Because unless one is willing to accept the Federation as an even more perfect utopia with totally infallible people than Roddenberry's Season 1 TNG tried to show it as, is totally evul.
It's funny how people keep beating us over the head that the important message of Trek is that people have a choice...unless people like Sisko and Janeway (in the pilot fo example) make a bad choice. Then they bend over backwards insisting they had no choice and this was the only thing they could do and it should not be questioned.
And everyone who does not agree with this is an idiot.
What you just described is a dystopia, whether George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, or any number of other "perfect" societies that lack that one critical factor the absense of which causes paradise to become purgatory or worse. Makes Michael Eddington's comments to Sisko about the Federadtion being worse than the Borg all the more pointed.
Terrans from the Mirror actually; though some Terrans in the Prime universe (albeit very few) fit this description.
Ah, well, I can't say I agree with that assesment then.
The MU Terrans are pure TRIBBLE, just like the entire MU that was spawned out of writer's blocks and lack of creativity. The regular Klingons are nothing like that, IMHO.
What you just described is a dystopia, whether George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, or any number of other "perfect" societies that lack that one critical factor the absense of which causes paradise to become purgatory or worse. Makes Michael Eddington's comments to Sisko about the Federadtion being worse than the Borg all the more pointed.
After rereading my own post I should clarify.
I put one too many "they" in there which probably makes my post ambigious at one critical point and thus more harsh than intended.
I wrote
"Because unless one is willing to accept the Federation as an even more perfect utopia with totally infallible people than Roddenberry's Season 1 TNG tried to show it as, is totally evul.
It's funny how people keep beating us over the head that the important message of Trek is that people have a choice...unless people like Sisko and Janeway (in the pilot fo example) make a bad choice. Then they bend over backwards insisting they had no choice and this was the only thing they could do and it should not be questioned.
And everyone who does not agree with this is an idiot."
That one there in red was intended to apply to Janeway and Sisko (and thus the characters in the show). It wasn intended to apply to people defending them in debates as people who had no choice even if the characters in shows tell us the exact opposite.
My apologies.
However there's another example from the shows I thought about yesterday: the TNG episode "Suddenly Human" which shows an even more disturbing attitude.
Appearently every human must want to live in the Federation. And who doesn't must be brainwashed and have Stockholm Syndrome.
"We are the tolerant and diverse Federation. You must want to live in the way our tolerant and diverse culture dictates. Wha...? No? Then there's only one explanation: there's something seriously wrong with you!"
While I understand that Beverly does a physical on the boy I don't really understand that she jumps to the conclusion he was tortured or whatever. We know people in the Federation injure themselves during sports. Riker's imaginary son hurt himself playing "Parrises squares" (whatever the heck that is) so did Riker as a child.
Or how about this from "Timescape":
"Stop playing parrises squares as if you're 21!"
"One day, you'll break your neck, and I won't be able to heal that as easily."
That once again Beverly.
Riker also fought against his father "Anbo-jyutsu" which was also portrayed as dangerous.
People hurt themselves on the holodeck too (O'Brien seemed to be kinda accident prone).
But it seems the only good injuries are the ones sustained in the Federation...?
A lot of this comes from the stereotypical depiction of the Klingons on screen.
The stories were nearly always depicted from the Federation's point of view, where all the'd ever encounter were aggressive opponents.
And while Worf certainly developed into a more complex character over time with glimpses behind the warrior facade, he also idolized that image, though in a more positive light.
The reality is, that Klingon warriors can be downright nasty and almost never represent the ideal of the noble warrior poet.
It took DS9 and several almost exclusively Klingon focused episodes to see that they are also reasonable, intelligent people kind of forced to adhere to social dogma.
They believe in that honor stuff, but almost no one lives, or can live up to it.
There are Klingons who are outright not warriors, but scientists, diplomats, judges, engineers, doctors, etc.
Those are carrers followed rarely by the noble house leaders, because that'S not where the glory is perceived, but necessary and valid career choices for the common folks.
careers where they might never gain as much popularity as the, most of the time quite corrupted, leaders of the empire, but can flourish and excell at.
Regular klingon soldiers however are to be pitied.
They more often than not end up as cannon fodder or lose a fight against almost mortally wounded Bajoran petite women and such.
They usually buy into the story of dying gloriously young to secure a place in the warrior halls of sto'vo'kor.
Of course the Klingons come off as aggressive towards Federation characters for most of the franchise... technically, the Klingons & Federation have either been at war or in a confrontational "Cold War" state of relations. The whole TNG era alliance is a relatively recent thing in the timeline between both major powers. Even then, the alliance was broken with a period of hostilities (canon-wise). Kirk lived through the most dangerous parts between the Klingons & Federation. And his life wasn't any easier when his reputation grew even among his Klingon adversaries, where the prospect of any captain being able to defeat a warrior such as Kirk would garner much fame and honor :cool:
After rereading my own post I should clarify.
I put one too many "they" in there which probably makes my post ambigious at one critical point and thus more harsh than intended.
I wrote
"Because unless one is willing to accept the Federation as an even more perfect utopia with totally infallible people than Roddenberry's Season 1 TNG tried to show it as, is totally evul.
It's funny how people keep beating us over the head that the important message of Trek is that people have a choice...unless people like Sisko and Janeway (in the pilot fo example) make a bad choice. Then they bend over backwards insisting they had no choice and this was the only thing they could do and it should not be questioned.
And everyone who does not agree with this is an idiot."
That one there in red was intended to apply to Janeway and Sisko (and thus the characters in the show). It wasn intended to apply to people defending them in debates as people who had no choice even if the characters in shows tell us the exact opposite.
My apologies.
However there's another example from the shows I thought about yesterday: the TNG episode "Suddenly Human" which shows an even more disturbing attitude.
Appearently every human must want to live in the Federation. And who doesn't must be brainwashed and have Stockholm Syndrome.
"We are the tolerant and diverse Federation. You must want to live in the way our tolerant and diverse culture dictates. Wha...? No? Then there's only one explanation: there's something seriously wrong with you!"
While I understand that Beverly does a physical on the boy I don't really understand that she jumps to the conclusion he was tortured or whatever. We know people in the Federation injure themselves during sports. Riker's imaginary son hurt himself playing "Parrises squares" (whatever the heck that is) so did Riker as a child.
Or how about this from "Timescape":
"Stop playing parrises squares as if you're 21!"
"One day, you'll break your neck, and I won't be able to heal that as easily."
That once again Beverly.
Riker also fought against his father "Anbo-jyutsu" which was also portrayed as dangerous.
People hurt themselves on the holodeck too (O'Brien seemed to be kinda accident prone).
But it seems the only good injuries are the ones sustained in the Federation...?
No need to apologize. Even if you did not intend to be so harsh, it is still an accurate assessment. The truth often hurts. I was just pointing out how from a different viewpoint and world experience, the utopia of Gene Roddenberry's season 1 TNG could be considered stifling and oppressive. And THAT contrast is what makes the Maquis cause suddenly seem less as a terrorist movement and more of a liberation cause.
No need to apologize. Even if you did not intend to be so harsh, it is still an accurate assessment. The truth often hurts. I was just pointing out how from a different viewpoint and world experience, the utopia of Gene Roddenberry's season 1 TNG could be considered stifling and oppressive. And THAT contrast is what makes the Maquis cause suddenly seem less as a terrorist movement and more of a liberation cause.
The Maquis stories are really good examples of where the Federation and Starfleet falls down. Not that I would condone the terrorist tactics that they (Maquis) eventually resorted to, but they weren't free to organize themselves into an independent or semi-independent state counter to Cardassian rule and their fate was decided without representation. The Feds just declared them to be illegal colonies and gave those systems up to pursue their own agenda.
If those had been Klingon colonies, the Empire would've dared the Cardies to try to occupy them.
If anyone disagrees with Federation policies and politics, the leadership is no more tolerant of the dissension of the minority than the Dominion is.
How many times were Picard or Sisko basically told to shut up and follow orders? And not just where the Maquis were concerned.
Whereas in the Empire, dissent or challenge is a fact of life and they have social mechanics to deal with that. You have the right to dissent if you're a good enough warrior to back it up. If your leader is incompetent, you have the right to assume his position if you can kill him for it (and survive reprisals from loyalists). A Klingon simply does not follow orders unquestionably... but wouldn't question them in the same way that a human Starfleet officer might.
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The Maquis stories are really good examples of where the Federation and Starfleet falls down. Not that I would condone the terrorist tactics that they (Maquis) eventually resorted to, but they weren't free to organize themselves into an independent or semi-independent state counter to Cardassian rule and their fate was decided without representation. The Feds just declared them to be illegal colonies and gave those systems up to pursue their own agenda.
If those had been Klingon colonies, the Empire would've dared the Cardies to try to occupy them.
If anyone disagrees with Federation policies and politics, the leadership is no more tolerant of the dissension of the minority than the Dominion is.
How many times were Picard or Sisko basically told to shut up and follow orders? And not just where the Maquis were concerned.
Whereas in the Empire, dissent or challenge is a fact of life and they have social mechanics to deal with that. You have the right to dissent if you're a good enough warrior to back it up. If your leader is incompetent, you have the right to assume his position if you can kill him for it (and survive reprisals from loyalists). A Klingon simply does not follow orders unquestionably... but wouldn't question them in the same way that a human Starfleet officer might.
But you also forget the fact, The federation is a multi-species organization, that is not homogeneous as the Klingon empire. Their worlds and their officers don't always get along. And as was stated in the Andorian comic, each off their individual worlds would be easy pickings for the larger empires out there.
So yes the federation is very careful on what it fights over. The Klingons are willing to pick a fight with anyone for any reason. The Klingons and Rom's went from a strategic alliance to Hated blood enemies, they Helped drive the Cardassian union into the arms of the Dominion.
And in the Novels they are primarily the reason the Gorn joined the Typhon pact. Yes Star Fleet is a Military you have to sometimes shut up and follow orders, because your state is in a no win scenario the individual might not see, that the higher ups do.
Klingons have the characteristics that Humans strive for: Honor, Loyalty, Courage, etc., but they are also astute politicians in their society. They are also simple in their appetites, brash, etc., but they keep their promises. However, they have bad apples just like any other species. But in the end all those bad apples would give their lives to protect the Empire against any specie that threatens their territory no matter how powerful they are. They all dream for a glorious death in battle. More like the American Indians ("it is a good day to die") but far from the Vikings who were simply raiders and would kill even unarmed ordinary people for loot and slaves.
"The Iconians!................." "Let them come and we will destroy them".
Your depictions of the Vikings are very stereotypical. When you think of Vikings, don't think solely of pillaging raiding parties. The Vikings were excellent sailors who reached the Americas and the Orient, founded colonies and they also were sophisticated merchants. Like every other society they had warriors as well as merchants as well as farmers as well as diplomats as well as scholars ...
Just like the Klingons.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Looking on the klingons from the outside and judging them.
Aggressive, belligerent, and quick to take offense. Some rather foolish or short sighted.
Now look at what they have. An interstellar empire, advanced technology that includes energy weapons, star ships, transporters, and energy shielding. They did not just steal all this. They build and maintain it as well. They focus foremost on military applications and are very focused in general.
One assumes that all klingons aspire to be warriors and that anything else is a failure. . I disagree.
They would not advance with that mindset, they can't enslave their workers and scientists either. So there has to be a degree of honour to those positions as well.
Look at the Mogh. When it slipped it's moorings there were cheers. When it performed its first kill, it was an honouor for the captain, the entire crew, the engneers at the shipyard that built her, and the designers that envisioned her. All of them shared the honour, because without one component they all failed. But all we see directly is the captain and gunners. So all it is, is warriors. To those that do not look at the big picture.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I tend to like the interpretation that it's mostly just the nobles who are crazy fight-happy drunken idiots.
This is based in large part on Martok. Sure, once the fight starts, he enjoys it as much as the next Klingon, but he doesn't go out of his way to seek them out. He acts more like a professional soldier. And his backstory per "Once More Unto the Breach" is that he was born a commoner and wasn't initially allowed to become an officer because the blue-blooded Kor had him blacklisted for his low birth. Despite this, he managed to get a field commission and then fought his way to flag rank and eventually the chancellorship.
Evidence suggests that, like Kor, most of the Klingon officer corps are nobles, with the grunts (who, as with Starfleet, we rarely see) drawn from common stock.
Also, the Klingons tend to operate on a spectrum. To use the Bortasqu' command crew as an example, on the one end you have Hark of the House of J'mpok. He's a straight, I would even say stereotypical, Klingon, a glory hound implied to have his eye on Captain Koren's job. On the other end, you have Tarol, the chief engineer, whose idea of "honor" is more along the lines of what a Starfleet officer might call a sense of professionalism (i.e. she finds honor in doing her job well, regardless of whether anyone praises her for it). The rest of the Klingons on the bridge are somewhere in between.
Meanwhile, in my current Foundry project, I'm writing a Klingon bar bouncer whose parents are a farmer and an accountant respectively (because I like turning stereotypes upside-down).
I have a job, I do it well, and I don't cause undue trouble unless someone else causes it first.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Ther ones we see the most are the warriors and base our judgments from them
Klingon farmers out performed Federation advanced technology to take away a planet in A development contest from the Organians for control of the planet
klingon Fleet Admirals were called Thought Admirals and controled the massive klingon fleets and wars...............but in most cases were not warriors
The scientfic caste looked upon science as a war as well stopping at nothing to achieve there goal
The 2 part FASA role playing game books the Klingons goes a lot deeper into this ....good readng
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
What about Starfleet and UFP? DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight" showed us their true colors, and they are beyond pale. This was akin to the Reichstag fire started by Hitler. It wasn't just Sisko either. Bashir and Dax were in on it too. All of them were Starfleet officers. How much other tricking does Starfleet do? Then there is Section 31.
Starfleet claims to be "not a military organization", yet Star Trek VI showed us that Starfleet has a JAG Corps. Meanwhile, Starfleet expands its military outposts and border patrols closer to other factions.
A few things to note.
First of all, Starfleet "not being a military organization," aside from IMO being rather nonsensical (unless there is in fact a separate Federation military branch) and frankly delusional as to the reality of the rest of the universe, was strongly suggested to have become true only after Star Trek VI. The dialog pointed towards it essentially becoming largely demilitarized in whole or in part when the Klingons stood down. Never mind that the Klingons were not the Federation's only opposition at the time.
Starfleet's actual level of militarization seems to actually vary a great deal. Aside from episodes penned or heavily influenced by Roddenberry, we typically find that the militarization is approximately what the episode requires of it. I find that the JAG, however, is not the best direct evidence of Starfleet being militarized or not. "Modern" Starfleet fairly clearly descended from a military history (consistent with things such as the strong Earth-oriented naval tradition), so an internal judicial system dubbed the JAG is not a huge stretch, no matter what the current situation is. I would say similar trappings, as well as similar nomenclature, would have essentially the same effect all around.
Section 31 is a bit of an odd duck, and Roddenberry would blanch at it, especially since so many fans do not seem to be swallowing his moralizing and think Section 31 does what needs to be done to keep the Federation in existence. That said, Starfleet officers seem to rail against it pretty heavily. As such, while part of the Federation, it is often looked at as an internal villain taking the "easy way" out, and although they seem to manipulate Bashir into doing what they want them to, they do gain a bit of a victory over them in capturing Sloan and essentially getting him killed while obtaining the cure for Odo. I would say further that "In the Pale Moonlight" is another piece of evidence that Starfleet is as military as the story needs them to be - and at that point saying "oh and the Romulans jump on board too" would have been a lot less interesting. It is also another piece of evidence that parts of the fiction that Roddenberry did not so heavily influence are, frankly, closer to common sense.
All things considered, as someone who generally orients himself around Starfleet (with a pretty heavily-edited head canon) I for one am glad that in many episodes we see evidence of a Starfleet willing to get its hands dirty and do what needs to be done, and wish we'd see more of it. Heroes that are more concerned with how they admire themselves in the mirror for their morality while thousands die for their ethical vanity aren't heroes at all, and these are the heroes that we so often find in fiction.
(...) especially since so many fans do not seem to be swallowing his moralizing and think Section 31 does what needs to be done to keep the Federation in existence. (...)
All things considered, as someone who generally orients himself around Starfleet (with a pretty heavily-edited head canon) I for one am glad that in many episodes we see evidence of a Starfleet willing to get its hands dirty and do what needs to be done, and wish we'd see more of it. Heroes that are more concerned with how they admire themselves in the mirror for their morality while thousands die for their ethical vanity aren't heroes at all, and these are the heroes that we so often find in fiction.
This shows how the general zeitgeist changed between the incarnation of the shows, out-of-universe. Today, in the society most younger part of the audience grows up, we have tv shows about heroic agents that torture to gain information in order to save the day (or rather save the united states of america ). Section 31 is supposed to be a villian, basically. Starfleet is supposed to represent the best in what a paramilitary peacekeeping organization can be while Section 31 represents the quasi-fascist, "homeland security"-esque secret police. While I'm sure Rodenberry wouldn't have envisioned such a entity in the first place it worries me to a certain degree that so many people blindly accept the "we do what needs to be done" mantra. Fear and xenophobia have become such an integral part of our western society and the utopian tone of TNG which promoted a powerful, yet peaceful Starfleet and UFP is frowned upon as nonsensical. A less militarized body is considered a weak, foolish joke while big guns and determination will grant "us" victory against "them".
It saddens me, if I'm honest.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
This shows how the general zeitgeist changed between the incarnation of the shows, out-of-universe. Today, in the society most younger part of the audience grows up, we have tv shows about heroic agents that torture to gain information in order to save the day (or rather save the united states of america ). Section 31 is supposed to be a villian, basically. Starfleet is supposed to represent the best in what a paramilitary peacekeeping organization can be while Section 31 represents the quasi-fascist, "homeland security"-esque secret police. While I'm sure Rodenberry wouldn't have envisioned such a entity in the first place it worries me to a certain degree that so many people blindly accept the "we do what needs to be done" mantra. Fear and xenophobia have become such an integral part of our western society and the utopian tone of TNG which promoted a powerful, yet peaceful Starfleet and UFP is frowned upon as nonsensical. A less militarized body is considered a weak, foolish joke while big guns and determination will grant "us" victory against "them".
It saddens me, if I'm honest.
Interestingly enough it's more of a "zeitgeist cycle".
J. Michael Straczynski's (JMS') "Babylon 5" showed us a police-state Earth Alliance where bad thoughts were grounds enough to have poeple arrested for sedition.
There it was okay to have people disappear and be tortured and interrogated without legal representation.
He was cirticized for this since some people regarded it as a veiled attack on the Bush administration. Those pople did not take into account that this was impossible since B5 ended years before Bush became president.
Actually JMS thought about McCarthyism (and of course "1984") when he wrote it.
So it seems to be some kind of cycle that comes and goes for a while.
It scares me a lot, especially when you read stuff like this:
since it's pretty close to JMS' vision of the future.
With McCarthyism it was the communists and traitors.
With B5 it were disloyal people and alien collaborators.
Today it's terrorists and everyone who's not suporting "the right ideals" enough "wants them to win".
Section 31 is similar in too many ways to count and it's indeed saddening that their methods are seen as necessary today.:(
I don't know how this ties up with the actual show (haven't seen those episodes), but in the game (IIRC) and especially in fanfics and RPs, another side of Section 31 is that it often turns out that in fact they're not acting "for the good of the Federation" at all... they're so secret, with even Starfleet not told exactly what they're doing for security's sake, that if rogue agents (or even a whole rogue department) turn to crime or just do something crazy, it'll be months or years before even the government finds out, because it's a secret! That, of course, is the other problem with real-life secret services.
I agree with Angrytarg. Sometimes military power, and the reputation of having military power, will keep you safe - but it also antagonises your neighbours. (Like Iran did, for instance.) So there's a balance to be struck. I had this idea for an alien civilisation that revolved around that idea - basing their strategy on arranging that nobody wants to kill them because they're either friends or indispensable in some way, with actual fighting capacity an afterthought in much the same way that defusing conflicts currently is for us. (Largely inspired by the ideas coming out of SGR, only fun.) But I haven't a plot, so it didn't happen.
I don't know how this ties up with the actual show (haven't seen those episodes), but in the game (IIRC) and especially in fanfics and RPs, another side of Section 31 is that it often turns out that in fact they're not acting "for the good of the Federation" at all... they're so secret, with even Starfleet not told exactly what they're doing for security's sake, that if rogue agents (or even a whole rogue department) turn to crime or just do something crazy, it'll be months or years before even the government finds out, because it's a secret! That, of course, is the other problem with real-life secret services. (...)
If I remember correctly (I really don't like that secret agent stuff ) Section 31 is indeed nothing official. Starfleet and the Federation have no real way of interacting with it, it's like a rogue agency and probably even counteracted by Starfleet intelligence. They are really more of a "private" gestapo than anything official. But S31 would derail that thread, you are right
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Section 31 as shown for the shows is the catch all of the rogue Starfleet officers doing things "for the Federation".
Riker's captain(admiral) that developed the phase cloak.
Dougherty going to transplant/kill a population to strip mine their home.
Admiral mentioned for DS9 where all this finally gets a name.
In canon they are doing the things the ideal of the Federation won't. They willingly cross the line in the sand that the Federation uses to say who they are.
Sadly, as I have said in other threads, in game they seem more Starfleet than some of the admirals you take orders from. (T'nae.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
T'nae is probably a disguised Romulan, nobody hates one lot of Romulans more than the other lot of Romulans.
Back to Klingons: I tend to go by what Commander Kor remarked at the end of "Errand of Mercy" (in a rather obvious comment on the Russians, OOC) - that governments and cultures come and go, but when you take all that out of the equation, Klingons are basically a lot like Humans, what you see is just the result of different times and fashions. The various redesigns actually make sense on that basis, in the same way that the Elizabethans behaved quite a lot differently from the Victorians. The 23rd-century Empire was a sophisticated but ruthless totalitarian state; the 24th-century Empire was all about honour and courage, to the point of just a bit silly sometimes; and in the 25th century as shown in STO there seems to be a rather annoying fashion for playing at Vikings.
This shows how the general zeitgeist changed between the incarnation of the shows, out-of-universe. Today, in the society most younger part of the audience grows up, we have tv shows about heroic agents that torture to gain information in order to save the day (or rather save the united states of america ). Section 31 is supposed to be a villian, basically. Starfleet is supposed to represent the best in what a paramilitary peacekeeping organization can be while Section 31 represents the quasi-fascist, "homeland security"-esque secret police. While I'm sure Rodenberry wouldn't have envisioned such a entity in the first place it worries me to a certain degree that so many people blindly accept the "we do what needs to be done" mantra. Fear and xenophobia have become such an integral part of our western society and the utopian tone of TNG which promoted a powerful, yet peaceful Starfleet and UFP is frowned upon as nonsensical. A less militarized body is considered a weak, foolish joke while big guns and determination will grant "us" victory against "them".
It saddens me, if I'm honest.
Actually, I've ALWAYS thought this, into the 90's.
That said, I think you're overstating what I said. The problem does not lie in the fact that they don't grab every Romulan they find and beat the secrets out of them before summarily executing them, nor is it that they don't pat down everyone with funny ears and/or antennae before boarding a shuttle. The problem, IMO, is when things are taken too far in an attempt to push some sort of "message" into the story, and when the characters do a lot of blatantly stupid things in the name of principle. And often enough someone who is not a main character dies because of it.
This sort of mentality can also be seen in some rather single-minded interpretations of the Prime Directive - principle above all, even millions of lives. While there are cases wherein the Federation probably should not interfere, e.g. internal disputes on underdeveloped worlds, there are cases such as natural disasters wherein the Federation SHOULD interfere, but usually don't, even if the population is utterly helpless. A world will not have "natural development" if it starts sprouting volcanoes under their mud huts, unless "natural development" includes "world devoid of life." In such a situation, one should not be patting themselves on the back over how principled one is. I'd bet that if you asked random people today if abandoning such helpless people, even if they don't have warp drive, was right, you would get an emphatic "no." While you may be dismayed at people turning away from idealistic heroes, I for one would shudder at a world that thought they were morally superior or correct in abandoning the helpless to such a fate. Even the Federation has an extremely hard time swallowing it, at least when they have to pull the trigger. Recall the episodes with Data and the alien child he contacted via subspace. He was about to turn it off and abandon her and her world on Picard's orders, until Picard had the misfortune of hearing that the voice on the other end was a child who was terrified, alone, and without help almost certain to die horribly. A real person who can do great things and who can suffer just as greatly, not a faceless number in a philosophy textbook.
Now, in terms of more direct combat situations, a lot of the time the Federation does pretty blatantly stupid things. As said, sitting there and hailing the opponent while they strip the shields left and right. If Picard needs Deanna Troi to tell him she "senses hostility" when an enemy ship is dumping their weapons on you, then he needs to get his head examined to see if Irumodic Syndrome kicked in. It's time to fight back, even if you only intend to disable their weapons and engines. I think "Pale Moonlight" actually hit the right balance of this. The situation was rare, and it was desperate. It was not something undertaken lightly. Sisko did it. And he will regret it every day for the rest of his life. But it was done, and it had to be done, and he knew it. He'd rather swallow his conscience now than have to sit down at the negotiation table with the Dominion and work out the timetable for the Federation's surrender and annexation. It's even more potent when one realizes that they were saving the Romulans, as well, in the long-term - it would be foolish to assume that they wouldn't turn on the Romulans as soon as they'd managed to win against the Federation and rebuild their forces.
Simple fact of the matter is, the entire universe is not as "advanced" as the Federation, or at least humans, and will come to kill you and take your stuff if you let them. If you want to produce rich stories rather than straw men for allegory, the fact that there are always wolves out there is something that has to be dealt with. I do not consider alienating the human survival instinct as an "advancement," myself - they're selecting against themselves in the gene pool. But survival does not need to be a bloodbath or devolve into raw sadism, and neither does common sense - but it does involve getting your hands dirty now and again.
Ther ones we see the most are the warriors and base our judgments from them
Klingon farmers out performed Federation advanced technology to take away a planet in A development contest from the Organians for control of the planet
klingon Fleet Admirals were called Thought Admirals and controled the massive klingon fleets and wars...............but in most cases were not warriors
The scientfic caste looked upon science as a war as well stopping at nothing to achieve there goal
The 2 part FASA role playing game books the Klingons goes a lot deeper into this ....good readng
it would be foolish to assume that they wouldn't turn on the Romulans as soon as they'd managed to win against the Federation and rebuild their forces.
Well assuming the Romulans weren't planning to build a fleet of Scimitar-class Warbirds and fry the entire Dominion with Thalaron radiation.
Comments
What Terrans are you talking about?
What you just described is a dystopia, whether George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, or any number of other "perfect" societies that lack that one critical factor the absense of which causes paradise to become purgatory or worse. Makes Michael Eddington's comments to Sisko about the Federadtion being worse than the Borg all the more pointed.
Humans. Although, I wonder if some people on the forums are ETs.....
Terrans from the Mirror actually; though some Terrans in the Prime universe (albeit very few) fit this description.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
Ah, well, I can't say I agree with that assesment then.
The MU Terrans are pure TRIBBLE, just like the entire MU that was spawned out of writer's blocks and lack of creativity. The regular Klingons are nothing like that, IMHO.
After rereading my own post I should clarify.
I put one too many "they" in there which probably makes my post ambigious at one critical point and thus more harsh than intended.
I wrote
"Because unless one is willing to accept the Federation as an even more perfect utopia with totally infallible people than Roddenberry's Season 1 TNG tried to show it as, is totally evul.
It's funny how people keep beating us over the head that the important message of Trek is that people have a choice...unless people like Sisko and Janeway (in the pilot fo example) make a bad choice. Then they bend over backwards insisting they had no choice and this was the only thing they could do and it should not be questioned.
And everyone who does not agree with this is an idiot."
That one there in red was intended to apply to Janeway and Sisko (and thus the characters in the show). It wasn intended to apply to people defending them in debates as people who had no choice even if the characters in shows tell us the exact opposite.
My apologies.
However there's another example from the shows I thought about yesterday: the TNG episode "Suddenly Human" which shows an even more disturbing attitude.
Appearently every human must want to live in the Federation. And who doesn't must be brainwashed and have Stockholm Syndrome.
"We are the tolerant and diverse Federation. You must want to live in the way our tolerant and diverse culture dictates. Wha...? No? Then there's only one explanation: there's something seriously wrong with you!"
While I understand that Beverly does a physical on the boy I don't really understand that she jumps to the conclusion he was tortured or whatever. We know people in the Federation injure themselves during sports. Riker's imaginary son hurt himself playing "Parrises squares" (whatever the heck that is) so did Riker as a child.
Or how about this from "Timescape":
"Stop playing parrises squares as if you're 21!"
"One day, you'll break your neck, and I won't be able to heal that as easily."
That once again Beverly.
Riker also fought against his father "Anbo-jyutsu" which was also portrayed as dangerous.
People hurt themselves on the holodeck too (O'Brien seemed to be kinda accident prone).
But it seems the only good injuries are the ones sustained in the Federation...?
The stories were nearly always depicted from the Federation's point of view, where all the'd ever encounter were aggressive opponents.
And while Worf certainly developed into a more complex character over time with glimpses behind the warrior facade, he also idolized that image, though in a more positive light.
The reality is, that Klingon warriors can be downright nasty and almost never represent the ideal of the noble warrior poet.
It took DS9 and several almost exclusively Klingon focused episodes to see that they are also reasonable, intelligent people kind of forced to adhere to social dogma.
They believe in that honor stuff, but almost no one lives, or can live up to it.
There are Klingons who are outright not warriors, but scientists, diplomats, judges, engineers, doctors, etc.
Those are carrers followed rarely by the noble house leaders, because that'S not where the glory is perceived, but necessary and valid career choices for the common folks.
careers where they might never gain as much popularity as the, most of the time quite corrupted, leaders of the empire, but can flourish and excell at.
Regular klingon soldiers however are to be pitied.
They more often than not end up as cannon fodder or lose a fight against almost mortally wounded Bajoran petite women and such.
They usually buy into the story of dying gloriously young to secure a place in the warrior halls of sto'vo'kor.
No need to apologize. Even if you did not intend to be so harsh, it is still an accurate assessment. The truth often hurts. I was just pointing out how from a different viewpoint and world experience, the utopia of Gene Roddenberry's season 1 TNG could be considered stifling and oppressive. And THAT contrast is what makes the Maquis cause suddenly seem less as a terrorist movement and more of a liberation cause.
The Maquis stories are really good examples of where the Federation and Starfleet falls down. Not that I would condone the terrorist tactics that they (Maquis) eventually resorted to, but they weren't free to organize themselves into an independent or semi-independent state counter to Cardassian rule and their fate was decided without representation. The Feds just declared them to be illegal colonies and gave those systems up to pursue their own agenda.
If those had been Klingon colonies, the Empire would've dared the Cardies to try to occupy them.
If anyone disagrees with Federation policies and politics, the leadership is no more tolerant of the dissension of the minority than the Dominion is.
How many times were Picard or Sisko basically told to shut up and follow orders? And not just where the Maquis were concerned.
Whereas in the Empire, dissent or challenge is a fact of life and they have social mechanics to deal with that. You have the right to dissent if you're a good enough warrior to back it up. If your leader is incompetent, you have the right to assume his position if you can kill him for it (and survive reprisals from loyalists). A Klingon simply does not follow orders unquestionably... but wouldn't question them in the same way that a human Starfleet officer might.
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But you also forget the fact, The federation is a multi-species organization, that is not homogeneous as the Klingon empire. Their worlds and their officers don't always get along. And as was stated in the Andorian comic, each off their individual worlds would be easy pickings for the larger empires out there.
So yes the federation is very careful on what it fights over. The Klingons are willing to pick a fight with anyone for any reason. The Klingons and Rom's went from a strategic alliance to Hated blood enemies, they Helped drive the Cardassian union into the arms of the Dominion.
And in the Novels they are primarily the reason the Gorn joined the Typhon pact. Yes Star Fleet is a Military you have to sometimes shut up and follow orders, because your state is in a no win scenario the individual might not see, that the higher ups do.
Your depictions of the Vikings are very stereotypical. When you think of Vikings, don't think solely of pillaging raiding parties. The Vikings were excellent sailors who reached the Americas and the Orient, founded colonies and they also were sophisticated merchants. Like every other society they had warriors as well as merchants as well as farmers as well as diplomats as well as scholars ...
Just like the Klingons.
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Aggressive, belligerent, and quick to take offense. Some rather foolish or short sighted.
Now look at what they have. An interstellar empire, advanced technology that includes energy weapons, star ships, transporters, and energy shielding. They did not just steal all this. They build and maintain it as well. They focus foremost on military applications and are very focused in general.
One assumes that all klingons aspire to be warriors and that anything else is a failure. . I disagree.
They would not advance with that mindset, they can't enslave their workers and scientists either. So there has to be a degree of honour to those positions as well.
Look at the Mogh. When it slipped it's moorings there were cheers. When it performed its first kill, it was an honouor for the captain, the entire crew, the engneers at the shipyard that built her, and the designers that envisioned her. All of them shared the honour, because without one component they all failed. But all we see directly is the captain and gunners. So all it is, is warriors. To those that do not look at the big picture.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The fed missconceptions of the KDF is just that, a missconception. Based on the widely differing ideologies of the two.
R.I.P
This is based in large part on Martok. Sure, once the fight starts, he enjoys it as much as the next Klingon, but he doesn't go out of his way to seek them out. He acts more like a professional soldier. And his backstory per "Once More Unto the Breach" is that he was born a commoner and wasn't initially allowed to become an officer because the blue-blooded Kor had him blacklisted for his low birth. Despite this, he managed to get a field commission and then fought his way to flag rank and eventually the chancellorship.
Evidence suggests that, like Kor, most of the Klingon officer corps are nobles, with the grunts (who, as with Starfleet, we rarely see) drawn from common stock.
Also, the Klingons tend to operate on a spectrum. To use the Bortasqu' command crew as an example, on the one end you have Hark of the House of J'mpok. He's a straight, I would even say stereotypical, Klingon, a glory hound implied to have his eye on Captain Koren's job. On the other end, you have Tarol, the chief engineer, whose idea of "honor" is more along the lines of what a Starfleet officer might call a sense of professionalism (i.e. she finds honor in doing her job well, regardless of whether anyone praises her for it). The rest of the Klingons on the bridge are somewhere in between.
Meanwhile, in my current Foundry project, I'm writing a Klingon bar bouncer whose parents are a farmer and an accountant respectively (because I like turning stereotypes upside-down).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And if Kirk said that, then I guess that means...
/thread over.
:P
Ther ones we see the most are the warriors and base our judgments from them
Klingon farmers out performed Federation advanced technology to take away a planet in A development contest from the Organians for control of the planet
klingon Fleet Admirals were called Thought Admirals and controled the massive klingon fleets and wars...............but in most cases were not warriors
The scientfic caste looked upon science as a war as well stopping at nothing to achieve there goal
The 2 part FASA role playing game books the Klingons goes a lot deeper into this ....good readng
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
A few things to note.
First of all, Starfleet "not being a military organization," aside from IMO being rather nonsensical (unless there is in fact a separate Federation military branch) and frankly delusional as to the reality of the rest of the universe, was strongly suggested to have become true only after Star Trek VI. The dialog pointed towards it essentially becoming largely demilitarized in whole or in part when the Klingons stood down. Never mind that the Klingons were not the Federation's only opposition at the time.
Starfleet's actual level of militarization seems to actually vary a great deal. Aside from episodes penned or heavily influenced by Roddenberry, we typically find that the militarization is approximately what the episode requires of it. I find that the JAG, however, is not the best direct evidence of Starfleet being militarized or not. "Modern" Starfleet fairly clearly descended from a military history (consistent with things such as the strong Earth-oriented naval tradition), so an internal judicial system dubbed the JAG is not a huge stretch, no matter what the current situation is. I would say similar trappings, as well as similar nomenclature, would have essentially the same effect all around.
Section 31 is a bit of an odd duck, and Roddenberry would blanch at it, especially since so many fans do not seem to be swallowing his moralizing and think Section 31 does what needs to be done to keep the Federation in existence. That said, Starfleet officers seem to rail against it pretty heavily. As such, while part of the Federation, it is often looked at as an internal villain taking the "easy way" out, and although they seem to manipulate Bashir into doing what they want them to, they do gain a bit of a victory over them in capturing Sloan and essentially getting him killed while obtaining the cure for Odo. I would say further that "In the Pale Moonlight" is another piece of evidence that Starfleet is as military as the story needs them to be - and at that point saying "oh and the Romulans jump on board too" would have been a lot less interesting. It is also another piece of evidence that parts of the fiction that Roddenberry did not so heavily influence are, frankly, closer to common sense.
All things considered, as someone who generally orients himself around Starfleet (with a pretty heavily-edited head canon) I for one am glad that in many episodes we see evidence of a Starfleet willing to get its hands dirty and do what needs to be done, and wish we'd see more of it. Heroes that are more concerned with how they admire themselves in the mirror for their morality while thousands die for their ethical vanity aren't heroes at all, and these are the heroes that we so often find in fiction.
This shows how the general zeitgeist changed between the incarnation of the shows, out-of-universe. Today, in the society most younger part of the audience grows up, we have tv shows about heroic agents that torture to gain information in order to save the day (or rather save the united states of america
It saddens me, if I'm honest.
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Interestingly enough it's more of a "zeitgeist cycle".
J. Michael Straczynski's (JMS') "Babylon 5" showed us a police-state Earth Alliance where bad thoughts were grounds enough to have poeple arrested for sedition.
There it was okay to have people disappear and be tortured and interrogated without legal representation.
He was cirticized for this since some people regarded it as a veiled attack on the Bush administration. Those pople did not take into account that this was impossible since B5 ended years before Bush became president.
Actually JMS thought about McCarthyism (and of course "1984") when he wrote it.
So it seems to be some kind of cycle that comes and goes for a while.
It scares me a lot, especially when you read stuff like this:
https://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-challenges-defense-department-personnel-policy-regard-lawful-protests-%E2%80%9Clow-le
since it's pretty close to JMS' vision of the future.
With McCarthyism it was the communists and traitors.
With B5 it were disloyal people and alien collaborators.
Today it's terrorists and everyone who's not suporting "the right ideals" enough "wants them to win".
Section 31 is similar in too many ways to count and it's indeed saddening that their methods are seen as necessary today.:(
I agree with Angrytarg. Sometimes military power, and the reputation of having military power, will keep you safe - but it also antagonises your neighbours. (Like Iran did, for instance.) So there's a balance to be struck. I had this idea for an alien civilisation that revolved around that idea - basing their strategy on arranging that nobody wants to kill them because they're either friends or indispensable in some way, with actual fighting capacity an afterthought in much the same way that defusing conflicts currently is for us. (Largely inspired by the ideas coming out of SGR, only fun.) But I haven't a plot, so it didn't happen.
OK, sorry, this has nothing to do with Klingons.
If I remember correctly (I really don't like that secret agent stuff
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Riker's captain(admiral) that developed the phase cloak.
Dougherty going to transplant/kill a population to strip mine their home.
Admiral mentioned for DS9 where all this finally gets a name.
In canon they are doing the things the ideal of the Federation won't. They willingly cross the line in the sand that the Federation uses to say who they are.
Sadly, as I have said in other threads, in game they seem more Starfleet than some of the admirals you take orders from. (T'nae.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Back to Klingons: I tend to go by what Commander Kor remarked at the end of "Errand of Mercy" (in a rather obvious comment on the Russians, OOC) - that governments and cultures come and go, but when you take all that out of the equation, Klingons are basically a lot like Humans, what you see is just the result of different times and fashions. The various redesigns actually make sense on that basis, in the same way that the Elizabethans behaved quite a lot differently from the Victorians. The 23rd-century Empire was a sophisticated but ruthless totalitarian state; the 24th-century Empire was all about honour and courage, to the point of just a bit silly sometimes; and in the 25th century as shown in STO there seems to be a rather annoying fashion for playing at Vikings.
Actually, I've ALWAYS thought this, into the 90's.
That said, I think you're overstating what I said. The problem does not lie in the fact that they don't grab every Romulan they find and beat the secrets out of them before summarily executing them, nor is it that they don't pat down everyone with funny ears and/or antennae before boarding a shuttle. The problem, IMO, is when things are taken too far in an attempt to push some sort of "message" into the story, and when the characters do a lot of blatantly stupid things in the name of principle. And often enough someone who is not a main character dies because of it.
This sort of mentality can also be seen in some rather single-minded interpretations of the Prime Directive - principle above all, even millions of lives. While there are cases wherein the Federation probably should not interfere, e.g. internal disputes on underdeveloped worlds, there are cases such as natural disasters wherein the Federation SHOULD interfere, but usually don't, even if the population is utterly helpless. A world will not have "natural development" if it starts sprouting volcanoes under their mud huts, unless "natural development" includes "world devoid of life." In such a situation, one should not be patting themselves on the back over how principled one is. I'd bet that if you asked random people today if abandoning such helpless people, even if they don't have warp drive, was right, you would get an emphatic "no." While you may be dismayed at people turning away from idealistic heroes, I for one would shudder at a world that thought they were morally superior or correct in abandoning the helpless to such a fate. Even the Federation has an extremely hard time swallowing it, at least when they have to pull the trigger. Recall the episodes with Data and the alien child he contacted via subspace. He was about to turn it off and abandon her and her world on Picard's orders, until Picard had the misfortune of hearing that the voice on the other end was a child who was terrified, alone, and without help almost certain to die horribly. A real person who can do great things and who can suffer just as greatly, not a faceless number in a philosophy textbook.
Now, in terms of more direct combat situations, a lot of the time the Federation does pretty blatantly stupid things. As said, sitting there and hailing the opponent while they strip the shields left and right. If Picard needs Deanna Troi to tell him she "senses hostility" when an enemy ship is dumping their weapons on you, then he needs to get his head examined to see if Irumodic Syndrome kicked in. It's time to fight back, even if you only intend to disable their weapons and engines. I think "Pale Moonlight" actually hit the right balance of this. The situation was rare, and it was desperate. It was not something undertaken lightly. Sisko did it. And he will regret it every day for the rest of his life. But it was done, and it had to be done, and he knew it. He'd rather swallow his conscience now than have to sit down at the negotiation table with the Dominion and work out the timetable for the Federation's surrender and annexation. It's even more potent when one realizes that they were saving the Romulans, as well, in the long-term - it would be foolish to assume that they wouldn't turn on the Romulans as soon as they'd managed to win against the Federation and rebuild their forces.
Simple fact of the matter is, the entire universe is not as "advanced" as the Federation, or at least humans, and will come to kill you and take your stuff if you let them. If you want to produce rich stories rather than straw men for allegory, the fact that there are always wolves out there is something that has to be dealt with. I do not consider alienating the human survival instinct as an "advancement," myself - they're selecting against themselves in the gene pool. But survival does not need to be a bloodbath or devolve into raw sadism, and neither does common sense - but it does involve getting your hands dirty now and again.
Plus the novel the Final Reflection.
Well assuming the Romulans weren't planning to build a fleet of Scimitar-class Warbirds and fry the entire Dominion with Thalaron radiation.