This. Why would the officials of New Romulus allow access to their fighters and equipment to you for killing Borg thousands of light years away? Reputation Marks can be considered as the respect gained from a certain organization for doing certain tasks for that organization. So a universal reputation mark or using just dilithium and energy credits makes no sense.
Yeah, I don't get why folks don't understand the simple concept of...Reputation System...developing Reputation with a Group and being Rewarded by said Group. Heck, we have the same thing in our day to day lives. Buy 5x sandwiches at store A, get a free sandwich. You can't buy 5x sandwiches from store B and expect a free sandwich from store A. It's such a fundamental thing...folks just don't want to do certain content because they find other content easier.
i'll never understand why some people keep throwing around the words "lazy", "effort" in a freaking game, as if sitting your TRIBBLE hours(or days) on end to get a virtual trinket makes you a better person or something.
That's precisely why they throw those words around...because it is such a simple thing to sit on one's TRIBBLE for hours/days to do something...and yet people still whine that it's too much. That's how pathetic they come off...you pointed it out yourself. So how can you not understand it?
i'll never understand why some people keep throwing around the words "lazy", "effort" in a freaking game, as if sitting your TRIBBLE hours(or days) on end to get a virtual trinket makes you a better person or something.
You want the gear from a specific rep system, then do the missions that reward the marks for that specific rep system.
If you don't want to bother with those missions, then simply don't bother to get the gear.
Item I consider "currency" has no purpose on its own except to be exchanged for another item. So aimed with that knowledge lets just count, purely for the fun of it:
1. Zen
2. Dilithium
3. EC
4. Omega Marks
5. BNP
6. Dyson Marks
7. Dyson thingies
8. Romulan Marks
9. Nukara Marks
10. Undine marks
11. Undine thingies
12. Fleet Marks
13. Mine provisions (YEAH IT IS A CURRENCY)
14. Embassy provisions (you get the picture)
15. Spire provisions (why on earth there are so many)
16. Qmendations
17. Photos of Q
18. Lolnut favors
19. Lolnuts themselves
20. Fleet Credits
21. 6 x winter event commodities (but they are currency too)
You want the gear from a specific rep system, then do the missions that reward the marks for that specific rep system.
If you don't want to bother with those missions, then simply don't bother to get the gear.
It is a simple concept.
I think OP original point wasn't about "doing or not doing specific content", I believe he's rather asking why in the name of tribble there are so many bloody currencies.
I think OP original point wasn't about "doing or not doing specific content", I believe he's rather asking why in the name of tribble there are so many bloody currencies.
And as a casual gamer all these new currencies are primarily grinding currencies, which isn't how I want to spend my time in the game. But if I want any of the new stuff being released I have to spend what little free time I have to play STO doing the same thing over and over again so I can buy what I want.
...they didn't want to do specific content to get what they wanted.
I think OP original point wasn't about "doing or not doing specific content", I believe he's rather asking why in the name of tribble there are so many bloody currencies.
Because each rep needs it own marks. If I only fight against the Borg, then why should I be entitled to rep gear from the Dyson rep system?
I dislike people who think they are "entitled" simply because they exist. You want it? Then earn it. No one is preventing you from doing so.
Because each rep needs it own marks. If I only fight against the Borg, then why should I be entitled to rep gear from the Dyson rep system?
Doh...
Says who? Where in the holy scriptures does it actually say that "each rep needs it own marks"? Srsly? The genesis of the whole thing as far as I can see is this:
* Someone came up with idea of marks
* Marks got implemented
* Then the whole thing got copy pasted over and over and over again
The overall design model is "you spend X amount of time doing Y to earn Z". Naturally ppl will gravitate towards more interesting Y to spend their time X with. Multiple treads about "why on earth can't we get fleet marks for stfs" is proof enuff. And, between us girls, how many of you are actually enjoying raising epohs to get romulan marks? Raise your hands, and please be honest about it.
So I am asking: if we're bound to spend time X doing Y, then
a) why couldn't it be Y that is intersting and exciting
b) why couldn't we have a choice in what kind of Y we want
Srsly, virus, think about it, 79 bloody currencies and commodities while only 3 of those are actually useful. The rest are space fillers.
Almost anything can be thought of as a currency, though, if one wants to think about them as such. Those particles...currency or crafting materials? They're also used for certain projects. Mk I Photon Torps? Useful? Who actually uses Common Mk I Photons? Are they just a currency then for Fleet Military projects?
Something of value that can traded...could be called a currency. Basically almost all loot becomes currency.
When it comes to what the OP is talking about, though, it's simply a case of not wanting to do the same thing over and over again to get what they want...it's not about all the various things one could consider currency in the game. They want to do whatever they want to do and be rewarded as if they were doing something else.
Let's say they removed the "Marks" and replaced them with RepXP. Currently, it takes ~1200 Marks without Sponsorship to go from T0 to T5. So...they'd just remove the "Marks" and replace it with equivalent RepXP. You're still going to have to do the content as much as you would if the "Marks" didn't exist. When it comes to gear, would it only become available after you hit T5 and had acquired additional levels of RepXP - unlocking the ability to purchase a single piece at each additional level of RepXP reached? Er...basically taking the same amount of time as it does now. They could even add in the equivalent run the content a certain amount of times to gain a certain amount of RepXP so that you even gained bonus Dil as if you were trading in Marks.
So they could completely remove the Marks...and...it would change what? Wouldn't change a thing. The system would be more complicated and less user friendly. You couldn't decide when to do certain things like you can now, where you hit T2 and decide to go for a piece of gear before going for T3. Wouldn't be as easy to keep track of things - having the Marks for an easy reference on progress.
So what's the point of getting rid of the Marks?
Unless it is simply a case that folks don't want to do certain content but they want to be rewarded as if they had?
There are only 4 currencies in the game, Energy Credits, Zen, Dilithium, and Gold Pressed Latinum. I am only including GPL as a currency because it was a currency in Star Trek. A currency has to have some form of economy or else it is not a currency. The other items are just arcade tokens or project inputs. Without that distinction, then we have to include duty officers, expertise, photon torpedoes, hypos, and other ridiculous items as currencies. After all, there is no difference between a Mark and a Duty Officer as far as projects go. You have to do some task to get them and then donate them to a project.
.
This. Thats the reason i was so amazed.. 14 currencies?? lol... dont think so. If you put it that way, we will have 100 type of currencies..
Reputation existed long before there were computers.
...
You scratch Mary's back, do you expect Sue to scratch your back?
Hmmm I like the argument.
But thou it's valid, I do not see it this way completely.
I take it as a game, the game's purpose is to provide entertainment. While the game's activity may resemble real life, but it also may not. And by god, the act of playing an stf and moving silly sliders once in a day does not in any way resemble the act of building my own personal reputation in real life. Dunno. I guess my immersion into the game just doesn't go that far.
So the collection of activities that is called "omega reputation" does not resemble "real life reputation" in any way, therefore the argument while being valid, is also perfectly wrong. And simply do not apply here.
Furthermore, because the argument is wrong all the thesis built on it, will also be wrong.
It may called be "chicken sink" instead of "omega reputation" for all I care.
Various games have you build reputation with various factions to gain access to items or areas those factions have. It's nothing new to the MMO industry.
I'm trying to recall a MMO that I've played that hasn't done that.
But thou it's valid, I do not see it this way completely.
I've seen this somewhere else, phrased somewhat differently: "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
It makes discussion utterly useless, too, once someone admits "Even if your argument is right, I'm going to interpret some loophole to mean it doesn't really count so I'm right no matter what."
I've seen this somewhere else, phrased somewhat differently: "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
It makes discussion utterly useless, too, once someone admits "Even if your argument is right, I'm going to interpret some loophole to mean it doesn't really count so I'm right no matter what."
Last time I checked argument requires at least two different viewpoints. No point arguing with that.
Argument or a thesis (if you wish) can be valid (applicable), and then it can be right or wrong.
So the bottom line of my post is "yes I believe the argument is valid, however I believe it's wrong because...". If by all means this is easier for you read. For me it was just more fun to write it the way I did.
Various games have you build reputation with various factions to gain access to items or areas those factions have. It's nothing new to the MMO industry.
I'm trying to recall a MMO that I've played that hasn't done that.
We both agree that main reason behind collection of activities they call "XYZ reputation" is player retention over time. Do we?
Now it's arguable that "Sto reputation" has anything to do with the real life thing called "reputation" and I choose to believe it is not. For whatever reasons.
However all of it is besides the point.
The point as I see it:
* rep is the cheap way of forcing ppl to stay over time
* the way it's done is total copy-paste job
* and amount of different currencies (or whatnot) in the game is simply ridiculous
We both agree that main reason behind collection of activities they call "XYZ reputation" is player retention over time. Do we?
It's something to do, like anything else in the game - and like everything else, it's optional to do. As for the player retention aspect, even if it is retaining players - it's not necessarily retaining players for the same reason. Which basically just takes it back to being something to do, like anything else in the game...which basically goes to the fundamental everything in the game being there for player retention over time.
Now it's arguable that "Sto reputation" has anything to do with the real life thing called "reputation" and I choose to believe it is not. For whatever reasons.
But that's akin to my saying that it's arguable that cupcakes are a food item, but I choose to believe they are not.
The reputation system in STO is very simple. You do something for one of the factions you can gain reputation with, and you get something in return. You've earned favor with them, and they favor you in return. Etc, etc, etc.
* rep is the cheap way of forcing ppl to stay over time
* the way it's done is total copy-paste job
* and amount of different currencies (or whatnot) in the game is simply ridiculous
Reputation is optional. It is not forcing anybody to do anything. There is no forcing of anything involved. Whether one is talking about playing the game at all or even if one is talking about the content itself in the game. You don't need to do the Rep to do any content...for that matter...you've usually done the Rep until you're bored to tears before completing it or acquiring the gear. It's entirely optional...
Can it be a form of optional player retention? Sure...but so is simply having social zones or a chat system.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by a total copy-paste job? Do you mean amongst the various Reps? Do you mean from some other game?
You've basically labeled everything in the game a currency though. That's a personal opinion that several have posted they do not share.
Even if the Marks were removed and replaced with some of Reputation XP bar or figure, it wold not change that you had to do the content with that particular faction to earn it.
The currency argument is a ploy to distract from the apparent issue...
Okay, so let's say we removed Marks as well as the additional special tokens.
So for each 20 hour project, you'd be looking at: 300 Dilithium, 2000 Expertise, 15,000 Energy Credits
As well as tracking some form of RepXP with said faction.
The gear that's unlocked at various tiers would then in turn cost (as a pair of examples)...
Space Set Piece: 44,600 Dilithium, 40,000 Energy Credits
Weapon Set Piece: 20,000 Dilithium, 40,000 Energy Credits
...as long as you had unlocked the tier required to buy the item.
Well, no - the Dilithium cost wouldn't be that low. That's based on the conversion from Marks to Dil as well as special tokens to Dil. That's likely got a significant transactional fee built into it.
So the Dilithium costs would be much higher than what's listed above. The Weapon Set Pieces would have to cost more than the regular store items...so the increase in Dilithium cost could be significant.
At the same time, you'd be removing the ability to convert Marks and special tokens to Dilithium - reducing your overall potential ability to earn Dilithium - where with the current system you may have filled the Mark requirements and been short on the Dil, you could have continued running the content to convert the Marks and tokens to Dil. You'd lose that option.
So you'd be increasing your demand for Dilithium while decreasing your ability to produce it.
That would adversely affect the Dilithium-ZEN Exchange, as the amount of Dil per ZEN would drop. Up to a certain point, folks might continue to buy ZEN for Dil - but at some point they would stop.
Folks that farmed Dil in the hopes of selling it to folks that had bought ZEN - would lose access to ZEN in that fashion.
So...we'd have Group A of players quit, Group B of players quit, and Group C would end up moaning as Cryptic had to shut the game down...
...or folks that wanted certain gear from certain Reps could just do the content for those Reps like everybody else, eh?
The currency argument is a ploy to distract from the apparent issue...
...of not wanting to do the content for a faction to earn the reward.
Doh
Funny we should have *THIS* conversation on Elachi Alert weekend
Nah Im not saying "lets get rid of marks" and god forbid "replace marks input with dil input in rep projects". Im so totally not saying it.
All im saying is that there are way too many currencies and marks. Way too many.
And what surprise me the most is when i start ranting "gosh there are so little marks in this game by god we need another dozen", ppls tell me "yo, dude, every reputation track has gotta have it's own marks". And when I not so politely inquire where did ya come with that BS, all I can seem to get is "Devs in their eternal wisdom has granted us ultimate knowledge that it has to be dat way PERIOD".
And here we come to the ever so magnifient Elachi Alert Weekend, that devs in the same eternal wisdom has blessed us with. Hallelujah.
Because I really truly belive that once at least one toon on the account has done all the reps, all the rest of the toons on the account should have access to the Elachi Alert Queue in its current format: i.e. 10 mins little bother rewarding 100 odd marks of any rep of your choice. And Im really surprised why am I having so difficult time trying to convince you in that beautiful idea. Srsly.
PS. and while counting I left out Lobi (okay we got 4 useful currencies) and Latinum. So grant total would be 81 currencies and commodities. How about that eh? 81. Eighty One.
When STO launched there was a handful of different currencies for various thing. You had your regular C-Points and Energy Credits; but then a bunch of different things such as Marks of Exploration, Badges of Exploration, Honor, Starlfeet Merits, etc. In total, about 11 different currencies. At the time you guys at Cryptic announced that this was too many and was to confusing; and that the bulk of the different currencies would all be rolled up into one currency, Dilithium. Of which you had two forms, Ore and Refined; this was to help cap the amount of usable Dilithium out there as people had, and still do have millions if not billions of EC.
Time has passed and it seems now that Cryptic has decided to go back to the old ways and even gone one step further. It now seems that ever new 'big thing' released has it's own currency system attached to it. We are currently up to 18 currencies, and I probably am forgetting a few.
Which is really just ridiculous. I know there's been talk about a need to create an EC hole so that players don't just keep building up EC into the millions; but the current plan seems to be to give us more money of different types, rather then give us a way to get rid of EC!
Now In the real world I don't carry anywhere near that much different currencies (I have regular cash, and a couple points programs, at most I'm at 6 different currencies. Oh and I can transfer currency points making them kind of mute).
And as a casual gamer all these new currencies are primarily grinding currencies, which isn't how I want to spend my time in the game. But if I want any of the new stuff being released I have to spend what little free time I have to play STO doing the same thing over and over again so I can buy what I want.
So my request is simple:
1) get rid of all these marks & badges; convert them to Dilithium or EC.
2) let us spend our 3 currencies on the new stuff; mainly EC so that we can get rid of the millions we quickly earn up
3) If you insist on keeping the 20-odd currencies allow us to exchange them. Buying Marks for EC would be a good way to start draining our EC amounts.
peter
Lol, you must not play many other mmo's, STO has hardly any currencies compared to most, LOTRO at one point had around 40 currencies not including event ones, RIFT has around 25 basic currencies plus event currencies, usually at least 2 currencies per event, so it must have in the region of 50 currencies by now and that's after they removed some of them recently. 11 plus special event currencies is nothing
they could eliminate at least half of their new currencies if they would stop making each holiday event need it's own marks, in the end you either grind so much you can't spend it all, or just miss the mark by a couple of days. either way we then are stuck with these holiday marks we can't spend for an entire year.
one holiday mark, that can carry over from one holiday to the very next would resolve a situation that shouldn't be in the first place.
It doesn't matter what we, consider currency in the game. What matters is what cryptic does. Cryptic considers Marks, tokens, and badges as currency, therefore, they are in fact currency in the game.
As for needing to do certain content to get certain marks, Given that you can get multiple types of marks from not only the current weekend event, but the fact that at any give time one can step into ANR and decide from Fleet, Romulan and or Nukara marks, its clear, Cryptic is not of that mind set.
Now, this leads us to a point, Currently we have a few factions who have special items that are required for certain items. (BNP's Isomorphs, Cybernetic implants) Those are the ONLY specific items we need outside of a generic mark that one can earn anywhere in the game. Standardize the amount earned across the board (my suggestion would be to average the amounts earned on dyson/defera and run that) and go.
As for people not playing certain content over others, that happens naturally in this style of game for many reasons. What they need to look at is WHY it happens and adjust the content that isn't getting played to make it more viable.
Op, I tend to agree with you. In fact, I would like to see a ton of these currencies slashed down into this little list:
1. EC
2. Dil
3. Zen
3. Fleet credits
5. Performance Marks (combined borg, romulan, fleet, etc etc etc)
I don't consider Risa pearls and BNPs and Risa eggs to be a currency. Those are actually just items we trade in for a currency. These are no different than the junk items we pick up and sell for EC.
However, all the different kinds of marks exists to FORCE us to play the boring content. If we could get all the marks we need from ISE...there would be o reason to do anything else.
Also, I say we get rid of the Lobi consortium, and put EVERYTHING on the zen store. Anyone with outstanding Lobi crystals gets some Dil back for every Lobi. I think the Lobi store is the biggest rip off in the history of this game. You literally need to pay money, to pay crystals, to get a one-time ship. However, this won't happen because Cryptic loves money. Who cares about all the fans paying our bills with lockbox purchases.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you oppose the Reputation nerf, feel free to use my signature
However, all the different kinds of marks exists to FORCE us to play the boring content.
Correct. And that's exactly why they're here to stay, no matter what hair-splitting label like "currency," "trade tokens," or "content gating" we apply to them.
We now return you to our regularly-scheduled waste of time debating what to call them while ignoring the real issues.
Correct. And that's exactly why they're here to stay, no matter what hair-splitting label like "currency," "trade tokens," or "content gating" we apply to them.
We now return you to our regularly-scheduled waste of time debating what to call them while ignoring the real issues.
There's a piece of pie in the kitchen if you want it.
Ohmygherd, you're going to force me to get it?
Yeah, the "force" complaints are pretty much that pathetic. You want something. You have to do something to get it. Oh God, they're forcing you to do something! The horror of it all!
There was a snippet left out of your quote from naked there...
If we could get all the marks we need from ISE...there would be o reason to do anything else.
It's not that we'd be running ISE because it's fun! No, we'd be running ISE because it would be the path of least resistance...it's the easiest and fastest way. It has nothing to do with fun. If ISE took longer or rewarded less, folks might actually run what they find fun...
Yeah, the "force" complaints are pretty much that pathetic. You want something. You have to do something to get it. Oh God, they're forcing you to do something! The horror of it all!
I know, but apparently that's the latest contender for "most-beaten horse headed for death" these days. Given how lame it is, I expect it's only a matter of time for it to reach its logical conclusion: That requiring us to log in before handing us all the top rewards for all storylines and reps is evil, "forcing us to play." :rolleyes:
Some people's children won't be happy until online gaming has gone entirely Special Olympics. "Thanks for signing up, here's your Omega Rep set."
Meh, I usually run an entire rep set only on my primary character to determine if the grind is worth doing on another character. So far, I've only bothered to grind a couple of other reps on a couple other characters because the rewards were thematically appropriate. That said, there will come a point when I look at the next rep grind Cryptic rolls out and say, "Ughnaut rep? I think I'd rather devote my limited time to running something fun with my fleeties and friends." IMHO, rep grind is also a contributing factor to the power creep everyone claims to hate.
"Susse-thrai" had been the name bestowed upon her, half in anger, half in affection, by her old crew on Bloodwing; the keen-nosed, cranky, wily old she-beast, never less dangerous than when you thought her defenseless, and always growing new teeth far back in her throat to replace the old ones broken in biting out the last foe's heart. Romulans: left one homeworld, lost another, third time's the charm?
Comments
Yeah, I don't get why folks don't understand the simple concept of...Reputation System...developing Reputation with a Group and being Rewarded by said Group. Heck, we have the same thing in our day to day lives. Buy 5x sandwiches at store A, get a free sandwich. You can't buy 5x sandwiches from store B and expect a free sandwich from store A. It's such a fundamental thing...folks just don't want to do certain content because they find other content easier.
That's precisely why they throw those words around...because it is such a simple thing to sit on one's TRIBBLE for hours/days to do something...and yet people still whine that it's too much. That's how pathetic they come off...you pointed it out yourself. So how can you not understand it?
You want the gear from a specific rep system, then do the missions that reward the marks for that specific rep system.
If you don't want to bother with those missions, then simply don't bother to get the gear.
It is a simple concept.
1. Zen
2. Dilithium
3. EC
4. Omega Marks
5. BNP
6. Dyson Marks
7. Dyson thingies
8. Romulan Marks
9. Nukara Marks
10. Undine marks
11. Undine thingies
12. Fleet Marks
13. Mine provisions (YEAH IT IS A CURRENCY)
14. Embassy provisions (you get the picture)
15. Spire provisions (why on earth there are so many)
16. Qmendations
17. Photos of Q
18. Lolnut favors
19. Lolnuts themselves
20. Fleet Credits
21. 6 x winter event commodities (but they are currency too)
27 TOTAL.
Did I miss anything?
I think OP original point wasn't about "doing or not doing specific content", I believe he's rather asking why in the name of tribble there are so many bloody currencies.
28. Crystalline thingies (from CEE event)
29. Mirror event thingies (mirror event)
Let's continue with commodities:
30. 6 x GQ commodities
36. 10 x particle traces
46. 18 x silly particles (forgot what they are)
64. 15 x commodities.
79 so far...
Few months ago I while ranting about it I took a picture of account bank and toon bank on random toon. So Behold:
http://tinypic.com/r/vrvqrd/8
http://tinypic.com/r/2nj9647/8
But the OP specifically stated...
...they didn't want to do specific content to get what they wanted.
Okay, fair enuff, let's rephrase it then: instead of
"I believe he's rather asking why in the name of tribble there are so many bloody currencies."
We'll go with
"I believe he's should be asking why in the name of tribble there are so many bloody currencies."
Srsly, virus, think about it, 79 bloody currencies and commodities while only 3 of those are actually useful. The rest are space fillers.
Because each rep needs it own marks. If I only fight against the Borg, then why should I be entitled to rep gear from the Dyson rep system?
I dislike people who think they are "entitled" simply because they exist. You want it? Then earn it. No one is preventing you from doing so.
Doh...
Says who? Where in the holy scriptures does it actually say that "each rep needs it own marks"? Srsly? The genesis of the whole thing as far as I can see is this:
* Someone came up with idea of marks
* Marks got implemented
* Then the whole thing got copy pasted over and over and over again
The overall design model is "you spend X amount of time doing Y to earn Z". Naturally ppl will gravitate towards more interesting Y to spend their time X with. Multiple treads about "why on earth can't we get fleet marks for stfs" is proof enuff. And, between us girls, how many of you are actually enjoying raising epohs to get romulan marks? Raise your hands, and please be honest about it.
So I am asking: if we're bound to spend time X doing Y, then
a) why couldn't it be Y that is intersting and exciting
b) why couldn't we have a choice in what kind of Y we want
As for that:
I belive I am a customer, so yea I kinda feel I'm entitled to something.
Almost anything can be thought of as a currency, though, if one wants to think about them as such. Those particles...currency or crafting materials? They're also used for certain projects. Mk I Photon Torps? Useful? Who actually uses Common Mk I Photons? Are they just a currency then for Fleet Military projects?
Something of value that can traded...could be called a currency. Basically almost all loot becomes currency.
When it comes to what the OP is talking about, though, it's simply a case of not wanting to do the same thing over and over again to get what they want...it's not about all the various things one could consider currency in the game. They want to do whatever they want to do and be rewarded as if they were doing something else.
Let's say they removed the "Marks" and replaced them with RepXP. Currently, it takes ~1200 Marks without Sponsorship to go from T0 to T5. So...they'd just remove the "Marks" and replace it with equivalent RepXP. You're still going to have to do the content as much as you would if the "Marks" didn't exist. When it comes to gear, would it only become available after you hit T5 and had acquired additional levels of RepXP - unlocking the ability to purchase a single piece at each additional level of RepXP reached? Er...basically taking the same amount of time as it does now. They could even add in the equivalent run the content a certain amount of times to gain a certain amount of RepXP so that you even gained bonus Dil as if you were trading in Marks.
So they could completely remove the Marks...and...it would change what? Wouldn't change a thing. The system would be more complicated and less user friendly. You couldn't decide when to do certain things like you can now, where you hit T2 and decide to go for a piece of gear before going for T3. Wouldn't be as easy to keep track of things - having the Marks for an easy reference on progress.
So what's the point of getting rid of the Marks?
Unless it is simply a case that folks don't want to do certain content but they want to be rewarded as if they had?
Reputation existed long before there were computers.
You buy flowers, candy, jewelry for Lucy...do you expect a kiss from Jenny?
You put gas in the SUV, do you expect there to be gas in the sedan?
You're a frequent customer at Sal's Pharmacy, do you expect a discount at Joe's?
You work for the lawfirm of Abott Costello, do you expect a paycheck from the lawfirm of Laurel Hardy?
You scratch Mary's back, do you expect Sue to scratch your back?
This. Thats the reason i was so amazed.. 14 currencies?? lol... dont think so. If you put it that way, we will have 100 type of currencies..
Hmmm I like the argument.
But thou it's valid, I do not see it this way completely.
I take it as a game, the game's purpose is to provide entertainment. While the game's activity may resemble real life, but it also may not. And by god, the act of playing an stf and moving silly sliders once in a day does not in any way resemble the act of building my own personal reputation in real life. Dunno. I guess my immersion into the game just doesn't go that far.
So the collection of activities that is called "omega reputation" does not resemble "real life reputation" in any way, therefore the argument while being valid, is also perfectly wrong. And simply do not apply here.
Furthermore, because the argument is wrong all the thesis built on it, will also be wrong.
It may called be "chicken sink" instead of "omega reputation" for all I care.
I'm trying to recall a MMO that I've played that hasn't done that.
I've seen this somewhere else, phrased somewhat differently: "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
It makes discussion utterly useless, too, once someone admits "Even if your argument is right, I'm going to interpret some loophole to mean it doesn't really count so I'm right no matter what."
Last time I checked argument requires at least two different viewpoints. No point arguing with that.
Argument or a thesis (if you wish) can be valid (applicable), and then it can be right or wrong.
So the bottom line of my post is "yes I believe the argument is valid, however I believe it's wrong because...". If by all means this is easier for you read. For me it was just more fun to write it the way I did.
We both agree that main reason behind collection of activities they call "XYZ reputation" is player retention over time. Do we?
Now it's arguable that "Sto reputation" has anything to do with the real life thing called "reputation" and I choose to believe it is not. For whatever reasons.
However all of it is besides the point.
The point as I see it:
* rep is the cheap way of forcing ppl to stay over time
* the way it's done is total copy-paste job
* and amount of different currencies (or whatnot) in the game is simply ridiculous
Hence the op dissatisfaction. And mine too.
It's something to do, like anything else in the game - and like everything else, it's optional to do. As for the player retention aspect, even if it is retaining players - it's not necessarily retaining players for the same reason. Which basically just takes it back to being something to do, like anything else in the game...which basically goes to the fundamental everything in the game being there for player retention over time.
But that's akin to my saying that it's arguable that cupcakes are a food item, but I choose to believe they are not.
The reputation system in STO is very simple. You do something for one of the factions you can gain reputation with, and you get something in return. You've earned favor with them, and they favor you in return. Etc, etc, etc.
It's the very essence of the point. If you do not see STO's Reputation as Reputation...then...er...um...well...uh...
Reputation is optional. It is not forcing anybody to do anything. There is no forcing of anything involved. Whether one is talking about playing the game at all or even if one is talking about the content itself in the game. You don't need to do the Rep to do any content...for that matter...you've usually done the Rep until you're bored to tears before completing it or acquiring the gear. It's entirely optional...
Can it be a form of optional player retention? Sure...but so is simply having social zones or a chat system.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by a total copy-paste job? Do you mean amongst the various Reps? Do you mean from some other game?
You've basically labeled everything in the game a currency though. That's a personal opinion that several have posted they do not share.
Even if the Marks were removed and replaced with some of Reputation XP bar or figure, it wold not change that you had to do the content with that particular faction to earn it.
The currency argument is a ploy to distract from the apparent issue...
...of not wanting to do the content for a faction to earn the reward.
So for each 20 hour project, you'd be looking at: 300 Dilithium, 2000 Expertise, 15,000 Energy Credits
As well as tracking some form of RepXP with said faction.
The gear that's unlocked at various tiers would then in turn cost (as a pair of examples)...
Space Set Piece: 44,600 Dilithium, 40,000 Energy Credits
Weapon Set Piece: 20,000 Dilithium, 40,000 Energy Credits
...as long as you had unlocked the tier required to buy the item.
Well, no - the Dilithium cost wouldn't be that low. That's based on the conversion from Marks to Dil as well as special tokens to Dil. That's likely got a significant transactional fee built into it.
So the Dilithium costs would be much higher than what's listed above. The Weapon Set Pieces would have to cost more than the regular store items...so the increase in Dilithium cost could be significant.
At the same time, you'd be removing the ability to convert Marks and special tokens to Dilithium - reducing your overall potential ability to earn Dilithium - where with the current system you may have filled the Mark requirements and been short on the Dil, you could have continued running the content to convert the Marks and tokens to Dil. You'd lose that option.
So you'd be increasing your demand for Dilithium while decreasing your ability to produce it.
That would adversely affect the Dilithium-ZEN Exchange, as the amount of Dil per ZEN would drop. Up to a certain point, folks might continue to buy ZEN for Dil - but at some point they would stop.
Folks that farmed Dil in the hopes of selling it to folks that had bought ZEN - would lose access to ZEN in that fashion.
So...we'd have Group A of players quit, Group B of players quit, and Group C would end up moaning as Cryptic had to shut the game down...
...or folks that wanted certain gear from certain Reps could just do the content for those Reps like everybody else, eh?
Doh
Funny we should have *THIS* conversation on Elachi Alert weekend
Nah Im not saying "lets get rid of marks" and god forbid "replace marks input with dil input in rep projects". Im so totally not saying it.
All im saying is that there are way too many currencies and marks. Way too many.
And what surprise me the most is when i start ranting "gosh there are so little marks in this game by god we need another dozen", ppls tell me "yo, dude, every reputation track has gotta have it's own marks". And when I not so politely inquire where did ya come with that BS, all I can seem to get is "Devs in their eternal wisdom has granted us ultimate knowledge that it has to be dat way PERIOD".
And here we come to the ever so magnifient Elachi Alert Weekend, that devs in the same eternal wisdom has blessed us with. Hallelujah.
Because I really truly belive that once at least one toon on the account has done all the reps, all the rest of the toons on the account should have access to the Elachi Alert Queue in its current format: i.e. 10 mins little bother rewarding 100 odd marks of any rep of your choice. And Im really surprised why am I having so difficult time trying to convince you in that beautiful idea. Srsly.
PS. and while counting I left out Lobi (okay we got 4 useful currencies) and Latinum. So grant total would be 81 currencies and commodities. How about that eh? 81. Eighty One.
Lol, you must not play many other mmo's, STO has hardly any currencies compared to most, LOTRO at one point had around 40 currencies not including event ones, RIFT has around 25 basic currencies plus event currencies, usually at least 2 currencies per event, so it must have in the region of 50 currencies by now and that's after they removed some of them recently. 11 plus special event currencies is nothing
Wooooo! Money party!!!!!
one holiday mark, that can carry over from one holiday to the very next would resolve a situation that shouldn't be in the first place.
Me playing UT2k4 (red guy) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0DnP7wXnU
As for needing to do certain content to get certain marks, Given that you can get multiple types of marks from not only the current weekend event, but the fact that at any give time one can step into ANR and decide from Fleet, Romulan and or Nukara marks, its clear, Cryptic is not of that mind set.
Now, this leads us to a point, Currently we have a few factions who have special items that are required for certain items. (BNP's Isomorphs, Cybernetic implants) Those are the ONLY specific items we need outside of a generic mark that one can earn anywhere in the game. Standardize the amount earned across the board (my suggestion would be to average the amounts earned on dyson/defera and run that) and go.
As for people not playing certain content over others, that happens naturally in this style of game for many reasons. What they need to look at is WHY it happens and adjust the content that isn't getting played to make it more viable.
1. EC
2. Dil
3. Zen
3. Fleet credits
5. Performance Marks (combined borg, romulan, fleet, etc etc etc)
I don't consider Risa pearls and BNPs and Risa eggs to be a currency. Those are actually just items we trade in for a currency. These are no different than the junk items we pick up and sell for EC.
However, all the different kinds of marks exists to FORCE us to play the boring content. If we could get all the marks we need from ISE...there would be o reason to do anything else.
Also, I say we get rid of the Lobi consortium, and put EVERYTHING on the zen store. Anyone with outstanding Lobi crystals gets some Dil back for every Lobi. I think the Lobi store is the biggest rip off in the history of this game. You literally need to pay money, to pay crystals, to get a one-time ship. However, this won't happen because Cryptic loves money. Who cares about all the fans paying our bills with lockbox purchases.
Correct. And that's exactly why they're here to stay, no matter what hair-splitting label like "currency," "trade tokens," or "content gating" we apply to them.
We now return you to our regularly-scheduled waste of time debating what to call them while ignoring the real issues.
There's a piece of pie in the kitchen if you want it.
Ohmygherd, you're going to force me to get it?
Yeah, the "force" complaints are pretty much that pathetic. You want something. You have to do something to get it. Oh God, they're forcing you to do something! The horror of it all!
There was a snippet left out of your quote from naked there...
It's not that we'd be running ISE because it's fun! No, we'd be running ISE because it would be the path of least resistance...it's the easiest and fastest way. It has nothing to do with fun. If ISE took longer or rewarded less, folks might actually run what they find fun...
I know, but apparently that's the latest contender for "most-beaten horse headed for death" these days. Given how lame it is, I expect it's only a matter of time for it to reach its logical conclusion: That requiring us to log in before handing us all the top rewards for all storylines and reps is evil, "forcing us to play." :rolleyes:
Some people's children won't be happy until online gaming has gone entirely Special Olympics. "Thanks for signing up, here's your Omega Rep set."
Romulans: left one homeworld, lost another, third time's the charm?