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Klingons, about your "honor"
kirksplat
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http://whatculture.com/tv/star-trek-10-biggest-examples-of-klingons-being-dishonourable.php
Found this interesting article today. Klingons, respond.
Found this interesting article today. Klingons, respond.
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Post edited by kirksplat on
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To publically challenge the honor of a Klingon, even a dishonorable one, is to invite pain, grief and death.
My experience is that the term Klingon Honor is somewhat of a misnomer. Ones value of honor may change with any given development during the course of a Klingons life. What is considered an honorable trait or action today may be seen as less than so tomorrow. Even Klingons knew this and have come to expect a somewhat flexible and ever-evolving sense of the word.
A case in point could be given when considering that Gowron defended the Federation and brought peace between they and the Klingon Empire. This was seen as a significantly honorable act. Yet it was no less honorable when Gowron later renounced that treaty and ended the peace. In the end he was challenged and killed by Worf on behalf of Martok in 2375. Despite his dishonorable actions Gowron was still acknowledged as a Klingon Warrior.
It is highly political and extremely complicated, the Klingon Honor system. As such there is no single right or wrong, honorable or dishonorable act which crosses some imaginary line as it shifts as often as sand on a beach.
What can not be contested, however, is the act or sense of honor itself. To challenge a Klingons sense of honor will result in that Klingons mandatory response of defending that honor, for themselves and their house generations back. To make a sweeping demand that a Klingon has acted dishonorably is to, in essence, issue a challenge to invoke a response. An outsider may consider certain acts by Klingons, even against members of their own house, as dishonorable but in truth were only seeing a glimpse of a much larger, much more complex hierarchy.
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This^^^^^^
Klingon honor is just a convenient cultural excuse to kill the bad apples. It's likely a relic of early Klingon culture; given the likely tribal origin of Klingons, and the vicious environment of Qo'noS, treachery and backstabbing have a quick, extrajudicial solution for bad apples for a very good reason: In a tribal society in a vicious, storm-swept environment, anyone who kills rivals from the shadows instead of at least challenging them to their face is not only probably weak, but also a serious danger to the survival of the tribe/clan.
It actually makes a lot of sociobiological sense. And it gives the Klingons a sort of faux-Norse feel. Plus, it let us have "Reunion", where Worf finally gets around to killing that smug TRIBBLE Duras.
It will explain the basis of Klingon honor as per the philosophy of Kahless.
Otherwise this article and any other such look at klingon honor is flawed as the perspective is from an area of personal understanding with no basis to judge.
Frankly the Federation is as flawed with its flexible ethics as flawed as Vulcan logic with its loop holds.
R.I.P
And how is any Klingon supposed to answer this considering Klingons do not exist?
Honor is a concept individual to ones own code of conduct based on the social code, thus not entirely the same
Honor is a social code (for example, akin to following the ten commandments, for example) thus is fluid as needed ("Yeah... thou shalt not kill..well, we say its fine as its a war so pick up that gun...)
Honor is a byproduct of religion (see above) - thus reinforces the social strand of honor
If individual honor goes against social honor, then the social honor overrides it if the individual is part of said social circle due to its connection to religion and its cause and effect (ie, be dishonourable, go to Grethor, be honorable - go to stovakor)
In effect. there is two strains of honor in the Klingon mindset, intertwined with the religious basis thus like reality, where a devout person can pick up a weapon despite the religious side saying they should not and shoot to kill another and believe they are doing 'right', outside their social group they are viewed 'wrong' yet within they have done a 'good' act
This is the same as 'Honor' to a Klingon - if it feels dishonourable, the elders, the controllers of religion, can say it is honourable - thus allowing atrocities such as decimating a colony of farmers with no weapons
However, if the elders said it was dishonourable, it would be dishonourable - even if the individual thought otherwise
Taking it futher, lets say they were the victors of a battle and the enemy has surrendered/been captured:
In one case, it would be honourable to kill them, rather than subject them to slavery
In another, it would be honourable to take them as trophies of victory
In another, it would be honourable to release them, forever marred by their defeat and in a blood debt
All three cases would, or could be considered honourable depending on the situation. It is this I like about honor in the Klingon sense - it is not cut and dried; it is a context fluid medium that equates to our own humanity
Something the federation seems to have lost, I feel
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Don't forget that the federation of this game is nothing like the federation of the franchise lol. I could be wrong if you count shooting at everything you see as exploration though.
Its the old world Earth way of exploring. Discover, control, eradicate, and pillage.
R.I.P
Otherwise, Klingons have the same problems everyone else has. In fact, they have some of the same problems they blame Starfleet for having. The next time you're levellinga Klingon, play "Frozen" and then ask the KI guy if J'mpok will want to help the Remans.
They're not willing to attack an enemy empire with nothing to gain based on a few rumors of ancient monsters controlling everything. There's no proof of their claims, even if there is some suspicious stuff, they need solid evidence of some major stuff before committing to taking on the Romulan Empire, ect.
In other words, exactly what the Federation said about the Klingons and Undine. This will never be acknowledged.
Christopher Columbus would approve.:rolleyes:
Why SHOULD the Klingon Empire have helped Obisek's resistance? There literally was nothing to gain for the Empire.
I know this eventually changed.
But the Empire was at war with the Federation already and was the leader in the Alpha & Beta Quadrants in dealing with the Undine. Because nobody else, including their former ally, was doing much about it. Even AFTER proof of infiltration came about. So what would have backing a bunch of rebels hiding in a wreck do for the Empire?
Also... the Empire was right about the Undine and the Federation admitted they were dumbasses. If the Federation backed their ally long ago, the Federation-Klingon War would never have happened. The Federation would have a say back then on how to conduct business in rooting out the Undine if they acted as an ally. Since this wasn't so, it was up to the Klingon Empire to root out the Undine in the way they were best at. War.
So yeah
Klingons, at least, are forthcoming with their actions. If they say they are going to kill you, they intend to kill you. If they say they intend to let you live, they intend to kill you in your sleep. With them you always have a fighting chance because you know never to trust them fully. With Starfleet, and Humans in particular, they wear you down until the moment you fully lower your defences, then they strike from behind.
^^^^^This.
Duras being the exception, of course.
But every other Klingon on the show had the decency to hit their enemies in the face, like a man.
Christopher Columbus was a ****.
^^^ This + 1 million. He was a worthless greedy racist slave-trading r*pist scumbag. And a greedy son of a jackal on top of that.
He was an entrepreneur and an explorer. He sought fame and fortune by discovering what others thought did not exist. Granted, he THOUGHT he was sailing to India at the time still, he was, for his time, a hero of the people and to his King.
That being said, he was also a genocidal maniac who firmly believed that once he discovered a new place he was obliged to slaughter any native inhabitants to make way for the Europeans, just as the Spanish did to the Mayans and Incans, and Anglo-Saxxons did to most of Europe itself.
In short, he was a product of his environment and limited intelligence, unable to see past his own glory through the blood and tears he caused.
But we get a paid holiday for him so that makes it even in the end, no?
Queen, actually. Isabella I of Spain, if I remember rightly.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Who also was a truly filthy human being.
Everybody romanticizes Columbus, but IRL he was like Ferengi with the systematic abuse of other cultures of the Dominion with the casual cruelty of the Breen.
Really not in any way a good person.
The Empire has either let you live because you impressed them as a species, you are intended for conquer, or you are considered worthless and are to be left to die of your own design.
If they intended to kill you it will be to your face or after a formal.declaration of war.
R.I.P
I know, I'm just a stickler for historic accuracy. :P
Onto the subject matter.
From my observations, while minor details of Klingon honour can be subjective depending on the individual or house, the generally accepted view is that;
1) Subterfuge and espionage is dishonourable.
2) The killing of innocents (read as non-combatants) is dishonourable.
3) Insulting a Klingon's honour demands an immediate response from the insulted Klingon, though this can vary in severity from a retort, to a headbutt, to a fight to the death.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I agree with all of this.
And TBH, I'm a stickler, too. :cool: