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ursusmorologus
Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
Premise: all ships must have either Battlecloak -OR- Super Speed -OR- a Very Deep Tank capability. If you cant hide you better be able to run, and if you cant do either you better be able to soak it up.
Any exceptions you can think of?
Any exceptions you can think of?
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Doesn't need cloak.
Doesn't need super speed.
Doesn't really have to tank either.
Something specific? You say shutdown like turn off their weapons or something, I guess that could work against 1.
Mostly sci just facilitates escape rather than providing it. Things like Jam work great for 1 follower (but not 2, you need AMS for that), and that's only if they dont clear it with sci team (which is 50/50 these days), and even then it only enables you to put some distance with speed or cloak and not a getaway mechanic by itself.
I have never found a need for a ton of speed or tanking things on my science ships.
Something like a wells.... Eject Warp Plasma, Gravity Well Tykens Sipen, Target Subs, Sensor An, Sub nuke, Sensor Scan, Tractor beams / TBR, VMs... it is very capable of shutting down an entire team pretty much solo.
I don't often run Jam... but I have been known to use romulan cloak (jam1) on my torp boats. Honestly if your stupid enough to chase my sci torp boat and clear my jam with your sci team... I am laughing cause your already dead. Your about to be nuked 10s later and see your sci team icon get a nice 2min+ timer slapped over it.
Wasn't talking about my torp boats though... those hide in cloak 99% of the time of course.
Standard Sci ships though... build for CC and revolving around something like a deflector doff build where they can have Siphen Tykens and GW all at global can be very viable with out cloak speed or a ton of heals.
It's why you don't carry just one ST.
Good point.
I've gotten cocky though, thinking I was just playing with my food (I'm no real threat) and setting them up for a kill from somebody else...when there's that lil' sound from behind and the respawn countdown in front of me - lol.
ST on every ship called, it left you a message. it wanted me to pass along 'lol' :P
If people use there Subnukes with out thinking they deserve to have them cleared.
Sci team doesn't do nothing against VM or Sub disables... doesn't do nothing to help you out of a tractor beam... doesn't do nothing to get you out of a gravity well.... I love how it pulls you right out of the warp ejections to, wait doesn't do that does it.
Science still decides the match... nothing changed that much.
And its true they don't need cloak speed or heavy tank to be effective.
oh i run ET on everything too! modest dampner specing makes GW nothing more then a frame rate downer, and all them builds with AtD think TBR is cute. you sci/sci are lucky more people don't run sci immunity builds like i do
You can run sci immunity builds but then for the most part those builds are easy to ignore. (not talking about you, good players in general make pretty much any build work because this game is still mostly about timing). You know what I mean though... the people that run every single team instead of resists come here and complain about "vapers". (as they mostly have none of the resists... and blame there insta pop on vape even if that isn't the case at all)
I have no issues with the teams being unlocked it doesn't really hurt my scis. Sure some people are going to be super resisted. That is always the case with sci. To be honest I'll just control the rest of your team... with all those sci skills your not likely coming to vape me... so mostly I can just make sure your team has zero spam meaning no extra faw protection or confusion factor. (pug wise chances are at least 1-3 of my team mates are going to be fawing up a storm) in a premade it just makes it all that much easier to keep track of targets to swap to.
I'm not saying there isn't counters... but there are no counters to it that require you to super tank super juice the engines nor require you to sit in cloak and pick your shots.
The op asked for playstyles that where viable that didn't revolve around min maxing one of the 3 main forms of defense right now. Sci Sci fits that... outside of that ya the point might be valid.
I also don't see an issue an issue with the idea. In my mind the only builds that have ever stood out to me where ones that had a very clear role. When I build a ship (even if its role is mainly defensive) I always try to find a "burst" role (not saying every ship should have a super burst) However a plan to provide a kick of dmg to finnish someone is always a good idea. I also always decide how I am going to stay alive. More people should think that way and try to build mostly balanced ships. I am not a fan of the silly Super vaper builds that run almost no defense or rely completely on a run away move ect... they are predictable and drop far to often to be effective. I also can't stand ships that don't even bother firing weaposn and just circle and tank / heal... the idea of not being able to contribute anything at all to team defense or offense... I just have no idea what those people are honestly thinking. (thinkin all they ever want to do is pug I guess)
If I had a wells I'd probably do the go-fast like everybody else does with them. Poor me, all I have are fleet faction ships.
I don't really go fast in my wells or korath... I hear you though you do see people speed tank with those more.
Which faction ship are you using right now mainly ?
Anyway... Something like this is hardly squishy and will be able to provide some good control.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sciscirefit_0
For the last slot I left empty put in the undine escape console. Why not... gives you a get out of free card if you get focused.
Run a couple Dmg Control Doffs... a Couple torp doffs... and a couple Purple Deflector doffs. (The deflector doffs are the most important as they will keep your siphen / tykens and GW all at gloabl). If you fee llke you would rather have faster Tac teams or Sci teams... I guess you could drop the torpedo doffs... you loose some dmg of course... really though its the spreads that will be doing most of the work... as well as the GW / Tykens... not everyone is going to be ignoring that dmg and with a handful of the dyson sci consoles it is interesting how much free hull dmg you end up with.
Fleet Nova is a good example, but its not the only one. No battlecloak, and a single Lt engineering BOFF station so no tanking. Only thing left is speed-tank, which means APO and/or EPtE/EPtS (both require DOFFs), probably drop an offensive spell for TSS so I can shield tank more.
I was having the same problem with a Chel Grett on my KDF but I beefed surviabilty on that one with APD and a couple of other things. APD is a lot more expensive on the Nova.
You really shouldn't have to be tanking though in that ship. To be honest you won't really be tanking in any of the sci ships... accept perhaps the pallisade could get away with it setup to be a super healer. If you get focused in a sci ship... you need to do something cunning. (target weapons / sub space jump / drop some AMS or Theta ... or use the undine console... or just hit evasive and try and get under the wing of a friendly engi or something).
The wells has the backstep to rely on ... trust me when you focus most wells in pugs the only thing that saves them is the back step and most people switching targets. Use the poor mans versions like AMS Undine ect. I have nothing against any of the conoles anymore go to town. Load em up and save them for when you get focues. It will by you time... and if one annoying escort is picking on you... repay the favor, hold your nukes and scans for them... put a Tykens / Siphen on them every time there hazards ends ect. If your in a match where your getting picked on by 3 or 4 vapers or something and your team is incapable of helping you... speed tanking or shield tanking or having a commander engi wasn't really going to help anyway I don't think.
AMS is always good for the butt huggers.
Undine console
Alpha deception
The Harry Kim conosle (don't remember the name cloaks you and created a clone.. Photonic displacer or something like that)
Subsapce jump (jump to someone 9k away and boom your out of range.)
Blackhole
Aceton (if your a klingon)
Theta (it does kill perception coat the guy behind you and evasive works well)
Graviton console (sure why not... hit them with that to keep them out of arc)
Magnetomic console (klingon)
Barrier Field console (klingon again)
Impulse burst (although sometimes your just asking for the 1-2 ganky escorts to chase you down and your 30k from any help)
You can pretty much use any of those to reduce focus fire or remove it completely.
I am honestly not super up on the breen. I think I got it on one toon and forgot about it to be honest. I know its a sci heavy escort... and its not the fastest escort around, likely not the best PvP scort I'm thinking... perhaps someone else has a better idea how to use it then me though. (I think Mr Drunk has had some success with that ship... I think)
chel is one of the beter beam boats, with a COM tac and 8 weapons. i loaded up 2 copies of TBR pull, to complement the beam pressure. that seems to work real well together.
Interesting that the consoles also fall into the 3 categories of invis/speed/tank.
You forgot the subspace black poo console as a way to blind a group of ships, but you need speed/cloak to take advantage of the window.
Depending on the map you could use terrain, but along the console lines for KDF that's not been mentioned there's:
1. Spacewall
2. Karfi console (makes you untargetable, but not invis)
3. Theta (messes w/perception irrc, not to mention the lag)
Playstyles stuff for Sci Ship
1. Pet spam for sponging up mines and FaW/CVS. Pets, Photonic Summons, etc.
Last I checked TBR had a target limit too.
2. High level SS, last I checked it still messed w/targeting (but you'll probably want placates/perception loss as well). Use w/other abilities that require ST to counter. Though freeing up the shared cooldown on teams makes this less effective.
3. Pair w/another AoE drain build and neuter the other teams DPS together.
4. TBR/Undine repel weapons (this can annoy Pugmates). Damage reduction via distance.
5. Focus on resist boosts and have a Repper as a teammate. In particular hull resists since Sci ships get decent boosts to shields. Aux2damp, PH, HE, Hazzard Doffs (if you have room), etc. Should be able to get away w/rolling a couple of resist boosts to hull w/o spending too many resources on it. Goal is to be repairable target, not a tank.
6. FBP
6b. Iirc Feds have a ship w/the Kinetic version of FBP, use that for best of both worlds.
7. The trait that has chance to disable weapons on crits, use w/AoE Sci abilities and AoE weapon ability.
8. Spam a TRIBBLE ton of AoE disable stuff like VM w/jumping doffs, PSW w/aftershock, Web mines, goal is to interrupt vapors by pumping out enough stuff to throw off their timing.
9. Tif, and SS w/Doff. Personally, I don't have near the issue w/people using Tif and SS w/Doff given Aux2batt and cleanse Doff. Sadly, sometimes power creep to counter other's power creep is valid imo. (Fyi, I don't have Tiff and haven't used SS Doff in ages and I don't like facing this kinda stuff, but I given the current meta don't have an issue w/others using it).
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Something I have just noticed about the Fleet Nova is that it has the same hit-points as Fleet B'Rel (almost), except it doesnt have a battlecloak. Tanking is sooo not an option with that ship. With the shield mod and the inherent captain traits its quite strong in 1v1 but it still dies like a BOP when focused. Best I have come up with is use Impulse Burst away and hit the KHG 3-pc MEF, hopefully the other guy didnt follow your trail because MEF doesnt work worth anything if they are within 5k.
the cloak alone would make allot of peeps stop crying especially battle cloak i want one for my fed difiant
Would be op really... just as op as putting the BC on the raptors.
Escorts are not likely ever going to get Battle cloak... unless the game has 2 months till CBS closes down the server. Then perhaps Cryptic would want one last cash infusion. lol