so you're telling me, that if i am in a jungle with a scrambler, wearing camouflage, being chased by a redshirt (quite literally) with a tricorder, he's gonna find me? not likely.
Redshirt always finds you. Otherwise he couldn't do his job -being killed-. Maybe a redshirt is even better than a tricorder. Not only does he reveal the hidden opponent, he also serves as decoy.
Redshirt always finds you. Otherwise he couldn't do his job -being killed-. Maybe a redshirt is even better than a tricorder. Not only does he reveal the hidden opponent, he also serves as decoy.
i think you just broke the code to the ultimate stealth detection system! :eek:
I'd post the picture of someone holding ther tricorder and their gun out so they can use both at the same time, but I'm on my phone at the moment.
And asking if I have a scrambler handy is exactly my point, that's what's hiding you, not your shirt.
Ps, head worn sights from the episode of DS9 with the TR116...
Visual camouflage is still a factor if people are dirt-side looking for you. Scramblers alone won't always hide you.
Seriously. You expect MACOs operatives to launch an operation wearing pink tutus? Or that their camo BDUs are just for looks?
In real life, in this age of FLIR, hi-rez digital satellite technology, and drones, the armed forces of the world's military forces still use camo for a reason. And it's not just to look cool or badass. There is no reason, in my opinion, that the same couldn't fit in the Star Trek universe.
I'd post the picture of someone holding ther tricorder and their gun out so they can use both at the same time, but I'm on my phone at the moment.
And asking if I have a scrambler handy is exactly my point, that's what's hiding you, not your shirt.
Ps, head worn sights from the episode of DS9 with the TR116...
Yet oddly enough the vast majority of fighters on any side in these conflicts don't use headset sights, wield a tricorder and phaser at the same time. They point with the phaser to hit what they aim at. A camouflage pattern allows you to break up your silhouette and keep you from being spotted as you approach a target. We have sights and special systems today and they are still barely used over see and shoot. So it still has its advantages versus most opponents.
(Yes anyone with different visual spectrum may spot them regardless.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I can see Camouflage being used for a Maco set. It kinda fits their style anyways. Plus they do offer it for the Romulans on the old Uniform set you can buy. I use that one on Tovan it really makes him look interesting. They have the Romulans use it, why not the Federation.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
There is nothing wrong with bringing a 25th Century take on camo pattern BDUs into the game.
Actually there is, as it goes against the established lore and developments in the fictional, imaginary future/universe that this game is suposed to be based upon.
Actually there is, as it goes against the established lore and developments in the fictional, imaginary future/universe that this game is suposed to be based upon.
Which precedent are you referring to?
That's where you would be incorrect. It does not go against established lore and developments. Maybe in your view of what Star Trek is all about. But not against canon.
As for your question, I can't believe you are actually asking that. But since I cannot assume that you are trolling, despite your proven knowledge of the various shows, I'll bite. I'm referring specifically to the MACO BDUs and web gear from "Enterprise", and the assault team uniform in Star Trek V (which included the classic "commando sweater" made famous by the British Army).
So, yeah. Futuristic military BDUs are Star Trek canon. Thus, go against nothing lore-wise.
There is no reason for them not to be in the game, other than the devs deciding not to include them.
That's where you would be incorrect. It does not go against established lore and developments. Maybe in your view of what Star Trek is all about. But not against canon.
As for your question, I can't believe you are actually asking that. But since I cannot assume that you are trolling, despite your proven knowledge of the various shows, I'll bite. I'm referring specifically to the MACO BDUs and web gear from "Enterprise", and the assault team uniform in Star Trek V (which included the classic "commando sweater" made famous by the British Army).
So, yeah. Futuristic military BDUs are Star Trek canon. Thus, go against nothing lore-wise.
There is no reason for them not to be in the game, other than the devs deciding not to include them.
Curiousity question: I have seen it on a few uniform threads that the Maco jumpsuit was made for the game and is in the assets. Was there ever a reason why it was made then not applied?
The only two reasons I can come up with are that it causes a glitch where if live things would be very broken. Or they do not have the likeness rights to use it and did not find out till it was mostly finished.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Camo is only useful in the context of camo in relation to en environment you will be operating in. This is why most modern militaries have DIFFERENT camo patterns and schemed to employ in different environments. You put someone in desert camo in the jungle, and the camo is not going to do a damn bit of good at its intended function (breaking up the image of the person wearing it). As such, even if you could implement camo, you would need seperate camos for the different environments you would be encountering on ships as well as planets. But, the potential areas of operations that star fleet personal will operate in is so wide, it makes camo generally pointless.
That's where you would be incorrect. It does not go against established lore and developments. Maybe in your view of what Star Trek is all about. But not against canon.
As for your question, I can't believe you are actually asking that. But since I cannot assume that you are trolling, despite your proven knowledge of the various shows, I'll bite. I'm referring specifically to the MACO BDUs and web gear from "Enterprise", and the assault team uniform in Star Trek V (which included the classic "commando sweater" made famous by the British Army).
So, yeah. Futuristic military BDUs are Star Trek canon. Thus, go against nothing lore-wise.
There is no reason for them not to be in the game, other than the devs deciding not to include them.
See also the "surface operations blacks" (novelverse term) worn by that one guy in DS9: "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Black with padding, with the divisional color reduced to a shoulder flash.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's where you would be incorrect. It does not go against established lore and developments. Maybe in your view of what Star Trek is all about. But not against canon.
I see this term thrown around the forum a lot - "your view of Trek", "your Trek", "Star Trek is different for different people" and such. There is only one Star Trek, that's the one we've all seen on the shows. I assume when Picard said 'engage', we all saw Picard say 'engage', or when Kirk got in a brawl, we all saw Kirk brawling.
My view of Star Trek is whatever I've seen on the official shows. I don't nitpick on something obvious - if it was on the shows, it's a part of Star Trek. Including or excluding camouflage uniforms amongs other things.
As for your question, I can't believe you are actually asking that. But since I cannot assume that you are trolling, despite your proven knowledge of the various shows, I'll bite. I'm referring specifically to the MACO BDUs and web gear from "Enterprise", and the assault team uniform in Star Trek V (which included the classic "commando sweater" made famous by the British Army).
Actually, I asked the question on purpose, but not because of trolling. I was 90% sure that you were talking about the MACO, however I gave that 10% chace that there is something I'm forgetting or missing, there are hundreds of ST episodes after all. And I was right to ask, since you mentioned the uniform in ST V, which I have completely forgotten to the level of needing to google it to see what you're talking about.
So about the MACO camo.....yes, it was in Star Trek, yes it is canon in a certain way. It's also out of context in the 25-th century Starfleet. They had MACOs in ENT, to portray that Humans are still pretty much Humans with a lot of heritage and the old habbits, while at the same time they try to progress into something different for the future, after encountering alien life and seeing the bigger picture in the galaxy.
Remember, the NX Class Enterprise was a Human ship. It was also the first and only one Earth had as a part of their pre-Federation "Starfleet". The writers wanted to slowly portray the step forward from Earth only into the Federation, so military style camo squads fit perfectly to show and establish the direction, especially if you consider that the ENT crew was uneasy with the MACOs around and Reed was clearly certain that his Starfleet security teams are completely prepared and trained for the job without the need of other military personel aboard the ship. Not saying the MACOs didn't do their job, just speaking of the context of having them in ENT.
And after seeing the pictures of the ST V uniform you mentioned, I'm somewhat confused. What I've seen doesn't asociate with camouflage wear to me.
What I'm saying is, if you guys that support this can bring me a proof that I have somehow forgetting or missing, about Starfleet sporting camouflage uniforms throughout their history - I'm all for it. I even support the TNG skant because it was in the shows.
However, these 2 examples just don't cut it. And I feel it goes pretty much against what Gene wanted Star Trek to portray or be about, but nevertheless - if it was in the shows, I accept it. I'm just still not seeing it so far.
So, yeah. Futuristic military BDUs are Star Trek canon. Thus, go against nothing lore-wise.
There is no reason for them not to be in the game, other than the devs deciding not to include them.
Given that STO is a cacaphony of all kinds of weird uniforms, without paying some particular respect to uniform codes or even the era the uniforms come from, I got nothing against having the MACO uniforms in STO. Heck, I'm actually a big fan of ENT, I'd like them for myself since I already own everything that's availible from that show.
However, I have an issue with accepting that military BDUs are ST canon in the timeframe we're in, unless I see a proof that would point otherwise.
It is totatlly logical for ground troops to be classically camouflaged even in the 25th century.
Why wouldn't they? A soldier needs to be prepared. To replicate a red uniform or a camouflaged BDU does take the same ressources/energy.
So why put your soldiers in ridiculous uniforms when you can put them into BDUs? Because modern sensors render BDUs irrelevant?
In many situations perhaps, but not in all. There are dampening fields, ion storms, atmospheric interference and all kinds of stuff interfering with sensors of all kinds and on all levels imaginable.
Of course you would want as much camouflage for your soldier as possible, even if he uses a personal cloaking device, personal shields etc etc.
Putting on a frickin' BDU does cost nothing but it gives you a distinct advantage in certain combat situations.
It is totatlly logical for ground troops to be classically camouflaged even in the 25th century.
Why wouldn't they? A soldier needs to be prepared. To replicate a red uniform or a camouflaged BDU does take the same ressources/energy.
So why put your soldiers in ridiculous uniforms when you can put them into BDUs? Because modern sensors render BDUs irrelevant?
In many situations perhaps, but not in all. There are dampening fields, ion storms, atmospheric interference and all kinds of stuff interfering with sensors of all kinds and on all levels imaginable.
Of course you would want as much camouflage for your soldier as possible, even if he uses a personal cloaking device, personal shields etc etc.
Putting on a frickin' BDU does cost nothing but it gives you a distinct advantage in certain combat situations.
Because we're not discussing logic or what seems the natural progression of things from our 2014 point of view. We're discussing about a fictional universe created out of imagination, that could or couldn't have anything the ones responsible for it's creation say so.
We're not looking for "totally logical" things from our own POV here. Heck, from a current POV I highy doubt a Human starship would look like the Federation ships look in Star Trek. It's imaginary, fictional. And if the creators of that fictional universe didn't seem fit to have certain things, even though some people see it as logical or natural, then those things have no place in that fiction. It's as simple as that.
I'm sure you don't complain to Lucas, or now Disney, about a Jedi being able to defend against blaster fire from an entire army with a single sword, because "it's not logical".
Again, unless someome brings a proof on the table that Starfleet actively sported camo uniforms throughout their existance, I'm on the side of camo-uniforms having no place in a 25-th century Starfleet.
Because we're not discussing logic or what seems the natural progression of things from our 2014 point of view. We're discussing about a fictional universe created out of imagination, that could or couldn't have anything the ones responsible for it's creation say so.
We're not looking for "totally logical" things from our own POV here. Heck, from a current POV I highy doubt a Human starship would look like the Federation ships look in Star Trek. It's imaginary, fictional. And if the creators of that fictional universe didn't seem fit to have certain things, even though some people see it as logical or natural, then those things have no place in that fiction. It's as simple as that.
I'm sure you don't complain to Lucas, or now Disney, about a Jedi being able to defend against blaster fire from an entire army with a single sword, because "it's not logical".
Again, unless someome brings a proof on the table that Starfleet actively sported camo uniforms throughout their existance, I'm on the side of camo-uniforms having no place in a 25-th century Starfleet.
A BDU would be closer to canon (MACO) then the Mass Effect armors cryptic is adding en masse.
Since you can't point me to them being in the series at all (wheter 22nd, 23rd or 24th century)... I don't see the point.
We are talking about STO, to be precise. And camouflaged uniforms in STO.
If Cryptic puts ME-esque uniforms into the game, they can also put in some BDUs.
Besides, Trek was always about extrapolation. Without thinking ahead of what we see on the shows, very little would make any sense at all.
Curiousity question: I have seen it on a few uniform threads that the Maco jumpsuit was made for the game and is in the assets. Was there ever a reason why it was made then not applied?
The only two reasons I can come up with are that it causes a glitch where if live things would be very broken. Or they do not have the likeness rights to use it and did not find out till it was mostly finished.
i don't know why they did not add it, but it is finished. here's some pics from Tribble some VERY long time ago that shows the uniform in the old character creator:
A BDU would be closer to canon (MACO) then the Mass Effect armors cryptic is adding en masse.
Since you can't point me to them being in the series at all (wheter 22nd, 23rd or 24th century)... I don't see the point.
Oh, don't get me started on those. I completely agree with you in terms of all the silly armors that should have no place in a Star Trek environment.
We are talking about STO, to be precise. And camouflaged uniforms in STO.
If Cryptic puts ME-esque uniforms into the game, they can also put in some BDUs.
Besides, Trek was always about extrapolation. Without thinking ahead of what we see on the shows, very little would make any sense at all.
Maybe I needed to be a bit more clear - what I'm talking against is the assumption that logical progression of certain things must be present in a fictional universe like Star Trek. Such as the assumption that it's logical to have that type of outfits in a 25-th century Starfleet, even though the shows indicated that it's not the practice anymore. I'm talking about the Star Trek universe.
STO, on the other hand......yeah....:rolleyes: It's quite the mess. Like I previously said, since we have uniforms of all eras in STO, having the MACO ones is natural in this game. This game lore-wise and IP-wise is such a mess that I gave up caring anymore after Season 9. I still don't like people trying to justify adding more silliness because there's a number of stupid things already in the game, but have a go at it if you like it in the game. It's hard to really care about the lore and staying true to the franchise in 2014 STO.
Oh, don't get me started on those. I completely agree with you in terms of all the silly armors that should have no place in a Star Trek environment.
Maybe I needed to be a bit more clear - what I'm talking against is the assumption that logical progression of certain things must be present in a fictional universe like Star Trek. Such as the assumption that it's logical to have that type of outfits in a 25-th century Starfleet, even though the shows indicated that it's not the practice anymore. I'm talking about the Star Trek universe.
STO, on the other hand......yeah....:rolleyes: It's quite the mess. Like I previously said, since we have uniforms of all eras in STO, having the MACO ones is natural in this game. This game lore-wise and IP-wise is such a mess that I gave up caring anymore after Season 9. I still don't like people trying to justify adding more silliness because there's a number of stupid things already in the game, but have a go at it if you like it in the game. It's hard to really care about the lore and staying true to the franchise in 2014 STO.
I attempted your challenge. All I found were the Ent era maco uniforms. Which I agree would be great if they released them.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
i think you just broke the code to the ultimate stealth detection system! :eek:
Visual camouflage is still a factor if people are dirt-side looking for you. Scramblers alone won't always hide you.
Seriously. You expect MACOs operatives to launch an operation wearing pink tutus? Or that their camo BDUs are just for looks?
In real life, in this age of FLIR, hi-rez digital satellite technology, and drones, the armed forces of the world's military forces still use camo for a reason. And it's not just to look cool or badass. There is no reason, in my opinion, that the same couldn't fit in the Star Trek universe.
Yet oddly enough the vast majority of fighters on any side in these conflicts don't use headset sights, wield a tricorder and phaser at the same time. They point with the phaser to hit what they aim at. A camouflage pattern allows you to break up your silhouette and keep you from being spotted as you approach a target. We have sights and special systems today and they are still barely used over see and shoot. So it still has its advantages versus most opponents.
(Yes anyone with different visual spectrum may spot them regardless.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Sure, bring on the camouflage, why not. :rolleyes: Followed by a patch that brings AK-47 in the C-Store, shortly followed by a Leopard 2A5.
There is nothing wrong with bringing a 25th Century take on camo pattern BDUs into the game.
As I said before, there is canon precedent for it.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Actually there is, as it goes against the established lore and developments in the fictional, imaginary future/universe that this game is suposed to be based upon.
Which precedent are you referring to?
That's where you would be incorrect. It does not go against established lore and developments. Maybe in your view of what Star Trek is all about. But not against canon.
As for your question, I can't believe you are actually asking that. But since I cannot assume that you are trolling, despite your proven knowledge of the various shows, I'll bite. I'm referring specifically to the MACO BDUs and web gear from "Enterprise", and the assault team uniform in Star Trek V (which included the classic "commando sweater" made famous by the British Army).
So, yeah. Futuristic military BDUs are Star Trek canon. Thus, go against nothing lore-wise.
There is no reason for them not to be in the game, other than the devs deciding not to include them.
Curiousity question: I have seen it on a few uniform threads that the Maco jumpsuit was made for the game and is in the assets. Was there ever a reason why it was made then not applied?
The only two reasons I can come up with are that it causes a glitch where if live things would be very broken. Or they do not have the likeness rights to use it and did not find out till it was mostly finished.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
See also the "surface operations blacks" (novelverse term) worn by that one guy in DS9: "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Black with padding, with the divisional color reduced to a shoulder flash.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I see this term thrown around the forum a lot - "your view of Trek", "your Trek", "Star Trek is different for different people" and such. There is only one Star Trek, that's the one we've all seen on the shows. I assume when Picard said 'engage', we all saw Picard say 'engage', or when Kirk got in a brawl, we all saw Kirk brawling.
My view of Star Trek is whatever I've seen on the official shows. I don't nitpick on something obvious - if it was on the shows, it's a part of Star Trek. Including or excluding camouflage uniforms amongs other things.
Actually, I asked the question on purpose, but not because of trolling. I was 90% sure that you were talking about the MACO, however I gave that 10% chace that there is something I'm forgetting or missing, there are hundreds of ST episodes after all.
So about the MACO camo.....yes, it was in Star Trek, yes it is canon in a certain way. It's also out of context in the 25-th century Starfleet. They had MACOs in ENT, to portray that Humans are still pretty much Humans with a lot of heritage and the old habbits, while at the same time they try to progress into something different for the future, after encountering alien life and seeing the bigger picture in the galaxy.
Remember, the NX Class Enterprise was a Human ship. It was also the first and only one Earth had as a part of their pre-Federation "Starfleet". The writers wanted to slowly portray the step forward from Earth only into the Federation, so military style camo squads fit perfectly to show and establish the direction, especially if you consider that the ENT crew was uneasy with the MACOs around and Reed was clearly certain that his Starfleet security teams are completely prepared and trained for the job without the need of other military personel aboard the ship. Not saying the MACOs didn't do their job, just speaking of the context of having them in ENT.
And after seeing the pictures of the ST V uniform you mentioned, I'm somewhat confused. What I've seen doesn't asociate with camouflage wear to me.
What I'm saying is, if you guys that support this can bring me a proof that I have somehow forgetting or missing, about Starfleet sporting camouflage uniforms throughout their history - I'm all for it. I even support the TNG skant because it was in the shows.
However, these 2 examples just don't cut it. And I feel it goes pretty much against what Gene wanted Star Trek to portray or be about, but nevertheless - if it was in the shows, I accept it. I'm just still not seeing it so far.
Given that STO is a cacaphony of all kinds of weird uniforms, without paying some particular respect to uniform codes or even the era the uniforms come from, I got nothing against having the MACO uniforms in STO. Heck, I'm actually a big fan of ENT, I'd like them for myself since I already own everything that's availible from that show.
However, I have an issue with accepting that military BDUs are ST canon in the timeframe we're in, unless I see a proof that would point otherwise.
Why wouldn't they? A soldier needs to be prepared. To replicate a red uniform or a camouflaged BDU does take the same ressources/energy.
So why put your soldiers in ridiculous uniforms when you can put them into BDUs? Because modern sensors render BDUs irrelevant?
In many situations perhaps, but not in all. There are dampening fields, ion storms, atmospheric interference and all kinds of stuff interfering with sensors of all kinds and on all levels imaginable.
Of course you would want as much camouflage for your soldier as possible, even if he uses a personal cloaking device, personal shields etc etc.
Putting on a frickin' BDU does cost nothing but it gives you a distinct advantage in certain combat situations.
Because we're not discussing logic or what seems the natural progression of things from our 2014 point of view. We're discussing about a fictional universe created out of imagination, that could or couldn't have anything the ones responsible for it's creation say so.
We're not looking for "totally logical" things from our own POV here. Heck, from a current POV I highy doubt a Human starship would look like the Federation ships look in Star Trek. It's imaginary, fictional. And if the creators of that fictional universe didn't seem fit to have certain things, even though some people see it as logical or natural, then those things have no place in that fiction. It's as simple as that.
I'm sure you don't complain to Lucas, or now Disney, about a Jedi being able to defend against blaster fire from an entire army with a single sword, because "it's not logical".
Again, unless someome brings a proof on the table that Starfleet actively sported camo uniforms throughout their existance, I'm on the side of camo-uniforms having no place in a 25-th century Starfleet.
A BDU would be closer to canon (MACO) then the Mass Effect armors cryptic is adding en masse.
Since you can't point me to them being in the series at all (wheter 22nd, 23rd or 24th century)... I don't see the point.
We are talking about STO, to be precise. And camouflaged uniforms in STO.
If Cryptic puts ME-esque uniforms into the game, they can also put in some BDUs.
Besides, Trek was always about extrapolation. Without thinking ahead of what we see on the shows, very little would make any sense at all.
i don't know why they did not add it, but it is finished. here's some pics from Tribble some VERY long time ago that shows the uniform in the old character creator:
http://www.unimatrix-sto.net/USERIMAGES/entmaco1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5IEPliw.png
http://www.unimatrix-sto.net/USERIMAGES/entmaco2.jpg
Oh, don't get me started on those.
Maybe I needed to be a bit more clear - what I'm talking against is the assumption that logical progression of certain things must be present in a fictional universe like Star Trek. Such as the assumption that it's logical to have that type of outfits in a 25-th century Starfleet, even though the shows indicated that it's not the practice anymore. I'm talking about the Star Trek universe.
STO, on the other hand......yeah....:rolleyes: It's quite the mess. Like I previously said, since we have uniforms of all eras in STO, having the MACO ones is natural in this game. This game lore-wise and IP-wise is such a mess that I gave up caring anymore after Season 9. I still don't like people trying to justify adding more silliness because there's a number of stupid things already in the game, but have a go at it if you like it in the game. It's hard to really care about the lore and staying true to the franchise in 2014 STO.
I attempted your challenge. All I found were the Ent era maco uniforms. Which I agree would be great if they released them.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Even more, would he/she/it *still* be able to be called a "redshirt"?
....what..? It's perfectly valid for Mars.
Enterprise, MACO teams wore camo.. so its canon.. but there also forgetting its earth military not Star Fleet.
http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200310/ent-061-maco/320x240.jpg
http://indo-startrek.org/v2/messhall/uniform/MACO_uniform2.jpg
http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/736x/5b/fb/33/5bfb3345a77b386aa1472bb6d8fda841.jpg
So ya its canon for earth military.. it make sense that the "maco" armor would have a camo pattern to honor the 1st maco team on Enterprise.
But other then a earth military special force's team on Enterprise there is no other time I have seen camo pattern in Star Trek.