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Masters of cloak; engineering prowess.
karmog
Member Posts: 115 Arc User
I've noticed that the "masters of cloak" argument is often used against the Klingons when describing the Romulans and their technological advantages. Similar arguments are used to describe high-tech advancements of the Federation and Starfleet, while downplaying the Klingons. Unfortunately and mistakenly, some people concede to that.
Here are a couple of canonical facts to set the record straight:
- Klingons invented a fire-through-cloak starship 100 years before the Romulans (STVI: The Undiscovered Country).
- Klingons invented a time travel device (VOY: "Endgame"), while the Federation and Starfleet only found a method at the time but could not build the actual piece of technology.
That's a better engineering prowess and science mastery than the other two factions, which are highly advanced and love technology. These are facts; this is canon. In fact, the developers didn't do their homework because Klingons should at least have a unique space trait to account for thatbalanced against the other species' unique space traits.
Some of the playable species already have unique space traits; only the Nausicaans have their own space trait on the Defense Force. Why were the Klingons, and the other species for that matter, left out? In fact, all spacefaring species in STO should have their own unique space traits.
It is also obvious that the faction's technological prowess should reflect in their consoles and starships.
Here are a couple of canonical facts to set the record straight:
- Klingons invented a fire-through-cloak starship 100 years before the Romulans (STVI: The Undiscovered Country).
- Klingons invented a time travel device (VOY: "Endgame"), while the Federation and Starfleet only found a method at the time but could not build the actual piece of technology.
That's a better engineering prowess and science mastery than the other two factions, which are highly advanced and love technology. These are facts; this is canon. In fact, the developers didn't do their homework because Klingons should at least have a unique space trait to account for thatbalanced against the other species' unique space traits.
Some of the playable species already have unique space traits; only the Nausicaans have their own space trait on the Defense Force. Why were the Klingons, and the other species for that matter, left out? In fact, all spacefaring species in STO should have their own unique space traits.
It is also obvious that the faction's technological prowess should reflect in their consoles and starships.
Post edited by karmog on
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And ST canon says 99% of the time, Klingons solve their problems with a hammer instead of a scalpel
Is it honorable to kill civilians or not? The fact that there is a debate at all, tells you everything.
"Cloak and fired" is not the same as "fire while cloaked".
And yes the Romulan ship always decloaked before firing in that episode.
And while it cloaked before its weapon hit it target that is no contradiction.
They have to decloak to fire their plasma torpedos, Chang's BOP didn't. That episode makes it very clear.
consider this: there's a rumor going around that chang's BoP was actually stolen from the romulans. If true, then the question would be as to why they would build a klingon looking ship?
my guess, blow up the Khittomer conference from orbit and let the klingons take the blame.
Or its a complete load, there is nothing in canon material that suggests that the ship is Romulan. That and it is a modified B'rel class which has always been a Klingon ship.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chang's_Bird-of-Prey
Sure, I give it that the Klingon Empire certainly employs force more often before immediate scientific study in solving problems.
They are a species and society that believe in might makes right, but they are hardly a species that exists under the old saying, " Those who cant think, fight".
The Klingon people have most certainly proven they are a complex and civilized species, even if their civilization is more brutal in appearance.
Grethors gates, even Kirk has said as much.
R.I.P
Its a complete load.
R.I.P
Implied by whom in the movie? Because I cannot recall at all if others chipped into the technology. Chang was commanding a special B'Rel Bird of Prey, crewed by Klingons with nobody else aboard. No mention in the movie or even alluded to some sort of tech exchange to make Chang's BOP a reality.
Correct me if I'm wrong and show me where in the movie.
I can wait.
Consider this: there's a rumor that Elvis is alive on one of Jupiter's moons sipping tea with Jesus.
You're confusing Kruge's Bird of Prey from Star Trek 3 with Chang's BoP from Star Trek 6.
The former was originally intended to be a Romulan ship when the Romulans were slated to be the villains of the movie. That was changed due to budgetary reasons: they already had the Klingon costumes from the 1st movie while they would have had to design new costumes for the Romulans. Then it was changed to Kruge stealing the ship from the Romulans and then the whole idea was dropped.
On top of that there are several severe problems with this idea as far as both Star Trek 3 AND 6 are concerned.
Let's assume for a second those two ships were stolen...did the Klingons then spend months doing a total internal redecoration?
Did they also write their own Klingon manual for the ship while they had it?
Because Scotty said in Star Trek 4 "Damage control is easy. Reading Klingon, that's hard."
Also as far as Star Trek 3 is concerned Sulu identified the ship as "Klingon Bird of Prey" the moment it decloaked. That would imply that at that instant Sulu literally just saw the ship and knew it was a Romulan ship used by Klingons....yeah Sulu is just that good that he knows this by looking at a ship for half a second.:rolleyes:
And even if we assume for a second the Romulans deliberately BUILT a Klingon ship with their own technology: why the heck would they also make it look Klingon on the inside?
Did they expect anyone to board and inspect it?
Given it was used to fire while cloaked why the heck build it as a Klingon ship anyway?
IT'S INVISIBLE...NOBODY CARES WHAT AN INVISIBLE SHIP LOOKS LIKE.
Especially on the inside.
Please use your brain for minute befor you blurt out such ridicilous nonsense will ya?
I originally looked up this thread seeing if someone had a good idea on making a high end engineering b'rel bomber that was feasible with new undine rep gear. On another note as well being this mirror bop itself although its kind of like a fleet norgh except with 4th tactical console in exchange for loosing lt station to an ensign it makes me wonder why Cryptic says they can't do anything KDF unless everything else is done and that ships take so long to make yet they keep popping out mirror ships for these lockboxes. Such contradictions from them when it concerns the KDF.
Although I hate to see KDF players argue about canon and such when the real problem is so much frustration with so much Klingon canon out there but the developers seem to be uneducated on it and choose to just not do anything KDF just because its not the majority.
Its like nobody wants to admit that the Klingon people might actually be smart enough to become some sort of vast interstellar Empire with the technology requirements to go with it.
Indeed.
And the Klingons have had numerous wars with its neighbors, to include the much larger political and military power, its rival, the Federation.
You do not become a major political and military power in the quadrant, fighting wars, without knowing how to fight as well as having the means to do so.
On the other hand, that might be reading too much into a single line. The other thing is that romulan ambassador Nanclus was involved in the conspiracy, but we don't really know what his role was. His presence in the plot is so minor he has like one line. But when Valeris was getting mind-***** by Spock she mentions him as one of the architects of the conspiracy alongside Chang and Cartwright.
It's a highly speculative theory, but I don't know if that discounts it entirely.
EDIT I also thought of something else; if it was an entirely klingon invention, why bother with the conspiracy at all? A single B'rel with enhanced cloak almost defeated two of Starfleet's heavy cruisers, before Spock figured out its Achilles' heel. A fleet of them might have done far more damage, in an apocalyptic final war that Chang and the other hawks in the klingon empire wanted. But that Achilles' heel was a major design oversight, something which might have been missed if it was foreign technology as opposed to in-house technology. No other cloak seems to have ever had the same vulnerability, before or since. And we never hear of the klingons developing or refining the technology afterwards; it was lost with Chang and that was the end of it. It only comes up again a century later with the Scimitar.
EDIT2 I guess it comes down to this, what's more likely: that a design flaw which Spock could see in five minutes passed the design and development stage of the cloak's manufacture in whatever highly secret klingon weapons lab, or that the roms gave the klinks a cloak with a fatal flaw, and didn't tell them about it? I think the latter actually a bit more plausible honestly, it fits with roms being underhanded and happy to play both sides against each other.
Believe me, this annoys me a great deal. You either love the space viking crossed with samurai crossed with TRIBBLE angel bikie theme TNG introduced (or more accurately, Ron D. Moore), or you hate it because TOS is the pinnacle of Star Trek and everything that's come after it sucks in comparison.
Of course, the klingons in TOS were barely-disguised Soviet analogues so basically all it means is one stereotype is more acceptable than the other, but as far as I'm concerned TNG injected nuance and an actual culture to the klingons which TOS never did. TNG and DS9 had things like klingon lawyers, traders, opera singers, restaurateurs, they had songs they sung when getting drunk and songs they sung before a battle. They had an intricate backstory and history of myth and legend. What TOS had was slightly swarthy Soviets by another name whose only role was to play the foil to Kirk and the Federation. I never got the impression they were any more 'real' than the space vikings we got in TNG, but some people dig them more.
Fed/Rom conspirators knowing the existence of Chang's special B'Rel, IMO, does not equal to a ship made with borrowed technology from foreign powers. Nothing in the movie promotes even the hint of shared technology.
Look I'm not 100% sold on the idea myself, but I do find it interesting. At least one answer in soft canon source (Hayes manual for the klingon bird-of-prey) the question I posed above was that Chang compartmentalised the data and when he died it kind of died with him.
Which means....what in this case?
Maybe. Though it may not have been the cloak that was new. It occurs to me that according to canon the cloak always drew a lot of power, so much so that the weapons and shields had to be powered down to keep the cloak up. We also noticed that in TUC chang only fired torpedoes from that bop.
What if the new development wasn't a new cloak, but a new torpedo launcher that needed a lot less power to use?
Id imagine that the torpedo launchers take far less power to operate than any energy weapon like a disruptor, especially on a ship with limited power generation like a BOP.
Exactly. It would explain why Chang only fired torpedoes.
And of the three factions, they are the least likely to rush something from test phase to the field. Starfleet is constantly sending new prototypes out into the field with minimal testing, the Romulans as well. But the Klingons, they take years to change things up. This might be why we don't see another B'rel that can fire while cloaked in any of the series, because it's still being perfected. But now in STO you can get a retrofit that fires while cloaked (it being set some 104 years later).