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AP Cannons/Turrets: Fleet, Voth or Undine?
rck01
Member Posts: 808 Arc User
Thinking of upgrading the AP weapons on my Hirogen Hunter escort but I'm not sure which option to choose:
1. I currently have all Fleet Advanced AP DHCs, DBB and Turrets with the Acc x2/Dmg x2 modifiers.
2. I recently picked up an Undine Fluidic AP DBB with the Acc x3 modifier. So far, I like it better than my Fleet DBB. I don't get the monster 60K+ BO3 hits with it, but it definitely hits more often and frequently cuts my fully buffed opponents nearly half in the process.
3. I also use the Nukara console to give the DBB an effective "Acc x4" modifier.
4. I find that, while the DBB connects a lot, the DHCs and turrets miss quite often. This is a problem since I need them to erode or take down entirely the target's shield facing prior to the BO3 trigger. Hence why I'm leaning towards the Undine DHcs as they're available with an Acc x3 modifier.
5. The other Acc x3 AP option is the Voth version. However, I've heard nothing but bad things about those weapons and I'm inclined to stay away.
Bottom Line: I want to improve my build, and I think the best way to do that is by increasing the accuracy for my secondary weapons. However, I don't want to waste a bunch of EC on stuff that will yield less effective damage than my Fleet weapons.
Frankly, the Fleet Advanced AP weapons are pretty awesome, so topping them is a challenge. Advice, especially if derived from practical experience, would be greatly appreciated.
RCK
1. I currently have all Fleet Advanced AP DHCs, DBB and Turrets with the Acc x2/Dmg x2 modifiers.
2. I recently picked up an Undine Fluidic AP DBB with the Acc x3 modifier. So far, I like it better than my Fleet DBB. I don't get the monster 60K+ BO3 hits with it, but it definitely hits more often and frequently cuts my fully buffed opponents nearly half in the process.
3. I also use the Nukara console to give the DBB an effective "Acc x4" modifier.
4. I find that, while the DBB connects a lot, the DHCs and turrets miss quite often. This is a problem since I need them to erode or take down entirely the target's shield facing prior to the BO3 trigger. Hence why I'm leaning towards the Undine DHcs as they're available with an Acc x3 modifier.
5. The other Acc x3 AP option is the Voth version. However, I've heard nothing but bad things about those weapons and I'm inclined to stay away.
Bottom Line: I want to improve my build, and I think the best way to do that is by increasing the accuracy for my secondary weapons. However, I don't want to waste a bunch of EC on stuff that will yield less effective damage than my Fleet weapons.
Frankly, the Fleet Advanced AP weapons are pretty awesome, so topping them is a challenge. Advice, especially if derived from practical experience, would be greatly appreciated.
RCK
Post edited by rck01 on
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Comments
Now, for Antiproton weapons? Regular Antiproton is king, which Fleet Advanced are a part of. There are some other ways to get free, regular Antiproton weapons. Voth & Undine AP have gimmicky procs that I don't put much faith in. But regular AP weapons? They all give a bonus to Crit Severity. This is not a proc that you hope ticks off at 2.5% of the time or something like 25% chance to occur if you crit. No, it is a flat bonus to your Critical Hits being made to hit harder, guaranteed.
Simple as that, and why regular AP is better than Voth and Undine AP.
The one thing I will say Voth AP is great in, is visual appearance and sound effects.
So fleet DHCs, undine DBB, and voth turrets
But where to get them? The Exchange is full of Voth or Undine AP, nothing else!
Note: Assuming VR Mark 12 versions in all cases.
RCK
[acc]x2 [CrtD] in my opinion is the way to go.
There is no regular Antiproton weapons at MK XII, they simply do not exist. Therefore, you cannot get regular AP weapons Mk XII with Acc X 3.
Your numbers are completely off. Either you remember incorrectly, or VD's numbers were off. The relationship between Acc and Defense is a linear one, for the most part that is, except when Defense = zero or negative. At high defense, the hit chance % will drop almost proportionally to whatever accuracy value you have and it ain't just 1 or 2%. I believe mancom recently pegged it roughly at about 6% more hit chance per each Acc modifier (i.e. per every 10% increase in Accuracy).
Just imagine what it would be like to FBP III that back...
i prefer otherwise, dbb for take down shields and cannons for hull. Why? first of all, u want to fire your dbb at max energy, not while your DHC are draining, and since you dont have cloak, u wont take the 100% of the hull with the BO hit, so a direct rf voley into the hull is far more effective.
you are correct in there bro. The diference beetwen accx2 and accx3 is not small vs a high defense target, imo accx3 has always been a must for dhc. With dbb u can manage to reduce target's defense in the right moment and take advantage of the CrtD mod
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Interesting. So you would use the DBB for the shield takedown...hmmm, worth a try.
And if I'm reading the second part of your comment correctly, you're saying that going from Fleet AP DHCs to either Voth Acc x3 or Undine Acc x3 is the right move?
Note: Given Iskandus' comment above about the lack of Mark 12 "generic" AP weapons, what about dropping a level and looking for VR Mark 11 Acc x3 DHCs? Do they exist? And would the preservation of the inherent +30 CritD bonus offset the loss of overall damage from dropping down a notch vs. Mark 12 Undine or Voth?
In other words, is a Mark 11 VR DHC (assuming they exist) with Acc x3 modifier the best AP option for a PvP player in a cannon escort?
Note: A quick check of Exchange seems to indicate that even Mark XI AP DHCs with Acc x3 are impossible to find, if they exist at all.
RCK
AP has never been a weapon type that drops. It was the launch PvP weapon. Giving up the RNG for more raw dmg.
However the ones you could earn for the old PvP marks (there was a PvE version as well)... where MK X. There never was a [acc]x3 version of those. (back then before the defense revamp ACC was worse then dmg anyway).
The only regular style AP in the game... are the crafted ones... the D store ones (I think those are still around)... and the fleet. None of which include 3 acc mods.
So if you want an ACCx3 of any kind it would have to be lockbox ap.
My suggestion... Fleet DHC (because they are basicly [acc]x2 [crtd] [dmg]x2 of any thing else, just with no proc at all)... with a ACCx3 beam (either lockbox makes no difference)... with Undine turrets (to me the proc seems useful... and bonus [dmg] from fleet is pointless on a turret)
Thanks for the background info on AP weapons. I never fully understood their genesis or why I couldn't find "generic" versions with the full CritD proc, etc.
So...it sounds like I have most of what you recommend already. I have 3x Fleet AP DHCs (Acc x2, Dmg x2) up front along with an Acc x3 Undine DBB. All I need to swap out is the two turrets at the back (both currently Fleet version), probably for the Undine as you suggested.
I'm assuming I should go for Acc x3 on the turrets?
Also, any opinion on the KCB? Should I keep it for the OWA? Or drop it for another turret?
RCK
Up to you I wouldn't worry about spending millions of ec on AccX3 turrets myself. [acc]x2 on a turret is good enough imo... Not counting EC costs though ya likely accx3 is the best by a likely small margin.
The cutting beam... I don't know I still run it on most of my ships. I have heard some good arguments against it though. If it makes sense in your build to run the console I would say why not.
I guess test it yourself and see what you think. You could pick up a few lockbox turrets and test them with one of your fleet turrets and run a few matches / parse it for yourself and see what feels right to you.
Direct to hull dmg proc + repel.
Turrets don't hit hard anyway... and I think this might be semi useful.
My thoughts on AP have never changed anyway. They are one of the weakest weapons in the game that for some reason people seem to like.
CrtD isn't really that great a mod imo. I wouldn't trade it for a disruptor or polaron proc. Even with all the resist to it I would rather have a phaser proc as well. Tetryon is painful weak proc, At least they are a ResA weapon type though. AP is ResB... same as disruptor which imo is a good enough reason to not run them.
(Phaser / Polaron / Tet) Pretty much what I stick to... I have just found the amount of resist to them in general always tends to be lower.
If I was going to choose a Res B weapon type... frankly I would always go disruptor myself. It has also been in the most lockboxes... so you have tons of options for proc mix and matching. Elachi/Nanite/Polarized/Rominized/Phased (beams anyway)/E disruptors (klink side)... not to mention good old drop mod Standard disruptors in every flavor.
One CrtD mod just doesn't add enough imo to drop a proc all together. The lockbox AP weapons don't keep the standard AP bonus... so really all they are is unique weapon types that share a dmg boost console. From that perspective... I don't really think the lockbox procs are that great really. I would take a polaron power proc over the voth ap proc... and if you want a hull dmg proc elachi are still king.
Which brings up another question: Should I bother pushing for more/better AP weapons? Or should I switch energy types altogether?
I ask because I already have a bunch of locator and exploiter consoles for Polaron. Grinding for the Weapons is NBD - it's the console grind that's brutal. Since that's already out of the way (thanks to my FAW-abusing past as a cruiser captain), the changeover hill isn't quite as steep.
So...Acc x3 Polaron DHCs FTW?
RCK
There isn't much more evil then a phaser / polaron combo proc.
Mainly though it moves your dmg type over to RESa... most people run RESb by default and rarely switch unless your entire team happens to be running polarons or something.
In general people will keep there RESb shield on, chances are they are getting hit with much more disruptor ap and plasma (in kerrat).
I don't know what the new heavy turret is like... I think if its half decent though phasers might be a great option as well. Lets you run the new heavy turret.. and there ResA. Looks if you run the turret... you can run the mission reward tac console. Seems to me with the set bonus + to phaser dmg its not a bad option... lends itself to running torps I guess over overload though... of course tommorows patch removes the 3 stack limit on the borg sheering trait. (EDIT... just looked ya only like +20 phaser dmg with that console, I guess its junk unless you run torpedos... if you can make room though you could run the turret with the uni console which gives a bit of ACC + turn and still get the small phaser dmg bonus.)
Well, I pulled the trigger on some Polaron DHCs. They were direct cheap in the Exchange - 1M or so for Acc x2/CrtD cannons. Basically, they reproduce the core modifiers from my Fleet AP weapons (minus the Dmg x2).
And, of course, they're Res A. I'm intimately familiar with Polarons, having run Acc x3 beams on my cruiser for some time now. Always have good success vs. klink-aligned targets since the majority are running Res B shields.
Anyway, for under 5m I was able to get 3 DHCs and 2 turrets - a cheap and easy way to experiment to see if I'm more effective with the different energy type in a cannon build.
RCK
Overall I'm sure you won't see to much difference. Base dmg on all the weapon types are =. The couple extra [dmg] mods on your ap will be offset by the ResA/B stuff. The polaron procs range from meh to great. Depends a bit on your flow spend... and honestly how you proc them. Polaron doesn't stack the power cap... but it does stack the drain. I have seen people sit still and loose shields from time to time even when I have low flow cap spend. It is possible to double or triple proc someone and drain a ton of power for a short time.
In the end all it really comes down to is what colour you want to be pew pewing with. lol
FWIW, I'm getting some monster crits from my Polaron Fleet DBB. It looks like the Res A vs. B difference is more of a factor wrt spike damage, like from a BO3 shot. Regardless, I've never been able to pop really big ships (think Natasha in her Recluse) with an AP DBB (either Fleet or Fluidic), but I'm doing so now with the Pol DBB.
Time to grind for an Acc x3 version so I can do a true apples to apples vs. the Fluidic AP I had been using. Regardless, it seems like an improvement. I'm definitely hitting harder, and I'm the change is directly attributable to the energy type switch to Res A.
Thanks for steering me in this direction! My victims will now hold you responsible for making me even more annoying than before.
RCK
I also think there is not enough data points for you to conclude your Polaron DBB is more effective than the AP one vs. Natasha. One BO III cannot kill a tank like Natasha, it is simply impossible. Even without being there, I am convinced you did not take into account what else might be going on at that point and jumped into a false conclusion.
There dual proc weapons... so when you get a phaser proc its in combo with the polaron proc. If you proc someones engine and then also drain a good chunk of there shield power it can make for a WTH moment. (A2Bers particularly as they will often also see there heals grey out if they had a2b up)
I'm not claiming that I solo killed her. But I did take her from a healthy hull down to nothing in one shot, and did so more than once. Of course, she was busy with other ships at the time, and I'm sure some heavy debuffing had already been applied to her. However, I could never have done even close to that level of damage using AP, so I have to conclude that a switch to a Res A energy type was a net plus in this encounter.
The good news is that I now full sets of both Res A and Res B type weapons, so if I encounter someone with Res A shields I can simply swap out for AP, or vice-versa.
And yes, I know, they can just swap out their shield, and we can go back and forth like this. But at least I'm *trying* to improve myself and/or give myself more options.
RCK
I never claimed everyone is running RESb... I am simply stating a pretty solid testable fact. The MAJORITY of targets you face WILL be using RESb fleet shields. Those that aren't are running a hodge podge mix of Rep shields.
Most of the rep shields have just standard + all resist on them. So in that case there really is no difference between AP and Polaron... trade one CrtD mod for an actual proc, or the oddball lockbox procs (with out the extra crtd) It about nets out at best.
However if your target has chosen to run Dyson or Undine Shields they do have +20% bonus resist to AP... as well as likely a set bonus that is giving them hull resist to AP as well. (not to mention the dyson engi consoles that the odd person runs for the +defense they all have bonus AP resist on them)
Last I checked the only set shield that resisted polaron was the Breen MK XI shield... if anyone is running that well all the power to them... its not going to save them vs Rcks polarons I don't think. lol
The only real shields he would run into that would have specific resists would be ResA fleet shields... and hey in that case many people I know where keeping a second set of weapons in there inv. I believe Cryptic has made it pretty easy for us to switch weapon sets with one click out of combat.
I am not convinced. You simply don't know what debuffs she got at that time vis-a-vis previously.
The best way to test is to 1 vs 1 Natasha and ask her not to use elite cheese interceptors. You'll see more accurately if there is any difference.
Sadly, I doubt she'd be that accommodating. But regardless, I'm having better overall success vs. a variety of targets, and that's all that really matters to me.
Nitpicking over one particular kill is simply unproductive at this juncture. I've been PvP'ing long enough to know (instinctively) when my weapons are performing better vs. known targets, and I also tend to agree with Antonio's analysis of energy weapon effectiveness vis-a-vis specific shield configurations or end game sets.
Of course, I'll continue to test my hypothesis. But for now the satisfaction of "killing more bad guys" is an end in and of itself.
Note: Perhaps if I actually saw you in-game from time to time we could do a proper analysis. But you quit STO, so...
RCK
This. Fleet Antiproton is the only space weapon that has passive bonus to CrtD per weapon, so the higher your CrtH, the more damage they'll do. Kinda neat for Romulans. Undine AP repel isn't great, Voth proc is LOL.
So far I use Fleet AP front, Voth turrets in the back, and they work like a charm
Because using Fleet AP turrets is like trying to take down a building with a Magnum .44. Best turret for damage, but still not enough at all in this case. You're better with something that will eventually make you last longer by lowering enemy's damage output.
Fair enough
I can be your *punching bag*, I can log on this Friday or Saturday afternoon. It also give me an opportunity to show you the top secret ship I have discreetly been designing - with features from each of my 3 toons and in my view, the most OP ship I have ever created. I will stand still and let you shoot me with your BO III and I can even swap various shield types for you to see the difference - just be careful though, a still target isn't always harmless...
My theory is that the shield resist is irrelevant when it comes to a spike DMG like BO III. Mr. Salientia may think by using a less popular energy type helps because target is less likely to be prepared for it but I don't agree and I think your apparent success with Natasha is nothing but coincidence so we'll prove it once for all.
Co-Founder of TOS Veterans and TOS Qan Mang
Hey! Yeah, you! Get the hell out! Can't you see Iskandus and I are having a "private" moment here? :mad:
Geesh! Some people! :eek:
RCL