Discussion on Skill points and Science modules

arkatdt

I noticed this in another thread:

Speaking of which, Grav Well barely benefits from Graivton Generators, so don't bother putting points in there. Your skills are kind of a mess, check this out: Starship Skill Point Effects http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm

I am not sure how up-to-date this is, but there seems to be serious diminishing returns for GW performance with skill points. So my question is, why keep on putting in the Science modules for Particle and Graviton generation? Does having the total points above 140 start really boosting performance again?

pwstolemyname

There are no diminishing returns. You get the same flat bonus for every skill point (not the same as captain skill investments, which go from 0-9 and increase your captain skill be a smaller number for every 3 investments). The problem is that skill level does not account for a large proportion of effect.

Lets take graviton generators as an example. A Gravity Well 3 at 125 aux power with 0 points in graviton generators gets you a well with a 3km radius. So that's 6km side to side.

For every point in graviton generators skill (the info in the skill chart is horribly out of date) you get 0.015km added to your radius.

With 6 investments in the captain skill you get a total of 84 graviton generator skill points. Now your well is 8.52km side to side.

If you chose to put in 9 investments (inadvisable for any captain skill) then your well will be 8.97km from side to side.

Now a mark xii very rare graviton generator console (relatively cheep on the exchange) will boost your skill by 30 points that's 0.45km added to the radius with each console. Most science ships have 4 science consoles so you can get your diameter up to 12.12km without getting too silly. (6 investments and 4 console slots used)

Of course if you want to put together a 'Mega-Well' build you can go all out. With universal consoles, a 5 science console ship and the right deflector dish you can boost the skill high enough to put out a 15km well as standard and an 18km well when you pop the romulan rep power.

So to summarize, with no investment at all your looking at a 6km well. With a standard investment about 50% of your diameter comes from skill points. With an over the top investment 60% comes from skill.

Now particle generators suffer far more from this then graviton generators. Because no matter how much you pump them the starting values simply arn't high enough to be competitive with conventional dps. Graviton generators don't have this issue as they have nothing to compeet with.

stumpfgobs

pwstolemyname wrote: »

Now particle generators suffer far more from this then graviton generators. Because no matter how much you pump them the starting values simply arn't high enough to be competitive with conventional dps.

This is important to remember. I sometimes test particle gens with new gear that came out, like with the emission torpedo. The effect particle gens do have on the damage of it can be neglected (100 points of damage - going from 600 to 700 in my case - for 60 particle gen skill points added).
Same is true for the gravimetric torp. Using grav gens is far superior to particle gens since you can achieve a lot of overlap between the mini wells that do far more damage than 10 times the particle gens even could.

I'd steer clear of particle generators - they are borderline useless unless you're a tac buffing them with attack patterns for the lolz - and even then, buffing something else would be better.

The new crafting science console for example is only really interesting in its ultra rare variant with some science skill and the shield boost since the particle gen effect provided by it is so minor you might just go with a shield boosting console without the skill boost and save some cash.

arkatdt

stumpfgobs wrote: »

This is important to remember. I sometimes test particle gens with new gear that came out, like with the emission torpedo. The effect particle gens do have on the damage of it can be neglected (100 points of damage - going from 600 to 700 in my case - for 60 particle gen skill points added).
Same is true for the gravimetric torp. Using grav gens is far superior to particle gens since you can achieve a lot of overlap between the mini wells that do far more damage than 10 times the particle gens even could.

I'd steer clear of particle generators - they are borderline useless unless you're a tac buffing them with attack patterns for the lolz - and even then, buffing something else would be better.

The new crafting science console for example is only really interesting in its ultra rare variant with some science skill and the shield boost since the particle gen effect provided by it is so minor you might just go with a shield boosting console without the skill boost and save some cash.

So would you put in 3 points into the skill to get a the big bump from 0 to 54, but no more than that?

qziqza

*Removed as table already posted by OP

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arkatdt

edalgo wrote: »

Really depends on your build and what your focus is.

If you're a Science ship that GW is going to be your main Control ability then I'd put 6 into Graviton Generators.

If you're an escort looking to add Control with GW to compliment your weapons then 3 will do just fine.

This is a Science Ship (MMRE) that I will be wanting to use GW as a major CC ability. So that would be 6 points into Graviton. Would I still put at least 3 points in Particle Generator?

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galadiman

pwstolemyname wrote: »

There are no diminishing returns. You get the same flat bonus for every skill point (not the same as captain skill investments, which go from 0-9 and increase your captain skill be a smaller number for every 3 investments). The problem is that skill level does not account for a large proportion of effect.

Lets take graviton generators as an example. A Gravity Well 3 at 125 aux power with 0 points in graviton generators gets you a well with a 3km radius. So that's 6km side to side.

For every point in graviton generators skill (the info in the skill chart is horribly out of date) you get 0.015km added to your radius.

With 6 investments in the captain skill you get a total of 84 graviton generator skill points. Now your well is 8.52km side to side.

If you chose to put in 9 investments (inadvisable for any captain skill) then your well will be 8.97km from side to side.

Now a mark xii very rare graviton generator console (relatively cheep on the exchange) will boost your skill by 30 points that's 0.45km added to the radius with each console. Most science ships have 4 science consoles so you can get your diameter up to 12.12km without getting too silly. (6 investments and 4 console slots used)

Of course if you want to put together a 'Mega-Well' build you can go all out. With universal consoles, a 5 science console ship and the right deflector dish you can boost the skill high enough to put out a 15km well as standard and an 18km well when you pop the romulan rep power.

So to summarize, with no investment at all your looking at a 6km well. With a standard investment about 50% of your diameter comes from skill points. With an over the top investment 60% comes from skill.

Now particle generators suffer far more from this then graviton generators. Because no matter how much you pump them the starting values simply arn't high enough to be competitive with conventional dps. Graviton generators don't have this issue as they have nothing to compeet with.

Hold on a sec.

Using your numbers...

the area (I think that's what matters here, cmiiw) affected:

12.12 km diam 115.4 sq km 100% ('base')
15 km diam 176.7 sq km 153% (of 'base')
18 km diam 254.5 sq km 221% (of 'base')

Am I missing something here? Isn't AOE the relevant consideration?

(Corollary: Always get the Large pizza, kiddos - it's usually literally twice as much pizza.)

Edit: Oh, your point is how much of the diam comes from skill points, not how much *better* it is. nm...

ursusmorologus

Gravwell is for cluster/hold not for damage. There are a lot of other attacks that do decent amounts of exotic damage though, even Tractor Beam can kill with enough power behind it.

Partgen consoles should be thought of like tac weapon consoles. If you look at a weapon then add a single mid-level tac consoles, do you think wow that is small improvement I would be better off not using any tac consoles at all! If you want to do exotic damage as a primary means of attack, you need to think in terms of ~4 partgen consoles in addition to your 99 base skill points and whatever you can squeeze from deflectors and set bonuses.

coffeemike

My tac Vesta Class on my engineering toon is pretty handy when using Gravity Well 3: 6 points in Particle Generators plus Graviton Generators yields quite a bit of damage.

For my build, the synergy between GW 3, the skill points, plus taking engines offline in a target makes it a fun sight in PVE. Plus add in Gravimetric Torpedoes (The proc is helped from Particle Generators) makes it pretty DPS oriented on a science ship. I did an ESTF run with my fleet and someone running Combat Tracker noticed my torpedoes alone accounted for 20% of my damage. But then again I only had 60% power to weapons as the rest went to AUX for over 136 power in it.

So... if you want to play the tac Vesta with Gravity Well 3, I suggest the following:

1) Make sure your skills, ship gear [consoles, deflector/engine/shield/], BOFF seats, DOFF assignments are synergized. I use the 3 item rule: Crowd Control, Healing, DPS - in that order.
2) Some weapons like Antiproton require high crit chance and crit severity... I would invest in over 14% crit chance and over 100% crit severity if you can. Or get spire tac consoles with either crit chance or crit sev along with Romulan Embassy BOFFs that have Romulan Operative as one of their traits.
3) Look at DOFFs as a way to enhance damage. Some like Lorix enhance power when using exotic particles to deal damage with. Other DOFFs are avail to help add additional damage so I'd go to STO Wiki to research them.
4) Power Management is helpful: getting additional power like thru a Warp Core Engineer and Damage Control Engineer DOFF slotted will help if you focus power to AUX and leave the rest of them at 50 on weapons, 25 on engines and shields. This means also slotting at least 2 BOFFs that have Efficiency as a trait.

arkatdt

edalgo wrote: »

Really depends on your build and what your focus is.

If you're a Science ship that GW is going to be your main Control ability then I'd put 6 into Graviton Generators.

If you're an escort looking to add Control with GW to compliment your weapons then 3 will do just fine.

I had a thread going last week on Fleet RSV vs the MMRE and gotten some suggestions there. Here is one build:

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=mmrephoton_6771

and a second, based on suggestions from that thread:

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=mmrephotonalt2_6771


I am still working through the BOff's. I just hit RA (44) last night and did my first Infected Conduit with my RSV. It was not setup anything like this as it was a mix of beams and photon torpedoes. I certainly need to respec once I hit VA. I was able to do 2292 dps, but I was seeing problems with keeping the shield up and the hull repaired. Playing my Engineer officer spoiled me a little for that. I think I have enough shield healing with the current BOff setup, but I am not sure on the hull healing.

pwstolemyname

galadiman wrote: »

Edit: Oh, your point is how much of the diam comes from skill points, not how much *better* it is. nm...

No worries. Possibly I could have worded my post a little better to avoid confusion.

Now for those of you comparing the merits of stacking particle generators over graviton generators hear is some food for thought

A bigger gravity well is no better then a smaller well if its increased size dose not extend far enough to reach any more ships. In these circumstance ,(sphere catching in infected space being one) a rack of particle generators is the better choice.

In those instances with an abundance of spread out ships stacking graviton generators will always be better then stacking particle generators. In fact mega wells are the best way for a science ship to enter the 20-40k dps bracket, although the content in which this is possible is servearly limited.

galadiman

I'd be willing to sacrifice a little if, once in a while, my grav well sucked in, for example, 4 groups in a Fleet Defense, or a HUGE furball on a SB24.

I know it's supremely unlikely, but if you're saying there's a chance...

It would all be worth it.

pwstolemyname

galadiman wrote: »

I'd be willing to sacrifice a little if, once in a while, my grav well sucked in, for example, 4 groups in a Fleet Defense, or a HUGE furball on a SB24.

I know it's supremely unlikely, but if you're saying there's a chance...

It would all be worth it.

A Mega-Well build is a lot of fun. Just don't use it as your bread and butter. Switch into it for appropriate content: fleet defense, fleet alert, no-win and SB24 but for most other things switch back to something else.

The two elite undine space events also work very well with a mega well build, the undine will jump right out of a regular gravity well but a mega well pulls them strait back in. In fact I've had better success at soloing a lane in undine-assault with a mega-well ship then anything else I have tried.

Basic components:

Graviton Generator Console X4 or x5
Assimilated Module
Tachyokinetic Converter
Reman Deflector Dish

Deflector Duty Officers (recharge) X3
Gravametric Scientist (Grav Arftershock) X1

The Best abilities to complement a mega well are scatter volley, attack patern beta and torpedo spread. Beam fire at will also works, but the goal with a mega well is to start a warp core breach chain reaction, beam fire at will spreads your damage more evenly then scatter volley or spread, so it takes longer to begin exploding things.

Attack pattern Beta is a grate way to increase the damage that things in your well take from all sources, the well, the warp core breaches, and weapons fire.

With a mega Well build you may not want to mix in other offensive science abilities. Your going to be drawing agro, so tanking abilities are important, especially as your picking equipment for graviton generators rather then tanking. The one exception being a copy of energy syphon, this will help to trigger deflector duty officers to ensure you can keep using gravity well 3. Alternatively you could have a grav well 1 and 3, but if you can make a mega well, you will probably want to do so every time.

Recommended Ships for a Mega-Well are:

Vesta (5 science console veriant), with dual heavey cannons and scatter volley.

Fleet Nova, with torpedo spread, the gravimetric torpedo, and consoles to boost crit chance (for gravimetric torpedo rifts)

arkatdt

Based on the conversations here and some PM's that I received, here are some proposed builds:

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=mmrephoton_6771

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=mmrephotonalt2_6771