It was also never intended for cruisers to be able to have Eject Warp plasma pouring out there backsides 100% of the time, all while having RSP on a 1 min cool down instead of 2. (all 3 skills don't have there own cool down doffs for a reason.)
And some players will chain RSPs and then throw in the Fab Engineer doff for good measure. Net result: Nearly 100% RSP uptime. I know a few players who do this - one in particular pulls it off without A2B, so...way OP.
And some players will chain RSPs and then throw in the Fab Engineer doff for good measure. Net result: Nearly 100% RSP uptime. I know a few players who do this - one in particular pulls it off without A2B, so...way OP.
RCK
Yes the durration doff is almost as bad... still at least the player you are talking about has to dedicate to boff slots to RSP... making him basicly a none threat. Point is on something like a pure dmg galor I can keep RSP around half the time and dish out 50k dps as well. That is where the broken nature of the doffs comes in. The guys that chain multiple copies of RSP have always been around... they where just never really any threat.
Yes the durration doff is almost as bad... still at least the player you are talking about has to dedicate to boff slots to RSP... making him basicly a none threat. Point is on something like a pure dmg galor I can keep RSP around half the time and dish out 50k dps as well. That is where the broken nature of the doffs comes in. The guys that chain multiple copies of RSP have always been around... they where just never really any threat.
Good points!
BTW, still having a blast with my non-A2B, non-BFAW, classic-built PvP escort. :cool:
Beams don't overcap properly. Beams have no overcapping limit. So hitting a2b + faw... pushes weapon power well into the 150+ range and the faw hurts much more then it should. Throw in the issue I stated where people are now running EPTW + A2B + Faw... and you start talking about 200 weapon power levels.
Yes, but overcapping works exactly the same for every weapon. Beams don't have some kind of monopoly on overcap. You can overcap cannons, too. It's just that the far improved energy efficiency of cannons tends to render such a thing unnecessary and less effective, whereas beams REQUIRE it to not suck. This means that a cannon-boat can use the power to be a lot FASTER than a beamboat is, without losing any damage at all.
BTW, still having a blast with my non-A2B, non-BFAW, classic-built PvP escort. :cool:
Yarr matey!
Wassdat thar buckets o' rust me be blowin up here th' other day?
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
1. Hunter Escort = 75m EC on exchange (or the luck of the draw in a Hirogen Lock Box).
2. Doffs = 85m EC on exchange (2 AP doffs, 3 DCE doffs, 1 AMS doff)
3. Elite Fleet Resilient Res B Shield = 65K FC + 25,500 Dil
4. Advanced Fleet Weapons (x6) = 20K FC + 8500 Dil (per weapon)
5. Enhanced Fleet Neutronium = 50K FC + 8500 Dil
6. Enhanced Fleet RCS = 50K FC + 8500 Dil
7. Borg Mk 12 Deflector = Omega T5 Rep + 32,500 Dil + various other items and marks
8. Borg Mk 12 Engine = Omega T5 Rep + 32,500 Dil + various other items and marks
9. Borg Cutting Beam = Omega T2 Rep + 15,000 Dil + various other items and marks
10. Borg Assim. Module = Omega T1 Rep + 15,000 Dil + various other items and marks
11. Romulan Embassy Boffs (x2) = 60,000 FC + 20,000 Dil (each)
12. Nukara Particle Converter = Nukara T2 Rep + 15,000 Dil + various other items and marks
13. Zero Point Module = Romulan T2 Rep + 15,000 Dil + various other items and marks
14. Plasmonic Leech = 22m EC on exchange
15. Elite Fleet Warp Core = 65,000 FC + 25,500 Dil
16. Fleet Spire Locators (x4) = 50,000 FC + 9,500 Dil (each)
17. Fleet Spire 6th Doff Slot = 150K FC
Totals (don't fault me if I added something incorrectly):
EC Costs: 182m
Dil Costs: 288K
FC Costs: 820K
RCK
Whoah! Now you made me eager of calculating my Scimitar cost... (more or less)
I bought all three ships individually (feeling half idiot for it).
7500*137= 1.027.500 dilithium for the ships
32000 dilithium for fleet Weaponry + 80000 FC
30000 dilithium for KCB, Borg Module
64000 dilithium for Borg Deflector and Engines.
125000 FC + 60000 dilithium for core and shield.
45000 dilithium for protonic arsenal set
1000*137=137000 dilithium for Valdore warbird.
42500 dilithium for spire tactical consoles + 250000 FC
6 millions EC for Voth turrets.
67mil EC for Zemoks alone.
8 mil for a superior infiltrator.
Grand total
dilithium: 1.438.000 dilithium
FC: 455000
EC: 81 mil.
........ oh lawd, and I didn't even consider the prices of reputations and experimental builds in the process :eek:
Was worth it. Every penny of it, that ship's a monster :cool:
To a certain extent this is true for me. Without A2B I wouldn't be able to PvP as I want as my DHC cruiser wouldn't be able to cycle APO, making it a sitting duck with all the hold/slow abilities.
Of course all that would mean is I'd go back to my Mobius and again be able to rely on aux based powers again. So really it wouldn't make much difference to me, except for the fact I like cruisers.
Meanwhile the biggest hitters are Scimitars, who work better without A2B
"Come back without A2B and some cannons and we'll see how well you do..."
Someone told me to do that... The only difference in the fight was that my health never went below 95% (since I was now free to use the lovely Aux2SIF3). He then went on a rant about how I was still using Aux2bat. Blew him up three more times, still not using aux2bat, total noob raging on about how I must still be using it.
No it would still be a massive issue. The doff is 100% broken. People complain about the combo because 2 broken things are more op then just one. lol
I detailed the history of the doff. It wasn't really broken when it first came out... in fact they where not popular at all, I bought my first set of tech doffs for like 250k each. When bort changed the system global for a2b he broke the doffs bad. I was just saying when you hear people complaining about FAW/Tech its a combo because they are both borked. A2B is just as broken on a destroyer type ship that has the extra engi slots as it is on a cruiser. It is more noticable on cruisers because skills that NEVER got cool down boffs mainly because of balance concerns get them through tech doffs... Skills like Dem which have 1:30 cool downs where never intended to have there cool downs set to 45s... It was also never intended for cruisers to be able to have Eject Warp plasma pouring out there backsides 100% of the time, all while having RSP on a 1 min cool down instead of 2. (all 3 skills don't have there own cool down doffs for a reason.)
Slight correction on the history. They were chance based, not 100% effective (iirc they did have higher effect when they pro'd) when they 1st came out. This really made them an unwanted option when there were:
1. Conn Officer Doffs that double ticked when triggered so you could get lolz evasives cooldown.
2. BFI doff w/better than HE3 repairs.
3. Maint Doff that reduced cooldowns to all 3 teams.
4. Hazzard Doffs (not nearly as impressive since aux2damp doffs came out) w/their nice hull resist boosts.
5. Warp Core Engineer +25 per system power boost (w/spec'd Plas leech made for over 200 power gain).
I'm sure there were others I'm forgetting, but the difference is Heretic cared about balance and power creep. He Fixed Conn Officer Doffs, while breaking Maint Doff out to only effect Eng Team and adding 2 other doffs for Sci and TT. He buffed Tech doffs by removing the chance based nature, but didn't do the craziness like you mentioned. But, it's even worse when considering over time they've removed many shared cooldowns like PH & HE, various Sci Deflector Debuffing boff cooldowns etc.
If not for the cleanse doff people would be feeling all the Sci vomit I (and others) can put out w/aux2batt and procs for extra debuffs (Grav & VM doffs). I guess part of this also goes back to an early Fed oriented archetype where Sci Captains were "healers" too. The point being it's not just DPS builds that get boosted by Tech Doffs.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Well, after nearly a month of flying a cannon-build almost exclusively I have concluded that I actually *prefer* this play style to my older, FAW-spamming ways. The thrill of identifying a target, then buffing up and swooping in like a bird of prey - DHCs, turrets and DBB blasting away - is highly addictive.
In fact, I now find beam-play, whether on my escort or my trusty FAHCR, to be incredibly boring by comparison. There's simply nothing quite so exhilarating as hitting that monster BO shot and watching your target panic as 3/4 of their hull gets vaporized. The phrase "they never knew what hit them" seems quite apt here.
Bottom Line: I think every serious PvP player should learn to master the classic escort build. Even if you plan to spend most of your time flying a FAW-spamming, cross-healing, buff-stripping cruiser or sci ship, it behooves you to at least understand the perspective of the "fighter jock." If nothing else, you'll gain some insight into their tactics and also a healthy respect for just how hard it is to properly time an effective alpha strike.
How would you compare the 2 playstyles? Which needs more work to get a kill? Would you say they are both balanced?
Escort play is MUCH harder. With a cruiser, in a 1v1 scenario, as long as I could keep my broadside on the target I knew I was generating the maximum possible damage. In fact, the whole reason I began slotting +Turn and RCS consoles was to make it easier to keep that broadside on target vs. a speedy escort that was trying to latch onto my tail. Add in FAW, DEM3 and the fact that I'm a Tac captain (and thus can boost their effects with APA3 and FOMM3 every few minutes), and it becomes relatively easy to kill targets with average shields and hull. Just keep turning and let autofire do the rest.
By contrast, flying an escort - especially a DHC/DBB-equipped one - requires a great deal of piloting skill. Just getting the cannons lined up consistently against an equally speedy/high turn rate escort - is a huge challenge in and of itself. However, piloting is only part of the equation. Managing your buffs so that you maximize your alpha is another consideration, as is leveraging your APO, EPtE and Evasive skills to keep your speed up (but not too fast or you'll overshoot).
In the end, I've resorted to manually triggering my big gun (the BO3 shot from the DBB), which adds yet another layer of timing/concentration to the mix. So, in answer to your question, yes the play style is MUCH more challenging - but also more rewarding. When you're flowing through multiple opponents, seamlessly managing offensive, defensive and speed buffs while maintaining aim/firing at the optimal moment, there's a sense of fluidity amidst the chaos. It becomes almost like a dance, with you as the lead and your target as your "partner."
Escort play is MUCH harder. With a cruiser, in a 1v1 scenario, as long as I could keep my broadside on the target I knew I was generating the maximum possible damage. In fact, the whole reason I began slotting +Turn and RCS consoles was to make it easier to keep that broadside on target vs. a speedy escort that was trying to latch onto my tail. Add in FAW, DEM3 and the fact that I'm a Tac captain (and thus can boost their effects with APA3 and FOMM3 every few minutes), and it becomes relatively easy to kill targets with average shields and hull. Just keep turning and let autofire do the rest.
By contrast, flying an escort - especially a DHC/DBB-equipped one - requires a great deal of piloting skill. Just getting the cannons lined up consistently against an equally speedy/high turn rate escort - is a huge challenge in and of itself. However, piloting is only part of the equation. Managing your buffs so that you maximize your alpha is another consideration, as is leveraging your APO, EPtE and Evasive skills to keep your speed up (but not too fast or you'll overshoot).
In the end, I've resorted to manually triggering my big gun (the BO3 shot from the DBB), which adds yet another layer of timing/concentration to the mix. So, in answer to your question, yes the play style is MUCH more challenging - but also more rewarding. When you're flowing through multiple opponents, seamlessly managing offensive, defensive and speed buffs while maintaining aim/firing at the optimal moment, there's a sense of fluidity amidst the chaos. It becomes almost like a dance, with you as the lead and your target as your "partner."
The feeling is almost sublime...
RCK
Scimitar with cannons and a torpedo spread feels the same
Bottom Line: I think every serious PvP player should learn to master the classic escort build. ... If nothing else, you'll gain some insight into their tactics and also a healthy respect for just how hard it is to properly time an effective alpha strike.
RCK
Indeed, I played one of my tacs in the galor for a long time eschewing the classic style build. Recently got the same toon in a Hirogen and loving the challenge of making it work. Relearning old tricks and styles.
Comments
And some players will chain RSPs and then throw in the Fab Engineer doff for good measure. Net result: Nearly 100% RSP uptime. I know a few players who do this - one in particular pulls it off without A2B, so...way OP.
RCK
Yes the durration doff is almost as bad... still at least the player you are talking about has to dedicate to boff slots to RSP... making him basicly a none threat. Point is on something like a pure dmg galor I can keep RSP around half the time and dish out 50k dps as well. That is where the broken nature of the doffs comes in. The guys that chain multiple copies of RSP have always been around... they where just never really any threat.
Good points!
BTW, still having a blast with my non-A2B, non-BFAW, classic-built PvP escort. :cool:
LOL. Sorry It seems you have lost controll of your thread.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Yarr matey!
Wassdat thar buckets o' rust me be blowin up here th' other day?
Spacebar is OP, please nerf
Whoah! Now you made me eager of calculating my Scimitar cost... (more or less)
I bought all three ships individually (feeling half idiot for it).
7500*137= 1.027.500 dilithium for the ships
32000 dilithium for fleet Weaponry + 80000 FC
30000 dilithium for KCB, Borg Module
64000 dilithium for Borg Deflector and Engines.
125000 FC + 60000 dilithium for core and shield.
45000 dilithium for protonic arsenal set
1000*137=137000 dilithium for Valdore warbird.
42500 dilithium for spire tactical consoles + 250000 FC
6 millions EC for Voth turrets.
67mil EC for Zemoks alone.
8 mil for a superior infiltrator.
Grand total
dilithium: 1.438.000 dilithium
FC: 455000
EC: 81 mil.
........ oh lawd, and I didn't even consider the prices of reputations and experimental builds in the process :eek:
Was worth it. Every penny of it, that ship's a monster :cool:
ps. remember to punish klinks in Ker'rat
To a certain extent this is true for me. Without A2B I wouldn't be able to PvP as I want as my DHC cruiser wouldn't be able to cycle APO, making it a sitting duck with all the hold/slow abilities.
Of course all that would mean is I'd go back to my Mobius and again be able to rely on aux based powers again. So really it wouldn't make much difference to me, except for the fact I like cruisers.
Meanwhile the biggest hitters are Scimitars, who work better without A2B
Someone told me to do that... The only difference in the fight was that my health never went below 95% (since I was now free to use the lovely Aux2SIF3). He then went on a rant about how I was still using Aux2bat. Blew him up three more times, still not using aux2bat, total noob raging on about how I must still be using it.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Slight correction on the history. They were chance based, not 100% effective (iirc they did have higher effect when they pro'd) when they 1st came out. This really made them an unwanted option when there were:
1. Conn Officer Doffs that double ticked when triggered so you could get lolz evasives cooldown.
2. BFI doff w/better than HE3 repairs.
3. Maint Doff that reduced cooldowns to all 3 teams.
4. Hazzard Doffs (not nearly as impressive since aux2damp doffs came out) w/their nice hull resist boosts.
5. Warp Core Engineer +25 per system power boost (w/spec'd Plas leech made for over 200 power gain).
I'm sure there were others I'm forgetting, but the difference is Heretic cared about balance and power creep. He Fixed Conn Officer Doffs, while breaking Maint Doff out to only effect Eng Team and adding 2 other doffs for Sci and TT. He buffed Tech doffs by removing the chance based nature, but didn't do the craziness like you mentioned. But, it's even worse when considering over time they've removed many shared cooldowns like PH & HE, various Sci Deflector Debuffing boff cooldowns etc.
If not for the cleanse doff people would be feeling all the Sci vomit I (and others) can put out w/aux2batt and procs for extra debuffs (Grav & VM doffs). I guess part of this also goes back to an early Fed oriented archetype where Sci Captains were "healers" too. The point being it's not just DPS builds that get boosted by Tech Doffs.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
In fact, I now find beam-play, whether on my escort or my trusty FAHCR, to be incredibly boring by comparison. There's simply nothing quite so exhilarating as hitting that monster BO shot and watching your target panic as 3/4 of their hull gets vaporized. The phrase "they never knew what hit them" seems quite apt here.
Bottom Line: I think every serious PvP player should learn to master the classic escort build. Even if you plan to spend most of your time flying a FAW-spamming, cross-healing, buff-stripping cruiser or sci ship, it behooves you to at least understand the perspective of the "fighter jock." If nothing else, you'll gain some insight into their tactics and also a healthy respect for just how hard it is to properly time an effective alpha strike.
RCK
How would you compare the 2 playstyles? Which needs more work to get a kill? Would you say they are both balanced?
Escort play is MUCH harder. With a cruiser, in a 1v1 scenario, as long as I could keep my broadside on the target I knew I was generating the maximum possible damage. In fact, the whole reason I began slotting +Turn and RCS consoles was to make it easier to keep that broadside on target vs. a speedy escort that was trying to latch onto my tail. Add in FAW, DEM3 and the fact that I'm a Tac captain (and thus can boost their effects with APA3 and FOMM3 every few minutes), and it becomes relatively easy to kill targets with average shields and hull. Just keep turning and let autofire do the rest.
By contrast, flying an escort - especially a DHC/DBB-equipped one - requires a great deal of piloting skill. Just getting the cannons lined up consistently against an equally speedy/high turn rate escort - is a huge challenge in and of itself. However, piloting is only part of the equation. Managing your buffs so that you maximize your alpha is another consideration, as is leveraging your APO, EPtE and Evasive skills to keep your speed up (but not too fast or you'll overshoot).
In the end, I've resorted to manually triggering my big gun (the BO3 shot from the DBB), which adds yet another layer of timing/concentration to the mix. So, in answer to your question, yes the play style is MUCH more challenging - but also more rewarding. When you're flowing through multiple opponents, seamlessly managing offensive, defensive and speed buffs while maintaining aim/firing at the optimal moment, there's a sense of fluidity amidst the chaos. It becomes almost like a dance, with you as the lead and your target as your "partner."
The feeling is almost sublime...
RCK
Scimitar with cannons and a torpedo spread feels the same
Now you undestand
Indeed, I played one of my tacs in the galor for a long time eschewing the classic style build. Recently got the same toon in a Hirogen and loving the challenge of making it work. Relearning old tricks and styles.