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Starfleet Cruiser, most DPS (PvE)
yreodred
Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
Being tired and extremely frustrated of flying low DPS junk like the G -R, i'd like to ask you all which Starfleet Cruiser in STO can do most DPS in your opinion.
Despite that it's obvious that Cryptics devs don't want Starfleet cruisers to be top DPS ships, what are your experiences and what kind of build works best for you and which one is the most fun to fly?
Despite that it's obvious that Cryptics devs don't want Starfleet cruisers to be top DPS ships, what are your experiences and what kind of build works best for you and which one is the most fun to fly?
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
A tale of two Picards
https://youtu.be/d-f3bscZa0E?t=105(also applies to Star Trek in general)
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DPS build choices these days are A2B or non A2B. Which is more fun for you is the question.
In my experience even the best ship can suck, if you don't use it right.
So what interests me the most is what kind of builds do most player prefer and how good do they run with it?
Cruisers have the best chance of sustained dps. The Avenger and Fleet Assault cruisers have been favourites in our fleet. Even the Oddy can be a nasty dealer.
For higher spike damage, my favourite is the new Fleet Patrol Escort. 5 Tac consoles and a really great boff layout.
Aux2Bat: Fleet Gal-X with Elite Swarmers pets. I've top this out at around 36k+ in a standard L>R ISE run. I've seen it hit 39k in a similar run with a Recluse.
Non-A2B: Tie between Fleet Avenger and Science Oddy with the Tac Oddy slightly behind. I've gotten both my Fleet Avenger and my Scie Oddy to ~36k+ DPS in standard L>R ISE runs.
How is that possible?
Don't get me wrong, but with much luck i can reach 11k DPS on ISE and i run a pretty offensive FACR myself. That's with my main character, having the best equipment i can afford, i don't dare to mention some other characters ships.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=altair_1513
most will poo poo the oddy consoles but there are advantages, a maneuver boost, some subsystem help but most important the cheveron drops gravity wells when you set it loose.
Most of the numbers people post are bs. It's all just inflated numbers from running ise with a bunch of damage based builds, that are barely viable in your average pug. You will never see a parse from a pug with those kind of numbers. I'm not insulting the poster, just saying individual damage isn't sustained at that level over a long period. Wish we had some kind of damage drone to test on individually. If we did you would never see damage numbers in the range people are posting currently unless it was a short parse with all their buffs up.
Aye, this, very much. You can parse anywhere from 5 to 20k higher in a proper premade than in a PUG. With a proper team, you can drop defensive options and focus solely on offense, as well as benefit from additional disruptor stacks, APB, and everything else you will see on premade DPS teams. Many of these builds are not viable in PUGs. Some are, but you won't typically see 30k parses unless you get an awesome PUG at random.
@jornado
@ursusmorologus
Your explanations are highly enlightening, very appreciated.
So im still kind of confused (not as much as at the beginning though).
What would be a good average DPS for a ship that is supposed to perform in PUGs?
You know without team, just somekind of firefighter build, capable to save a STF if things go wrong.
In fact i like to PUG much more than optimized 2 minute runs.
I think it's much more thrilling if you don't know what might happen next. Sure, things can go awful wrong but it's still better then those boring 2 minute ISE run.
(But thats just my opinion)
Regarding to my prefered ship builds, i have come to the conclusion that utility is much more important than going after ultra high DSP numbers.
On the other hand it's a bit embarrasing to see a enemy ship get blown up (by one of those nasty Escorts) in 1-2 seconds while you couldn't even fire some torps at it, lol.
Sry to burst your bubble, but my vesta and monbosh, both flown by the "appropriate" class parse 20k+ regularly in pugs (and usually, good pugs dont happen). Now, substitute the class with a tac, 25-30k should be capable to achieve regularly even in pugs. And of course, if you have a good group even higher.
All you need is a well thought build, where you tie in everything you have got and of course high piloting-skill.
As for the OP, the DPS in a pug you should aim for should be 15k on a non-tac-char, a bit higher on a tac-char. Thats something the average DPS-Member can achieve.
As for the ship, given your restriction, you are down to the Assault or the Gal-X. The build then is a normal a2b-build with full beams (+kcb), Vulnerability locators, crtdx3-beams, Romulan engine, undine deflektor, elite fleet shield. Thats pretty much the baseline.
Then I darned beam boats :P
You aren't bursting my bubble I'm afraid. I'm talking about inflated parse numbers. Show me a parse with someone doing nearly 40k+ (in anything other then a scimitar) in a pug with everyone else doing under 5k dps and then I will be impressed. If your all gung ho about pulling 40k dps in a team where everyone else is parsing 20-30-40+k it's not an impressive feat. That's just inflating your own numbers and ego and it's just garbage. The fact that ISE is the "benchmark" for running numbers is really a joke. Anyone can get a bunch of scimitars together and a recluse and push their damage through the roof, but when you do a pug with the average Joe that's another story.
I do agree that in a pug you can pull off numbers in the 15~30k range depending on the ship and build. I never said that wasn't possible. What I'm sick of is people posting parse numbers from premade dps runs and acting like that's the norm for dps. If your someone that runs pugs or with average friends/fleetmates those numbers not realistic.
Yes, I see the point, that max.dps-parses are an issue, as they depend on team and luck. Nevertheless, as you said, numbers between 15-30k are possible, and can be done in pugs. I know one with an Attrox on torps and Sci char who parses 15k+ in pugs, but cant break 20k (team dynamics, good team->torpboats lose). And thats some .... pinpoint-dmg Attrox, not a fawing-spaceball. But the attrox is pretty much the worse ship if you would make a poll. Thats because most ppl dont think for themselves and especially dont think around the corner.
I am also one who usually tells the average dps (and thats with pugs), but even if you get the max-number and just half it you are pretty much at the possible pug-dps, records over 60k aside (though those are with scimis, and a scimi can 30k in a pug).
Its the greatest principal I follow when making builds: It has to be pug-conform, meaning, I dont die in pugs using a build (aside from the usual stuff, one hits and player errors). Its tough sometimes, as my scimitar is currently walking a very thin thread. Though even the more robust ships I wouldnt give away without some survivability-tips, as I really tie in everything I have (any ability not used during an encounter is wasted and therefor the build is not optimal).
But 36k will never go down to 10k or less, it will be around 18,20k. So while your argument is justified, its not like high max-numbers dont mean high average dps. Just half it if it seems to high and your are pretty much at the average-dps.
Now, all the dps-questions aside, Gal-X should aim for 15k independend of class.
P.S.: As for the fleetmates, its you duty to mentor them if you know how to build ships. Even the most average fleetmate of mine knows how important beta can be, so our runs nearly dont differ from DPS-Chan-Runs. Not all of them might get into the Chans, but most of them -aside the ignorant ones- got a crash-course in building ships.
If more ppl would do that in their fleet, we could finally have challenging content, as the average pug wouldnt do 3k but 8-10k dps.
No matter what fleet you are in, I can wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
To be honest i never really got, why ISE is supposed to be the benchmark for DPS.
Wouldn't it be the best sollution if someone would create a Foundry mission about fighting a series of enemy ships?
I think the result would actually be much more meaningful, since there where much less uncertain factors to include, like teammates and them using different tactics all the time.
EDIT:
To be more exact, i'm speaking about benchmarking a single ship performance, not to measure team effectivity.
It's a benchmark because it's consistent, it's not drawn out, and it's possible to run it without breaking combat once.
It's used because, as far as game content, it allows you to push as close to the theoretical max, while giving enough time to even out huge spikes and drastic lows (a huge HY torp crit inflation, or a buggy weapon cycle deflation). It also give barely enough time to take small increases to DPS and bring them out of margin-of-error territory and legitimize them.
You are probably right, a foundry mission might be better, but there is also some fear that somehow the Foundry builder will have put some form of bias built in.
ISE works good for parsing, and is relatively ship agnostic as well as created by an impartial party, hence it's draw.
I test ship DPS there, but use other encounters to judge survivability.
Keep in mind, that although I have some 20-30k+ builds, most of them rarely work for PUGs - If I can't tank half the map at once, I'll end up dead in some of the sh*t PUGs I've seen lately, and my PUG builds reflect that.
Cheers.
While true, I dont know if you can have Elite enemies in the foundry. Also it would be quite hard to actually model something that can measure piloting skill too. 20k on a normal stationary target and 20k over a whole STF with incoming damage,moving enemies, and piloting skill are very,very different things.
ISE however gives you good parsing because the map itself isnt very big (unlike kase), has a high damage in potential if you are flying aggresively (a mob of spheres+gateway) and if dont have a team which obliterates everything fast (thats why I like to fly pugs, it gets a one-man show very fast). And you have to do positioning, which would be kind of difficult to implement in a foundry, as various ppl would have various ideas how to do it, but ISE is just ISE as its rigid and known.
Combatlogreader knows two main-setting: DPS-channels, going for enc.dps, and default, using only the damage-output-time for time, hence the dps on default are much higher, as piloting plays nearly no role, while the dps-chans penalize long fly ways. Thats why you might see many dps-chan-members using engine batteries+evasive to get fast from left to right.
If you use default, then inflating dps is easy, a single fully powered javelin and you have 300k dps, but also 300k damage, because after that you just say, I did my dps and you do the rest.
As for the existent maps, ISE is the logical conclusion, as you have enough damage input to challenge you, have the need for good positioning and have fly ways in between which you can cut time or loose it. If you go kase, you need full impuls, hence you dropped out of combat: bad, also donatra with her cloaking makes dps-measuring difficult. In cse you have many targets you wont make real damage (in ise you have 3 at most), but can easily inflate your numbers if you like. Also the time for carrier spawn isnt fixed, so you can either wait 5sec or 15sec, hence dps is thrown off.
HSE has to many warp core breaches and one hits.
The other elite pve missions have to much flighttime in between (like breach or vicious cycle, hence out of combat-bad- and CD-management not as required as in ISE-also bad.
So thats pretty much why ISE is the measurement, you can easily measure everything you need on that compact map.
P.S.: We are waiting for single queues for elite stfs, as they are easy enough to do alone, and would be a good measurement for single ships.
why not benchmark the starbase in tau dewa? that should give plenty of opportunity to measure both spike and sustained DPS, and it's single ship AND it doesn't have unshielded targets.
a 30K DPS run with torpedos would be meaningless in 99% of PVE and PVP. it's already what I use to test the survivability of a build
@woodwhity
That was good explained and easy to follow, very appreciated.
That sounds interesting.
I found that mission one of the hardes in the whole game. Especially since there is (thankfully) no other player involved. A true test of survivability and effectivity IMO.
Maybe it's just me, but a build that turns your ship into a glass cannon is nonsense. I hope with the introduction of Single Queues more resonable builds will find their way to the game.
I think this is worth of further research/testing.
@cmdrscarlet
*thumbs up*