Agreed, seeing that apple constantly compared to oranges is pretty annoying. A few things.
It's not apples to oranges. It's just the very very very basic thing here.
STO development team (which is larger than the dev team working on the game I linked) ... is putting forth the idea that procedurally generated content is a bad development tool and not up to their standards.
I'm showing an example of a game that's using it to go way beyond what they ever even thought capable.
That's it. That's the only point I'm making. Procedurally generated content is a tool that works and is being used right now by a different team to do something that the way they sell it is completely star trek like.
So my point is it's not the system (genesis or otherwise). It's the talent (or lack thereof) of the developers using the system.
Cryptic didn't work with it. Cryptic didn't refine it. Cryptic didn't improve it.
They left it to die.
Just like they did with diplomacy. Just like they did with PvP. Just like they did with the idea of Featured Episodes being episodic and like seasons of a Star Trek television show. Just like they're currently doing with DOFFing.
Their innovative ideas and systems are just half hearted attempts that end up getting left by the wayside.
I think they could do a lot with STO by just really really expanding space, adding many more dynamic generated instances. I like the PvEvP concept. Make ramdom things happen in deep space I like the war zone concept, only much bigger. Where you just might come across some race/fleet NPC action going in and choose to fight for one side or the other. Then while this random battle progresses, PvP battles could insue depending on what side you chose to fight for. Then firends/fleet members who where in range could hear your distress signals, and warp in to join the ongoing fight. You could just make these happen rarely and it would improve STO boredom of same missions, over an,d over and, over again. Criptic just needs to be creative with what tools they all ready got. Get a lot more years on this game.
"...to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."
No Man's Sky may not be 100%, but IMO it's a very good start. Go to the planet and explore. The software is creating an entire planet, not a small instanced box to run around in and scan/shoot 5 things. From the looks of it, the software is creating everything - environment, flora/fauna, atmospheric conditions etc.
If it's creating lifeforms and the like, surely it can create pre-warp or post-warp civilizations to study... materials to be collected, scientific studies to be done and such. Leave the more story driven content to FE's and the Foundry. No Man's Sky is giving you an infinite universe to roam around in that's always making something new.
Exploration is story driven. A great explorer doesn't put in his memoirs, "I looked at a bunch rocks and insects for a few weeks before moving on." They put down, "I encountered this sociable tribe that invited to me to dinner, but I realized almost too late that I was dinner." or "I encountered a Grizzly and after the greatest fight of my life, I was victorious and had a new coat."
Procedurally Generated Content might be great for creating stories with epic creatures, but in its current state, it is not possible to create unique civilizations that result in interesting stories. After all, if there was some system that could create unique mission content for each person, then the only devs that would be needed any more is for Art and Gameplay. While I do believe that at some point in the future that Procedurally Generated Content will be able to create unique mission content for each player and I might see it in my lifetime, I don't expect it to happen for at least another 10 years at a minimum. Therefore at this point in time, Procedurally Generated Content is great for other games, but not Star Trek Online due to the story element is missing in Procedurally Generated Content.
Corrected to emphasize the important parts as related to the topic.
In your opinion. Exploration is more than just exploring strange new worlds. It is about increasing our understanding of the universe. We can learn more about the universe by encountering a new civilization than we can from encountering a new world.
Procedurally Generated Content should only be a small part of any Exploration system that we might have. The rest should be random Foundry missions and dev missions made for exploration since exploration in Star Trek episodes usually involve encountering some new civilization like ancient Romans, TRIBBLE, Gods, etc. not scanning rocks.
No I am not or at least not in this thread. You are saying that Exploration should be Procedurally Generated Content while I am saying that Procedurally Generated Content should be a small part of Exploration. FEs and Foundry missions are not part of exploration and the exploration system that I am proposing would require creating new exploration-oriented dev missions and Foundry missions. Obviously, exploration-oriented dev missions would be more complex than the removed exploration missions, but not as elaborate as the recent FEs. So they would take as long as the older FEs that can be completed in 10 to 15 minutes like Spin the Wheel. 5 exploration-oriented missions would equal 1 FE in terms of devs' man-hours.
Therefore at this point in time, Procedurally Generated Content is great for other games, but not Star Trek Online due to the story element is missing in Procedurally Generated Content.
Ooooh, my specialist subject.
Narrative.
Pure procedurally generated content, as you say, is probably years away. At least if we're looking for anything other than different coloured sky.
However, a quasi-procedural approach could be made.
I used to own and run a theatre company that specialised in very large scale promenade shows.
We used to take over nature reserves.
One of the ways i built the shows was to not script them.
Instead, I produced what I called scripts of intentions.
Think bullet points, as opposed to dialog.
Thus we had the points we needed to hit, and an order to hit them in, but my actors were encouraged (actually required) to collaberate with the audience on how to get there.
Thus each show was qualitively different.
A similar approach may give us PGC, at least in a modified form, sooner rather than later.
Only in the sense that the mission only involves visiting a planet to explore, collect resources, catalog a new species, run an experiment, collect a report etc. Leave the ones that require story/combat etc. to Dev and Foundry created content. So yes, you're repeating what I already said.
You are going to have to point to where you said that Procedurally Generated Content should only be a part of Exploration. All that I found that relates to it is
Who is saying to replace the entirety of STO with that? Exploration was/should be a part of the game IMO. No one is saying stop all development on FE's, "crafting", rep systems etc.
Hence FE's and the Foundry. The procedural content can be used strictly for pure exploration. No one is proposing to replace all content in the game with it.
The FE and Foundry missions can't be classified as exploration. Exploration is random and what I am proposing for an Exploration system is that when you enter a star system, you get a random exploration-oriented dev mission, random Foundry mission, or a Procedurally Generated Content mission which I will refer to from now on as PGC mission. So you have absolutely no control over whether you are doing something that requires a story or is just PGC unless you exit the system or go to some window that allows some control over what type of content would be selected like PGC only or story only.
You already quoted the relevant pieces and I don't feel like repeating myself yet again.
So in other words, our ideas are completely different. Your idea is that the devs only need to add PGC to create an Exploration system while my idea is PGC should only be a small part of the Exploration system and new random exploration-oriented Foundry missions and random exploration-oriented dev missions need to be integrated together to create an Exploration system. As I said before, you should not be able to know in advance whether you get a PGC mission, Foundry mission, or dev mission when you use the Exploration System. Foundry missions selected through the Foundry system especially missions in known space and FEs will never be part of an Exploration system.
Why? Especially Foundry content.
If you have to select a particular mission through the Foundry system, then it is not exploration. Making the Exploration Clusters into Foundry doors is not exploration. Exploration is all about experiencing the unknown. So that means, completely random Foundry missions that are not accessed through the Foundry screen. Foundry missions can be used to supplement the Exploration system, but without that randomness, then it is not exploration.
Basically what I suggested already. :P
No, our ideas are completely different as I stated above. Obviously, our definitions of Explorations are different. Exploration is all about heading into the unknown. Voyager was the closest to Exploration than any of the other Star Trek series since they had absolutely no idea of what they will encounter or who they will encounter. Any Exploration system should try to emulate that feeling and PGC alone will not accomplish it due it not being able to satisfy "to seek out new life and new civilizations".
The game kinda got any semblance of fun sucked out the airlock around S9. I just couldn't generate the same level of enthusiasm for the game after that. The Summer event was nice, but after that...meh.
I loved the powerboards and swim trunks for my gorn.
Im pretty sure the fun got sucked out the game long before S9 since the move to F2P took place two years ago.
and now back to our scheduled program. When we will get some concrete details on X2? Will there be a metric ton of content to go along with the metric ton of ships and cash grabs and power creep?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Im pretty sure the fun got sucked out the game long before S9 since the move to F2P took place two years ago.
LoR did bring in a ton of content (relative to other STO releases). It also introduced Romulans and their ships which many players (myself included) wanted to play.
The question is what's next that will keep us playing? Will the devs commit to a big content release or is it going to become even more farmville around here?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I am pretty sure you are right. What disturbs me more is that players seem to either 1) want this OR 2) don't care. Don't even see the point of making builds ... playing the meta game anymore ... with all the power creep and distortion of basic game mechanics.
I still haven't heard too many concrete answers to my original question. Apart from:
1) Star Trek
2) Like combat
3) ?
I am not even sure #1 applies anymore as the combat looks more BSGO and SW than Star Trek's WW2 big naval battle like engagements.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
It's weird. You guys are debating vigorously about something that the development team has abandoned. So it's just like, you should instead be teaming up together.
My suggestion : Some PGC + Some Foundry + Some Dev content = Exploration system
Your suggestion: Some PGC + Some Foundry + Some Dev content = Exploration system
Sigh. Forget it. Moving on.
According to what I read in your posts
My Suggestion: Some PGC + Some New Foundry Missions + Some New Dev content = Exploration system
Your Suggestion: PGC = Exploration system
I don't include the current Foundry missions and Featured Episodes as part of the Exploration system is where our difference lies. There are some Foundry missions that could easily be transferred over to an Exploration system, but as I said before, if I have to personally pick the Foundry mission through the Foundry screen, then it is not exploration.
Hence FE's and the Foundry. The procedural content can be used strictly for pure exploration. No one is proposing to replace all content in the game with it.
How else am I supposed to interpret it? What you have said does not mean an Exploration system includes PGC, dev missions, and Foundry missions. It means that Exploration is strictly PGC and the rest of the content is not part of the Exploration system. You could think that the current dev missions and Foundry missions are a part of some Exploration system, but I do not. Any Exploration system would only use completely new dev mission content and not any of the current dev missions. You could have meant something else that is in line with what I have said, but that is not mentioned in your previous post.
1) Star Trek theme
2) Trading and generating profit
3) Collecting stuff (still not completed my fleet regent build)
I started to play the game roughly one year ago. Getting to know the game and doing combat was fun first, but I quickly got disillusioned by the essentially 2D sector space, the non-functional starship bridges, and the constant and shallow 'shoot every ship' type of activities.
(And oh yeah, missions were terribly underwhelming, not immersive at all, and generally a nuisance right from the beginning; I was happy when I reached the end of the story lines. I would say even grind is better than the badly written and coded, intellectually insulting missions. Fortunately they started to add some better ones recently, but the bar is still low from my perspective.)
1. It has to be at least hundreds of lightyears away from Sol. Having unexplored space a few lightyears away from Sol in the 25th Century makes no sense. The only exploration cluster that fits was the B'Tran Cluster.
2. Exploration must comprise of Procedurally Generated Content, exploration-oriented Foundry missions, and dev missions.
3. Foundry missions have to be reviewed so that they fit as exploration missions.
4. These missions must be completely random so there is no way to know in advance what type of mission you are getting.
5. No official contact has ever been made by any Alpha Quadrant power with any race encountered in the Exploration system. They could hear rumors about us, but that is it.
6. It is possible to visit previous planets even if no mission is there. Some of us have our favorite exploration maps and it would be nice to rest in those locations.
7. There must be sufficient rewards as incentive for us to go there. Acquiring souvenirs that we can display on our ship is something that explorers have always done.
8. We are able to customize what type of exploration missions we do. If we want combat missions, then the majority of missions will be combat-oriented.
9. And most importantly, it must follow "to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."
Comments
It's not apples to oranges. It's just the very very very basic thing here.
STO development team (which is larger than the dev team working on the game I linked) ... is putting forth the idea that procedurally generated content is a bad development tool and not up to their standards.
I'm showing an example of a game that's using it to go way beyond what they ever even thought capable.
That's it. That's the only point I'm making. Procedurally generated content is a tool that works and is being used right now by a different team to do something that the way they sell it is completely star trek like.
So my point is it's not the system (genesis or otherwise). It's the talent (or lack thereof) of the developers using the system.
Cryptic didn't work with it. Cryptic didn't refine it. Cryptic didn't improve it.
They left it to die.
Just like they did with diplomacy. Just like they did with PvP. Just like they did with the idea of Featured Episodes being episodic and like seasons of a Star Trek television show. Just like they're currently doing with DOFFing.
Their innovative ideas and systems are just half hearted attempts that end up getting left by the wayside.
What kind of development is that?
http://memoryglands.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/22.jpg
It was glorious
"...to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."
Exploration is story driven. A great explorer doesn't put in his memoirs, "I looked at a bunch rocks and insects for a few weeks before moving on." They put down, "I encountered this sociable tribe that invited to me to dinner, but I realized almost too late that I was dinner." or "I encountered a Grizzly and after the greatest fight of my life, I was victorious and had a new coat."
Procedurally Generated Content might be great for creating stories with epic creatures, but in its current state, it is not possible to create unique civilizations that result in interesting stories. After all, if there was some system that could create unique mission content for each person, then the only devs that would be needed any more is for Art and Gameplay. While I do believe that at some point in the future that Procedurally Generated Content will be able to create unique mission content for each player and I might see it in my lifetime, I don't expect it to happen for at least another 10 years at a minimum. Therefore at this point in time, Procedurally Generated Content is great for other games, but not Star Trek Online due to the story element is missing in Procedurally Generated Content.
In your opinion. Exploration is more than just exploring strange new worlds. It is about increasing our understanding of the universe. We can learn more about the universe by encountering a new civilization than we can from encountering a new world.
Procedurally Generated Content should only be a small part of any Exploration system that we might have. The rest should be random Foundry missions and dev missions made for exploration since exploration in Star Trek episodes usually involve encountering some new civilization like ancient Romans, TRIBBLE, Gods, etc. not scanning rocks.
No I am not or at least not in this thread. You are saying that Exploration should be Procedurally Generated Content while I am saying that Procedurally Generated Content should be a small part of Exploration. FEs and Foundry missions are not part of exploration and the exploration system that I am proposing would require creating new exploration-oriented dev missions and Foundry missions. Obviously, exploration-oriented dev missions would be more complex than the removed exploration missions, but not as elaborate as the recent FEs. So they would take as long as the older FEs that can be completed in 10 to 15 minutes like Spin the Wheel. 5 exploration-oriented missions would equal 1 FE in terms of devs' man-hours.
Ooooh, my specialist subject.
Narrative.
Pure procedurally generated content, as you say, is probably years away. At least if we're looking for anything other than different coloured sky.
However, a quasi-procedural approach could be made.
Embed procedurally generated scenarios inside scripted ones.
I used to own and run a theatre company that specialised in very large scale promenade shows.
We used to take over nature reserves.
One of the ways i built the shows was to not script them.
Instead, I produced what I called scripts of intentions.
Think bullet points, as opposed to dialog.
Thus we had the points we needed to hit, and an order to hit them in, but my actors were encouraged (actually required) to collaberate with the audience on how to get there.
Thus each show was qualitively different.
A similar approach may give us PGC, at least in a modified form, sooner rather than later.
You are going to have to point to where you said that Procedurally Generated Content should only be a part of Exploration. All that I found that relates to it is
and
The FE and Foundry missions can't be classified as exploration. Exploration is random and what I am proposing for an Exploration system is that when you enter a star system, you get a random exploration-oriented dev mission, random Foundry mission, or a Procedurally Generated Content mission which I will refer to from now on as PGC mission. So you have absolutely no control over whether you are doing something that requires a story or is just PGC unless you exit the system or go to some window that allows some control over what type of content would be selected like PGC only or story only.
OOO-OOOOOOOO-OO-OOOOOOOM!
*deep breath*
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
So in other words, our ideas are completely different. Your idea is that the devs only need to add PGC to create an Exploration system while my idea is PGC should only be a small part of the Exploration system and new random exploration-oriented Foundry missions and random exploration-oriented dev missions need to be integrated together to create an Exploration system. As I said before, you should not be able to know in advance whether you get a PGC mission, Foundry mission, or dev mission when you use the Exploration System. Foundry missions selected through the Foundry system especially missions in known space and FEs will never be part of an Exploration system.
If you have to select a particular mission through the Foundry system, then it is not exploration. Making the Exploration Clusters into Foundry doors is not exploration. Exploration is all about experiencing the unknown. So that means, completely random Foundry missions that are not accessed through the Foundry screen. Foundry missions can be used to supplement the Exploration system, but without that randomness, then it is not exploration.
No, our ideas are completely different as I stated above. Obviously, our definitions of Explorations are different. Exploration is all about heading into the unknown. Voyager was the closest to Exploration than any of the other Star Trek series since they had absolutely no idea of what they will encounter or who they will encounter. Any Exploration system should try to emulate that feeling and PGC alone will not accomplish it due it not being able to satisfy "to seek out new life and new civilizations".
Im pretty sure the fun got sucked out the game long before S9 since the move to F2P took place two years ago.
Troll thread is that way =>
...
and now back to our scheduled program. When we will get some concrete details on X2? Will there be a metric ton of content to go along with the metric ton of ships and cash grabs and power creep?
- Judge Aaron Satie
LoR did bring in a ton of content (relative to other STO releases). It also introduced Romulans and their ships which many players (myself included) wanted to play.
The question is what's next that will keep us playing? Will the devs commit to a big content release or is it going to become even more farmville around here?
- Judge Aaron Satie
I am pretty sure you are right. What disturbs me more is that players seem to either 1) want this OR 2) don't care. Don't even see the point of making builds ... playing the meta game anymore ... with all the power creep and distortion of basic game mechanics.
I still haven't heard too many concrete answers to my original question. Apart from:
1) Star Trek
2) Like combat
3) ?
I am not even sure #1 applies anymore as the combat looks more BSGO and SW than Star Trek's WW2 big naval battle like engagements.
- Judge Aaron Satie
It's weird. You guys are debating vigorously about something that the development team has abandoned. So it's just like, you should instead be teaming up together.
According to what I read in your posts
My Suggestion: Some PGC + Some New Foundry Missions + Some New Dev content = Exploration system
Your Suggestion: PGC = Exploration system
I don't include the current Foundry missions and Featured Episodes as part of the Exploration system is where our difference lies. There are some Foundry missions that could easily be transferred over to an Exploration system, but as I said before, if I have to personally pick the Foundry mission through the Foundry screen, then it is not exploration.
But agreed, moving on.
How else am I supposed to interpret it? What you have said does not mean an Exploration system includes PGC, dev missions, and Foundry missions. It means that Exploration is strictly PGC and the rest of the content is not part of the Exploration system. You could think that the current dev missions and Foundry missions are a part of some Exploration system, but I do not. Any Exploration system would only use completely new dev mission content and not any of the current dev missions. You could have meant something else that is in line with what I have said, but that is not mentioned in your previous post.
1) Star Trek theme
2) Trading and generating profit
3) Collecting stuff (still not completed my fleet regent build)
I started to play the game roughly one year ago. Getting to know the game and doing combat was fun first, but I quickly got disillusioned by the essentially 2D sector space, the non-functional starship bridges, and the constant and shallow 'shoot every ship' type of activities.
(And oh yeah, missions were terribly underwhelming, not immersive at all, and generally a nuisance right from the beginning; I was happy when I reached the end of the story lines. I would say even grind is better than the badly written and coded, intellectually insulting missions. Fortunately they started to add some better ones recently, but the bar is still low from my perspective.)
1. It has to be at least hundreds of lightyears away from Sol. Having unexplored space a few lightyears away from Sol in the 25th Century makes no sense. The only exploration cluster that fits was the B'Tran Cluster.
2. Exploration must comprise of Procedurally Generated Content, exploration-oriented Foundry missions, and dev missions.
3. Foundry missions have to be reviewed so that they fit as exploration missions.
4. These missions must be completely random so there is no way to know in advance what type of mission you are getting.
5. No official contact has ever been made by any Alpha Quadrant power with any race encountered in the Exploration system. They could hear rumors about us, but that is it.
6. It is possible to visit previous planets even if no mission is there. Some of us have our favorite exploration maps and it would be nice to rest in those locations.
7. There must be sufficient rewards as incentive for us to go there. Acquiring souvenirs that we can display on our ship is something that explorers have always done.
8. We are able to customize what type of exploration missions we do. If we want combat missions, then the majority of missions will be combat-oriented.
9. And most importantly, it must follow "to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."