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Can the T5 T'Varo wear the TOS skin?
guriphu
Member Posts: 494 Arc User
Anyone with the ship who can answer? Thanks 
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I don't believe that's correct, because there is a T5 KDF ship which can be skinned as a D7.
So, we should be able to skin a T5 T'varo as a T'liss (and a T5 Fed ship as a T5 Connie).
CBS needs to remember the canonicity of holoemitters, which can allow a ship to have a different appearance. With this concept, there's no justification for denying a TOS appearance to a more modern and T5 vessel.
The D7 and K't'inga classes are virtually identical. From a distance there would be no way to tell them apart.
I think they're more concerned with immersion than anything else. Though why they would allow playable Undine, Tholian, and Tal Shiar ships is a mystery.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan_Bird-of-Prey_(22nd_century)
So CBS logic on this is flawed.
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The age of the T'varo is debatable, due to the ENT series involving so many shenanigans from the Temporal Cold War. The T'varo warbirds in ENT should not have been able to cloak and use an FTL drive simultaneously (impulse can theoretically attain FTL speeds, but iirc, the T'varo that was chasing the NX-01 out of the cloaked minefield was stated to have done something different -- I don't remember the exact dialogue, and I don't yet have ENT on DVD to check), and they were made of a material not otherwise seen until the TNG era. Point being, there are continuity issues which make the whole "chicken or the egg" question fall apart, and the only way that I can see to make this make even a twisted kind of sense is by appealing to the TCW. Some of us believe that the T'varo warbirds in ENT were not native to the era.
Regardless, though, there are so many logical objections based on canon (like my holoemitter bit) to CBS' refusal that someone really needs to revisit he question with these logical objections which STO players have pointed out and yell something like "The players want it and will pay for it! There's PROFIT to be had!!!"
The K't'inga/D7 and the B'rel were both from the 23rd Century, yet both ships were used in Deep Space 9 during the Dominion War. Saying that the D7 shouldn't have been used it exactly the same as saying the B'rel shouldn't have, its just the B'rel got more screen time.
So your point it invalid.
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The K'Tinga is just a beefed up version of the D7, apart from the colour the hulls look virtually identical
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
yup, and it's still a great ship
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You're missing the point. The K't'inga is not the D7.
Much like the t'varo is not the t'liss. Therefore, if they keep the D7 as an option for the k'tinga, they should allow for the t'liss as an option for the t'varo.
(PS, I'm agreeing with you, not arguing. I just wanted to finish off your thought.
And what of the D'kyr and Andorian escorts? Or the Somraw raptor? All of which are ENT era ships, and yet are available as T5 ships. :rolleyes:
What of them? Allow me to direct your attention to the second paragraph of the post you quoted, and the word with which it begins.
In the context of this discussion, it doesn't really matter when the T'varo is from; that was an aside, intentionally rendered moot by the word "Regardless" which began that second paragraph. If it is from the 22nd century, like the D'kyr and others available as T5 ships, that and the other ships from that era being available as T5 make all the Herp Derp objections about how "outdated" or "obsolete" the Connie (and of course, the T'liss) supposedly is in 2409/2410 even more ridiculous. In fact, as others have pointed out, and to which you have also referred, the availability of ships even older than the T'liss (T'varo included or not) lays bare, I believe, the genuine objection of the Herp Derp crowd, which is likely due to the same TNG-to-VOY-era bias which motivates some people in the Romulan Gameplay forum to whine that the New Romulan Republic is not made up of "real" Romulans because they don't act like grownup victims of child abuse who won't let go of the baggage from the past long enough to stop perpetuating the cycle in the way so many TNG-VOY-era Romulans did, and don't seem to get the idea that we 40+ year old STO players grew up with an entirely different reality and many of us view the TNG-VOY-era take on the Romulans as unwarranted and unnecessary perversion of what the Romulans were in the original presentation (an exaggeration, although not by much -- and a generalization, because there were exceptions, but it's intended to be a general, rather than a universal, description).
And I apologize for what I'm about to do (going so far afield of the topic), but really getting more than tired of the "Romulans 'should' have bad haircuts and act like fascist bully boys in hideously designed clothes or they're not 'real' Romulans, because TNG" shtick.
Oh, I was so happy to see the Romulans make their first appearance in TNG! I thought "Yeah! This will save it from becoming canceled and we'll see more of what made the Romulans in TOS the most interesting species in the entire series!" But I was sadly disappointed to see what TNG did with the Romulans. Instead of being true to the original, these were depicted as persons whom the likes of Keras and Di'on Charvon would have regarded as criminally insane and in need of being locked up for their own protection and that of society (if not simply euthanized).
I honestly do not understand how anyone could prefer TNG to TOS, unless it were due to the same sort of mentality that made the Star Wars trilogy a great light show and little else. Sure, the special effects were more up-to-date, but flash in the pan doesn't make a nutritious meal. The first two seasons of TNG were largely dreck. Had I not been a Trekker already, I wouldn't have become one due to TNG. Yes, it got better, but becoming better than the first two seasons was really quite a low hurdle to leap. Even "The Empath" is less grating than most of the first two seasons of TNG, and "The Empath" is the only TOS episode that makes me truly cringe (well-written, interesting concept, which has since been done to death, but so ... unappealing).
There were a few notable exceptions story-wise in the first two seasons of TNG, but the key word is "few," and the strained character interactions generally make even those few of rather dubious watchability. The fact that the stories are so good is what makes them even tolerable, in spite of the beardless Riker (*cringe*) and the strained efforts to create camaraderie out of thin air and even some ... less than stellar acting -- there, I said it! While some of those actors were first-rate, even they (or at least most of them, Patrick Stewart being the biggest exception, because he was doing it right, from the beginning, with what he had to work with from the writers and producers) didn't seem to be giving it their best until they stopped trying to wear the characters like a costume and starting instead trying to be in-character). TNG tried too hard to capture the camaraderie of the crew of TOS, and the result was so painful to watch as to make even well-written stories very nearly devoid any redeeming value. I mean, seriously. Kate Mulgrew is not an amateur, but it wasn't the dynamic of "EMOTIONAL and simple country doctor as foil to erudite, professional, RATIONAL half-alien" that made TOS and its characters so beloved, and trying to force the new show to almost be TOS 2.0 was part of the problem with those first two seasons. TOS cannot be duplicated so easily. Those actors had worked together for years on numerous projects and they knew one another. Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley, and Doohan can be seen in countless episodes of this or that Western-themed series, and had worked with each other. Even Michael Ansara worked with them on those Westerns (there's a rather telling episode of The Virginian in which Nimoy and Ansara play brothers). They didn't have to act like friends; they were friends. TNG better than TOS? It's an almost laughable claim.
Confounded whippersssshhhhappers! Sssshhhhow sssshhhome ressshhhpect for your eldersszhsh!
Mind you, I do believe that the original presentation of something is not inherently or always the best. Two cases in point: "All Along the Watch Tower" as done by Hendrix was vastly superior to Dylan's version (and Dylan wrote the thing, and I'm not saying this because of Dylan's vocal stylings, which I quite like), and "A Hazy Shade of Winter" as done by The Bangles trumps the original version by Simon and Garfunkel just as easily (and there's no doubt that Simon and Garfunkel were amazing). But TNG Romulans should have been an homage to TOS Romulans, and not "the lunatics have taken over the asylum."
Certainly there are newer ships which are much nicer in appearance (from a purely aesthetic perspective and without taking into consideration any of the devotion of fans), are more aerodynamically designed, have more comfortable interiors, etc, but dangit! I want to have a T'liss and a D7 and a Connie at T5 -- if not those classes exactly, at least their skins -- and the only one of the three which I can have at T5 is the D7 (skin). And I'm a paying customer. It's not an unreasonable request, and claiming obsolescence of design or material or technology is nothing but a load of tosh, for multiple reasons which have been hashed and rehashed in threads at this site since before I started playing STO (although I do believe I was the first to point to the holoemitter as evidence for why the objections are inconsistent with what the Trek universe would consider "reality" -- or at least I never saw anyone else use that argument for T5 versions of TOS-era vessels in 2409/2410 before I did so in one of those threads, and haven't seen anyone else do it since).
At least they could give us holoemitters, but I'm not fond of the short lifespan of them personally.
Which is funny because the 100 years older ENT ships do not seem to be to old^^
And given the fact Cryptic turned the Jem'hadar bug ship into a lol uber ship don't expect balance with ship classes.
[/SIGPIC]
People always seem to ignore that Starfleet isn't very nostalgic and is always moving onto bigger and better things. Where as most other races like to reuse or upgrade tech they like.
Klingons are hard to gauge since all we ever saw pre tng was the BoP and D7/K't'inga, Romulans are hard because well ENT complicated things. We know the Romulans didn't use any of the ships they got from their former alliance with the Klingons. They might have very well reverse engineered them...
While Enterprise did it's part not to look to advanced with 30+ years of effects and technological advancements, the T'varos in ENT didn't...
I did like Enterprise but damn at times could it get loopy, confusing, and just completely ignored things at times...
T'Liss big no... but T'Varo and D'Kyr no problem.
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This may be true, but impulse drives don't warp space so the ship would suffer from Time Dilation as it approached the speed of light.
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It's not that I necessarily want Romulans to be exactly as they were in TNG, or DS9, or TOS, etc... it's that I want them to be identifiable as Romulans by how they talk, how they dress, how they think, and how they act. It think Cryptic did pretty well on the visuals... but terribly everywhere else.
I, along with many people, feel like Cryptic's Romulans aren't even identifiably members of a foreign culture, let alone identifiable as one of the most distinctive political groups in Star Trek. I would have been happy if Cryptic had given us the 1960s Roman-derived people from TOS, because I am a fan of TOS. I would have been happy if Cryptic had given us the 1980s Soviet/North Korean derived people from the 80s and 90s, because I am a fan of TNG and DS9. I would have been happy if Cryptic had created a new Romulan image that was still identifiable as Romulan, because I'm a Star Trek fan. But slapping pointy ears and forehead ridges on a bunch of stereotypical Americans* and making them say "Jolan tru" in stead of "howdy" doesn't make them Romulans.
*by which I mean the stereotype that Americans have of Americans, for clarification - the easily digested, instantly recognizable, 100% nonthreatening, non-challenging us.
You shouldn't be surprised that Star Trek fans whose primary image of Romulans came from DS9 and TNG suggest that they ought to be like they were in DS9 and TNG.
It doesn't help that the LoR storyline made even less sense than the rest of the STO storyline. "Oh no, we need to find a new planet to live on."
"How about that perfectly habitable planet from the first episode, or that other planet from the episode with the Remans?"
"**** that planet, we need one with deadly radiation, hostile fauna everywhere, an ancient doomsday device built into its core, and several hostile alien empires trying to conquer it. Also, we should let every military in the quadrant parade around the place unsupervised and heavily armed."
So we don't just get cast as stereotypical Americans, we're cast as whatever stereotypical Americans would be if they were mentally TRIBBLE.
I disagree with your characterization of TNG's Romulans, but given the choice, I'd rather have my character portrayed as evil than stupid.
(Not that the Federation storyline is much better. "LET'S GO TO WAR WITH EVERYBODY! Yay!")
Except for how they aren't, and are in fact the blandest and least interesting by a wide margin.
"Instantly recognizable" and "us" should be the primary aspects of any Romulan faction, good or bad.
They are, after all, Vulcans, the most instantly recognizable and identifiable race in Star Trek. You were meant to "instantly recognize" them the moment you laid eyes on them, as part of the great floating human metaphor that was the Enterprise crew. That was what made them effective villain, not OOOH BIG SCARY BIRD SHIPS.
But as far as a Korea metaphor, though, you might be on to something. If there's any problem with how Romulans are portrayed in STO, it's that we don't get a sense of why one of the most powerful men in Romulan society is a Reunificationist. It should be a thread woven throughout the entire Romulan arc, but I'm not even sure people are aware of it, beyond "lol i don't wanna have sex once every seven years glory to the empire lets kick puppies and smirk ineffectually on the enterprise viewscreen".
The fact that nobody in the entire playerbase has seen fit to start a thread debating the pros and cons of D'Tan's reunificationist position shows the primary flaw in how the Republic is being presented. Reunification, as something to either support or oppose, should be a driving force behind the story, not just a background detail. We should be seeing why the Reunificationists are so powerful, even if we don't necessarily have to agree with them.
It also shows that TNG Romulans are so far from the original concept that they should have been called something besides "Romulans" and just been a random new alien race like the Cardassians were.
Yet they still won't let us use the actual TOS hull. :P
Oddly enough though, the KDF get to use the TOS D7 battlecruiser hull on the K'tinga Retrofit and Fleet K'tinga... so go figure.
To be fair, the subject of Reunification has been discussed in this forum, and I believe there was a thread devoted specifically to the subject. I do remember making a few posts about it myself, one of which was in the thread I believe was about the idea (but it may have been about D'Tan specifically and only touched upon Reunification in the context of discussing D'Tan). More recently, in my "Ahr'fvahir mnean?" thread in this forum, I posted a link to a communique from my main toon (Gessatra ir'Virinat t'Prell, hru'Phi'Tlarum, galae'Enriov s'Tal'Diann) to D'Tan addressing the matter. Certainly the subject has not been ignored, although many of those opposing the idea do so based largely on a misunderstanding of Cthia (the teachings of Surak), believing the false orthodoxy invented by the establishment on Vulcan to have been what Surak actually taught, and it was not. The Syrranite Reform which began in Terrhain year 2154 has not yet been completed, else we would not be faced with arrogant racists like T'Nae who ignore Surak's teaching of Kol-Ut-Shan (IDIC) and embrace bias (not a good thing for the academic discipline of Logic, which is part of, and only part of Cthia).
I agree with that completely. The most common depiction of Romulans in TNG and the later series was extremely inconsistent with the way the Romulans were originally presented, and it is that which primarily actuates my disdain for those who prefer the later portrayals over the original portrayals.
Very briefly, yeah. Honestly, I want more about Reunification in the game . . . what it would mean, exactly, and why it is/is not a good idea.
I think Sugihara blathers more actual text about Reunification than D'Tan ever gets. I would like to hear his proposal, in-game, and would like to hear the upsides and downsides from others, and maybe stop some kind of plot based around it.
To me, that's a lot more interesting than trying to get into being a member of the second-best Space TRIBBLE race in this quadrant of the galaxy (sorry, Gul Dukat takes the gold medal for Space TRIBBLE).
And yes, of course, I want the bird decal. Why anyone wouldn't want the bird decal as an option is just beyond me.
Actually the Klingon ship in that voyager episode (I think it was prophecy) clearly was a k'tinga and was clearly identified as d7.
Can't remember any canonical mentioning of the description "k'tinga" in the first place. So offscreen material aside to me it looks a lot like them beeing the same class just refitted like the constitution.
Also, taken canon exactly, a k'tinga appeared in enterprise. (They designed a new-old-ship version but the cgi model was not ready so they had to go with the k'tinga in that terrible episode where trip became pregnant).
So canon taken exactly the k'tinga is much older then assumed and it predates the d7 if we take them as different classes.
There is no hint of the romulans beeing involved in the temporal Cold War and no hint on any kind of time travel involved in that episode.
No matter if it breaks previously established canon, it's an ent era ship.
So was the Miranda. I still think all ships should be useful in end game...
Interestingly enough, the scrapped design for the ENT battlecruiser actually made it into STO as the Koro't'inga