U.
As for them not giving us information...this is how companies operate. How long did we go from seeing the Romulan symbol at the end of that trailer until finding out we were getting a playable Romulan class?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Not everyone has a negative attitude against Cryptic. To try to force the podcast people to take a viewpoint you have would be folly. The P1 people have a website and this thread for people to give them feedback.
I can only speak for myself and I don't have an issue with Cryptic. I knew T6 was going to cost as well as T5U.
As for them not giving us information...this is how companies operate. How long did we go from seeing the Romulan symbol at the end of that trailer until finding out we were getting a playable Romulan class?
I'm not trying to force my viewpoint on them, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. I was just offering my opinion. I don't really have many issues with Cryptic either, I just don't like getting told my opinion isn't valid.
As for the things I mentioned, I specifically mentioned them because there seemed to be little discussion and/or understanding of the things people were not happy with. I brought up the lack of communication because that was something that people were discussing for quite a while but it was not talked about on the show. It's perfectly fine if they want to be a pro-Cryptic podcast (I'd still listen lol). But to advertise yourself as a voice of the community and then not discuss what members of the community are concerned about just seems......odd to me (again this is my opinion).
Again, I'm sorry if it sounds like I am trying to force my viewpoint. I'm not.
Call me Yuka~
~Vice Admiral Saskia - U.S.S. Muenzuka (Dyson Science Destroyer)~
~Lieutenant General Kalinka - I.K.S. Kazami (Negh'Var Heavy Battlecruiser)~
~Vice Admiral Lorel - R.R.W. Aureus Aquila (Mirror Mogai Heavy Warbird)~
I'm not trying to force my viewpoint on them, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. I was just offering my opinion. I don't really have many issues with Cryptic either, I just don't like getting told my opinion isn't valid.
As for the things I mentioned, I specifically mentioned them because there seemed to be little discussion and/or understanding of the things people were not happy with. I brought up the lack of communication because that was something that people were discussing for quite a while but it was not talked about on the show. It's perfectly fine if they want to be a pro-Cryptic podcast (I'd still listen lol). But to advertise yourself as a voice of the community and then not discuss what members of the community are concerned about just seems......odd to me (again this is my opinion).
Again, I'm sorry if it sounds like I am trying to force my viewpoint. I'm not.
Maybe 'force' was to forceful of a word. I do not mean to offend.
Perhaps no one wrote to the site to talk about the things Cryptic aren't doing right. They can only be a voice of the community when the community bring their issues to them.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Maybe 'force' was to forceful of a word. I do not mean to offend.
Perhaps no one wrote to the site to talk about the things Cryptic aren't doing right. They can only be a voice of the community when the community bring their issues to them.
They do ask for ideas, and feedback, in the threads they make on the forums. And I'm pretty sure some of the issues brought up were the ones people are giving feedback about on this thread. If I recall correctly, at least.
I'm seeing a lot of assumptions, flippant, and disparaging remarks coming from P1 (primarily from Elijah) towards forum posters and I don't care for it. I also find it very inaccurate, the actual level of trolling going on in here is really mild. It really is pretty weak sauce.
Vitriol - You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means...
I have been listening to P1 for at least the last 8 consecutive episodes, mainly because I followed a Cryptic link to the podcast and discovered a newbie I helped is part of the P1 team. So, I give you guys a shot and at first I think it's cool, with the dev interviews and all. But with the last few episodes, I have been getting increasingly disappointed.
What I really want out of a podcast, other than dev interviews, is an objective viewpoint. I get that you're all fanbois, and you're really excited about the game. However, I don't need a yesman. If Cryptic gives us a highly polished TRIBBLE, I want to hear something more than just how shiny it is.
And then, when you have gems like 'New Hotness', 'Old and Busted', 'SO WHAT!?!', and 'Intimately talking in your ears.', it's a pretty big turnoff.
I don't want to keep listening if I'm going to keep get insulted. Even though I'm not a troll, the last few have felt kind of insulting to me.
I'm seeing a lot of assumptions, flippant, and disparaging remarks coming from P1 (primarily from Elijah) towards forum posters and I don't care for it. I also find it very inaccurate, the actual level of trolling going on in here is really mild. It really is pretty weak sauce.
So today I've noticed that the most aggressive, most negative and most disparaging posts I've seen have been from people who are defending the game and the devs and the announcements.
But in the podcasts and from Geko, it's essentially been the people offering critical feedback who are labeled as whiners and complainers and the source of the forums' negativity.
So right now I think it might be fascinating to parse this. To collect some data. And see who is adding the most negativity. I think for every person that says something along the lines of "Geko, you suck" ... is actually overwhelmed by a higher ratio of people saying "You, poster, suck at PVE, are a self-entitled Jerk, and should just quit the game. Can I Haz UR stuff?" type of thing.
I, of course, nominate Elijah to take up this task since it's in his wheelhouse!
My challenge to P1:
Who is more negative? The Anti-Cryptic Posters or the Cryptic Defense Force?
I bet there's a ton of trolls on the CDF's side of the bridge.
See what I did there? Trolls? Bridge? Star Trek? ZING!
I find it odd that anyone, podcast or otherwise, is surprised by the current state of the forums. Cryptic dropped a bombshell with T6 stuff, and had nothing to offer on it for weeks. The response was entirely and utterly predictable.
If the news is all sunshine and rainbows, why wait and let it go on? If its bad, just rip the bandaid off and get it over with.
In my mind its a was a poor PR decision to wait this long that I find hard to defend. Glossing over it and blaming it all on us evil forumites is not the way to go.
Aww! I'm flattered you all would consider me for a position at PWE as a Community Manager! That's awesome!! And although I would love to join Smirk & Trendy on promoting this game professionally; I'm just not prepared to pay the high rent in the Bay area!
Oh, we'll keep posting on these forums. We'll still provide players with an update on the show that includes phenomenal interviews with Devs and industry leaders, in addition to convention and event coverage.
What's interesting is that I didn't hear this much negative feedback about our presentation and coverage from STLV'14. I guess you guys must have really hated that to not even bother to give any of your feedback.
See you next week!
Can you be any more condescending? Maybe try putting a bit more flame bait in perhaps, or possibly being even more dismissive via sarcasm would help. If your going to put yourself on a pedestal above that of us so called forum trolls you should first not emulate such behaviors.
OH! I almost forgot -- for those of you interested in sharing your game ideas constructively -- don't forget to visit our new form! We'll review some of the submissions during our Feedback segment and ship over all the replies to Cryptic at the end of the month!
Last I checked this 'official' forum had several locations for those to go, where they won't be instantly dismissed by a non Cryptic employee for being full of vitriol or coming from twats with a sense of entitlement. I'm much more comfortable with someone who's paycheck relies on the game doing well to make such judgements and even if I ?dislike their attitude at times they are forced to deal with the consequences at a professional level.
I for one do not place the blame on Priority One's staff as the middlemen. They were merely giving voice to a part of the community who has a massive negative viewpoint of the forums, which I feel part of it is unjustified.
Agreed with azurianstar and to be honest my problem stems from the terrible handling of the entire situation/problem. If the official forum community is full of negativity how on earth will an attempt to blame and shame the members of that community while praising the members of a podcast community help anything? Especially when many people are likely to be a member of both communities.
Then to be dismissive toward that community to the point where your response to them in the beginning is hidden away on your own site instead of being posted to the actual thread? Ugh. Honestly some of the responses here from both myself, other forum posts, but most depressingly the self titled captain of P1 are dangerously close to 'trolling'.
And I understand their will be some bias in coverage, everyone has bias. I just have absolutely no use for fanboi / fanatic level bias which in the past I might add P1 has not had. Until recently.
He could have been openly hostile and vitriolic when responding to the proffered insult. Instead, Elijah decided to deflect it. Indeed, the commenter confirmed later in this thread that the suggestion that Elijah "turn pro" was not a compliment.
Agreed with azurianstar and to be honest my problem stems from the terrible handling of the entire situation/problem. If the official forum community is full of negativity how on earth will an attempt to blame and shame the members of that community while praising the members of a podcast community help anything? Especially when many people are likely to be a member of both communities.
Those truly deserving of the "blame and shame" are typically not found posting in large numbers on P1 threads. In my experience and opinion, they are also not typically listening to fancasts like P1. I therefore respectfully disagree with your assessment of demographic overlap. In my PERSONAL opinion, the "blame and shame" is a reminder to everyone to examine one's own expectations of the game in light of the business and professional environment Cryptic operates BEFORE posting on the forums. And encourage others to do likewise.
And I understand their will be some bias in coverage, everyone has bias. I just have absolutely no use for fanboi / fanatic level bias which in the past I might add P1 has not had. Until recently.
One of the interesting side effects of being unashamed, declared, open "fanbois" of a product is that when you do have a concern, it is given a degree of deference. At any rate, more deference than forum threads filled with threats to leave the game and demands for changes that frustrate the design goals of the system. One knows every tiny change to the game is likely to infuriate SOMEBODY. I submit that if you want to know what game change has worried even the fanbois/fanatics, then you want to listen to P1. And chances are, when the fanbois (which includes women, by the way) are concerned, the issue will be addressed. Maybe not amended, but at least addressed.
I have to agree. Not sure what is going on inside P1, but it seems that your self-perception is starting to shift from player/user based fan product to unpaid PWE PR department.
There is no reason to mention that the devs work and try hard. I though the podcast was about the game,not the personal adventures of cryptics employees. There is a product ie. the D'kora, and if it is bugged, and has been since release, the tone of the forum posts concerning this bug become harsh. Tough luck, haven't seen the retail job that hasn't had to deal with harsh costumers. But finding a parent company that has the nerves to keep complaining about their costumers into their faces...thats quite something. Not to mention that obviously Star Trek fans, maybe more so then Victorica Secret shoppers, have a tendency to be very passionate about minute details of the IP. Naturally this passions translates into feedback about the game. One would assume that devs coming to work on it, knew this, since they are all passionate about trek themselves.
If you don't like the tone of the forums, fine. But what reason could there possibly be to devote a good portion of your show to calling names and trolling the forums? You know there are real people behind those posts, and they try really hard to communicate with cryptic. Whats the point in insulting them? Its bad enough that Geko calls pvp'ers 14 year old min-maxers with too much time, why on earth would a player based podcast join this kind of chorus.
It's cryptics PR and development moves that are setting the tone of the forums, nothing more nothing less. Sure crazy people exist here and elsewhere, but that has no bearing whatsoever on anything expressed in this episode.
TL;DR. I don't care about P1 personal feelings about the hard work of cryptic employees schedules, nor their feelings about the persons frequenting the STO forums. Bashing players is just as bad as bashing devs. Neither has anything to do with the game: Star Trek online.
I appreciate the sentiment here and your opinion, but I wanted to reply to your reference to retail and relating that to the forums and Cryptic. I've worked retail management for 20 years. There is quite a bit of forum posts that is directed at devs that if it would occur with me face to face they would be asked to leave and escorted out of the building by the police.
The prevailing opinion that Cryptic should or has to put up with that is just fallacy. It is high time that forum posters in general need to accept the adversarial and negative environment they have created. You also seem to ignore the comments made to P1 about players nearly leaving the game or avoiding the forums based on hatred. That's not their comments that is ours.
As far as P1 laughing at the "twits" comment, I think we just need to accept the reality and not take it personally unless you happen to be a twit.
Do people have legitimate criticism and requests? Sure. Do they have the slightest clue the effort involved in fixing a problem or fulfilling the request? Not a chance.
Good God people, just relax I think this was taken way out of proportion. Let's be honest first of all the "twit" comment was not made by Priority 1 but by one of their listeners, yes they broadcasted it, so what. I'm a big forum posters and I even chuckled at it while listening to it in my car as well.
Let's all be honest they were addressing the issue about all the "Doom!" threads and negative comments that spring up so much now a-days in the forums. More such these days that there are so many new updates coming out and these updates/features will not please everyone.
And in closing I leave you with this little video that hopefully we can all...let it go... hehe
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Let's be honest first of all the "twit" comment was not made by Priority 1 but by one of their listeners, yes they broadcasted it, so what.
I appreciate that P1 may not be bound by the highest standards of journalism, but to absolve them of all responsibility for something they recorded, edited and chose to broadcast is a little disingenuous, no?
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to be perfectly honest, don't back peddle because this blew up in your faces... that is all im seeing here. p1 and all of the people "working" there have a responsibility to not only watch what they say, but maybe pick and choose what may or may not be offensive to read from the live channel, or from anywhere..
if I was running the podcast, and I was reading stuff the listeners were saying, I might not immidiatly go to the one calling the forum users whiney twits.. lol. I mean, weather it is true or not, your now dealing with the backlash of it. and as far as im concerned, everyone chearing and high fiving eachother was not because of surprise.. when im surprised I may say something like, omg, or oh, that was unexpected.. I don't erupt into applause and happy joy.
again, it was a TRIBBLE poor decision to choose that comment to read, and to be honest, I don't think it was accidental.. the general tone of the whole show since day one has always been to kiss cryptics butt. so jumping on the band wagon that is gekkos, and other devs take on the forums, seems pretty natural for p1.
as far as the others not knowing that someone was gonna read something, well, that is equally as mind numbing. your making a semi professional podcast, everyones reputations are on the line on that show, anyone who makes a call to blurt that garbage out without clearing it with the other hosts, should not be a host.. its one thing to say, oh, well @Putnam said he likes star trek.. its another to say @whatever says everyone on the forums are whiney twits.. you just associated the whole show, and everyone on it to that comment.
You guys always deliver interesting, enjoyable, hilarious and yes, critical opinions of Star Trek in general and Star Trek Online in particular. The Herculean task of reporting from STLV this and last year was pulled off brilliantly, worthy of a proper Away Team medal (since no redshirts were killed in the proces - we know of
We especially like the interviews with the STO Devs and the background info, which sometimes uncover background info about certain Dev decisions made or story directions taken - a real gem, and a real extra bonus for the total game experience.
We in the 44th have players on both sides of the Atlantic, and you provide a service to an international audience that would not have been possible otherwise.
P1 is one of the best STO Fan-made podcasts. Keep on Trekkin'!
Cheers,
Marcase
Vice-Admiral,
44th Fleet, 44th Assault Squadron
(There, can I have my Cookie now?
The Mighty 44th. Boldly bashing Borgs to bits since 2010.
Even though it is early days, but I like how much it has slowed down in levelling up. Just now wondering on how much skill and expertise is rewarded with the Delta Rising content.
have a nice life.
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Thank you for the information. Your podcast now no longer has any useful purpose for me and I have lost all respect for you and your work on the podcast.
My favorite sources of gaming information and things like Totalbiscuit and some parts of the Dice Tower on Youtube, the Gamers with Jobs podcast, things of that nature. I expect the hosts to present the 'official' information after viewing it with a critical eye and to assist in making me an informed consumer with both the positive and the negative when relevant. If I just wanted pure hype I could look at the official news sources from Cryptic. You are basically saying you are no different than the official sources. The Taco has more trust from me than your podcast at the moment and he is an actual company employee.
And why do I offer feedback, suggestions, and continue to criticize Cryptic and STO? Because on some level I care. I want STO to continue to be a game I enjoy and to continue to improve. Nothing can be improved if no one sees anything wrong with it. Without taking a critical look at something and identifying what is bad, and what could be better the first step cannot be taken. Blindly complementing and hyping things is the same as saying nothing can be improved and is ultimately a waste of everyone's time. The end result of such behavior is at best stagnation, at worst a death spiral of poor decisions resulting in everyone wondering where it all went wrong.
Take the Doff UI as an example of the forum's feedback combined with the patience of a single developer taking the time to make an effort at improving the experience for a particular user subset. Without the 'list' mode and the fix of the UI memory issue I doubt I would still log in. Granted not everything with it is perfect yet, but it has improved. And the various podcasts who did nothing beyond blindly praise the new UI and a particular lead developer dismissing all the feedback were useless at best, damaging at worst. And yes P1 was barely any better in discussions of the new UI than STOKED I do know who is who and I have listened to both in the past in the hope of hearing a new angle on things.
By the way rainbows on the Sovvy would be awesome. And great job destroying all the efforts of Jayce attempting to build a bridge. A troll is now homeless.
Ahhh, a marvellous reply and one that really shows where your priorities lie.
Good luck with getting the job at PWE.
With a resume like yours, I'm sure they'll snap you right up.
Oh, but one thing......
....you've given up the right to call yourself a player driven podcast.
May as well call yourself PWE1 and have done.
I read your comment. I'm confused. Does this mean you won't be posting on the forums anymore?
Give it time, he'll probably become our new PWE CM.
Then, of course, he wont post here ever again........
Oh, we'll keep posting on these forums. We'll still provide players with an update on the show that includes phenomenal interviews with Devs and industry leaders, in addition to convention and event coverage.
What's interesting is that I didn't hear this much negative feedback about our presentation and coverage from STLV'14. I guess you guys must have really hated that to not even bother to give any of your feedback.
See you next week!
OH! I almost forgot -- for those of you interested in sharing your game ideas constructively -- don't forget to visit our new form! We'll review some of the submissions during our Feedback segment and ship over all the replies to Cryptic at the end of the month!
GAME IDEAS FORM
Agreed. The words "flaming" and "trolling" are being used far too frequently here lately as an excuse to dismiss valid complaints. These words are being used to dismiss players in general whether they're just expressing feelings and opinions too.
Criticism is not flaming and inviting discussion and debate is not trolling be it heated or not. The tone is negative here and it's a reaction to the way things are going and are being handled.
Don't be, it wasn't a compliment.
I'm Tony. I used to be a host on Priority One. I'm still affiliated with Priority One, but now I host a different show, covering a different game. It's a pretty good show, and you should check it out, but that's not why I'm here.
I'm here of my own volition, not at anyone's request or orders. I'm writing on my own behalf, and my opinions are my own and not those of Priority One, its officers, members, or staff.
With that out of the way...
When I started the other podcast, I unabashedly copied Priority One. The format worked, the editorial philosophy worked, the production process worked, and if it ain't broke...
We had six months of pre-production (from May 2013 to November 2013) and nine months of production under our belt. We've made some tweaks, but the underpinning is still the same. It still works.
Let me define "works."
1) My wife has not threatened divorce (Love ya, honey!).
2) I'm still having fun.
3) My team is still having fun.
4) Our listeners and the game's developers have fun with us.
5) Other members of the game's community have fun with us.
And that list is in order. If something stops working for me, personally, I'm just not going to do it anymore. The other podcast, like Priority One, is a labor of love. If I don't love it, I'm not going to labor at it. In contrast, if something is not working for other members of the community, I'll take it under advisement, but it's not going to break anything. One is free to move up and down Levels 3-5 on my "what works" hierarchy, with the commensurate effect on how much I care about one's opinion.
Because here's the thing about why I do what I do every week (for free): I like being the middleman, the broker, the negotiator, the ambassador. I enjoy being an unofficial ombudsman for the game I am excited about. If I didn't believe in the underlying promise or performance of the product, why would I ever try to match customers up with it? Why would I ever play matchmaker if I thought one party was undeserving or abusive?
Lots of people despise the middleman.* I get that. A big part of my day job is being a middleman. Middlemen are often perceived as two-faced, biased, wishy-washy, non-committal, opportunistic, and self-serving. In my experience, this is frequently because the middleman is capable of presenting the "other side's" point of view in a manner that makes "my side's" point of view appear less reasonable. Or, horrors, the middleman dismisses "my side's" view as irrelevant to the issue at hand.
This is what middlemen do. We sort through a bunch of stuff, pick out what we see as critical - or at least relevant - analyze it, present it, and let the two sides agree or disagree. We ignore issues when there is no hope of reconciliation, or when reconciliation is going to happen without our efforts. If we feel that there is a needle that needs to be moved, and that our efforts can move it, we try.
And we try to have fun doing it. At least over at that other podcast, anyway. Did I mention it was a pretty good show and you should check it out?
To sum up: Priority One doesn't get paid for this, they have only so much time and bandwidth to devote to this, and they must have access to both players and developers if they are going to continue on as "middlemen." This is the juggling act they do every week. The fact that both players and devs still talk to them 3 years along strongly indicates a measure of success.
So, if one declares Priority One no more than corporate shills, I think that speaks more to one's own credibility than it does to theirs.
LLAP, all of you,
Tony
*It could be a middlewoman, too.
I think this is now starting to get so blown out of proportion, it's reaching Drama Queen status. So we need to just take a step back and gain perspective.
Priority One, just focus on the facts. Don't go modern-day Media and in blowing things out of proportion and having the story all about opinions.
- I'm something of a podcast "aficionado" in several genres , and thus I have this perspective to offer :
Before I listen to RSA , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Tribbles in Ecstasy , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Keep on Trekkin , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to STOked , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Deck Eight , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Gates of Stovokor , I know what I'm gonna get .
Before I listen to Priority One , I have no idea what I'm gonna get (speaking of the current crew only , not the originators of the show) .
Which brings me to my second point :
- The following opinion is mine and mine alone :
Sometimes you display critical thinking and poke and prod issues until something falls out . Or something does not fall out but at least you try .
Other times ... -- here comes the "horrible forum rudeness" , so brace yourselves -- other times you have your noses so deep up Cryptic's rear end that your feet don't stick out .
I did not say the above to be mean .
I said it because that is the "corner" you freely choose to podcast from (which is your absolute right) , but the random switching back and forth between these two positions leaves me ... not a happy listener .
If you would break it up so at least I can consistently expect a pro-Cryptic POV from one host and
a more skeptic , more objective POV from another host -- that I could anticipate and digest .
But having one week (or even half a show sometimes) come off as BBC and the other as Faux News is just ... meh ... and it leaves me with a feeling that I could have used this time to listen to something better.
As someone who as been listening to "internet radio shows" (that's what podcast were called before the iPod was invented) on 56K modems (that was before streaming was in and what is now referred to as "internet radio") , I can offer one other perspective :
Back in the day , the GateWorld podcast had some interesting connections to the producers of Stargate , which at times was extremely interesting to listen to (back in the day) due to the show runners perspective on plot lines and things .
The Transformers community on the other hand has almost no contact with the "powers that be" (aside from a few individuals) , but said individuals don't do podcasts and they don't come on as guests . Never the less , some Transformers podcasts go from 2-4 hours in length and some carry that very well due to the personas of the hosts .
Priority One (and indeed all of the podcasts that get interviews from Cryptic) fall somewhere between the two examples above .
You're "in the now" up 'till a point and it seems to me that you collectively feel that you have to "play nice" lest you be the next RSA .
To this attitude I point to the Transformers fandom .
No "official access" and doing just fine .
If you want to be best pals with Al & co. , that's just dandy .
But you don't need them to be a good podcast .
And a good podcast to me was always a mix of good personas (which you have) , along with stuff that they wanted to tell , with an equal measure of what they wanted their audience to hear ... -- even if it went against their personal beliefs on the topic .
(Example : Podcaster can be the biggest Transformers fan ever , but if a game / toy / comic / other has issues , he should talk about those issues ... or he won't be listened to by me .)
Thems some of my thoughts in way too many words .
No sarcasm: Seriously Aelfwin1 -- I appreciate the constructive feedback and I appreciate your opinion. You bring up some excellent points and mention some great examples. It's something worth reviewing. Feel free to email me directly if you have any other specific examples (even from our own shows) that you'd like to reference.
I greatly enjoy listening to your podcast. You guys are very informative and are usually pretty fair. I also understand how difficult it must be trying to be friends with the Cryptic employees (to get interviews and stuff) and say something that maybe they might not like. It's probably very risky.
But for the past few episodes I've noticed a very "Cryptic does no wrong attitude." I'm referring to the T6 ship issue, the new DOff interface, and this latest issue about the people on the forums. Also, why haven't you guys discussed the lack of information and communication from PWE and Cryptic since Season 9 dropped? That is an issue that has had many people largely concerned and I know that I find it frustrating that we were not getting Dev blogs regularly again until recently.
I think, in regards to the forums, people are upset over a lot of these issues (some of them rightly so). Are there trolls and such on the forums? Sure there are! It wouldn't be the internet without them. But I've seen a lot of completely helpful people and lots of decent criticism on here as well. It's incredibly insulting when you provide feedback (which was asked for) and then told that your opinion is invalid by someone in a high position in the game. It's insulting when you are grouped with all of the bad people on the forum despite actually trying to do something good. If you don't have this planned, I think you guys all need to give a humble and sincere apology to everyone on the forums during the show.
~Vice Admiral Saskia - U.S.S. Muenzuka (Dyson Science Destroyer)~
~Lieutenant General Kalinka - I.K.S. Kazami (Negh'Var Heavy Battlecruiser)~
~Vice Admiral Lorel - R.R.W. Aureus Aquila (Mirror Mogai Heavy Warbird)~
I can only speak for myself and I don't have an issue with Cryptic. I knew T6 was going to cost as well as T5U.
As for them not giving us information...this is how companies operate. How long did we go from seeing the Romulan symbol at the end of that trailer until finding out we were getting a playable Romulan class?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I'm not trying to force my viewpoint on them, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. I was just offering my opinion. I don't really have many issues with Cryptic either, I just don't like getting told my opinion isn't valid.
As for the things I mentioned, I specifically mentioned them because there seemed to be little discussion and/or understanding of the things people were not happy with. I brought up the lack of communication because that was something that people were discussing for quite a while but it was not talked about on the show. It's perfectly fine if they want to be a pro-Cryptic podcast (I'd still listen lol). But to advertise yourself as a voice of the community and then not discuss what members of the community are concerned about just seems......odd to me (again this is my opinion).
Again, I'm sorry if it sounds like I am trying to force my viewpoint. I'm not.
~Vice Admiral Saskia - U.S.S. Muenzuka (Dyson Science Destroyer)~
~Lieutenant General Kalinka - I.K.S. Kazami (Negh'Var Heavy Battlecruiser)~
~Vice Admiral Lorel - R.R.W. Aureus Aquila (Mirror Mogai Heavy Warbird)~
Maybe 'force' was to forceful of a word. I do not mean to offend.
Perhaps no one wrote to the site to talk about the things Cryptic aren't doing right. They can only be a voice of the community when the community bring their issues to them.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
They do ask for ideas, and feedback, in the threads they make on the forums. And I'm pretty sure some of the issues brought up were the ones people are giving feedback about on this thread. If I recall correctly, at least.
Vitriol - You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means...
I have been listening to P1 for at least the last 8 consecutive episodes, mainly because I followed a Cryptic link to the podcast and discovered a newbie I helped is part of the P1 team. So, I give you guys a shot and at first I think it's cool, with the dev interviews and all. But with the last few episodes, I have been getting increasingly disappointed.
What I really want out of a podcast, other than dev interviews, is an objective viewpoint. I get that you're all fanbois, and you're really excited about the game. However, I don't need a yesman. If Cryptic gives us a highly polished TRIBBLE, I want to hear something more than just how shiny it is.
And then, when you have gems like 'New Hotness', 'Old and Busted', 'SO WHAT!?!', and 'Intimately talking in your ears.', it's a pretty big turnoff.
I don't want to keep listening if I'm going to keep get insulted. Even though I'm not a troll, the last few have felt kind of insulting to me.
So today I've noticed that the most aggressive, most negative and most disparaging posts I've seen have been from people who are defending the game and the devs and the announcements.
But in the podcasts and from Geko, it's essentially been the people offering critical feedback who are labeled as whiners and complainers and the source of the forums' negativity.
So right now I think it might be fascinating to parse this. To collect some data. And see who is adding the most negativity. I think for every person that says something along the lines of "Geko, you suck" ... is actually overwhelmed by a higher ratio of people saying "You, poster, suck at PVE, are a self-entitled Jerk, and should just quit the game. Can I Haz UR stuff?" type of thing.
I, of course, nominate Elijah to take up this task since it's in his wheelhouse!
My challenge to P1:
Who is more negative? The Anti-Cryptic Posters or the Cryptic Defense Force?
I bet there's a ton of trolls on the CDF's side of the bridge.
See what I did there? Trolls? Bridge? Star Trek? ZING!
Challenge accepted! Look, I even created a handy form for people to use!!
http://priorityonepodcast.com/gameideas/
If the news is all sunshine and rainbows, why wait and let it go on? If its bad, just rip the bandaid off and get it over with.
In my mind its a was a poor PR decision to wait this long that I find hard to defend. Glossing over it and blaming it all on us evil forumites is not the way to go.
Can you be any more condescending? Maybe try putting a bit more flame bait in perhaps, or possibly being even more dismissive via sarcasm would help. If your going to put yourself on a pedestal above that of us so called forum trolls you should first not emulate such behaviors.
Last I checked this 'official' forum had several locations for those to go, where they won't be instantly dismissed by a non Cryptic employee for being full of vitriol or coming from twats with a sense of entitlement. I'm much more comfortable with someone who's paycheck relies on the game doing well to make such judgements and even if I ?dislike their attitude at times they are forced to deal with the consequences at a professional level.
Agreed with azurianstar and to be honest my problem stems from the terrible handling of the entire situation/problem. If the official forum community is full of negativity how on earth will an attempt to blame and shame the members of that community while praising the members of a podcast community help anything? Especially when many people are likely to be a member of both communities.
Then to be dismissive toward that community to the point where your response to them in the beginning is hidden away on your own site instead of being posted to the actual thread? Ugh. Honestly some of the responses here from both myself, other forum posts, but most depressingly the self titled captain of P1 are dangerously close to 'trolling'.
And I understand their will be some bias in coverage, everyone has bias. I just have absolutely no use for fanboi / fanatic level bias which in the past I might add P1 has not had. Until recently.
He could have been openly hostile and vitriolic when responding to the proffered insult. Instead, Elijah decided to deflect it. Indeed, the commenter confirmed later in this thread that the suggestion that Elijah "turn pro" was not a compliment.
Those truly deserving of the "blame and shame" are typically not found posting in large numbers on P1 threads. In my experience and opinion, they are also not typically listening to fancasts like P1. I therefore respectfully disagree with your assessment of demographic overlap. In my PERSONAL opinion, the "blame and shame" is a reminder to everyone to examine one's own expectations of the game in light of the business and professional environment Cryptic operates BEFORE posting on the forums. And encourage others to do likewise.
One of the interesting side effects of being unashamed, declared, open "fanbois" of a product is that when you do have a concern, it is given a degree of deference. At any rate, more deference than forum threads filled with threats to leave the game and demands for changes that frustrate the design goals of the system. One knows every tiny change to the game is likely to infuriate SOMEBODY. I submit that if you want to know what game change has worried even the fanbois/fanatics, then you want to listen to P1. And chances are, when the fanbois (which includes women, by the way) are concerned, the issue will be addressed. Maybe not amended, but at least addressed.
I appreciate the sentiment here and your opinion, but I wanted to reply to your reference to retail and relating that to the forums and Cryptic. I've worked retail management for 20 years. There is quite a bit of forum posts that is directed at devs that if it would occur with me face to face they would be asked to leave and escorted out of the building by the police.
The prevailing opinion that Cryptic should or has to put up with that is just fallacy. It is high time that forum posters in general need to accept the adversarial and negative environment they have created. You also seem to ignore the comments made to P1 about players nearly leaving the game or avoiding the forums based on hatred. That's not their comments that is ours.
As far as P1 laughing at the "twits" comment, I think we just need to accept the reality and not take it personally unless you happen to be a twit.
Do people have legitimate criticism and requests? Sure. Do they have the slightest clue the effort involved in fixing a problem or fulfilling the request? Not a chance.
Let's all be honest they were addressing the issue about all the "Doom!" threads and negative comments that spring up so much now a-days in the forums. More such these days that there are so many new updates coming out and these updates/features will not please everyone.
And in closing I leave you with this little video that hopefully we can all...let it go... hehe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk
Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians
U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
Armada (STOFA Member Fleet): https://www.libertytaskforce.com/stofa
Discord: https://discord.gg/bGp9N7z
Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
I appreciate that P1 may not be bound by the highest standards of journalism, but to absolve them of all responsibility for something they recorded, edited and chose to broadcast is a little disingenuous, no?