Question about Gorn.

f9thretxc

I have made a Gorn toon, that I am enjoying very much, even went so far, to buy all Gorn Bof's, but my inquiry lies elsewhere.

I just watched Arena, to get a better idea, and in the episode, Kirk, makes the statement to the effect, that don't drop the screens, we don't want the enemies phasers getting through, and then turns around and makes a comment about the Gorn using Disruptor cannons or the like (Mortars?) .

My question is, according to cannon, as I have not viewed much of the other ST series, (Old TRIBBLE here.) , What is the proper weapon set up for the Gorn? Disruptors or Phasers?

Thanks ahead of time for any help with this, I just want to remain as close to cannon as possible with this character.

misterde3

Well the sad thing is that there are two canon appearances of the Gorn and the other one does not include ships.
So what we pretty much have IS what's in "Arena". That episode has references to disruptors and later to
"They poured it on like...
like phasers, only worse, whatever they were using."
And that's pretty much it.
My guess from those lines would indeed be to go with disruptors.

f9thretxc

Right-O, Disruptors it is then. Thanks misterde3.

I was afraid they wouldn't have a whole lot available on the screen with the Gorn, but I had to ask.

misterde3

My pleasure.:)
Yeah it's really sad that there isn't more.
In the unremastered version of that epidode they didn't even have a ship.

f9thretxc

Oh wow, I had no idea they took the ship out. Of course even with the original, all you saw was a view from the back, for the most part. Had a large white body with the nacelles coming off the pylons at sort of a wide "V" angle.

Still, now I don't have to waste my time, trying to find the remastered then. so, thanks again.

artan42

f9thretxc wrote: »

Oh wow, I had no idea they took the ship out. Of course even with the original, all you saw was a view from the back, for the most part. Had a large white body with the nacelles coming off the pylons at sort of a wide "V" angle.

Still, now I don't have to waste my time, trying to find the remastered then. so, thanks again.

No, they put the ship in .

The originals didn't have one, the new ones do.

here.

You can really see where Cryptic got the inspiration for their versions from now :P.

f9thretxc

Ahh ok, thanks for the correction. I had watched the episode on netflix earlier today, so I had no idea which version they had going.

abaddon653

artan42 wrote: »

No, they put the ship in .

The originals didn't have one, the new ones do.

here.

You can really see where Cryptic got the inspiration for their versions from now :P.

Ooooooh, hey that's pretty sweet! I WANT ONE!

f9thretxc

I have to admit, that does look nice. Real heavy top, just like I would imagine a Gorn Ship to be.

Is that an early model from when they put it in the show, or a fan made kit bash type thing? Either way, that is way too nice not to have in game.

artan42

f9thretxc wrote: »

I have to admit, that does look nice. Real heavy top, just like I would imagine a Gorn Ship to be.

Is that an early model from when they put it in the show, or a fan made kit bash type thing? Either way, that is way too nice not to have in game.

It's what they put in the episode, for some reason thy only did a long distance low poly model.


Also compare these Orion Ships to Cryptics designs.

I want these dammit Cryptic.

f9thretxc

Now those Orion ships take me back to my old Starfleet command days. Talk about fun back in the day. Strangely enough, on the Fed side, I've got friends from way back in 1999, who started a fleet, and of course they graduated to this game.

I think I'll fit in nice also with the Klingon side of things also, esp. since it seems if you ask a question here, you get solid advice. Not quite the same at ESD.

shaanithegreen

Star Trek is actually really inconsistent on what is a phaser/disruptor/plasma weapon. There are phasers that shoot plasma beams, Klingons that use phasers, lasers are worthless against Federation ships unless the Borg have them, quantum torpedoes have plasma warheads, ect.

It's why we have hybrid weapons.

warmaker001b

In terms of the onscreen stuff, you won't find any Gorn ships. That's been left to everything outside of that. I have not checked any of the Star Trek books. But I have played many Star Trek games. Starfleet Command (SFC series) could had you playing several of the powers from Star Trek. SFC1 & 2 were set in the TMP-era movies, where Sulu is captain of the Excelsior. SFC3 was set in the TNG/DS9-ish era.

Anyways, SFC1 & 2 could let you play as the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Lyrans, Hydrans, Gorn, and maybe 1 or 2 more that I'm forgetting.

So far, outside STO, SFC1 & 2 were the only Star Trek games having Gorn ships.

I remember the overall feel still between some of the factions.

Starfleet ships were a careful balance in defense, firepower, robustness, maneuverability. They can do any duty you can think of, but they were not "specialized" to the extent the other factions were. You had the firepower and shielding to trade shots with the slashing attacks of the Klingon ships... play it right and you can attrit the Klingons by outlasting them. You had the maneuverability and the enough firepower to make the Romulans regret the wrong move.

Klingon ships were fast, maneuverable, mediocre shielding, decent hull. There was no side arcs. Almost everything fired forward with a few in the rear... and this was stuff like the D-7 and K'T'Inga, while the Bird of Prey took that extreme further. I always felt ship-to-ship engagements were very easy with the Klingons, but the weaker hull & shields were a detriment in "siege" type fighting where we had to bust down something like a Starbase. There were very few "Dreadnought" style ships and those were critical for such a setting, because Klingon ships in general were a bit on the "light side" for busting big Starbases.

Romulan ships were tough as hell, had cloaks, massive firepower forward, but terrible maneuverability. Disruptors and Plasma Torps were their staple. Again, charged up Plasma Torpedoes were killers in close range and grew weak with more range. Coming out of cloaks with an arsenal of charged Plasma Torps at close range and unleashing them on something pretty much won half the fight for you already. They had the big ships and firepower to make busting Starbases easy. But ship-to-ship fighting really needed a good hand, because their large cruisers on up were sluggish as hell. But again, if you played your first decloaking strike right, most of your work was done already.

Gorn. Tough, unwieldy ships with firepower. Armed like Romulans with Disruptors and Plasmas (with all the strengths & weaknesses of Plasma Torps). But unlike the Romulans and Klingons, Gorn ships were even in their weapon distribution. There was no weak side or rear arcs. Gorn ships were specifically designed to get close and trade shots. They had the firepower, staying power, and firing arcs to do this and come out winning. The poor maneuverability was a liability in that it allowed something faster like the Klingons to dictate the initiative and range. But if you can get close and stay close, your odds of winning shoot up.

f9thretxc

It's possible I know you from over there warmaker. I was/am a mod for interplay/Taldren/Dynaverse.

Sirgod aka Stephen over in those parts.

abaddon653

So are the new ships from the remastered series canon?

artan42

abaddon653 wrote: »

So are the new ships from the remastered series canon?

Yes. The Remastered series is the canon version.

abaddon653

artan42 wrote: »

Yes. The Remastered series is the canon version.

You don't say....hmmmmm.....*strokes beard thoughtfully*

shadokitty

I have a Gorn too. Still a commander, so he's in a Bird of Prey.

charon2

warmaker001b wrote: »

In terms of the onscreen stuff, you won't find any Gorn ships. That's been left to everything outside of that. I have not checked any of the Star Trek books. But I have played many Star Trek games. Starfleet Command (SFC series) could had you playing several of the powers from Star Trek. SFC1 & 2 were set in the TMP-era movies, where Sulu is captain of the Excelsior. SFC3 was set in the TNG/DS9-ish era.

Anyways, SFC1 & 2 could let you play as the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Lyrans, Hydrans, Gorn, and maybe 1 or 2 more that I'm forgetting.

So far, outside STO, SFC1 & 2 were the only Star Trek games having Gorn ships.

I remember the overall feel still between some of the factions.

Starfleet ships were a careful balance in defense, firepower, robustness, maneuverability. They can do any duty you can think of, but they were not "specialized" to the extent the other factions were. You had the firepower and shielding to trade shots with the slashing attacks of the Klingon ships... play it right and you can attrit the Klingons by outlasting them. You had the maneuverability and the enough firepower to make the Romulans regret the wrong move.

Klingon ships were fast, maneuverable, mediocre shielding, decent hull. There was no side arcs. Almost everything fired forward with a few in the rear... and this was stuff like the D-7 and K'T'Inga, while the Bird of Prey took that extreme further. I always felt ship-to-ship engagements were very easy with the Klingons, but the weaker hull & shields were a detriment in "siege" type fighting where we had to bust down something like a Starbase. There were very few "Dreadnought" style ships and those were critical for such a setting, because Klingon ships in general were a bit on the "light side" for busting big Starbases.

Romulan ships were tough as hell, had cloaks, massive firepower forward, but terrible maneuverability. Disruptors and Plasma Torps were their staple. Again, charged up Plasma Torpedoes were killers in close range and grew weak with more range. Coming out of cloaks with an arsenal of charged Plasma Torps at close range and unleashing them on something pretty much won half the fight for you already. They had the big ships and firepower to make busting Starbases easy. But ship-to-ship fighting really needed a good hand, because their large cruisers on up were sluggish as hell. But again, if you played your first decloaking strike right, most of your work was done already.

Gorn. Tough, unwieldy ships with firepower. Armed like Romulans with Disruptors and Plasmas (with all the strengths & weaknesses of Plasma Torps). But unlike the Romulans and Klingons, Gorn ships were even in their weapon distribution. There was no weak side or rear arcs. Gorn ships were specifically designed to get close and trade shots. They had the firepower, staying power, and firing arcs to do this and come out winning. The poor maneuverability was a liability in that it allowed something faster like the Klingons to dictate the initiative and range. But if you can get close and stay close, your odds of winning shoot up.

Loved the post, I miss SFC2. However neither to romulans nor gorn used disruptors in that game

misterde3

charon2 wrote: »

Loved the post, I miss SFC2. However neither to romulans nor gorn used disruptors in that game

Yeah...no...kinda.
SFC is based on the old tabletop SFB which is in turn from the 1970's and only based on TOS and TAS.
And in the first episode featuring the Klingons, "Errand of Mercy", Kirk says "Those are Klingon Phasers".
That's where the idea that pretty much everyone used phasers comes from.
An interesting later definition from SFB regerding ship phasers is this:
a phaser is a weapon that works on some kind of high-tech principle and has the same peoperties as a Starfleet Phaser of a certain type (Phaser 1 for example).
An alien race in SFB called the Anromedans employs phasers 1 and 2.
Their Phasers 1 and 2 are working on physical principles different from each other.
So not only can the principles differ between each race but within the race itself.
It's also worth notin that unlike SFC, where all phasers except the Hydran Gatlins looked (and sounded) the same, the artwork for Star Fleet Battles makes it clear that each weapon has "phasers" of a differnt colour and probably operating based on a differnt principle.

So while only the heavy weapons the Klingons use are actually referred to as "disruptor" in SFC, from a modern non 1960's/1970's perspective their ship weapons arr probably also some kind of disruptor. Just like we today refer to Klignon weapons from TOS as disruptors even though Kirk in TOS called them "phasers".

drumcd74656

misterde3 wrote: »

Yeah...no...kinda.
SFC is based on the old tabletop SFB which is in turn from the 1970's and only based on TOS and TAS.
And in the first episode featuring the Klingons, "Errand of Mercy", Kirk says "Those are Klingon Phasers".
That's where the idea that pretty much everyone used phasers comes from.
An interesting later definition from SFB regerding ship phasers is this:
a phaser is a weapon that works on some kind of high-tech principle and has the same peoperties as a Starfleet Phaser of a certain type (Phaser 1 for example).
An alien race in SFB called the Anromedans employs phasers 1 and 2.
Their Phasers 1 and 2 are working on physical principles different from each other.
So not only can the principles differ between each race but within the race itself.
It's also worth notin that unlike SFC, where all phasers except the Hydran Gatlins looked (and sounded) the same, the artwork for Star Fleet Battles makes it clear that each weapon has "phasers" of a differnt colour and probably operating based on a differnt principle.

So while only the heavy weapons the Klingons use are actually referred to as "disruptor" in SFC, from a modern non 1960's/1970's perspective their ship weapons arr probably also some kind of disruptor. Just like we today refer to Klignon weapons from TOS as disruptors even though Kirk in TOS called them "phasers".

I remember reading long, LONG ago about the design of the ships in SFB that they were looking at fan-made blueprints for a D7 (they only had fan-based stuff back in the 70's-80's) and they noted that the D7 plans had phasers all over the ship as well as two disruptors on the nacelles. To reconcile why we never saw phasers on-screen but we did see disruptors Amarillo Design Bureau came up with the idea that all the phaser banks on the D7 were low-power phaser-1's that were good for point-defense. That lead to the next logical question: why would they need so many point defense weapons? Their answer was because the Klingons were at war with the Kizinti who used massive numbers of drones (guided missiles).

Anyhow, that snowballed into their interpretation of the special "heavy" weapons being distinct per faction and everyone having a version of phaser, but graded by strength from 1 to 4. Feddies had photon torpedoes and Klingons had disruptors. Romulans and Gorn used plasma torpedoes and the Kizin used missiles. That's not even considering the other *crazy* stuff they thought of for the other factions (Tholian, Lyran, ISC, Andromedans, etc.).

Bear in mind too that all this is from memory and I couldn't even hope to quote any source. Maybe it was in the forward of the Commander's or Captain's edition rulebook? I dont know. So, anyhow TIFWIW.
I actually owned a copy of those same old D7 blueprints that they were using too, by the way. Sigh. Those were the days.

misterde3

drumcd74656 wrote: »

I remember reading long, LONG ago about the design of the ships in SFB that they were looking at fan-made blueprints for a D7 (they only had fan-based stuff back in the 70's-80's) and they noted that the D7 plans had phasers all over the ship as well as two disruptors on the nacelles. To reconcile why we never saw phasers on-screen but we did see disruptors Amarillo Design Bureau came up with the idea that all the phaser banks on the D7 were low-power phaser-1's that were good for point-defense. That lead to the next logical question: why would they need so many point defense weapons? Their answer was because the Klingons were at war with the Kizinti who used massive numbers of drones (guided missiles).

Anyhow, that snowballed into their interpretation of the special "heavy" weapons being distinct per faction and everyone having a version of phaser, but graded by strength from 1 to 4. Feddies had photon torpedoes and Klingons had disruptors. Romulans and Gorn used plasma torpedoes and the Kizin used missiles. That's not even considering the other *crazy* stuff they thought of for the other factions (Tholian, Lyran, ISC, Andromedans, etc.).

Bear in mind too that all this is from memory and I couldn't even hope to quote any source. Maybe it was in the forward of the Commander's or Captain's edition rulebook? I dont know. So, anyhow TIFWIW.
I actually owned a copy of those same old D7 blueprints that they were using too, by the way. Sigh. Those were the days.

I remember reading a few similar things in an anchient FAQ too.
The only main difference is that as I recall the reason the people at...I think back then it was still TFG and not ADB (yay more acronyms! ) was that the fan-design for the D7 had that many rear-mounted phasers. And given the aggressive nature of the Klingons they wondered...why so many aft weapons? And the conclusion was pretty much what you already mentioned: defense afainst Kzinti drones. So as a result they gave the Klingon ships a larger number of weaker Phaser-2s while the Federation ships got the more powerful Phaser-1s on all ships.

HMM something else I just recalled was that even during TNG there were instances where Klingon and Romulan weapons were referred to as phasers, like "Contagion", the episode with Iconia.
So it seems it took till the 80's until it was properly established that those two powers don't use phasers.