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Engineer's role in PvP
jenkal
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Today I played a pvp with some experienced PvPers (I'm not experienced at all but I drag on, usually don't die more than 3 times, but I'm still the worst player in my team), and I was amazed at how well a science officer could use alternative skills to kill me (the other players just stayed away from him). I mean I know that tactical officers are good PvPers, but I've always thought that us engineers, and the science officers had a secondary role in PvP and mostly tanked and healed. This guy had an avenger with feedback pulse III and the full Vesta set. He literally obliterated me. Now I'm sure I was noobing out trying to hit him when he could use feedback pulse, but my main question is: if a science officer can have a primary role in dps with his Boff skills, how can an engineer achieve a primary role as well with engineering Boff skills? What are the best pvp engineering powers I can get?
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That being said, there's nothing stopping you from running a science ship and using offensive science abilities like TBR plus the doff that makes it pull instead of push, Gravity Well, etc. Also, I think Drunk had a pretty nasty cruiser out there with Eject Warp Plasma 3 that did a good amount of damage per tick on anyone unlucky enough to get caught in it.
You could consider running something with a Commander Engineer and Lt. Commander science to use Tractor Beam Repulsors 2 and Eject Warp Plasma 3, but you'll have to time it inbetween someones Polarize Hull, Attack Pattern Omega, and the other soft counters to pull and immunities to movement debuffs. This is where a science captains subnuke would do more for you.
Edit: Also, someone being a tactical captain doesn't automaticly mean they're good at PvP. A Tactical Captain will crumble under focus fire if there isn't an engineer or science captain backing him up with heals. Teamwork is OP.
Wait, wut?
I dont believe any of the 3 classes should be considered good just in a support role. Its all about how you spec, how you fly etc etc.
D,
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Please keep the QQ to a minimum.
>>>PUNISH THE FEDs<<<
>>>Positive Feedback from a PvE HERO<<<
Use Transfer Shield Strength, Hazard Emitters, Polarize hull, all while using Aux batteries to make sure all those Aux dependant heals are strong ones.
You are right... It doesn't make any sense... I'm sure he had feedback pulse III, because that's what my combat log told me, yet I distinctly remember him having an Avenger, that's the main reason I was targetting him, because we had the same ship and I thought I could handle him... But as you say, feedback pulse III can't be equipped on an Avenger... WHAT THE HELL?
captain type makes or breaks almost every build. the face role ease at which you can complete pve with any ship, captain and build may have you confused
Anyway to answer the question: I use my engineer escorts in PVP arena pretty often. You just have to learn to take advantage of your strengths, most important that you can fly around with 125 in all four subsystems--power buffs weapon damage, shield capacity, thruster speed with a Hyper Impulse engine for best possible defense rating, and AUX power for the two Nukara traits. Nadeon Inversion will let you hit BO twice with no power drain, if you can time it. Also you get back-to-back Miracle Worker and an Rotate Shield Frequency to tank it up. Basically you can be really hard to kill and hit like a ton of bricks at the same time, but you dont have any spike except a lucky BO. Once you are comfortable, you can do things like tank an alpha, run the guy down, and kill him while his tactical stack is on cooldown.
I am also spec'd pretty heavily into Flow Caps, with the Tractor Beam DOFF and a wing of Delta Flyers on my JHEC, which is a good combination for stripping shield health and subsystem power to get at their hull sooner. Dont have spike so it helps.
If he had the full vesta set as you said before he was on a vesta. That ship with the right parts and pain can be easily confused for an avenger.
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
What's your ingame name? You'll have to teach me a couple of things if you don't mind.
People see the massive hits posted by players... they know that some tac just decloaked and spiked them to death. That's all well and good but what wins actual pvp matches are well played science.
Science is the only class that can honestly make any ship and play style work. Having said that Engi and Tac are both superior in there respective areas. Tacs still have the highest spike dmg potential... engi still has the highest spike healing potential.
So the role of engi... to be honest its super spike healer. Anyone that says otherwise is fooling themselves. When it comes to PvE none of it maters because the NPCS neither need to be spiked debuffed all that much nor will you find yourself needing to catch 100k in spike dmg.
PvP... Tacs should be spiking... Engi should be spike healing...
Science is the class that has flux. You can play CC science and support the heck out of the team dmg by providing a ton of pressure and confusion. On the other hand you can play it as a very good HOT style healer.
Science however won't really replace a super tank engi healer... Engi can bomb tons of instant heals on a friendly (yes a science could do the same in the smae ships) thing is the engi still has self heals though their captain skills. Science also won't replace the pure spike dmg of a tac escort style ship. Yes you could again put a science toon in one, and you will do great most of the time... but in a perfect team setup... you are giving up a lot of dmg potential. (assuming someone else is playing Sci Sci on your team and supporting you with CC and Debuffs)
It's interesting to think back to TRH maybe a year or more ago, because I think this was actually their downfall. They seemed to stay focused on a pure sci-heal/tac-damage setup, and in the end it was a lot harder for them to get kills than a team that was more science oriented. Beyond nuking and scanning, they could do very little that could help set up kills for the tacs (unless you include black-ball and AMS, which is what they eventually resorted to...some could say they were even the PvP fleet that "legitimized clickies"). Now, I'm not knocking on TRH. I like those guys and wish they'd come back, but they were one of the teams that I feel failed to evolve with the times, and in the end it left them where they are today.
But hey guys, it's not all doom and gloom. You can always come back. WoT has gotta get boring after a while, and PvP will always be here despite the nay-sayers
@DevolvedOne
The worst thing you can do with an eng on a pvp team is to use a damage build on it. It won't have enough damage to get the job done, and will have too few heals to be able to support your team. Its ok for kirking while on a pug, C&H, and kerrat, but we never use eng as anything but a healer when on premades.
engineers in pvp should focus on being the primary healer, and the "flagship" of their team.
you are there to keep the other guys alive so they can do their job. this role can be very gratifying fot those with a certain mindset, yet not so much for others.
just like "you" as a person may find yourself performing better as a sci or tac....its all good...you either like making the big impact or controlling the situation. it happens, we all have different personalities...and how we apply them to the game makes a lot of difference.
have fun kill bad guys
- Judge Aaron Satie
True for Tactical; APA, FOMM, GDF, and Tac Fleet all help to really make those alpha strikes and boost overall damage.
True for Science; Sensor Scan and SNB are the king of abilities in PvP these days, with a lot of pinning down a target and making them feel the effects of sci abilities dependent on stripping their resists/immunities with SNB. Even Scattering Field is a great AoE team support ability, and Sci Fleet is great for a boost to your team's shield resists.
Not quite so true for Eng; Eng's primary "role", being the biggest tank around, doesn't really exist in PvP; there's no way to force someone to shoot at you. Plus, they've got more "duds" than the other classes (i.e. Eng Fleet, Nadion Inversion, and even EPS Power Transfer), and their two star abilities each feel lacking (Miracle doesn't give resists; RSF does nothing for your hull and doesn't balance your shields either, meaning you have to have a tac team to compensate). Eng doesn't bring anything to the able that meaningfully boosts a team-oriented role.
And that there's the rub. Yes, Engs can build a super spike team healer; however, a Sci could build the same the exact same boat and get the exact same level of team heals. (Arguably, the Sci would perform better as a pure team healer due to Scattering Field and Sci Fleet.) Engs only bring self heals; nothing innate to the Eng class boosts their ability as a team healer directly.
Being the primary healer on the team isn't really a role that the Eng does well at compared to Sci; however, it's pretty much the only role that they can perform on a team, mostly because neither Tac nor Sci will perform it much better. The only thing flying a ship with an Eng does is make that ship marginally tougher; this synergizes okay with the role of a team healer, where you can't usually expect too much outside support, but combos poorly with practically any other team role.
In short, yes Engs perform okay as team healers; that's mostly because they're outperformed by Tac and Sci in almost any other role. If you really want to fly an Eng in PvP, you're pretty much forced to fit it as the healboat on your team.
(I still fly my Eng in his Sci Oddy, and I enjoy the extra bit of tankiness it brings me when I pug and get paired with, shall we say, subpar teammates; however, in a real PvP team, there's no doubt in my mind that a Sci would be more useful.)
They won't though. The sci sure anyone in a heal boat can spike heal like mad. The issue will be when the opposing force notices the healer just blew there wad. They won't survive the rapid switch. I'm sorry I will take a MW double pump and a RSF over a scatter field any day in that situation.
What I said is true. Engi and Sci are both great healers... sci is great at everything... but on the absolute high end of the heal boat spectrum only engi can survive being switching to.
People have always complained they would like to have MW and or RSF work on team mates ... really though that is the only thing the class is any good at. Having that save button there, and the free shield resistance is what makes the engi the best healer in the game.
Sci healers... yes a half decent premade will make you pay for that mistake. Clear the healer clear the team. Sci heal boats all you have to do is make them the first rapid switch target... and when they drop the team drops and its 5 0.
Traditionally, Engis are most recognized for being team healers. While the above have said that scis can also team heal (I agree, I have a sci teamhealer too), the Sci captain powers are focused on debuffs, damage resists, or shield buffs (that being Sci Fleet + Fleet Physicist trait). They are more versatile in a team setting, as they can both teamheal and spin around and subnuc a target.
Engis focus more on self-defense and self-buffs. Miracle Worker, Rotate Shield Frequency and Nadion only work on the caster, but they each do different things to enhance themselves. RSF is pretty much a self-TSS without the global cooldown. Miracle Worker is the panic button that keeps you alive a few seconds longer, very useful when facing alpha strikers. And Nadion is like a Marion doff, but with a smaller window of use. The fourth Engi captain ability, EPS Power Transfer, is useable on teammates and effectively is a battery to all four subsystem power tanks.
While this looks attractive as a team healer (and highly recommended, since team healers need to stay alive in order to continue healing), by no means should anyone shoehorn you into JUST team healing. I've seen engis in escorts and tac cruisers, even science vessels, performing those roles very well. Perhaps not as well as a career class that fits those roles to a tee, but pretty good. With those self-survivability Engi captain powers, those captains can continue to perform as drainers, or as FAW boats, or whatever, with added survivability. and better power management than Tacs or Scis can offer with captain powers alone.
I personally recommend using an Engi as a team healer, but by no means are you forced, or should you feel forced, to pick team healing as your only viable option for PvP. Although the career class is important, the skill tree/traits/ship/build/personal experience is what makes the build.
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Honestly if your doing anything else with an engi in PvP your wasting space on the team. Really they are not good for anything else at all.
Perhaps if you have a romulan engi scort and your setup for full crit chance... you might = a badly played fed or klink tac.
Its the sad truth. Engi is never going to make an escort work in the current meta. Perhaps fun to tool around in in a pure pug.
Vs anyone half decent though a engi scort is going to be little more then a nuisance. In a science ship agian... not going to be all that effective... there is no way for them to really ramp up Partical dmg at all (tacs can... Sci can and get a +30% all ways on now with there sci trait).
The engi does everything other then super healer badly. Super heal it is the only real viable option imo. Sci is better off focusing on CC which they are super strong in now. (with degrees of healing depending on the player and build) Ideal team as I see it in this meta is anchor engi healer with 2 sci CC / Heal support setups. The sci can throw a ton of pressure dmg and control things while the engi catches spikes when needed.
Honestly best to make your engi a healer... and if that isn't your cup of tea 100% of the time. Do like most other people and make sure you have sci and tac toons ready to PvP. I fly my engi in PvP pretty rarely for that reason. I admit I don't really get off on super healing. I have a lot of toons and I think 3 or 4 engis... 2 setup for PvP healing the others I would never PvP with.
I know I sound dim on the engi... not that long ago though the engi was completely useless in PvP. However recent trait changes, and some changes in the meta... and I think engi is in a good place. I think almost every premade should have one engi anchor healer. (where as previously no one would take an engi on any team ever)
More then ever, the introduction of the solo/duo queues facilitates parallely existing meta games.
But for the sake of argument, if we only look at the "higher end" premade meta game and exclude everything else, then it is obvious that the meta game tends to become stale when one or more premades find a strategy that works for them reliably, giving them little incentive to change. With F2P, Cryptic also increased the pace of introducing new elements and features, which makes it less likely for a fixed strategy to work for a prolonged period.
Examples for stale metas:
Pre-F2P TSI with their infamous FAW comes to mind.
For months, there was no fleet able to counter Sad Pandas unique vaping approach.
When TRH perfected their Repulsor-strategy, they became untouchable for months.
These strategies were products of their time, they worked for a specific period, and eventually these strategies became unreliable.
Since you have mentioned TRH as an example,
during their prime they played against a lot of "science themed" strategies. At that time, bringing a sci-offensive team setup against TRH was doomed to fail. TRH brought more than enough heals and cleaning abilities to get rid of any sci debuffs and to tank most sorts of spike damage; they waited for the right opportunity to isolate a target with a TBR and teared the opponent apart one by one. Repeat 15 time, then gg in zone chat. TBR was the key ability, and it is a sci one.
All that TRH needed was ONE single copy of TBR, later another single PSW or SS was added. Why bring other sci debuffs when that was all you need? Most other premades back then were set up strangely unfocused, one Grav Well there one Viral here, which didn't help them score kills at all, on the contrary it made them just more squishy. Nowadays, the sheer amount of sci-ish clickables consoles combined with now differently balanced Science Bridge Officer Powers, it's a completly different meta. Back then, one couldn't cast a Subspace Rupture to stop a TBR push at its track or activate the Fluidic Phase thingie to safely return to the healer.
There are two main reasons why successfull fleets after a time stop being successfull:
1. Loosing key players, because they get bored or dislike the direction PvP is going, they move on to other games or even stop playing video games, or they simply join another fleet.
2. Unwillingness or inability to adapt to new circumstances, changes to the game balance and introduction of new elements like fleet gear, reputation etc.
TSI never really recovered back to full strength after they lost certain key players like Era.
There is no chance in hell that Pandas would've been able to compensate the absence of MT, Naz, Bieber, Jorf.
TRH lost people to other games or fleets like Tick0, Jam0, Shimmerless, Yoda, Keysee, Draco, I left the fleet, Strike, Pax became inactive and so did others. I am talking about the loss of 2 entire "A-Team" premade human resources, of course such a drain of experience will ultimately have consequences. It diminishes the ability to make proven strategies work, and it dimishes the ability to develop new ones.
Regarding clickies:
If we overlook the subspace jumper, then TRH was certainly not the first PvP fleet resorting to clickable consoles and they weren't the last.
TSI, Pandas, Nova Core, Inner Circle, Hobos, they all resorted to clickables eariler than TRH did.
Trinity loading up his toons with AMS and every other P2W he could get his hands on, Devoras backstepping on his Wells as if there was no tomorrow, TSI tacs fielding Isometrics and whatnot (even the Grappler I kid you not
Nova Core with their infamous AMS builds.
TRIBBLE. premades with each player equipping 2-5 clickables.
Virtually all Pandas switching to Wells with backstep console during a time where TRH still was playing with Rear Admiral Reconnaissance Science Vessels (later switched to Orb Weaver), and MT boosting his spike damage with Isometrics etc.
And later, TRH joined the "clicky" party, but they were not the fleet "legitimizing" such stuff. It was maybe more eye-catching to some because since TRH's inception they tried to hold up the "clean-play" flag and then did a very sudden reversal at a certain point.
Since you mentioned Black-Hole and AMS, those are peception debuffs that boost certain "science themed" strategies to become even stronger; removing both these consoles from the equation and the viability of certain strategies begin to shift a little.