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Feedback on my fading interest
bareel
Member Posts: 3 Arc User
This morning I logged in and quickly sent my doffs off on a variety of missions on my toons to gain resources to continue advancing the fleet starbase. I tossed marks into the projects, checked the provision levels, and then pondered actually playing the game for a bit. Instead I logged off to play something else for a bit.
It is now evening and I have a bit of time to play a game. I consider logging in to sto, maybe run an STF, at the very least turn in more contraband perhaps. But instead I am writing this post as I log into another game. And this is not the first time. But why, am I just burned out on STO? Nope, the gameplay is still enjoyable to me but it is seriously lacking something at the moment.
Lack of character progression
I have no method to truly advance my characters. Season 9 was a massive disappointment for me with the reputation revamp because it removed the only thing I was excited for, new passive reputation traits. Side upgrades get old after awhile. I have no reason to care about increasing my performance against a specific enemy type. And why would I, they offer me nothing I cannot get from other content nor will a marginal increase in performance in a specific scenario be worth the bother of getting the gear, then constantly switching it when I go to other content.
You will notice the only thing I bother to do anymore is directly related to an advancement system, the fleet. I want to actually progress my characters, not just get different tricks. That's what alts are for. Games like Diablo 3 offer paragon levels, EQ offered an AA system, and Marvel Heroes just released their own omega system for a reason. A core part of an RPG is progression and those systems allow the player to continue slowly progressing their character even between content releases.
1000 Rock today, or 2,225 tomorrow
Lets say you have a mark box with 100 marks inside it. If you open it today and convert it to purple rock you will get 1,000. If you wait to open the box during a bonus mark event you will get 1,500 marks which you could then turn into 1,500 purple rock. Or if you then hold on to those marks until a bonus dilithium event it will become 2,250 purple rock.
So I stockpile things to turn into other things to stockpile for no actual purpose aside from advancing the fleet starbase. Incentive is lowered when I am merely stockpiling, incentive is destroyed when I am merely stockpiling to wait to stockpile.
The replacement of the daily event calendar with the weekend events has definitely made it so I won't wait a few hours for the bonus mark hour until I bother playing some content. I now wait months. Desirable rewards, carrots, etc are another core element of an RPG.
Too many options
Their are so many things I could do in STO that I don't want to do any of them. I'm after purple rock, do I feel like doing another ISE, perhaps crystalline entity, nah I should goto a battlezone. Meh, why bother.
I hate to agree with Geko, but I do agree with Geko.
Lack of consumer confidence in Cryptic
This deserves it's own thread honestly. But after the so called revamp of the galaxy and the roll out of the new fleet patrol escort that isn't a revamp of the old fleet patrol escort I was extremely disappointed. When other games I have played revamp older characters (LoL, MH, Warframe, etc) they actually revamp them and then don't turn around and expect people to repurchase them.
The lack of small tweaks to various powers, equipment, and abilities in the game to increase diversity and promote balance. The inability of Cryptic to go the extra mile, unique bridge on risan ships that allows swimwear for example, makes many of the releases fall short. Or the lack of displayed cool-downs for bonus mark boxes.
Loadouts are another perfect example. You have the capability to make content that really requires teamwork and various roles to complete that could be accomplished by PuGs. Imagine the following scenario.. You join a Nightmare Starbase Defense mission with your escort. During the briefing you are informed you will be facing off against Voth. You know the voth have 3 different agro groups, one set always hits the starbase hard with primarily kinetic, another will focus on anyone healing the starbase then the starbase, and the third group is standard agro mechanics. You go to swap to your heal boat cruiser when a fellow team-mate announces he has the starbase support covered with his oddy packing double extend shields (doffed) and an ET3 at global cooldown. Instead you switch out to your Nebula drain build. The Voth heavy hitters can be completely shut down with enough power drain plus their frigates with their annoying photonic cloak only have 15 base AUX power and a TR will help with them. Plus you have Photonic Shockwave at which will strip their annoying shield immune ability. And ST is nice. The rest of the team sticks to their heavy DPS ships.
Of course that will never happen. The loadout system is bugged not to mention extremely limited by not effecting traits and requiring a large number of different bridge officers to use effectively. Not to mention the complete lack of play-counterplay in STO monster design.
Half assed is the term I would use to describe far too many aspects of STO.
Lastly stop being such a slave to your F2P model. Systems are revamped primarily to create a new shiney for lockboxes (trait/kit) it seems. In the end I understand you need to make money but at the same time it would be nice to see a few things released where I cannot immediately spot how it will directly increase lockbox sales. Player retention and/or satisfaction are good enough reasons for some content.
Suggestions
Create an advancement system at max level that effects all characters similar to the Paragon levels of Diablo 3. It will help player retention between content releases.
Return the hourly event calendar. Remove some of the content from STO and have it show up in the rotation with increased rewards.
Their really needs to be a few devs who aren't working on the next big release who are available to polish and tweak things.
Final Thought
STO content is designed to be played again and again. For that model to work the content needs to be an enjoyable experience in itself and offer a compelling reward for continued play. Stockpiling tokens to acquire gimmicks is getting old.
It is now evening and I have a bit of time to play a game. I consider logging in to sto, maybe run an STF, at the very least turn in more contraband perhaps. But instead I am writing this post as I log into another game. And this is not the first time. But why, am I just burned out on STO? Nope, the gameplay is still enjoyable to me but it is seriously lacking something at the moment.
Lack of character progression
I have no method to truly advance my characters. Season 9 was a massive disappointment for me with the reputation revamp because it removed the only thing I was excited for, new passive reputation traits. Side upgrades get old after awhile. I have no reason to care about increasing my performance against a specific enemy type. And why would I, they offer me nothing I cannot get from other content nor will a marginal increase in performance in a specific scenario be worth the bother of getting the gear, then constantly switching it when I go to other content.
You will notice the only thing I bother to do anymore is directly related to an advancement system, the fleet. I want to actually progress my characters, not just get different tricks. That's what alts are for. Games like Diablo 3 offer paragon levels, EQ offered an AA system, and Marvel Heroes just released their own omega system for a reason. A core part of an RPG is progression and those systems allow the player to continue slowly progressing their character even between content releases.
1000 Rock today, or 2,225 tomorrow
Lets say you have a mark box with 100 marks inside it. If you open it today and convert it to purple rock you will get 1,000. If you wait to open the box during a bonus mark event you will get 1,500 marks which you could then turn into 1,500 purple rock. Or if you then hold on to those marks until a bonus dilithium event it will become 2,250 purple rock.
So I stockpile things to turn into other things to stockpile for no actual purpose aside from advancing the fleet starbase. Incentive is lowered when I am merely stockpiling, incentive is destroyed when I am merely stockpiling to wait to stockpile.
The replacement of the daily event calendar with the weekend events has definitely made it so I won't wait a few hours for the bonus mark hour until I bother playing some content. I now wait months. Desirable rewards, carrots, etc are another core element of an RPG.
Too many options
Their are so many things I could do in STO that I don't want to do any of them. I'm after purple rock, do I feel like doing another ISE, perhaps crystalline entity, nah I should goto a battlezone. Meh, why bother.
I hate to agree with Geko, but I do agree with Geko.
Lack of consumer confidence in Cryptic
This deserves it's own thread honestly. But after the so called revamp of the galaxy and the roll out of the new fleet patrol escort that isn't a revamp of the old fleet patrol escort I was extremely disappointed. When other games I have played revamp older characters (LoL, MH, Warframe, etc) they actually revamp them and then don't turn around and expect people to repurchase them.
The lack of small tweaks to various powers, equipment, and abilities in the game to increase diversity and promote balance. The inability of Cryptic to go the extra mile, unique bridge on risan ships that allows swimwear for example, makes many of the releases fall short. Or the lack of displayed cool-downs for bonus mark boxes.
Loadouts are another perfect example. You have the capability to make content that really requires teamwork and various roles to complete that could be accomplished by PuGs. Imagine the following scenario.. You join a Nightmare Starbase Defense mission with your escort. During the briefing you are informed you will be facing off against Voth. You know the voth have 3 different agro groups, one set always hits the starbase hard with primarily kinetic, another will focus on anyone healing the starbase then the starbase, and the third group is standard agro mechanics. You go to swap to your heal boat cruiser when a fellow team-mate announces he has the starbase support covered with his oddy packing double extend shields (doffed) and an ET3 at global cooldown. Instead you switch out to your Nebula drain build. The Voth heavy hitters can be completely shut down with enough power drain plus their frigates with their annoying photonic cloak only have 15 base AUX power and a TR will help with them. Plus you have Photonic Shockwave at which will strip their annoying shield immune ability. And ST is nice. The rest of the team sticks to their heavy DPS ships.
Of course that will never happen. The loadout system is bugged not to mention extremely limited by not effecting traits and requiring a large number of different bridge officers to use effectively. Not to mention the complete lack of play-counterplay in STO monster design.
Half assed is the term I would use to describe far too many aspects of STO.
Lastly stop being such a slave to your F2P model. Systems are revamped primarily to create a new shiney for lockboxes (trait/kit) it seems. In the end I understand you need to make money but at the same time it would be nice to see a few things released where I cannot immediately spot how it will directly increase lockbox sales. Player retention and/or satisfaction are good enough reasons for some content.
Suggestions
Create an advancement system at max level that effects all characters similar to the Paragon levels of Diablo 3. It will help player retention between content releases.
Return the hourly event calendar. Remove some of the content from STO and have it show up in the rotation with increased rewards.
Their really needs to be a few devs who aren't working on the next big release who are available to polish and tweak things.
Final Thought
STO content is designed to be played again and again. For that model to work the content needs to be an enjoyable experience in itself and offer a compelling reward for continued play. Stockpiling tokens to acquire gimmicks is getting old.
Post edited by bareel on
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Comments
Note to Cryptic (and PWE)*:
This is usability feedback that you should be taking to heart. (Or paying $$ to gather. In this case, it's free.)
* I should add: Players, like myself, realize it's only a game. This is your job, your career, your livelihood. There aren't always incentives to overlook the whining and moaning about game issues, "I want, I want!!", etc.
Some of us wish there was a way to aggregate feedback which could positively impact your business planning, product development, dev work, etc. This forum appears to be the only conduit -- aside from making a statement with (or without) actual financial purchases.
We're thankful for devs , like crypticfrost and tacofangs, who join the forum discussions to give some hope that the community (customer base) is being listed to. Please consider some other form of survey/reports/studies to allow the entire community (customer base) to share sensible feedback.
Feedback that can be turned into business justifications, boost your userbase, your profits, etc.
(Then again, Cryptic may be at the mercy of PWE management who have set formulas/business goals until profitability declines significantly.)
Inability to have character advancement, or a direct increase in character power, is the original complaint. Side upgrade gimmicks are not direct increases in character power and hold very little interest.
Did not complain about my focus, complained about how silly the resource rewards can become if you take proper advantage of the bonus weekends and the impact it has on the desirability to play the game.
Player roles in design do not necessitate the inclusion of the classic rpg trinity of healer/tank/dps. Those were the goto roles in older MMOs but have faded in popularity post WoW clone era. Initiator, ganker, support, carry, CC, and many other roles have become the new norm.
I don't think you understood my feedback. Sorry about that.
Do you get better the more you play the game?
No.
Simply put, this is not that type of game. There is not enough depth in mechanics for an expansion of in game knowledge to truly benefit me beyond the ability to spot the terri-bad options. The skill cap, at least for PvE, is so low even I can make a spacebar macro that could carry me to victory. I occasionally find a more effective method of accomplishing something, like a better contraband doff route, but yeah.
Sure I sometimes get a kick out of learning the exact formula's for various things but that doesn't exactly improve my player skill.
But a player skill challenge is not what I am looking for, else I wouldn't be playing STO in the first place.
Response in Blue
Let's look at the DPS-channel folks. You could take the builds from one of their just over a minute runs, give them to me and four guys like me...and we're not going to come anywhere near what they do. Cause it's not just the external character advancement from the gear - it's also the internal character advancement that takes place from playing and experience...the player advances.
Let's look at some of the Minimalist folks. They run STFs with gearing, that if you gave it to me and four guys like me, we'd probably all be dead before our weapons finished their first cycle. Cause again, it's internal character advancement that takes place from playing and experience...the player advances.
Let's look at the PvP folks. I'm sure I could get several of the folks out there to share their team builds with me as long as I didn't share them with anybody else, and if I got four more guys like me and we were to challenge the folks they fight...we'd get slaughtered. Cause once again, it's internal character advancement that takes place from playing and experience...the player advances.
STO has no vertical content progression. The Undine content is no more difficult than the Borg content. The Voth content wasn't. No content is. You hit level 50, and as a fresh 50, you can hit up whatever content you want - cause it's all horizontal content.
All the vertical progression does in STO is the following:
Helps out those DPS-channel folks pushing the limit. They take a look at the new goodies, see if they'll fit in, adapt their tactics and strategies, and run with it.
Makes mistakes in PvP more costly.
Allows folks to grind faster. Though what are they grinding faster? For what? To be able to grind faster? Okay...for what? To grind faster?
Has lowered the bar so that even the most casual player can drop some stuff out on the spacebar and have a blast doing "Elite" content.
Allowing folks to fly some goofball but fun builds and still pull 5-10k DPS.
But in the end, if the content is so massively easy already - why the desire for additional external character advancement? If it's already easy...why does it need to be easier and easier and easier and easier?
I get where the DPS folks and PvP folks are going at it - they're creating their own challenges along the way. But with that, it's as much internal advancement as external - often more internal than anything.
The funny thing is, even if they did vertical content progression to go with the vertical character progression...it would just be an illusion. Would it be any more difficult at a certain level than it was a previous level? Would it not just get back to it being as easy if not easier than before?
There's some folks that make fun of that kind of gaming...they call it munchkin gaming. Perhaps they're being elitists or just some type of snobs, but they look at how a group might hit up a dungeon - carefully planning, carefully moving through it, etc, etc, etc...while looking at a group that's doing little more than a hack 'n slash zerg through it. Where's the challenge? Where's the point?
Different folks have fun in different ways...there's no doubt about that. But what's the point of being more powerful without some sort of challenge to measure that power?
Blunt truth? Dopamine.
That's what is 'fun' defined. That sweet chemical release in the brain.
Some get it from being leet and breaking records.
Others get it by overcoming a challenge.
I get it from seeing that 100 become a 101.
I mean after all, what is the point of overcoming a virtual challenge? Or breaking a virtual record? In the end there is no true point aside from the experience itself being enjoyable and it also filling some form of subconscious desire at the same time resulting in....dopamine.
But we are getting way to far down the rabbit hole now. Honestly I think the only reason I still log in sometimes is a twisted sunk cost fallacy.
New releases in other MMOs generally involve an increase in difficulty. STO doesn't do that. It's simply not that kind of game. It's got powercreep out the wahzoo without the matching content.
Typical MMO: Run Dungeon A to get gear to run Dungeon B to get gear to run Dungeon C to get gear to run Raid A to get gear to run Raid B to get gear to run Raid C...new release!...Run Dungeon A to get gear to run Dungeon B to get gear to run Dungeon C to get gear to run Raid A to get gear to run Raid B to get gear to run Raid C...new release!...Run Dungeon A to get gear to run Dungeon B to get gear to run Dungeon C to get gear to run Raid A to get gear to run Raid B to get gear to run Raid C...new release!...over and over and over.
STO: Run Dungeon A, B, or C...here comes Dungeon D, E, F. It's all good. Pick whichever - run it whenever.
You resolve the issue of folks collecting and hoarding such items by putting expiration dates on them. They only last so long and then they're gone. Use them or lose them. Problem resolved...
If I read your loadout suggestion there, you were suggesting that folks could do whatever they wanted once a mission had already started? Basically trying to push this even more away from Star Trek and toward some generic spaceship shoot 'em up game?
And well, speaking of - there's this...
This still irks the Hell out of me. It's not the RPG Trinity that's an issue. It's the MMO Trinity that's an issue. The RPG Trinity exists without issue for all sorts of content creation - it's based on typical archetypes from thousands of years of literature and works very well. The MMO Trinity on the other hand is a complete bastardization of that - TRIBBLE that's ruined so many games and left them with only pale possibilities. The MMO Trinity has created some of the most absurd logic bombs...it's mind boggling the manner in which folks consume it without a second thought...meh. The basic archetypes, the RPG Trinity, is nothing like the garbage that they started tossing around with EQ and so many folks cloned afterward...
And hrmm, saw this as I was previewing this...
I just can't fathom that. I mean, I get what you're saying...but that would be as enjoyable as watching the second hand on a clock tick away for no other purpose than it is ticking. Not that it's a case of getting closer to something - not that it means something is almost over - that it has no meaning outside of it simply advancing.
It's kind of funny, cause something sarcasmdetector said in another thread got me thinking. I've got my thread there of Average builds...yaddayadda...where I believe I made a comment about any min/max that was done was done subconsciously. sarcasm said in another thread that folks basically picking items for bonuses were basically doing min/max. Sure, there was the debate with rinkster about the level of min/max - what folks generally think of, etc, etc, etc...
...but it got me thinking about the builds I fly, and if I was actually to be honest with myself about them. They are absolutely a form of min/max. Not at the minimal level or maximum levels as suggested in the discussion in that thread, but in a form that suits my ability to have fun. I'm doing min/max mediocrity...builds that do at least a certain amount of damage, have a certain amount of survivability - builds that do not have too much damage, etc, etc, etc. I'm aiming for the middle where I can have some casual fun.
Nothing is too much of a challenge - nothing is so little of a challenge. Nothing that's going to leave me tired or frustrated - nothing that's going to leave me bored to tears.
And on top of that, I'm rolling with eight toons with eight different playstyles...so in bouncing around with those, it further helps me avoid ending up in the doldrums of tedium that could easily come about.
I've created my own challenge...to keep myself entertained.
So...yeah, I'd be one of the challenge folks. Not leet by any stretch of the imagination, but a challenge kind of person.
But as I said, where you feel the need to see that 100 go to 101...I believe that happens, without needing some external measurement of it. After all, time passes whether there's a clock there or not.
I expect a mod closing of this thread, maybe in a couple replies later on...
I did see the issue with an hourly event calender vis a vis people in differing timezones.
However, the predictability and continuous nature of that system is sorely missed.
I wonder whether a daily calender might be an appropriate compromise.
The RPG Trinity came about in the mid 1970s...nowhere near a single-player game.
The MMO Trinity is nothing like that.
The MMO Trinity introduced concepts such as artificial threat and braindead boss mobs. The MMO Trinity removed most of the potential customization and simplified the archetypes into hard classes. The MMO Trinity butchered the RPG Trinity in favor of action instead of adventure.
The only thing fundamentally flawed about this discussion is that your parents didn't know how to use a condom.
It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with somebody lacking any intelligence...you babble on and on about the RPG Trinity while completely ignoring what it is - instead referring to some delusional concept that you like to bash while typing with one hand on the keyboard and the other fidgeting down your shorts.
Get a clue...come back...eh?
I can point to 40 years of history to support what I'm saying. You can point to...what? Nothing. Cause you've got nothing...you're not even smart enough to realize we hate the same thing. You're off babbling about TRIBBLE you know zero about instead.
It is irrelevant that they are not the same thing? I mean, ffs, how is anybody supposed to have any kind of discussion with somebody when they acknowledge that there is a difference but state that difference is irrelevant? Do you take the short bus to the forums or something?
Why don't you learn how to play and realize that you don't try to do the same thing with everything, eh? Do you use a hammer with screws and a screwdriver with nails too? Or have you maybe figured that out?
Threat/aggro is not part of the RPG Trinity. It's part of the garbage MMO Trinity. The MMO Trinity created the "glass cannon", not the RPG Trinity.
I do like STO... Some of the things in it are great. Graphics on the whole are rather good, ships fly well and feel good (except the freakin' Spiral up and Down :mad: ****!), and the toons look great on the ground. It has a fair bit of fanservice and even some interesting plots and story arcs as well as good fan made content.
However... Old bugs that never die get really old after awhile... Pushing for the next stupid Lock Box ALL THE TIME or the next Lock Box Ship... uugh... It gets really tiring after awhile. Essentially polluting the factions with so many ships that do not belong IN their faction that it is hard to tell who is with what group at a glance is immersion breaking, canon breaking, and just plain obnoxious... The constant grind for EVERYTHING eventually wears on you and Starbases are a pain in the tail...
To be honest STO is sort of an odd game really... On the one hand you have the Featured Episodes and while some folks gripe about them I would say they are often done very well and even include voice acting from the stars of the show and a long interesting overarching plot. You have rather neat ships which can be customized into many builds to accomplish very different ends (my favorite part I think). Yet you also have with that polish and gold sort of a cruddy Free to Play money grab lotto box cheap rinky dinky feel...
Or to put it another way... It would be like testing out a Luxury car. It has a beautiful exterior that commands respect and the price you would pay for it. Its engine is fairly solid with maybe a few hiccups that you hope can be ironed out. It has most of the features you would want and expect in a Luxury Car of its class and maybe a few more... buuuut... The seats are made of plastic imitation leather... The dash board is all clunky ugly plastic that does not seem to quite fit together right and all the trim and little touches like the shifter and dials and steering wheel feel like they come out of some bargain bin. So at first it seems great but it just feels off and cheap somehow the longer you sit in it.
MMOs have the garbage with the NPC boss mob that somehow rules an entire kingdom with vast armies...but is going to stand there focused on a meatshield, ignoring the folks doing damage, and ignoring the guy keeping the meatshield alive. That's not a RPG concept...that's a MMO concept.
Hell, even many single-player RPG video games - the AI is lightyears ahead of MMO AI in how the NPCs address the player and the members of the player's party if one exists.
MMOs though? Yeah, they've got that special nonsense going for them with the MMO Trinity.
That's not the RPG Trinity.
Fighter, Mage, Cleric...that's the RPG Trinity. And there are so many potential variants from those three archetypes. You can even leave the "magic"/"fantasy" angle behind and still have them.
Attacker, Defender, Healer? Sounds like you're talking 4th ed. D&D after it got the MMO makeover...
Come now Virusdancer you are better than to resort to that sort of thing. I have read enough of your posts to know you are not like that. Don't feed the trolls and all that...
However, real PnP RPG was in some fundamental ways VERY VERY VERY different from a game like STO... I know we like to say that things like STO are just an evolved version of it but it is nothing like it.
In good ol' Fashioned D'n'D (After the board game version though...) you DID have a very specific selection of character classes each with very specific abilities. The Mage for instance even had a list of spells that were insanely situational to the point of making one have to ask "Why would any mage bother coming up with a spell just to do THIS?". The player though was NOT supposed to "Make" their character. The DM was supposed to create the world, scenario, and then include the right mix of characters with the right stats and abilities to complete it if the players worked together correctly. Then it was up to the Players to choose WHICH of these premade characters they wanted to play as.
STO is NOTHING like that. Instead you have a huge array of scenarios which may require notably different skills to accomplish and a whole slew that just require raw damage output and nothing else. The Devs sort of created the Classes but let the Player not only choose their Class but totally make their Character anything they want. They are met with VERY few restrictions. Also because there are many occasions in STO where you will find yourself ALONE (sometimes FORCED by the game) you DO need to try to balance out how well your character regardless of class can handle EVERYTHING by themselves.
Really when Cryptic GIVES you party members to work through a particular FE is about as close as we get to the good ol' PnP RPG days except that they still let you design your own character and unfortunately the depth of the problem solving is rarely as deep.
However, I do agree with your point that the MMO Trinity is NOTHING like the RPG Trinity and that is largely because the MMO Trinity is all about killing things and the RPG Trinity is all about SOLVING PROBLEMS which made it infinitely more interesting and dynamic.
The hate I feel for the MMO Triniity is just so...so freaking overwhelming. I remember the first time I played a MMO that had it, instead of MMOs that were more like PnP RPGs. The whole "why the Hell would that NPC focus on that guy and ignore the rest?" thing...and...meh, it just massively built up over the years - game after game that dd that. I literally just start seeing red with it.
A villain/enemy/etc - that is a threat to the world...isn't going to be that stupid.
It just...it just blows my mind. I've lost track of how many cigarettes I've smoked because of having to think of the MMO Trinity in this thread.
It's not excuse for anything I've said...and maybe I'm looking for a forced vacation. Hell, maybe I'm looking for an excuse to uninstall.
The combination of the MMO Trinity and the Monster Farm...it's usually too much for me to handle, I go off the deep end. It makes me question what I'm doing with a game - why I'm bothering - I start to think about the time I've spent playing - I get ticked off - I get pissed off - and - I tend to end up having a meltdown/breakdown...