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Voth Vs Borg
tilarta
Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
After seeing the first appearance of the Voth, I wondered if they were more technologically advanced then the Borg.
When their cityship captures Voyager, they disable the shields in seconds, takes most of the primary systems offline shortly afterwards and then they transport the the entire ship into the cityship!
When Paris attempts to manually activate Voyager's weapons, all the Voth captain does is enter smug mode as the weapons are disabled again.
Now contrast this with what the Borg do when they attempt to capture Voyager.
They have to bring down Voyager's shields with weapons fire and tractor the ship inside.
And they have no means to disable any of Voyager's systems remotely.
In essence, the Borg have to use a brute force approach while the Voth use a highly advanced technological solution instead.
Which makes me wonder, are the Voth technologically superior to the Borg because they do things that the Borg cannot?
And if the Borg had managed to assimilate Voth, they would have integrated these technologies into their vessels.
Since they have not, I assume the Borg have never managed to capture any Voth or defeat their vessels in order to capture prisoners.
Does this mean that the Voth are capable of fighting and defeating the Borg?
When their cityship captures Voyager, they disable the shields in seconds, takes most of the primary systems offline shortly afterwards and then they transport the the entire ship into the cityship!
When Paris attempts to manually activate Voyager's weapons, all the Voth captain does is enter smug mode as the weapons are disabled again.
Now contrast this with what the Borg do when they attempt to capture Voyager.
They have to bring down Voyager's shields with weapons fire and tractor the ship inside.
And they have no means to disable any of Voyager's systems remotely.
In essence, the Borg have to use a brute force approach while the Voth use a highly advanced technological solution instead.
Which makes me wonder, are the Voth technologically superior to the Borg because they do things that the Borg cannot?
And if the Borg had managed to assimilate Voth, they would have integrated these technologies into their vessels.
Since they have not, I assume the Borg have never managed to capture any Voth or defeat their vessels in order to capture prisoners.
Does this mean that the Voth are capable of fighting and defeating the Borg?
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
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Although, maybe the Borg caught one of those little science shuttles. Something happened right before the beginning of the game that gave the borg a big boost, both in capability and confidence. I mean, they are simultaneously invading the Alpha/Beta quadrants, fluidic space, and Voth territory. The fact that they were able to get that much of a foothold in fluidic space, when we've seen how easily the Undine deal with them, shows they've got a lot of extra muscle behind them. And then there's the super-assimilating nanoprobes, which can assimilate an entire planet from a single sample in a matter of days at most (and faster if there's an actual invasion force).
However, as a result of their culture and doctrine -- and pacifist nature, they simply choose not to wipe the Borg out.
It isn't that ludicrous of an idea. Picard did the same thing in TNG. The Voth may similarly decide that the Borg are a species and thus not worthy of genocide.
Given the Voth's interest in using Omega Particles to prevent warp travel into their territory, I imagined they want to simply isolate themselves from the rest of the galaxy once and for all. They have no interest in gaining new territory, no interest in fighting wars or wiping out the Borg.
They want a permanent solution to constant attacks by the Borg. So they detonate omega particles in a nice little row around their borders to create a 'warp fence'.
In this instance, I'd imagine them to think of the Borg as wild animals who simply do not know any better. So they want to create a wall around their section of space to deter said attacks.
This lines up with their focus on defending themselves and their culture and less with interfering in others' affairs.
You know, when Nevil Longtop first is mentioning that, it sounds like they are trying to fence IN the Borg, to limit their expansion. (Since Voth space isn't far from the edges of Borg space in Voyager time - "Distant Origins" is only two episodes before "Scorpion" - it makes sense that they would eventually meet.) Too bad what he later says - something about limiting exploration, or cutting themselves off from the galaxy, or whatever - contradicts this. The first way is a lot smarter, and cooler.
Which makes the way the Voth are portrayed in STO even more underwhelming.
If it worked. It's possible the Borg could simply find a way through the destroyed portions of subspace that make warp travel impossible. Since the Voth have never performed this kind of undertaking before, I assumed that the Borg could similarly find a way to adapt to the problem of warp travel being impossible while trying to cross into Voth space.
So if they tried fencing in the Borg, it may seem like a really awesome idea -- but Borg space is presumably much much larger than Voth space. The Borg conquer and assimilate vast regions of the Delta Quadrant. The Voth would be burning the bridges of far too many warp 'routes' in the Galaxy even if they succeeded.
To fence them in would be an even bigger undertaking than trying to cut themselves off, since presumably the Voth don't conquer new territory and have no interest in such things -- the Solanae Sphere for instance is the means to an end. They want the Sphere because it's a factory for Omega Particles. They don't care about anything other than that.
Likewise when I first saw the Voth ships and genetically engineered creatures that people seem to think are dinosaurs, I knew they didn't create these things to fight us -- these were clearly made to fight the Borg. Particularly since they use Antiproton weapons.
The Borg are the only real threat they have to deal with, but even then they just consider them a nuisance, since the Borg simply won't stop trying.
As far as the Borg vs. Voth goes, it depends on technology vs. numbers. As far as we know, Voth have to use the standard way of creating soldiers while the Borg can just increase their numbers through assimilation.
20 Million years to get from Earth to the Delta Quadrant, no mention of when that trip took place.
The voth do have the advantage of of personal phased cloaks for infiltration missions at least, but the Voth military doctrine is usually defensive
Their ships have so many ways of messing up an attacker, it's crazy
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It depends on where the battle is being fought.
If it is in space, then your numbers won't really matter, since the Voth will be obliterating your ships with the Drones onboard as soon as you show up.
I'm also speculating the Voth may have been experimenting with Assimilation antibodies, as it wouldn't be a good idea for the Borg to assimilate any Voth or their ground assault dinosaurs.
Not that assimilating does any good if a V.Rex or Voth Raptor is biting your arm off!
And the Borg are not that good at increasing their numbers through Assimilation, in most cases, they have to fight their way into the terrority of enemy species to take a planet.
If they were fighting the Voth at the same time as several other species, the losses they would suffer would be too extreme.
I wonder though, what is the Collective's opinion on the Voth?
They might desire to assimilate the Voth, but surely the Borg Hivemind is pragmatic enough to realize even a losing battle should not be fought.
The Borg might think it is more practical to leave the Voth alone rather then openly antagonize them.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
It depends on where the battle is being fought.
If it is in space, then your numbers won't really matter, since the Voth will be obliterating your ships with the Drones onboard as soon as you show up.
I'm also speculating the Voth may have been experimenting with Assimilation antibodies, as it wouldn't be a good idea for the Borg to assimilate any Voth or their ground assault dinosaurs.
Not that assimilating does any good if a V.Rex or Voth Raptor is biting your arm off!
Or a Voth mech is stomping on you until you're a smear on the ground.
And the Borg are not that good at increasing their numbers through Assimilation, in most cases, they have to fight their way into the terrority of enemy species to take a planet.
If they were fighting the Voth at the same time as several other species, the losses they would suffer would be too extreme.
I wonder though, what is the Collective's opinion on the Voth?
They might desire to assimilate the Voth, but surely the Borg Hivemind is pragmatic enough to realize even a losing battle should not be fought.
The Borg might think it is more practical to leave the Voth alone rather then openly antagonize them.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Seems a bit of regression happened since VOY.
"Isolationist" strikes me as the correct descriptor for the Voth, not "pacifist". A pacifist civilization wouldn't be willing to fight three different factions at once for control of a Dyson sphere, or any other reason for that matter.
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The Borg are hampered by being utterly bollocking stupid. This is the civilization whose idea of ground tactics is a slowly advancing skirmish line of zombies, and who ignore armed away teams running around their own ships. They also have very little in the way of R&D abilities: Their chief way of gaining knowledge is by assimilating folks who already possess it.
However, they have at their disposal incredible numerical superiority and the innate ability to develop strong resistance to directed energy weapons. Brute force and attrition still works, but the Borg also have firepower advantages, and a single-minded determination that every living creature in the galaxy must either join them or die.
The Voth in turn are hampered by an oppressive, autocratic government and a population that for the most part is dogmatically adherent to frequently incorrect Doctrine, which ****s with their ability to do research as we've seen Nelen Exil complaining about in the cutscenes. And they lack the Borg's numbers and have to replenish their forces the old-fashioned way. And then there's adaptation. One of the more dangerous abilities their ships commonly possess is that lightning thing that strips shields. Presumably the Borg were exposed to it early, since Palisades seem to come in launching it, and likely adapted to it. Doctrine also hampers their ability to come up with lower-tech solutions that have proven more effective against the Borg, like eschewing energy weapons for kinetics.
Contrast the Federation (for example), which rapidly adapted tactics and technologies to the Borg and nearly had the STFC cube dead by brute force alone by the time it reached Earth.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That's where the genetically-engineered creatures (commonly referred to as 'dinosaurs' despite not being dinosaurs) come into play. Claws and teeth for biting and cutting them in half easily, and stomping on Borg drones for the larger species and creating seismic shockwaves to knock them off balance. Likely genetically engineered as to be immune to assimilation (the Borg have never really assimilated animals, the Tribble of Borg being the exception to the rule). As well as their well-known resistance to energy weapon damage.
The Voth figured out their weakness to kinetic and physical damage a long time ago and grew these monsters specifically to exploit that weakness in the Borg ranks on the ground.
The Spec Ops soldiers similarly seem to be trained in melee combat, as they'll often ninja you from stealth. Those were also evidence to me that all these fantastic war machines and soldiers weren't made for us, they were made for the Borg. On both ground and space.
As for the Voth vs. Borg, it depends on exactly how much more technologically advanced they are than the Borg. The rest of the points have been pretty much covered.
As for kinetics, if it ever really became a problem, they could just turn their force-fields on to the "force" setting. It probably uses just as much energy as any other forcefield, so they don't have it on by default, but they absolutely have at least a low-powered option available, as seen in First Contact - biological material doesn't handle vacuum or radiation very well. Armor is also available to the Borg (and apparently becomes standard, or at least logical, in the future). But they don't deal with species so primitive that they use kinetic weapons as standard, since we've seen that directed energy weapons are better than kinetics in almost every way, and you'd always use the best against someone like the Borg.
When, exactly? Because I recall Picard getting killed once by some random villager with a bow and arrow, and more to the point Data killing Borg barehanded, Picard with a submachine gun, and Worf with a bat'leth.
Being easier for lower-tech-base species to build =/= worse.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
After all the only species the borg couldn't assimilate so far were the unidne because of their completely alien nature. And in STO even that issue has been settled.
So ignoring them because they are stupid?
Don't know. The reason why the kazon were not assimilated was because they are entirely wotheless. They had nothing to offer in physical ways the 1 million other species didn't already contribute and were mentally inferior.
Those dinosaurs have something to offer. Phaysical advantages a humanoid combat drone does not offer. Claws, velocity ect.
In the series the borg drones were slow zombies, and actually pretty much unarmed (the only ones who could shoot were Lores de-assimilated drones).
In 2409 they obviously changed their tactics and that remarks and actually MAKE combat drones, dinosaurs would be a good addition.
My suggestion would be "other", much simpler precautions. In line with the "low tech solution".
The dinosaurs might have in implanted chip that detects nano probes/ assimilation attempts tied to a nice little explosive.
Tne borg are mostly in close combat when assimilating.... if the dinosaurs blow up then they take the borg with them.
Don't think the Voth are in some way attached to those poor beings....
Actually, 7 of 9 fully assimilated had a wrist mounted disruptor.
And the "interior" of the 8472 bioship in Scorpion that was attached to the Borg cube wreckage was regenerating from being hit by Borg disruptor fire.
Tactical drones are also referred to in the series as well(in particular that Talaxians make for good ones).
Oh here we go again. :rolleyes:
It has been proven time and again that the Borg have no means of protecting themselves from kinetic weapons, yet someone always insists they can do it, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Energy weapons are the best against the Borg?
Two shots and you're carrying a water pistol because they've adapted and you're not damaging them anymore!
Which is why you go for the low-tech solution, the Borg can't stop a bullet, blade or a simple punch/kick.
Also, the Borg have been known on occassion to use dampening fields which disables energy weapons completely.
And I should remind you that the TR-116a was specifically designed to function in dampening fields, it can't be disabled in this manner.
And for bonus points, it shoots bullets, not energy beams!
Which is why I think the Voth are very aware of the Borg's limitations and are exploiting them.
And yes, the Voth are using trained animals, but if your army is being torn apart by a rampaging V.Rex (or several!), you're going to direct a Drone to assimilate them so it can be turned on it's masters, even if it costs the life of the Drone in the process.
And I seriously doubt the Voth are so foolish as to unleash such a formidable warrior on the Borg if they weren't certain they had a way to protect them from assimilation.
Given that their animals are cybernetically augmented, it could be a possibility that their cybernetic control systems have been designed to negate external control measures.
I'd speculate that if such a defense exists, the cybernetic implants would either destroy the foreign nanoprobes as a foreign implant or override the Borg operating system and force deactivate the nanoprobes.
Alternatively, since they are genetically engineered, they could have introduced natural measures to protect them.
Icheb's species has the ability to create a virus that could kill the Borg and they were far less advanced then the Voth.
This virus was then integrated into his DNA so he could manufacture the virus symbiotically and transfer it to other Borg.
An adaption of a similar virus could specifically target Borg nanoprobes as they entered the bloodstream and dismantle them.
Or infect the Drone trying to assimilate the waranimal and kill them with the infection.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Put on a helmet.
Given how determined the Borg are, they may be patient enough to simply cross the no-warp zone at sublight speed with a big enough fleet to gain a stable foothold on the outside.
Actually it was Hazari that made for good tactical drones: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tactical_drone
They'd still be met with the Voth Fleet, which as we've seen thus far in game... is enough to handle them.
The 'bridge burning', while wasteful to us outsiders... is probably just seen as another layer of defense rather than a silver bullet solution to the Borg invading their territory.
From the cinematic, it seemed to me that the Voth weren't by any means 'on the ropes' with the Borg, they were just getting annoyed enough by the constant attempts to assimilate them that they wanted to take some more drastic measures.
Even if the Borg got through the Omega Particle-detonated regions of space, they'd still be no threat to the Voth fleet within their own territory. The Voth are just going to make it even more inconvenient for them if not convince them that the resources needed to attack Voth Space at sublight speed are not worth the effort.
Best case scenario: The Borg give up, not having the advantage of FTL travel through the Voth's borders, and thus finally convincing them that the Voth aren't worth the effort.
Worst case scenario: The Borg still attack, but without FTL travel it becomes even more costly to lose battle after battle against the Voth, and making it more convenient for them to shore up their defenses where needed.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
That doesn't specify what kind.