What do you think all the KDF carriers use other than pet spamming? Yep, BFAW. Which faction has the most carriers? Yep, KDF. Which type of hull is most likely to use BFAW? Carriers/Cruisers. I think you just slapped yourself in the face and it doesn't look good.
Yellowstones are not very useful simply because few Fed ships have hangars and of those that do, they usually have no more than 1 hangar, which severely limits the number they can launch. Its weapons do almost no damage and the tractors can be countered in a gazillion ways and only stupid people will purposely fly their ship into stationary space plasma which does zero dmg btw. Most Feds don't use Yellowstone as their pets in PvP for these reasons, only some Klingons like yourself keep using this red herring / hyperoble to justify Klink's use of Elite Cheese Interceptors and other truly nasty pet spamming in game.
KDF have better cloaks still, but Fed has always had an upper hand in cloak detection being technologically more advanced of the two. It's amazing to me you manage ton confuse the issue to this extent.
A bit dishonest but thats OK. The KDF has multiple carriers yes but only one useful one for the most part the Karfi, the the Vo'quv the only ship in the game that universe turns around because its turn rate is awful oh and only, the gorn ones are weak. Lets see feds have a carrier carrier, a cruiser carrier, a escort carrier. Fed cruisers apam BFaW most KDF that fly cruisers are usually in Moghs, or the occassional bortas .
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
A bit dishonest but thats OK. The KDF has multiple carriers yes but only one useful one for the most part the Karfi, the the Vo'quv the only ship in the game that universe turns around because its turn rate is awful oh and only, the gorn ones are weak. Lets see feds have a carrier carrier, a cruiser carrier, a escort carrier. Fed cruisers apam BFaW most KDF that fly cruisers are usually in Moghs, or the occassional bortas .
and lets not forget the ratio of fed to kdf... 1 BFAW kdf carriers in 100 Fed BFAW cruisers/carriers ya.. those KDF BFAW carriers sure have a huge impact.
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I can't remember the actual value for it. If it's just ~6k Stealth, then folks could build to see the QSM cloak. The Feign Death cloak on the other hand - even with EPtA3, you'd still need over 3600 SDR to be able to see it...at zero range.
You are forgetting that Sensor Scan can bring the Stealth down by 1K easily. Assuming the Alpha Decoy Console made the user having a 7K Stealth but the target was already affected by a well spec Sensor Scan, his Stealth could be at only 6K or slightly less. At that point, a full burst of TDF + TDG + EPTA could in theory cut through his stealth and detect the ship. I have never tested it though but in theory, it's possible.
You are forgetting that Sensor Scan can bring the Stealth down by 1K easily. Assuming the Alpha Decoy Console made the user having a 7K Stealth but the target was already affected by a well spec Sensor Scan, his Stealth could be at only 6K or slightly less. At that point, a full burst of TDF + TDG + EPTA could in theory cut through his stealth and detect the ship. I have never tested it though but in theory, it's possible.
What T5 Rommie plus regular cloak at the same time?
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
What do you think all the KDF carriers use other than pet spamming? Yep, BFAW. Which faction has the most carriers? Yep, KDF. Which type of hull is most likely to use BFAW? Carriers/Cruisers. I think you just slapped yourself in the face and it doesn't look good.
Yellowstones are not very useful simply because few Fed ships have hangars and of those that do, they usually have no more than 1 hangar, which severely limits the number they can launch. Its weapons do almost no damage and the tractors can be countered in a gazillion ways and only stupid people will purposely fly their ship into stationary space plasma which does zero dmg btw. Most Feds don't use Yellowstone as their pets in PvP for these reasons, only some Klingons like yourself keep using this red herring / hyperoble to justify Klink's use of Elite Cheese Interceptors and other truly nasty pet spamming in game.
KDF have better cloaks still, but Fed has always had an upper hand in cloak detection being technologically more advanced of the two. It's amazing to me you manage ton confuse the issue to this extent.
You're slacking you didn't mention HoBO at least 5 times in your last post.
Carriers using beams hardly do damage except for the Jem Dread, the other carriers doing it are probably not even running much weapon power, they are running shields and aux and just using beams for procs and leech.
You see the occasional Fleet Mogh running BFAW in kerrat but nothing compared to all the Fleet Avengers, Fleet Sovvy, Fleet Excelsiors, monbosh,Jem Dreads and galors I see feds using everywhere in kerrat spamming BFAW A2B and DEM nonstop.
It really shows how 1 sided and delusional you can get sometimes where not only are the KDF all evul vapers, but now we are the main BFAW spammers too :rolleyes:
You are forgetting that Sensor Scan can bring the Stealth down by 1K easily. Assuming the Alpha Decoy Console made the user having a 7K Stealth but the target was already affected by a well spec Sensor Scan, his Stealth could be at only 6K or slightly less. At that point, a full burst of TDF + TDG + EPTA could in theory cut through his stealth and detect the ship. I have never tested it though but in theory, it's possible.
I have. It is possible to see through the cloak provided from any console and Rom cloak. You can not bring them out like a normal cloak, but you can still see them.
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You are forgetting that Sensor Scan can bring the Stealth down by 1K easily. Assuming the Alpha Decoy Console made the user having a 7K Stealth but the target was already affected by a well spec Sensor Scan, his Stealth could be at only 6K or slightly less. At that point, a full burst of TDF + TDG + EPTA could in theory cut through his stealth and detect the ship. I have never tested it though but in theory, it's possible.
Not forgetting anything - you have to hit them with the Scan for that to happen. Even with the Scan landing, with the changes to Teams - that's cleared.
Nebula with TDF, TDG, Scan, Jem/Rom Mk XII Deflector, Astrophysicist, 4x +31.9 Sensor consoles, 9 Sensors, isn't going to get you 3600+ SDR (that's after taking into consideration the Perception Range boost from EPtA3).
It would also be relatively pointless to go with that kind of build - because without heavy support, that's a dead ship waiting to happen.
There's just so many different ways to deal with vapers - unfortunately, most of them require paying some attention and folks tend not to do that. Hell, I'll play lazy from time to time and end up looking at the Respawn button. Not going to complain about it - it's my fault...they caught me with my pants down...good for them - they outplayed me.
I have. It is possible to see through the cloak provided from any console and Rom cloak. You can not bring them out like a normal cloak, but you can still see them.
You'd have to have hit them or caught them in the AoE of a Scan to be able to see them - or - they'd also have to be sporting massive Singularity Charge that's debuffing their Stealth Value (again, it's -400 at 5 pips - folks need to bleed Singularity in PvP...doesn't matter in PvE, but in PvP - it will get you killed).
I have. It is possible to see through the cloak provided from any console and Rom cloak. You can not bring them out like a normal cloak, but you can still see them.
Thanks for validating that my theory is correct. When I played STO, I didn't do Premade so there was no value for me to test the above mentioned hypothesis. And I didn't know the OP was referring to you as the cloak hunter in his chat since no name was given and I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else by the term "2nd tier snooper", I take that back.
If you only play in Premade context, then the T'Varo model is not suitable because it doesn't maximize your cloak detection range that a true Fed Sci ship can. The T'Varo is designed to operate in Kerrat and only Kerrat as a stand alone snooping sniper.
Now, I am curious so if we can see them but can't flush them out, I wonder if an AOE ability such as Proton Barrage could damage them or if PSW can stun them out of the stealth...
Now, I am curious so if we can see them but can't flush them out, I wonder if an AOE ability such as Proton Barrage could damage them or if PSW can stun them out of the stealth...
It's just a case of not being able to decloak them without popping the Lure or it expiring or QSM expiring...doesn't mean you can't obliterate them while they're cloaked if you're able to see them.
Not forgetting anything - you have to hit them with the Scan for that to happen. Even with the Scan landing, with the changes to Teams - that's cleared.
Nebula with TDF, TDG, Scan, Jem/Rom Mk XII Deflector, Astrophysicist, 4x +31.9 Sensor consoles, 9 Sensors, isn't going to get you 3600+ SDR (that's after taking into consideration the Perception Range boost from EPtA3).
It would also be relatively pointless to go with that kind of build - because without heavy support, that's a dead ship waiting to happen.
There's just so many different ways to deal with vapers - unfortunately, most of them require paying some attention and folks tend not to do that. Hell, I'll play lazy from time to time and end up looking at the Respawn button. Not going to complain about it - it's my fault...they caught me with my pants down...good for them - they outplayed me.
capthachi just confirmed he can see them, of course, that's assuming Sensor Scan isn't cleared. If I remember correctly, when you activate Alpha Decoy console, your boff tray is momentarily greyed out, no? That means ST will not be functional either but I am not sure since it's been so long.
In any event, there is not much added value to have such high SDR. Alpha Decoy and QSM are highly situational powers, no sense in spec to deal with those other than just let them expire. The best way to deal with Alpha Decoy console remains preventing your target from using it (e.g. a tractor target can't activate Alpha Decoy console or when it's being hit by Antiproton Sweep).
capthachi just confirmed he can see them, of course, that's assuming Sensor Scan isn't cleared. If I remember correctly, when you activate Alpha Decoy console, your boff tray is momentarily greyed out, no? That means ST will not be functional either but I am not sure since it's been so long.
Nah, it's bugged - you've got a couple of seconds to do stuff before it greys it. Can do all sorts of things in that time.
In any event, there is not much added value to have such high SDR. Alpha Decoy and QSM are highly situational powers, no sense in spec to deal with those other than just let them expire. The best way to deal with Alpha Decoy console remains preventing your target from using it (e.g. a tractor target can't activate Alpha Decoy console or when it's being hit by Antiproton Sweep).
Thanks for validating that my theory is correct. When I played STO, I didn't do Premade so there was no value for me to test the above mentioned hypothesis. And I didn't know the OP was referring to you as the cloak hunter in his chat since no name was given and I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else by the term "2nd tier snooper", I take that back.
If you only play in Premade context, then the T'Varo model is not suitable because it doesn't maximize your cloak detection range that a true Fed Sci ship can. The T'Varo is designed to operate in Kerrat and only Kerrat as a stand alone snooping sniper.
Now, I am curious so if we can see them but can't flush them out, I wonder if an AOE ability such as Proton Barrage could damage them or if PSW can stun them out of the stealth...
yaman, generally taylor runs in the queues with either me or another tac doing the shooting, but he is almost infallible as a vaper counter. pretty much a mainstay to a premade group now considering most groups in the queues are using the following model
3 support (2 offhealers/harassers + 1 detector, either in 2/1 sci engy ratio or all sci)
2 tac (either 2 cloak vapers or 1 vaper + 1 high spike bug)
Generally speaking in order to counter teams like this you need a taylor kind of build with you or that vaper just has free reign throughout the match.
We were able to shut down the other tac and stay alive for the whole fight vs the rest of their team no problem, in fact were winning on that front. But the vaper proved to be the lynchpin as we had no hard counter to him. He got 12-13 of their kills virtually solo and was assist on the other 2-3.
(i was the primary healer in the fight for my team, he was hitting so hard and fast even with keybind directly to my teammates for clutch healing there was no saving them in many of the cases. he was pulling 60k+ crits regularly, virtually one shotting them)
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(i was the primary healer in the fight for my team, he was hitting so hard and fast even with keybind directly to my teammates for clutch healing there was no saving them in many of the cases. he was pulling 60k+ crits regularly, virtually one shotting them)
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yaman, generally taylor runs in the queues with either me or another tac doing the shooting, but he is almost infallible as a vaper counter. pretty much a mainstay to a premade group now considering most groups in the queues are using the following model
3 support (2 offhealers/harassers + 1 detector, either in 2/1 sci engy ratio or all sci)
2 tac (either 2 cloak vapers or 1 vaper + 1 high spike bug)
Generally speaking in order to counter teams like this you need a taylor kind of build with you or that vaper just has free reign throughout the match.
We were able to shut down the other tac and stay alive for the whole fight vs the rest of their team no problem, in fact were winning on that front. But the vaper proved to be the lynchpin as we had no hard counter to him. He got 12-13 of their kills virtually solo and was assist on the other 2-3.
(i was the primary healer in the fight for my team, he was hitting so hard and fast even with keybind directly to my teammates for clutch healing there was no saving them in many of the cases. he was pulling 60k+ crits regularly, virtually one shotting them)
I understand now, thanks for sharing. It looks like Premades have started to adapt TDF into the matches to counter the Rom Tact Vapers, that's why so many Klingons are crying in the PvP forum lately. Like I said, I didn't do Premades however this Fed Snooper Cultural Exchange has been interesting, I get to understand the perspective of snoopers in Fed Premades, which is very different to a Fed snooper in Kerrat. Although I have to say, just prior to quitting STO, I did build a Fed Snooper similar to what Premades would use in Arena queues because some Klink PvP fleets who couldn't make it in the queues decide to gank Fed farmers in Kerrat for fun. The build looks like this : Klink Buster
Active Space Doff (All Purple) : 1 X RSP doff, 1 X Gravimetric (GW) doff, 1 X Quartermaster for 100% Battery CD recharge, 3 X Technician doffs
I adjusted the build to reflect what a Premade would likely use by giving the ship mostly heal powers, acting like a back up healer / debuff support. It can disrupt cloakers in group using 3 different AOE powers : GW III + Aftershock, Antiproton Sweep (90 degree cone AOE), and Gravimetric Rift from the GW Photon Torp.
I understand now, thanks for sharing. It looks like Premades have started to adapt TDF into the matches to counter the Rom Tact Vapers, that's why so many Klingons are crying in the PvP forum lately. Like I said, I didn't do Premades however this Fed Snooper Cultural Exchange has been interesting, I get to understand the perspective of snoopers in Fed Premades, which is very different to a Fed snooper in Kerrat. Although I have to say, just prior to quitting STO, I did build a Fed Snooper similar to what Premades would use in Arena queues because some Klink PvP fleets who couldn't make it in the queues decide to gank Fed farmers in Kerrat for fun. The build looks like this : Klink Buster
Active Space Doff (All Purple) : 1 X RSP doff, 1 X Gravimetric (GW) doff, 1 X Quartermaster for 100% Battery CD recharge, 3 X Technician doffs
I adjusted the build to reflect what a Premade would likely use by giving the ship mostly heal powers, acting like a back up healer / debuff support.
Ker'rat is a whole different monster than the queues. Honestly ker'rat is a lot easier to hunt cloakers in. Things in arenas are so much faster paced you have to do detection sweeps on the go. Where in ker'rat you usually have time between vape attempts to set up more effective detection sweeps.
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It looks like Premades have started to adapt TDF into the matches to counter the Rom Tact Vapers, that's why so many Klingons are crying in the PvP forum lately. Like I said, I didn't do Premades...
Hate to bring it to you, snooping is being done in premades for longer then a year now, months before Legacy of Romulus hit the server, as a response for some premade strategies back then. Nothing new there, it was just kept under wraps.
And snooping in Kerrat... meh... I prefer snooping the **** out of premades, its way more difficult. Hence more rewarding.
Additional SDR from Steatlhsight Percentage Bonus = ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000
ItemBonus for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 0.25 (seems arbitrary, but it fits the numbers)
Item%Bonus is the +% StealthSight in the item description at 0 Sensors, which for Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XI is 1%
Incorporating that into the earlier formula for SDR, looks as follows:
SDR = (Base SDR + (Base SDR/100) * Sensors) * (1 + 0.02 * (Aux power - 50)) + (ItemBonus * Sensors + Item%Bonus * 10000)
Base SDR is 60 for science vessels, 20 otherwise
Anybody know what the ItemBonus numbers are for...
Tachyon Detection Grid
Tachyon Detection Field
Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XII
Romulan Advanced Prototype Deflector Mk XII
Hate to bring it to you, snooping is being done in premades for longer then a year now, months before Legacy of Romulus hit the server, as a response for some premade strategies back then. Nothing new there, it was just kept under wraps.
Perhaps, but with LoR and Rom/Reman boff +Stealth stacking, any premade effort to do snooping in queues were quickly abandoned. For a good 6 months, there was no effective counter to Romulan battlecloaking whether in Queues or in Kerrat.
Perhaps, but with LoR and Rom/Reman boff +Stealth stacking, any premade effort to do snooping in queues were quickly abandoned. For a good 6 months, there was no effective counter to Romulan battlecloaking whether in Queues or in Kerrat.
Not true. It was never abandoned. For a certain period it just got more difficult due to the boff stacking.
Anybody know what the ItemBonus numbers are for...
Tachyon Detection Grid
Tachyon Detection Field
Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XII
Romulan Advanced Prototype Deflector Mk XII
...by any chance?
No idea, even the in-game SDR number display is somewhat bugged so there is no way to really triangulate the missing variables using math. For example, we know EPTA adds a certain amount of + perception depending on the Level of the EPTA used and whether used by a Sci ship or a non-Sci ship. However, that number is not entirely reflected in the calculated SDR. We can infer the likely impact but not the exact number. Also when TDF is used in conjunction with TDG, the SDR displayed becomes a little funny. The displayed number would seem to suggest the two are mutually exclusive but in reality they aren't and the two consoles don't have shared CD of anykind. Therefore, the displayed SDR likely understate the actual SDR by quite a bit when a high level EPTA is used and when TDF and TDG are both active. So when you said there was no way a ship can reach 3600 SDR earlier, I am not sure. I go by 3000+ SDR in forum posts because that's my estimate - note the use of +sign besides the number because I am unable to tell you what the exact number is.
It would be best to go by the actual perception range that capthachi stated they were able to see (e.g. 28KM out given a certain Stealth level) because the mathematical formula on how it actually got there is really a black box. Though apparently, capthachi isn't using the Embassy Sensor Probes yet whereas my Nebula had all Embassy Mk XII Sci concosles, so his numbers may be understating the true capability of a full spec snooper still. But if he is already seeing cloaked ships at 28KM out, I don't think it will make much of a material difference at the end. Though I have to say vapers who get detected 28KM out without being hit by Sensor Scan must be doing something really wrong, that's why I am having a hard time buying the OP's story at face value.
Not true. It was never abandoned. For a certain period it just gut more difficult due to the doff stacking.
Several threads and posts from LoR period in this very forum would show otherwise. In fact, you could ask VD, there were a ton of calculations done back then and it was determined any dedicated snooper build back then in the queues was a waste of time.
the mathematical formula on how it actually got there is really a black box.
Um, the quote I did...is how it got there. It's just a case of needing the itembonus numbers for those particular pieces of gear. vonamicus had the Jem Mk XI, so he was able to figure the bonus out for it. I've not dropped the 200 Lobi for the Jem Mk XII, don't have any Fed toons to look at the TDG, never picked up the TDF, and I'm too lazy to hit Tribble up to check on the Rom Mk XII.
Match your numbers before using TDF to the formula. Trigger TDF. Note the number - work it back through the formula. Etc, etc, etc...
Several threads and posts from LoR period in this very forum would show otherwise. In fact, you could ask VD, there were a ton of calculations done back then and it was determined any dedicated snooper build back then in the queues was a waste of time.
There was a difference between how a Premade tackled snooping and taking a snooper into the queues to PUG.
Several threads and posts from LoR period in this very forum would show otherwise. In fact, you could ask VD, there were a ton of calculations done back then and it was determined any dedicated snooper build back then in the queues was a waste of time.
They don't show otherwise. VD is a smart guy, but he doesn't do premades. At best "calculations" showed that snooping became more difficult, but not impossible. No premade, who did snooping back then, abandoned it.
They don't show otherwise. VD is a smart guy, but he doesn't do premades. At best "calculations" showed that snooping became more difficult, but not impossible. No premade, who did snooping back then, abandoned it.
In the past, stheath detection was important, now with the romulan boffs that increase stealth, there is no point in spect your ship for detect them. The best u can do is use skills like gravity well for uncloack ships.
=> This is someone who played almost exclusively in premade Arena queues
EPtA III + Jem Hadar Deflector Mk XII + 9 points into Starship Sensor + Astrophysicist & Inspirational Leader traits + 130 Aux in a Sci vessel = end of Romulan Battlecloaks
Agree or Disagree?
A question I asked during the LoR period when Rom/Reman boff +stealth were stacking and here are the reactions that followed :
Cause somewhere along the line after they changed it not to in March, Subterfuge +Stealth started stacking again...no notes that it would, just that it did.
Disagree, subterfuge increase stealth values too much.
Anyway u don't need battlecloak when u can jump every 5 seconds with the singulairty. The romulans are so overpowered, that even without battecloak, they are still overpowered lol
I generally have to disagree that this is an effective strategy. I have a build that runs with 130 power to AUX, the astrophysicist trait, and six points in sensors. Once in a while I detect nearby ships, but rarely the Romulans. Occasionally, even when I hit a T'varo with sensor scan I still cannot detect it within 5 km. I suppose you could throw in the Nebula console, and that might just put you over the edge, but you are still not going to be able to detect most Romulan ships unless they are within a few km or you sensor scan them.
And, even with a sensor scan, you can always use a speed buff or science team to render it useless.
Given how much of a stealth buff even the larger Romulan ships have (I've had Sensor Scanned scimitars be able to effectively elude me within 5 km), I just do not think there is much hope for detection as an effective countermeasure in the current state of the game.
What is effective is a combination of powers that knock ships out of cloak, debuffs movement, and keeps ships from entering cloak. Unfortunately, most of these Romulan ships can tank very, very well out of cloak, so unless you use teamwork or build a ship entirely for fighting cloaking vessels, you need team work to keep them from re-entering battle cloak while your buffs are on cooldown.
Quick scan of these threads and responses clearly showed that back in the time of LoR after EPTA bug was fixed, the Romulan cloak were nearly impossible to break as shown by the various responses which were virtually unanimous. There wasn't a single premade who were able to tell us how they could circumvent that in their matches instead, all we could hear was they pretty much gave up trying because there wasn't anything remotely effective they could do as per the answers of several people who played exclusively premade arena in these threads. Clearly, it wasn't a question of Premade vs. Pug either - there was simply nothing to be done when Rommies were running 5600-5700 Stealth in their Battlecloaks.
But I enjoy the attempt at rewriting history except there is something called search button. Don't worry the Dev often did the same thing when trying to BS through the changes they made that are unpopular by claiming "STO history", only to have someone like mancom who went dig up patch notes from like 4 years ago to show it wasn't at all the case.
I was and still am very well aware of the threads regarding stealth and stealth detection back then.
Broadly speaking, sometimes the more intriguing aspects of threads is actually whats missing in these threads.
I found it fascinating really that people dismissed snooping in these threads when the boffs began to stack again...
Our fleet was working with multiple snooper builds back then. The boff stacking rendered our build less effective, but certainly not obsolete.
If if remember correctly (unfortunately i deleted my sheets when the boffs got fixed again), the stealth detection got reduced to the following numbers:
Build 1 -> ~7.5 km
Build 2 -> ~12 km
Build 3 -> ~14 km
When the boff issue got resolved, numbers were back to:
Build 1 -> ~12.5 km
Build 2 -> ~22 km
Build 3 -> ~26 km
Again, numbers might be off 1 or 2km since I didn't keep a copy of my old sheets when the numbers got obsolete.
It actually worked into our favour that major parts of the PvP community, including certain premades, dismissed stealth detection. We simply did not shout it from the rooftops, that's all. I suppose the pessimistic tone in these threads led to people underestimate stealth detection.
Those kind of remarks were especially noteworthy, because the reality was actually completly backwards. At least when playing our premade.
The other quotes you pulled from these threads only show that parts of the PvP community simply didn't know any better back then. It wasn't so much premades unable to tell, it was rather premades unwilling to tell. That's a difference, it's not the same.
In any thread on Stealth there are likely to be the folks saying there is nothing that can be done.
That first thread that was linked worked through the math to show that plenty can be done. The second thread basically showed the same thing...it did bring up the point of stacking again, but not because nothing could be done; rather simply because there had been no notes on the change.
It's like hus pointed out - you can still get within 0.5km or closer on some folks without them seeing you...makes no sense to me. And those folks will complain about Stealth. But it's not like they haven't had to deal with cloakers since LoR even in their FvF queues. Are they going to go into the queues without shields? No, cause they know folks will be shooting at them. So knowing that there's a damn good chance that there are cloakers there, why are they going in without taking that into consideration?
Maybe Cryptic needs to add Vapers to PvE, eh?
edit: And lol, even reading that now - I still think ivan was joking.
In any thread on Stealth there are likely to be the folks saying there is nothing that can be done.
True. To be honest, I do not understand nor do I have much sympathy for people entertaining such fatalistic attitudes.
Maybe the most important PVP lesson I've learned is this:
There was not one single strategy / playstyle that couldn't be countered somehow.
Vapers are yesterdays news. Maybe the upcoming season will make them more viable again, who knows. But as of now, they don't work against prepared folks.
So knowing that there's a damn good chance that there are cloakers there, why are they going in without taking that into consideration?
Probably because most people are simply not considerative enough. Some people don't want to "consider" stuff, they want to queue with their beloved ship and holy never-changing build, and they certainly do not appreciate getting man-handled by more viable builds.
I certainly understand that role playing aspects might be a cause for people clinging onto their very vulnerable builds.
You can't have both however: Either you drop the RP stuff, or you get used to loosing to PvP'ers who play more effective builds. You have to choose.
And lol, even reading that now - I still think ivan was joking.
Maybe he was joking, but there have been and still are vapers, and vaper-victims, who are stating similar things and are dead-serious about it.
PS: I remember, when these threads back then popped up, I was like, oh s*hit Virus gonna post now, he's gonna decipher our premade strategy, noooo don't do it, no take that back, omg you are ruining it!! xD At the end, it was allright though, vapers die, vapers cry.
Comments
A bit dishonest but thats OK. The KDF has multiple carriers yes but only one useful one for the most part the Karfi, the the Vo'quv the only ship in the game that universe turns around because its turn rate is awful oh and only, the gorn ones are weak. Lets see feds have a carrier carrier, a cruiser carrier, a escort carrier. Fed cruisers apam BFaW most KDF that fly cruisers are usually in Moghs, or the occassional bortas .
and lets not forget the ratio of fed to kdf... 1 BFAW kdf carriers in 100 Fed BFAW cruisers/carriers ya.. those KDF BFAW carriers sure have a huge impact.
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MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
You are forgetting that Sensor Scan can bring the Stealth down by 1K easily. Assuming the Alpha Decoy Console made the user having a 7K Stealth but the target was already affected by a well spec Sensor Scan, his Stealth could be at only 6K or slightly less. At that point, a full burst of TDF + TDG + EPTA could in theory cut through his stealth and detect the ship. I have never tested it though but in theory, it's possible.
What T5 Rommie plus regular cloak at the same time?
You're slacking you didn't mention HoBO at least 5 times in your last post.
Carriers using beams hardly do damage except for the Jem Dread, the other carriers doing it are probably not even running much weapon power, they are running shields and aux and just using beams for procs and leech.
You see the occasional Fleet Mogh running BFAW in kerrat but nothing compared to all the Fleet Avengers, Fleet Sovvy, Fleet Excelsiors, monbosh,Jem Dreads and galors I see feds using everywhere in kerrat spamming BFAW A2B and DEM nonstop.
It really shows how 1 sided and delusional you can get sometimes where not only are the KDF all evul vapers, but now we are the main BFAW spammers too :rolleyes:
I have. It is possible to see through the cloak provided from any console and Rom cloak. You can not bring them out like a normal cloak, but you can still see them.
-LindseyLohan - Under appreciated Rom Bug
-EmiliaClarke - Under construction engi recluse
Not forgetting anything - you have to hit them with the Scan for that to happen. Even with the Scan landing, with the changes to Teams - that's cleared.
Nebula with TDF, TDG, Scan, Jem/Rom Mk XII Deflector, Astrophysicist, 4x +31.9 Sensor consoles, 9 Sensors, isn't going to get you 3600+ SDR (that's after taking into consideration the Perception Range boost from EPtA3).
It would also be relatively pointless to go with that kind of build - because without heavy support, that's a dead ship waiting to happen.
There's just so many different ways to deal with vapers - unfortunately, most of them require paying some attention and folks tend not to do that. Hell, I'll play lazy from time to time and end up looking at the Respawn button. Not going to complain about it - it's my fault...they caught me with my pants down...good for them - they outplayed me.
You'd have to have hit them or caught them in the AoE of a Scan to be able to see them - or - they'd also have to be sporting massive Singularity Charge that's debuffing their Stealth Value (again, it's -400 at 5 pips - folks need to bleed Singularity in PvP...doesn't matter in PvE, but in PvP - it will get you killed).
Thanks for validating that my theory is correct. When I played STO, I didn't do Premade so there was no value for me to test the above mentioned hypothesis. And I didn't know the OP was referring to you as the cloak hunter in his chat since no name was given and I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else by the term "2nd tier snooper", I take that back.
If you only play in Premade context, then the T'Varo model is not suitable because it doesn't maximize your cloak detection range that a true Fed Sci ship can. The T'Varo is designed to operate in Kerrat and only Kerrat as a stand alone snooping sniper.
Now, I am curious so if we can see them but can't flush them out, I wonder if an AOE ability such as Proton Barrage could damage them or if PSW can stun them out of the stealth...
It's just a case of not being able to decloak them without popping the Lure or it expiring or QSM expiring...doesn't mean you can't obliterate them while they're cloaked if you're able to see them.
capthachi just confirmed he can see them, of course, that's assuming Sensor Scan isn't cleared. If I remember correctly, when you activate Alpha Decoy console, your boff tray is momentarily greyed out, no? That means ST will not be functional either but I am not sure since it's been so long.
In any event, there is not much added value to have such high SDR. Alpha Decoy and QSM are highly situational powers, no sense in spec to deal with those other than just let them expire. The best way to deal with Alpha Decoy console remains preventing your target from using it (e.g. a tractor target can't activate Alpha Decoy console or when it's being hit by Antiproton Sweep).
Nah, it's bugged - you've got a couple of seconds to do stuff before it greys it. Can do all sorts of things in that time.
Scramble and AMS also prevent its use.
yaman, generally taylor runs in the queues with either me or another tac doing the shooting, but he is almost infallible as a vaper counter. pretty much a mainstay to a premade group now considering most groups in the queues are using the following model
3 support (2 offhealers/harassers + 1 detector, either in 2/1 sci engy ratio or all sci)
2 tac (either 2 cloak vapers or 1 vaper + 1 high spike bug)
Generally speaking in order to counter teams like this you need a taylor kind of build with you or that vaper just has free reign throughout the match.
Here is a good example of a vaper run wild, we didnt have a dedicated detector http://hilbertguide.com/leaderboard/encounter.php?id=6961
We were able to shut down the other tac and stay alive for the whole fight vs the rest of their team no problem, in fact were winning on that front. But the vaper proved to be the lynchpin as we had no hard counter to him. He got 12-13 of their kills virtually solo and was assist on the other 2-3.
(i was the primary healer in the fight for my team, he was hitting so hard and fast even with keybind directly to my teammates for clutch healing there was no saving them in many of the cases. he was pulling 60k+ crits regularly, virtually one shotting them)
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
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Yoda is - and always will be - strong in the force.
I understand now, thanks for sharing. It looks like Premades have started to adapt TDF into the matches to counter the Rom Tact Vapers, that's why so many Klingons are crying in the PvP forum lately. Like I said, I didn't do Premades however this Fed Snooper Cultural Exchange has been interesting, I get to understand the perspective of snoopers in Fed Premades, which is very different to a Fed snooper in Kerrat. Although I have to say, just prior to quitting STO, I did build a Fed Snooper similar to what Premades would use in Arena queues because some Klink PvP fleets who couldn't make it in the queues decide to gank Fed farmers in Kerrat for fun. The build looks like this : Klink Buster
Active Space Doff (All Purple) : 1 X RSP doff, 1 X Gravimetric (GW) doff, 1 X Quartermaster for 100% Battery CD recharge, 3 X Technician doffs
I adjusted the build to reflect what a Premade would likely use by giving the ship mostly heal powers, acting like a back up healer / debuff support. It can disrupt cloakers in group using 3 different AOE powers : GW III + Aftershock, Antiproton Sweep (90 degree cone AOE), and Gravimetric Rift from the GW Photon Torp.
-LindseyLohan - Under appreciated Rom Bug
-EmiliaClarke - Under construction engi recluse
Hate to bring it to you, snooping is being done in premades for longer then a year now, months before Legacy of Romulus hit the server, as a response for some premade strategies back then. Nothing new there, it was just kept under wraps.
And snooping in Kerrat... meh... I prefer snooping the **** out of premades, its way more difficult. Hence more rewarding.
Anybody know what the ItemBonus numbers are for...
Tachyon Detection Grid
Tachyon Detection Field
Jem'Hadar Deflector Mk XII
Romulan Advanced Prototype Deflector Mk XII
...by any chance?
Perhaps, but with LoR and Rom/Reman boff +Stealth stacking, any premade effort to do snooping in queues were quickly abandoned. For a good 6 months, there was no effective counter to Romulan battlecloaking whether in Queues or in Kerrat.
Not true. It was never abandoned. For a certain period it just got more difficult due to the boff stacking.
No idea, even the in-game SDR number display is somewhat bugged so there is no way to really triangulate the missing variables using math. For example, we know EPTA adds a certain amount of + perception depending on the Level of the EPTA used and whether used by a Sci ship or a non-Sci ship. However, that number is not entirely reflected in the calculated SDR. We can infer the likely impact but not the exact number. Also when TDF is used in conjunction with TDG, the SDR displayed becomes a little funny. The displayed number would seem to suggest the two are mutually exclusive but in reality they aren't and the two consoles don't have shared CD of anykind. Therefore, the displayed SDR likely understate the actual SDR by quite a bit when a high level EPTA is used and when TDF and TDG are both active. So when you said there was no way a ship can reach 3600 SDR earlier, I am not sure. I go by 3000+ SDR in forum posts because that's my estimate - note the use of +sign besides the number because I am unable to tell you what the exact number is.
It would be best to go by the actual perception range that capthachi stated they were able to see (e.g. 28KM out given a certain Stealth level) because the mathematical formula on how it actually got there is really a black box. Though apparently, capthachi isn't using the Embassy Sensor Probes yet whereas my Nebula had all Embassy Mk XII Sci concosles, so his numbers may be understating the true capability of a full spec snooper still. But if he is already seeing cloaked ships at 28KM out, I don't think it will make much of a material difference at the end. Though I have to say vapers who get detected 28KM out without being hit by Sensor Scan must be doing something really wrong, that's why I am having a hard time buying the OP's story at face value.
Several threads and posts from LoR period in this very forum would show otherwise. In fact, you could ask VD, there were a ton of calculations done back then and it was determined any dedicated snooper build back then in the queues was a waste of time.
Um, the quote I did...is how it got there. It's just a case of needing the itembonus numbers for those particular pieces of gear. vonamicus had the Jem Mk XI, so he was able to figure the bonus out for it. I've not dropped the 200 Lobi for the Jem Mk XII, don't have any Fed toons to look at the TDG, never picked up the TDF, and I'm too lazy to hit Tribble up to check on the Rom Mk XII.
Match your numbers before using TDF to the formula. Trigger TDF. Note the number - work it back through the formula. Etc, etc, etc...
There was a difference between how a Premade tackled snooping and taking a snooper into the queues to PUG.
They don't show otherwise. VD is a smart guy, but he doesn't do premades. At best "calculations" showed that snooping became more difficult, but not impossible. No premade, who did snooping back then, abandoned it.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=823621&highlight=stealth+detection
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=843041&highlight=stealth+detection
=> This is someone who played almost exclusively in premade Arena queues
=> An honest although crude reply from a well known HOBO
A question I asked during the LoR period when Rom/Reman boff +stealth were stacking and here are the reactions that followed :
Quick scan of these threads and responses clearly showed that back in the time of LoR after EPTA bug was fixed, the Romulan cloak were nearly impossible to break as shown by the various responses which were virtually unanimous. There wasn't a single premade who were able to tell us how they could circumvent that in their matches instead, all we could hear was they pretty much gave up trying because there wasn't anything remotely effective they could do as per the answers of several people who played exclusively premade arena in these threads. Clearly, it wasn't a question of Premade vs. Pug either - there was simply nothing to be done when Rommies were running 5600-5700 Stealth in their Battlecloaks.
But I enjoy the attempt at rewriting history except there is something called search button. Don't worry the Dev often did the same thing when trying to BS through the changes they made that are unpopular by claiming "STO history", only to have someone like mancom who went dig up patch notes from like 4 years ago to show it wasn't at all the case.
Broadly speaking, sometimes the more intriguing aspects of threads is actually whats missing in these threads.
I found it fascinating really that people dismissed snooping in these threads when the boffs began to stack again...
Our fleet was working with multiple snooper builds back then. The boff stacking rendered our build less effective, but certainly not obsolete.
If if remember correctly (unfortunately i deleted my sheets when the boffs got fixed again), the stealth detection got reduced to the following numbers:
Build 1 -> ~7.5 km
Build 2 -> ~12 km
Build 3 -> ~14 km
When the boff issue got resolved, numbers were back to:
Build 1 -> ~12.5 km
Build 2 -> ~22 km
Build 3 -> ~26 km
Again, numbers might be off 1 or 2km since I didn't keep a copy of my old sheets when the numbers got obsolete.
It actually worked into our favour that major parts of the PvP community, including certain premades, dismissed stealth detection. We simply did not shout it from the rooftops, that's all. I suppose the pessimistic tone in these threads led to people underestimate stealth detection.
Those kind of remarks were especially noteworthy, because the reality was actually completly backwards. At least when playing our premade.
The other quotes you pulled from these threads only show that parts of the PvP community simply didn't know any better back then. It wasn't so much premades unable to tell, it was rather premades unwilling to tell. That's a difference, it's not the same.
That first thread that was linked worked through the math to show that plenty can be done. The second thread basically showed the same thing...it did bring up the point of stacking again, but not because nothing could be done; rather simply because there had been no notes on the change.
It's like hus pointed out - you can still get within 0.5km or closer on some folks without them seeing you...makes no sense to me. And those folks will complain about Stealth. But it's not like they haven't had to deal with cloakers since LoR even in their FvF queues. Are they going to go into the queues without shields? No, cause they know folks will be shooting at them. So knowing that there's a damn good chance that there are cloakers there, why are they going in without taking that into consideration?
Maybe Cryptic needs to add Vapers to PvE, eh?
edit: And lol, even reading that now - I still think ivan was joking.
Maybe the most important PVP lesson I've learned is this:
There was not one single strategy / playstyle that couldn't be countered somehow.
Vapers are yesterdays news. Maybe the upcoming season will make them more viable again, who knows. But as of now, they don't work against prepared folks.
Probably because most people are simply not considerative enough. Some people don't want to "consider" stuff, they want to queue with their beloved ship and holy never-changing build, and they certainly do not appreciate getting man-handled by more viable builds.
I certainly understand that role playing aspects might be a cause for people clinging onto their very vulnerable builds.
You can't have both however: Either you drop the RP stuff, or you get used to loosing to PvP'ers who play more effective builds. You have to choose.
Maybe he was joking, but there have been and still are vapers, and vaper-victims, who are stating similar things and are dead-serious about it.
PS: I remember, when these threads back then popped up, I was like, oh s*hit Virus gonna post now, he's gonna decipher our premade strategy, noooo don't do it, no take that back, omg you are ruining it!! xD At the end, it was allright though, vapers die, vapers cry.
Caprimul w/ Reman Sci
S.Traits - Accurate, Astrophysicist, Conservation of Energy, Elusive, Infiltrator, Intimidating Strikes, Photonic Capacitor, Reman, Techie
R.Traits (Passives)
T2 Omega - Omega Weapon Training
T2 New Rom - Precision
T4 Nukara - Auxiliary Power Configuration - Defense
T4 Counter - Nanoprobe Field Generator
R.Traits (Active)
T5 New Rom - Quantum Singularity Manipulation
T5 Nukara - Refracting Tetryon Cascade
T5 Counter - Bio-Molecular Shield Generator
TT1, TS2, APO1, (DPB3)
TT1
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtA1, RSP1
ST1, HE2, VM1, (GW3)
(5x Sub/Sup Op)
DOFFs - 3x DCE(EPtX), SE(VM+Replay), WCE(Cleanse), PWO(Torp)
Deflector - Romulan Mk XII
Secondary - Solanae
Impulse - AKHG Mk XII
Core - Dyson Mk XII
Shields - AKHG Mk XII
Weapons
Fore - (Solanae Proton DHC), Grav Photon Torp, E-BM Photon Torp, Disrupting Photon Torp Mk XI
Aft - 2x BM Photon Torp Mk XII [Acc]x2, BM Photon Mine Mk XII [CrtD][CrtH]
Consoles
Tac - 2x ATVE Mk XII [+PhP], Proton Stabilizer
Eng - Hydrodynamics, E-Neut Mk XII [+Turn]
Sci - Bioneural Infusion, Shield Inversion, Rom Sensors Mk XII [-Th][ShH], 2x Rom Sensors Mk XII [-Th][HuH]
Devices - SFM, Aux Batt, Eng Batt (RMC if one has it)
Other - Nimbus Pirate Distress Call