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Just a tank
woodwhity
Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
Now, after some time of DPS-only Monbosh-runs I thought it would be nice to make a very sturdy ship again (not that that Monbosh had any problems surviving), and as its usual, you go like a pendulum from one side to the other. So instead of making a ship near the edge, I went to make a very solid ship that is a real tank.
Whats a tank?
Now, why do I say "real tank"? Because normally ppl call a ship that is very sturdy and doesnt die a tank. While its half the truth, its usually fundamentally wrong. Because there are two requirements:
1. Take aggro from everything and hold it
2. Dont die
Most self-proclaimed tanks I see in (mainly) pugs have the issue, that the first requirement isnt fullfilled, meaning they are simply junk in space with little merrit for the team.
The second requirement is a mix of threat-controll-skill and dps. I dont have the post at hand, but a dev once said its pretty much threat*dps=total threat. So if you lack dps, you have to add threat and vice versa.
For threat there are multiple ways to achieve high threat:
-Embassy consoles
-AP Delta with Doff (up to 3)
-Attract-Fire Cruiser-Command
I use the first and third option, as I dislike deltas CD/active time and favorise Beta. Thanks to DPS I can do that.
The ship
As an obvious choice of a good tank the Science Odyssey comes to mind, as the Ody is pretty much the pinnacle of tankiness. I use two different setups:
For usual stuff:
Well, high power levels are pretty much a no-brainer, though credit for that train of thought goes to Wellington, a fleetmate of mine, who uses a similar config with Energy siphon to really go beyound reasonable amounts of Energy. GAWAIN might seem similar, but unfortunately came second chronologically.
There is also a Hive-Variant, switching Beta with Delta (but without doffs) and 2 Space traits.
While active Hull hardening really seems to be quite good when you have low shields and degreading hull, Emergendary secondary shielding gives quite a heal on shields. I pugged last STF with said fleetmate, and had 44k heal from it alone. While not usable on usual stuff, it really performs well in hive.
Both setups feature 3damage control engineers, 2 conn-officers and 1 certain Warpcore engineer named Keelel, quite nice actually in hive, clearing multiple Plasmaburns, viral matrixes and subnuks at once (no wonder pvp-ers hate it^^).
Discussion
Now, seeing the ship, several points come to mind:
Traits
Q: Why no momentum, Pattern recognition, Nanoprobe Field generator and inspirational leader?
A: Well, I can see Momentum in that build, though with helmsman already installed it could be neglected. Pattern recognition is too weak, as I already have massive shieldresistencies (EptS3, 125 Shieldpower, Elite Fleet Shield), so its not needed. Same applies to Nanoprobe field generator. Both might be nice on escorts or other ships with low shieldpower setting and EPtS, but if you already got high Res the bonus from them is simply neglectible. And leader is simply to expensive for its worth.
Gear
Q: Only one Fieldgen and Resilient shields, isnt that too little shieldcap?
A: 10,9k shieldcap is enough due to high shieldres and regenerative abilities (EptS, TSS, RSF, RSP, Biomolecular Shieldgen). Of course more would make it saver, but actually its not needed, as I still havent died in it yet.
If the new crafting consoles go down a bit, Ill replace the single Fieldgen with one of them.
Q: Only one Neutronium, isnt this too little hullresistencies?
A: Standing still, I have 36,4% hullres. One could debate that one more neutronium might be better, however, for 2/3 of the time I have a 125Aux-Aux2Sif 3, which gives me hull res amounting for 2 neutroniums AND 10,497 Heal every 15sec. With it active I am near 60% hullres. As the only STF you really need high hullres is hive, I use APD and active hull hardening-trait, which also gives quite the res. So its not really needed, as even without shields it can still take a few its.
Q: What will you do if tomorrow plasmonic leech wouldnt be enhanced by flowcap-skill?
A: Switching them for emitter arrays, which I already have. Ody was tanky before plasmonic, it will be after.
Q: How much DPS can you expect from it?
A: As dps is also important for threat, and since I know some high-dps-ers I geared toward it, its a solid 15k in a ISE Pug-run. Ive also had 20k in a premade, but I dislike naming one time records. So 15k in ISE, and 10-15k in every other STF, with 10k being from Hive-pug.
Q: Can you make it even tankier without sacrificing much DPS?
A: If you sacrifice your attack patterns, its quite doable, though I dont think you gain much compared to the hive-build. Some console swap could also be done, but BO-Switch is faster, easier and cheaper, especially for testing. Though while you also increase your possible healsupport, you take away your damagesupport. I never tested that variant, as the hive-one is enough for hive (and hence for everything), so more tankiness wasnt on my list.
Q: Where are the limits?
A: Well, of course flightstyle is a limit: You have to stay in front of the group, so you have aggro nearly 100% of the time. You can also check it later in combatlogreader, if it would have been possible for someone to die from the received damage. If a vesta only receives 30k over the whole match, it couldnt have died, and you did a very good job. In Hive you simply must think: I nobody died during the Cube-sphere-onslaught, you did a good job.
Another limit are AoE-Attacks and playererrors. Torpedospreads in hive are not tankable, as well as Feedbackpulse. Of course you can easily survive it, but you can get all the damage to you. So Unimatrixships and Queen are not really tankable, as you cant take all parts of a spread onto yourself. The queen also has a random target-choosing, so thats another limit.
Warpcore breaches and players actively flying in one (=Error) are also outside your jurisdiction.
Performance
As already stated, depending on STF 10-15k in a pug are possible. Currently I didnt die in over 6 Hive-runs, 2 being pugs (1 with a very bad pug). Every other STF is tankable with ease, so Hive should be the testing area for a tank. Of course you need to check the damageIn in combatlogreader, as stated above: If you dont have aggro and hence get a beating, its not a tank.
Q: Will there be a healer next:
A real 100% healer: No, not happening. In good groups normal cross-heal is enough and in bad ones you are better of doing as much damage as you can do. And of course, in bad ones you dont really have any targets to heal. Healing bad players is like throwing pearls before swine.
I already have a torpboat-drain-attrox, which has some healabilities, but that is pretty much as far as I would go.
The Tank was a good call, because a Tank needs DPS too to draw and hold aggro, so its a perfect synthesis. Try the same with a healer and in pugs you need all your heals yourself, which isnt the definition of an healer.
P.S.: Any arrogance or elitism one might read isnt intentionally and especially not meant to offend.
P.P.S: Of course its a setup for me, so if one wants to adapt it for his/her use, then of course there might be a need for one or two changes in gear (res&cap).
Whats a tank?
Now, why do I say "real tank"? Because normally ppl call a ship that is very sturdy and doesnt die a tank. While its half the truth, its usually fundamentally wrong. Because there are two requirements:
1. Take aggro from everything and hold it
2. Dont die
Most self-proclaimed tanks I see in (mainly) pugs have the issue, that the first requirement isnt fullfilled, meaning they are simply junk in space with little merrit for the team.
The second requirement is a mix of threat-controll-skill and dps. I dont have the post at hand, but a dev once said its pretty much threat*dps=total threat. So if you lack dps, you have to add threat and vice versa.
For threat there are multiple ways to achieve high threat:
-Embassy consoles
-AP Delta with Doff (up to 3)
-Attract-Fire Cruiser-Command
I use the first and third option, as I dislike deltas CD/active time and favorise Beta. Thanks to DPS I can do that.
The ship
As an obvious choice of a good tank the Science Odyssey comes to mind, as the Ody is pretty much the pinnacle of tankiness. I use two different setups:
For usual stuff:
Well, high power levels are pretty much a no-brainer, though credit for that train of thought goes to Wellington, a fleetmate of mine, who uses a similar config with Energy siphon to really go beyound reasonable amounts of Energy. GAWAIN might seem similar, but unfortunately came second chronologically.
There is also a Hive-Variant, switching Beta with Delta (but without doffs) and 2 Space traits.
While active Hull hardening really seems to be quite good when you have low shields and degreading hull, Emergendary secondary shielding gives quite a heal on shields. I pugged last STF with said fleetmate, and had 44k heal from it alone. While not usable on usual stuff, it really performs well in hive.
Both setups feature 3damage control engineers, 2 conn-officers and 1 certain Warpcore engineer named Keelel, quite nice actually in hive, clearing multiple Plasmaburns, viral matrixes and subnuks at once (no wonder pvp-ers hate it^^).
Discussion
Now, seeing the ship, several points come to mind:
Traits
Q: Why no momentum, Pattern recognition, Nanoprobe Field generator and inspirational leader?
A: Well, I can see Momentum in that build, though with helmsman already installed it could be neglected. Pattern recognition is too weak, as I already have massive shieldresistencies (EptS3, 125 Shieldpower, Elite Fleet Shield), so its not needed. Same applies to Nanoprobe field generator. Both might be nice on escorts or other ships with low shieldpower setting and EPtS, but if you already got high Res the bonus from them is simply neglectible. And leader is simply to expensive for its worth.
Gear
Q: Only one Fieldgen and Resilient shields, isnt that too little shieldcap?
A: 10,9k shieldcap is enough due to high shieldres and regenerative abilities (EptS, TSS, RSF, RSP, Biomolecular Shieldgen). Of course more would make it saver, but actually its not needed, as I still havent died in it yet.
If the new crafting consoles go down a bit, Ill replace the single Fieldgen with one of them.
Q: Only one Neutronium, isnt this too little hullresistencies?
A: Standing still, I have 36,4% hullres. One could debate that one more neutronium might be better, however, for 2/3 of the time I have a 125Aux-Aux2Sif 3, which gives me hull res amounting for 2 neutroniums AND 10,497 Heal every 15sec. With it active I am near 60% hullres. As the only STF you really need high hullres is hive, I use APD and active hull hardening-trait, which also gives quite the res. So its not really needed, as even without shields it can still take a few its.
Q: What will you do if tomorrow plasmonic leech wouldnt be enhanced by flowcap-skill?
A: Switching them for emitter arrays, which I already have. Ody was tanky before plasmonic, it will be after.
Q: How much DPS can you expect from it?
A: As dps is also important for threat, and since I know some high-dps-ers I geared toward it, its a solid 15k in a ISE Pug-run. Ive also had 20k in a premade, but I dislike naming one time records. So 15k in ISE, and 10-15k in every other STF, with 10k being from Hive-pug.
Q: Can you make it even tankier without sacrificing much DPS?
A: If you sacrifice your attack patterns, its quite doable, though I dont think you gain much compared to the hive-build. Some console swap could also be done, but BO-Switch is faster, easier and cheaper, especially for testing. Though while you also increase your possible healsupport, you take away your damagesupport. I never tested that variant, as the hive-one is enough for hive (and hence for everything), so more tankiness wasnt on my list.
Q: Where are the limits?
A: Well, of course flightstyle is a limit: You have to stay in front of the group, so you have aggro nearly 100% of the time. You can also check it later in combatlogreader, if it would have been possible for someone to die from the received damage. If a vesta only receives 30k over the whole match, it couldnt have died, and you did a very good job. In Hive you simply must think: I nobody died during the Cube-sphere-onslaught, you did a good job.
Another limit are AoE-Attacks and playererrors. Torpedospreads in hive are not tankable, as well as Feedbackpulse. Of course you can easily survive it, but you can get all the damage to you. So Unimatrixships and Queen are not really tankable, as you cant take all parts of a spread onto yourself. The queen also has a random target-choosing, so thats another limit.
Warpcore breaches and players actively flying in one (=Error) are also outside your jurisdiction.
Performance
As already stated, depending on STF 10-15k in a pug are possible. Currently I didnt die in over 6 Hive-runs, 2 being pugs (1 with a very bad pug). Every other STF is tankable with ease, so Hive should be the testing area for a tank. Of course you need to check the damageIn in combatlogreader, as stated above: If you dont have aggro and hence get a beating, its not a tank.
Q: Will there be a healer next:
A real 100% healer: No, not happening. In good groups normal cross-heal is enough and in bad ones you are better of doing as much damage as you can do. And of course, in bad ones you dont really have any targets to heal. Healing bad players is like throwing pearls before swine.
I already have a torpboat-drain-attrox, which has some healabilities, but that is pretty much as far as I would go.
The Tank was a good call, because a Tank needs DPS too to draw and hold aggro, so its a perfect synthesis. Try the same with a healer and in pugs you need all your heals yourself, which isnt the definition of an healer.
P.S.: Any arrogance or elitism one might read isnt intentionally and especially not meant to offend.
P.P.S: Of course its a setup for me, so if one wants to adapt it for his/her use, then of course there might be a need for one or two changes in gear (res&cap).
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
I have some questions though.
Since you are an engineer, why the need for three flow capacitors to buff plasmotic leech?
You shouldn't have any big power problems in the first place IMO.
I find 15K DPS very high TBH, i assume you have a team and don't PUG?
Would adding the [Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher] and [Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array] reduce your DSP too much to be useful anymore? (at least 2 parts of that set, to get the +7.6% Plasma Damage bonus)
Personally i like to have some torps at hand, just to make the game feel a bit like trek.
Alltogether a VERY good build IMO!
The issue with being the team tank, as you've described already. is to have enough DPS to go along with threat generation to take and hold aggro from multiple baddies simultaneously. As my fleetmates improved their builds, some of my tank ships couldn't hold aggro consistently enough and I had to adjust. The fleet Galaxy gave way to the Galaxy Dreadnought, for example. Heck, I stopped using the D'Deridex, one of the better tanks I ran at one time, for the scimitar. Yes, even using a scimitar with an engineer toon can work as a tank. Miracle worker, quantum absorption, and subspace field modulator can go a long way to helping to mitigate the scimitar's lack of healing abilities while putting out good DPS to take aggro.
My experience is that, for example, if your best player in a STF is running at around 20k DPS, your tank ship has to be able to attain a minimum DPS of around 15k DPS, plus the threat abilities and threat skill, to overcome the extra damage your best player attains or you won't hold aggro all the time. So, if you can put out 75% of the better players DPS, there is no reason you can't tank if you have the playstyle and the ship for it. When you don't hold aggro anymore, you have to shift to using your heals to keep others alive, and you aren't as effective. When you hold aggro, your buddies can have those full tilt, all out tac builds with little to no heals, and romp in missions. If they happen to have a heal or two, they might even use them on you to support you and your tank role. Think of it as their odd way of showing their appreciation for taking the aggro for them.
It's a case of "the more the merrier" when it comes to power imo.
He's already got the rom console, so he could just slap on the exp beam for the 2 piece bonus and be done. I don't think it's a dps loss at all, given that it's effectively a power drain free beam.
It's a decent build, indeed. However, I think there are far too many maxed out skills in the tree. I would definitely aim to have 6/9 in things like engine performance, aux performance, batteries etc. As an eng with that much in the leech, you could probably do without core efficiency completely.
I never thought of using the ens uni as a sci to be honest. I always kept it as an eng slot and kept the EPTx powers to ensign level, freeing up the ltcmdr slot for something like aux 2 damp.
OP, I used to run a similar build on a tac oddy before moving on to a fleet ambassador, which has a similar layout but greater somewhat greater agility. Have you considered trying that? The fleet ambo has inertia on par with the fleet excelsior iirc, as well as having a base turn rate on par with a sovereign. Though you would sacrifice the ltcmdr tac in favour of a ltcmdr sci and the shield mod drops to 1.1. Having the lt uni as a tac would enable you to have just as many tac boff slots, though you wouldn't be able to run beta 2.
The thing that drew me to the ambo, was the ltcmdr sci that enabled me to do a little crowd control on top of the regular tanking. A high aux GW1 certainly helped keep the enemy right where I wanted them in relation to myself and my team mates. Something that is a breath easier in the ambo than in the oddy I used to run.
One last thing, have you considered trying the 8472 engine instead of the borg engine and running the borg shield with the borg deflector for the 2 piece? The lower capacity and resilience might be noticeable, I don't know, but the extra speed, turn and inertia from the 8472 engine might help you out with positioning. Being a hyper engine, it would certainly make better use of the high power levels you will doubtless have!
Of course I dont, but more power is always better^^ And since I want to keep aggro at all times, I need high threat, so it comes down flowcap vs. emitter array, and I favor flowcap of the two. Holding aggro also means that you still have it after drifting out of firing range, so I need to have a reservoir at the enemy, so the more aggro the better in this case. But yes, you could easily slot a second fieldgen or something else.
Like I mentioned, 15k were the minimum dps in a real pug. Of course here it comes down to the player, and I tend to have dps in every ship I fly, so it seems I incooperated some DPS-Playstyle. But 10-15k should be doable for everyone flying this build.
As for the gear: Torp no, I wouldnt do this. I have two ships with torps, one being an escort (2xTS3 or HY3) and one Torpedo Attrox. There you either need it for synergies (Drain-Attrox) or can go all-out with them, on a Ody a torp ability would cut down the rest, and if you can shoot it, the other beam-side wouldnt (gate and unimatrix ships aside), so I dont do something like this. Its just not in my concept of optimization
As for the beam, that one is implemented, though the 2pc-Bonus is base, so only 2,x% flat damage increase. But the beam is nice on itself. I just forgot it in skillplanner.
TY
Well, I think it simply comes down to threat being a modifier. So its best to keep your team together, so they get -50 threat while you gain +100 due to "attract fire". Out of experience the multiplier added to your dps should be something like threat control/100. So especially the Attract-Fire command helps here. If my assumption is correct, my threat is 3 times my dps (dps+2xx thread control/100), so virtually I should be able to take threat of any ships within 30-45k dps, if it doesnt slot -th-consoles and isnt within 5km to myself. But thats merely an assumption on my part, so I tried to have a good dps to start with (saves me from many tests^^).
If someone gets aggro for some times, I can also heal him, so a tank is very versatile.
Especially on hive is best to stay together, not only can the tank really get all aggro, he can also use teammates scattering field, biomolecular fieldgen and such, and like you say, the others have their heals free to toss at you if you get too much attention.
Unfortunately the AP doffs are out of reach for the average player, going for 55mil each last time I checked. I don't have them, but I'd think that my DPS would likely go higher with them.
While I'm not a real tank, I appreciate this topic.
STO Screenshot Archive
Al in all, good stuff. Most stuff in the forums tends to have a DPS tilt, and it should. It's even part of making a good tank, so it matters. If your play style suits the tank role, you can make STFs run much better for some folks, especially the randomly joined variety, and your teammates may have no clue you are doing it. Good tanks don't normally get the recognition for what they do.
Not AP-Doffs, TT-Doffs, they should be less than 10mio, most likely less than 5 atm.
The performance-skills doesnt bring you much, and cost more. I could train EWP, EptA3 and such, but thats abilities that are rarely needed, especially if you dont pvp. Batteries are the only thing I would consider.
The Ambassador would be a valid choice. However, I own the Ody but not it, so it didnt come into consideration. I guess you could be pretty equal to the Ody. However, I miss a fourth Sci console and sensor analyses (main point of choosing Sci Ody over Tac one).
As for the turn and intertia, flying a bortas, recluse and Attrox, the Ody comes close to an escort for me^^
But yes, should perform nearly the same to the Ody, a bit less dps, therefor a bit CC. But I find the Ody looks better, and more majestic
Sure, all other ships fly with non-borg atm, but I figured if I go full tank, I could as well use it. While unnoticeable in usual stuff, you will see the impact of it in Hive
P.S.: As I go full tank, I use EptS3 and not EptW3. While it would increase my dps quite a bit, its not really fitting for a tank. And well, with Hive as performance test, the difference between EptS1 and 3 are quite clear. For usual stuff its neglectible.
Odd, because the recluse has a higher impulse modifier and better inertia than most cruisers iirc, oddy included..
I've found that the oddy has grown on me over time, though I still find it to be one of the uglier ships in sto. Definitely not the ugliest mind you, but far from the prettiest.
Nonononono, I'm not talking about dumping borg 2 piece heal. I'm talking about swapping the shield for the borg shield and swapping the engine for the 8472 engine. You'd still get the 2 piece heal, but from the shield/deflector combo rather than the conventional engine/deflector combo. You would also get the inertia boost from that engine plus you'd be making better use of the high engine power. It would make the boat a little more responsive and easier to handle, making it less of a hassle to change position when required.
EDIT
I forgot to mention the +5% defence that comes with that engine.
EDIT2
Looking at the 8472 set, there's the 2 piece "enhanced defence" bonus which looks useful, especially as the core boosts engine power. A shame that the 8472 core doesn't have the [amp] bonus of the mine cores
EDIT3
I've been thinking of updating my eng tank build lately. I'm glad you popped up with your build
That one is noticeable, I first encountered it when my Vesta bumped up a few k, and while I dont have a 1 to 1 comparison, a fleetmate simply changed from tac Ody to Sci and also increased 1-2k. It was really a nice buff for sci ships (and some other fortunate ones^^). I would like to see it on the Attrox too.
Of course you have to toggle it and make effective choices on targets. I usually give them on the cubes, transformers, gate and taccube in ISE. After the cube is done, the generators are down quite fast, but normally not fast enough to get at least 3 stacks on the transformer before you can really kill it.
Might be nice if one has problems with turnrate, but I dislike the Borg Shield, or regenerative Shields as a whole. They offer too little cap (and in this case Res), for a bit more shieldregen every 6 seconds. They can work on Sci ships, but I get better results with resilient/covariant on Cruisers and Escorts. I also think the impact on switching might be noticeable in hive. Then on the shield-side instead of hull.
A shame the feds don't have a 3 or 4 tac console boat with 8 weapons and SA in the same way the klingons do with the sci bortas.
I never liked glass cannons, the most satisfying experience is to survive a hard mission without dying once and to dish out some decent damage, even some hard hitting spike damage.
I have experienced a lot of those 20-30k DPS folks in a STF to know they are ruining the whole fun for everyone else.
Don't get me wrong i find the whole idea of "healboats" totally out of place and i would never fly one. But on the other hand, a almost indestructible tank sounds interesting.
The only thing i'm pondering about is the lack of offense.
Don't get me wrong i understand the concept of a "tank" but being almost teethless doesn't sound very fun TBH. I know it's 15k DPS, but i never reached numbers that high, no matter what i do, lol.
I rather be more efficient when it comes to damage. I never understood the excitement of just raising some numbers, i'd prefer to be able to deal some "killing blows", if you know what i mean.
I know exactly what you mean; I have found the most enjoyable playstyle so far is a sci boat with a torp build running max aux; it's satisfying to end fights real quick after you set things up.
That being said, I am going to set up a KDF sci with a slight variation of this build in a sci Bort, it gels a character concept rather well.
Isnt that something an escort can do? I prefer flying my escorts on CRF for ISE, if I dont know the team (so I can presume we dont have GW and I am the only one over 10k. Might sound arrogant, but everyone who pugs should know what I mean). That is pinpointed, high-dps on a single target, and is somewaht like *snip* dead it is. CSV can do the same for groups, which is why its used especially in nws and prevails in CSE. Though here with good positioning you can even avoid doing "dead"-damage(meaning you damage isnt instantly healed again).
Similarly I dont usually use FAW in CSE with pugs, as I get 3 target I can damage and 4 i cant (upper row+cube), while I go FAW with fleet/Dps-chans, as everything dies quickly and at the very least I can apply APB to all enemies. With pugs I concentrate on firing on the lower row and destroy it before going on the upper row. Here I use faw, as 3 of 4 enemies are now damage-able and I can take them down nearly at the same time, so I dont have to fight too long with Neghvar, Raptor and Cube. At least not so long against an invulnerable cube.
The Arkif, Armitage and the Patrols are prime-examples for sturdy escorts, as they can slot EptS3. I use that currently on my Patrol, but not on my Arkif, as it seems more powerful even without the valdor-console.
Another example would be the Prometheus, while not being able to slot EptS3, it can slot a GW and hence serve itself a mob for CSV.
As I play, I usually shift through my chars. I admit I dislike the scimitar, as its not as powerful as it seems if played in a pug. Sure, its granted 20k+ for me, but then again I have several lower ships with little lower numbers but with huge side-effects. A Vesta that can CC and heal, recluse same+tankiness, the Ody as a tank, which is very fun to fly, and of course my escorts, where you feel much more involved in the fight. The scimitar can only one thing: Damage. While that is fun for some time, I tend to like ships that can do damage+something secondary.
Hell, I have even a drain-torpedo-attrox, than can go over 10k, but the most fun thing is deactivating an entire mob with a single TR3, then using TS-Gravimetric Torp followed by Hyper plasma and breen cluster and watch as they kill each other with Warp-core breaches while their pants are down. The same concept can be used in NWS.
The difference between a tac and other classes and scimi and other ships are not as vast as they seem, if you play with pugs. If you play in a team, the gap widens, simply because spike gets more important and modifiers (like beta) favors the tac more than eng or sci. A Sci and eng can, due to its defensive nature, build a ship much more offensive before getting near the glass cannon-edge.
I also like to play Sci on ground much more than Tac, as its simply not "raw-dmg, and if I dont have buffed I fall behind other classes".
So if you simply want some hard hitting with fast progress, take a (tanky) escort. A cruiser is more like group-damaging, and buffing the team either via tanking and/or via applying beta.
For all types the rules of damage are simply:
-Get as close to an enemy as you can
-Get as fast to the next enemy as you can
-Dont waste you captains-abilities
A simply example is hive: Get 3 beamboots and 2 escorts, and the escorts can dive in pretty much unnoticed and kill one sphere after another very fast, reducing enemies numbers. The beamboots simply cover them, and in the progress damage the whole borgfleet quite a lot, plus applying beta and such. If you dont have the rumored 4 scimis+1recluse with you, thats a lot faster then your usual 5 beamboat-approach. The probability that a escort will come out as nr.1 in damage and dps is pretty high, as they can really concentrate on hunting down the enemy.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=flashtacoddy_0
I used 2 energy weapon officers to reduce cooldown on BFAW3, 2 DOFFS to increase threat with APD, a warp core engineer to boost power levels on EPTx use, and hakeev for possible extra heals to teammates.
I ran Infected Elite, Khitomer Elite and Cure Elite with some fleetmates.
One teammate was running a tactical toon in an beam boat undine ship that was averaging around 20-24k DPS. I run dual monitors and keep combatlogreader open on the secondary monitor so I can see who has the DPS and how the match is going numbers-wise.
The tac oddy was only getting around 12k DPS.
According to my fleetmates in the 3 STFs, The guy running the undine ship usedone heal several times in each STF. It seems the oddy build didn't quite have enough DPS and threat to overcome the threat the highest DPS player had in the runs.
Beyond getting tac vulnerability consoles and respeccing to add more to the threat control skill, is there anything else I could possibly look for to increase threat or DPS to keep aggro when faced with players doing nearly twice the DPS?
I can relate to that. For quite a while, I flew a Recluse PvP tank that was fairly indestructible. But it was back in the day when the game was more balanced than it is now. While being invincible was kind of cool, when I threw that ship at PvE content, the DPS was depressing. About 2-3K if I remember right. It was also a healboat and had its uses in certain content like some fleet actions that required healing. But on common STF runs, it was more of a struggle than anything.
Today I have a new ship that, while not invincible anymore (and I no longer PvP to tell, after Season 9's fiasco), it's still tough and can dish out 15K DPS on average. I am pretty sure I get plenty of killing blows -- while they're not high damage spikes, it gets the job done just as efficiently.
I'm not sure you mean the "lack of offense" in your current build or the OP's. The OP has a tank build with very high DPS so, you might want to take a look at his builds to have an idea. It doesn't even need to be 15K... figures around 8K will do just fine for most Elite PvE content.
STO Screenshot Archive
Dont compare a pve-build to a pvp-build
A tank isnt meant to be played in pvp. Its a pve-type. In pvp a tank that can only tank (and nothing else) will likely be left alone from the opposing team (as far as its not composed of idiots). As I dont pvp, pvp-concerns dont matter to me.
In pvp you have DD and Healers, with some secondary functions like drain and cc. Your healers have the secondary/included function "to stay alive" of course, which can be classified as a tank due to the special area we are talking about in pvp. But thats not what I aim for.
I aim for a pve-tank, so all that matters to me are pve-enemies. And there it prevails.
I thank you for offering advice, but decline wholeheartly.
Use attract fire command and stay close to the team. If you have the Sci Ody, use it for a fourth +Th-console.
If you want to get more dps and have a higher threat with it, I think the most efficient way would be to adapt my Hive-BO-Layout to your ship. Should give you more than simply using vulnerability locators.
I'd be happy if i could reach 15k anyways.
I think all that wouldn't be so bad if ther where some kind of limited AOE beam weapon ability, similar like Scatter Volley. I just hate to use FAW and hit everything in range, it just seems like wasted Firepower.
1. Why use a Fleet Shield with [cap]x2 instead of the Assimilated Shield for the high regen and set bonus shield heal proc?
2. Why use a Field Generator instead of an Emitter Array?
Is cap more important than regen in these cases?
Regen shields, the extra regeneration doesn't work quickly enough to matter in combat compared to even the most basic shield heal, but does give up the high capacity of a Covariant or the bleedthrough-reduction of a Resilient. Regen shields mostly are an artifact from when the meta was a very different game, and outside of a few specific sets they don't really have a contemporary use.
As for the Elite Fleet shield in particular, the Adaptive trait is the key, since that hardens up your shields for up to 35% damage reduction as long as you're under fire (so basically always), and it works against multiple damage types rather than the Plasma-only of most of the Omega-rep sets. The [Cap]x2 is just icing on the cake. The Borg set bonus is nice no doubt, but doesn't trigger till you're low and then not reliably so, whereas hardened shields keep damage from ever getting significant in the first place. Prevention is worth more than recovery.
And the Field Generator, unless one is specifically a purpose-built healer, the extra capacity is generally more useful and more significant than the extra bit of healing. Its not an absolutely-always thing, but as a rule of thumb you can always use more capacity.
@Op
Definitely some solid builds. If I might make a recommendation for the extra-defensive build:
Swap the Flow-caps for Particle Gens, slot in Nano-probe Generator(to compensate lower power levels), and Run Inverted(Doff) Tractor Repulsors. Not only does it 'tank', it also 'tackles' enemies while pouring a lot of damage directly into their hulls(and puts you in range where your beams will do even more damage).
Clumping up the things you're tanking allows the rest of your team to more easily mow things down and the explosions are very prone to causing chain-reactions in the process(dragging a few exploding spheres onto cubes/structures is quite effective).
-ofc eng char
as traits, i went with biotech patch, EPS manifold, elusive, inspi leadern techie and ofc grace under fire.. last one i mostly use accuracy and fluidic cocoon but you could go for warp theorist or whatever else you got, maybe this eng fleet buff trait if you have that or as you stated helmsman, also very nice
-second i wouldnt go for the sci oddy
its nice and all to think you need so many thread consoles but you dont. Go for more dmg its much safer and you dont waste consoles on thread + a little dmg when you can get more dmg and with that more thread
i went with the fleet fed dread, mostly cause its eng heavy layout and i like it
also i dont see your tank being nearly as efektive as a a2b build maybe thats sad or whatever but thats just what it is
I use faw1, tt1 and apb1
epts1, a2b1, rsp2, dem3 although you could switch the last two
et1, a2b1, eptw3 and again you could switch eptw and epts
ph1, he2
beams ofc, normal consols what you would expect
you do a very good amount of dmg, you have a hangar which never hurts, and with epts, rsp, et and all that combined with the standard heals as eng enough to keep you alive as long as you keep your resistances up which is much more effektive with non aux based skills / a2b build
ph is nice to get out of tractor beams, as reduced defense is never a good thing and it helps when shields go down but since aux is low not as much as i could with your setup, i just wouldnt go without it
and when it comes to ships and you dont like the fed dread, there is I believe no ship more tankier than the voth bulwark with its special consoles which allow for an instant self-ress and have this reflective shield thing going.. if you wanna go all out tanky thats basically where it is i suppose
when going for sci captains well at lest imo scattering field is very nice but cant hold up with MW due to its long cooldown, and no reset on dmg trait as MW has
and as for tests you can tank hive the cubes and all if it goes fast enough, in a pug you're pretty much dead if you go all in but at least a medium test of sturdiness is CEE to survive the blast. not that hard but at least something i dont see many ppl do
as for cruiser commands again i feel using weapon systems and doing more dmg is better than just virtually increasing how much dmg you do
again that also depends an how much dmg the group you run with does, when they go beyond 40k and without thread decreasing consoles on their end it might be necessary to go for your version
1. Resistence>Cap>Regen is a easy, maybe too easy, formular these days. I regen more with my abilities than with the standard-regen of a regenerative shield and can take bigger hits. The shield heal proc was nice some seasons ago, but got nerfed into meh.
2. Its a placeholder for the new combinded fieldgen-partgen-flowcap crafting consoles. Emitter array is a nice idea, but in the end I would go with bigger shields then minor bigger heals.
Its a nice Idea, though the extra-defensive build was only a conceptual one, I never tested it, as the other two were already good enough. However, I tested partgens on an attrox and was dissappointed about the minor damageincrease, so I fathom it would decrease tanking-performance, as I also evaluate my flightstyle with the damage my teammates have to take (asking: would it have been possible to die for them if the accumulated dmg would be a one-hit).
I dont use threatconsoles primary for threat, but for flowcaps, threat is a bonus. With 130 Auxenergy at all times, the amount of heal and resistencies I get from my Hazardemitters and TSS are quite high (HE1 with 1k+ per second), outperforming any aux2bat-ships ET. Not to mention a 10.497 heal from Aux2Sif3 every 15 seconds with additional resis. Weapons are overcapped so much that I wouldnt gain anything from Weapon command, though it can help my team, so for other stfs then Hive I sometimes switch.
The sci Ody has a higher damage-potential then the tac-ody thanks to Sensor analyses, if you use it right and the team is not build with 4 30k+ scimis so everything dies before the analyses can stack. If it can stack its worth more than a tac-console. Though with x2 I will go back to the Tac ody, if it really gets its fourth tac console and the Sci only gets an additional engineering console.
But you are correct that this ship is overdoing it in tankiness. It can dive into hive with pugs and leave, and there it doesnt even have to stay in the middle of all for eternity to get all aggro. Thats what it is build for.
For any other STF I would say my Monbosh, solid 22k in pugs on the same char, similar layout to your gal-x, but without the gimping a2b (130aux=6,5+ additional damage, and of course a lot of heal) and higher tac-abitities, is much more efficient. Of course I could also change the layout of the ody for such stfs to an all-offense one like my fleetmate wellington does, also a solid 19-20k ship.
Hive aside, you mentioned the other point why it is build like this:
"unfortunately" I have to deal with such ppl even in my fleet, not to mention the dps-chans. So I had to overengineer it to the thing it is now^^
As for a2b and non-a2b, the latter will outperfom the former on the same ship, if it can be flown without and still has full tactical layout, like avenger, ody, monbosh etc. But only if you have the gear for it. For a fresh toon, a2b might yield better results, but the more it gets the better gets non-a2b. Its a shame the gal-x cant be flown without it.
The bulkward indeed seems like an even tankier ship, but I dont fly TRIBBLE. At best, I fly a phallus.
but it works well enough, i can tank as take aggro most of the time even with better dps chan groups but maybe your whole aux heal a2sif thing is even better, have to try it some day
although i do think that in the end, if you widen your idea from just a tank to just a supporter/tank maybe going with a recluse would be the best thing to do
again yes, its a price thing, if you dont have it already
the phallus is propably even tankier but the TRIBBLE should do a bit more dmg wise
and pls dont go any further on that image^^
Yeah that one is also very good. I already got this one on another toon, and dislike flying the same ship twice. The recluse has also quite the variety to play with and is even in dps-setting very robust.
By your definition, every character class and every ship can be a "real tank".
Why?
because in solo pve, one's ship often receives all aggro and continuously holds it, without the explosion/death of one's ship.
Clarification:
There is a difference between "a tank" and "to tank".
To be a tank, the only requirement is to be able to survive significant damage.
A real-life tank has no ability to control enemy aggression, yet it is still a tank.
On the other hand, "to tank" has a different meaning.
"To tank" means to actively be absorbing damage while surviving.
Avoiding damaging is not "tanking". To avoid all damage, by any means, is to not tank.
Having the power to focus aggression on one ship is a useful ability, but it ought not be a requirement to be defined as a "tank".
"To actively tank" also known as "tanking" means enemy attacks are focused on a particular target, temporarily or permanently, for any reason. Special aggression channeling/focusing powers are not a requirement to actively tank, but can be useful.
"To be a tank" and "to focus/control enemy aggression" are distinct concepts. "To be a tank" does not require any ability "to focus/control enemy aggression". Likewise, "to focus/control enemy aggression" does not require "to be a tank".
Not in every, a good example were it wont work for most ships/builds is HSE (old and new), which I use as a testing/validation ground for tanking. Everything else is just to easy to tank.
So the question is, if you say "often" or "in all encounters/mission", and I tend to the latter
While true, the meaning of a tank in a game is like I explained it.
Sure, the military vehicle shares the name, but as you explained, it only has one requirement, not both. Though technically spoken, it has a certain aggro-part in it, as it should shield the infantery, and help them come to the target, while it focuses the attention on itself.
His finest moment was when he tanked the gate, the tac cube, and about a dozen spheres ALL AT ONCE. Without even dipping below half HP. For over a minute. His support was an epic CC wells who was parsing around 8k, an incompetent Voth Bulwark with rainbow turrets, a newbie in a d'kyr who had pants DPS but good debuffing, draining, and other sci stuff, and me in my 20k DPS Scimitard.
This was post-DR, too.
"tank" has a historical, real-life meaning.
There is no need to give a special definition to "tank in a game" which is a different than "tank outside a game".
There is no need to combine "to tank" and "to attract/control enemy aggression".
They are entirely different actions even if refuse to believe it.
A tank is simply something which can absorb significant damage.
And the ability to focus/attract enemy fire is not exclusive to tanks.
I suggest using (at least) two words/phrases: "tank" and "hold aggro".
For example:
We need a tank which can hold enemy aggro for high dps team.
You may wonder .... why do I care about the definition of tank?
because mmo players sometimes simplify definitions of words and it bothers me because word simplification can result in unnecessary confusion.
In any MMO, the phrase "we need a tank" means exactly that. So holding aggro is implicitly included in "a tank".
A tank without the ability to hold aggro has no reason to exist.
There are also some words in real life which have different meaning considering the context. Some words used in mathematics are quite different and physics, and quite different again in casual language.
So, tanking has a RL-meaning... AND a MMO-one.