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Why I support the Tal Shiar....
jmaster29
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Disclaimer: Please don''t kill me 
Anyway, this is why D'Tan is a moron.
1. He sold the Romulans off to the KDF and FED. They can: fly their ships, have them on your bridge and go to their maps.
2. He tries to destroy the Romulan way of life. He wants to build a "Way of life with no deception and secrecy". Sounds nice, hey? He does this by betraying his state, and plotting the downfall of the RSE. Sound like secrecy and deception to me.
3. He's naive. He sounds like some bogus Federation diplomat half the time. He's a Romulan, not a diplomat.
4. There was a reason Romulans left Vulcan. They didn't like the idea. Walk around the Flotilla, and "monitor" the NPCs conversations. Basically, noone really seems to support reunification.
Anyway, please don't kill me, Republicans. *Hides behind flame proof shelter*
Anyway, this is why D'Tan is a moron.
1. He sold the Romulans off to the KDF and FED. They can: fly their ships, have them on your bridge and go to their maps.
2. He tries to destroy the Romulan way of life. He wants to build a "Way of life with no deception and secrecy". Sounds nice, hey? He does this by betraying his state, and plotting the downfall of the RSE. Sound like secrecy and deception to me.
3. He's naive. He sounds like some bogus Federation diplomat half the time. He's a Romulan, not a diplomat.
4. There was a reason Romulans left Vulcan. They didn't like the idea. Walk around the Flotilla, and "monitor" the NPCs conversations. Basically, noone really seems to support reunification.
Anyway, please don't kill me, Republicans. *Hides behind flame proof shelter*
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by jmaster29 on
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Comments
Indeed. I kinda worded the title wrong. Should be more 'Why I support the RSE"
Imperialism is a child's desire to crave everything it sees. D'tan offers a way to outgrow that. He allows the Republican Romulans to mature and earn the respect of other species instead of killing them.
Also, uniting with the Vulcans doesn't mean re-Vulcanization, the same unification between Germans and French in the European Union means assimilation into any single culture. The Romulans (of the Republic) are taking the baby steps toward Federation membership.
Between the progressive Romulan Republic and the evil Tal Shiar-run RSE, there are likely some more independent Romulan colonies who may be more traditionalist or conservative, keeping the old Romulan way of life alive. The Republic does not respresent all Romulans, the same way every Human is a citizen of the Federation. There's always room for subcultures.
Because that's the way they acted in every series, bar some aspects of TOS? It's like asking Klingons to remain a proud warrior culture that values honor, or for the Federation to remain a progressive, accepting, and exploration minded organization. In other words-it's not asking much at all.
Tell that to the Klingons.
And perhaps some people don't want the Romulans to be just another member of the Federation?
And reunification not implying re-vulcanization is ... debatable.
As far as Cryptic is concerned, there are only the two types of Romulans now-the traditionalists who by all rights should make up the majority of Romulans got written out in Legacy of Romulus. What should be represented is not because it conflicts with the whole black hat/white hat thing Cryptic is painting.
We can only hope by the elements that someone will assassinate him to save the Republic from his madness.
In fact that would be a pretty cool mission where the player is given the choice to secretly plot with other Romulans and assassinates him to save the Republic from what is clearly a danger to the Romulan people! While giving the player the choice not to help in the assassins and try to save him but the player is too late. That way continuity is preserved either way but the goody goody Romulans wouldn't feel they're forced to play a villain.
Then the Republic can take a new path , one of strength and duty under the new Romulan Star Empire!...well I can dream can't I?>.>
Romulans get to fly allied ships, use allied technology, command allied personnel, access allied facilities.
Starfleet/KDF get...nothing they didn't already have.
I partly agree.
But the Tal'Shiar is certainly not what i would support (the romulan EMPIRE, thats another story).
While D'Tan arguably sells out the Romulan culture to the federation (and therefore to the people who left romulus to die, including the vulcans who are as responsible for romulus destruction as taris), the Tal'Shiar sells out the romulan people to some strange aliens for experiments. And to the iconians.
Not a good choice either.
I personally think stos playable romulans have little romulan about them either.
As I said before: given the story line, that even makes sense. They are a culture of refugees, not an almighty empire any more.
But as a player if i sign up for "Romulan" I sign up for something diffrent then what we get.
The problem is people just seem to think in black and white, while romulans in the series are grey.
D'Tan is white, the Tal'Shiar is black (mustache twirling viliants), romulans are none of the two.
They were never evil, just focussed on their own interests above other interests and, above anything, much much more pragmatic. That is what is often confused with "evil". And thats what D'Tans faction lacks.
D'tan heavily implied that one of the concessions for this alliance was to give both sides access to Romulan cloak technology. How does selling off Romulan technology for hand outs not make him anything but a sell out?
What arguments? The ones I've stated repeatedly to those who hate the Vulcans so thoroughly as to cringe at the thought of non-sectarian (non-Vulcan), academic Logic and flee from any semblance of rational thought?
Everything you gave among your excuses for supporting the Tal'Shiar (and that's exactly right; you support the Tal'Shiar, because the RSE is dead apart from the Tal'Shiar's scattered cells of incompetent terrorists) have been stated by you and/or others repeatedly, and I have responded to them repeatedly. Were you attempting to bait me by creating this thread?
I remember him saying this about the Federation and Klingons wanting Romulan technology
Deception and deceit is not the Romulan way of life, Because they have been expanded on time and time again in the books. Hell even All preator's don't like deception and deceit.
The Romulan empire tends to suffer from bad leadership, and nasty internal fighting, and most Romulan leaders recognize it is self destructive. Most Romulans don't embrace it, but their society can't find a way out.
As for Romulan cloaking Tech, that's old. The Klingon have had it for years, and they pioneered fire while cloaked tech. The Federation never devloped it openly because of their treaty with the Romulan Empire. Fact is the made a superior cloak, back When Riker was a fresh out the acadamy.
Remember the Phase cloak? in the Books its the romulans cutting edge, that the feds discovered decades ago. In the Novel the romulans and typhon pack are trying to steal federation Quantum Slipstream tech.
Take a look at real world culture, Ethiopia, Dynastic China, Shogunate Japan, isolationism and secretiveness just leads to a series of but whoopings, no civilization has kept its edge by being isolationist.
It was Gone into when Many Coto took over Enterprise, the one with the Actor who played General Martok playing a Klingon lawyer, lamenting that the warrior cast basically rail-roaded their society.
That Klingon in the past sis not think war was a positive thing, If you could only read one Star Trek book on Klingon I would recommend "Burning House" of the IKS Gorkon series.
I have to agree with the Klingons, The Federation should have not sign a treaty with the Romulan Empire to not develop and use cloaking technology. (But only on defined ship classes like the Defiant) And the cloak that was used was a bit out-of-date.
Also, Romulan high military and government (which frequently overlapped on Romulus) leadership is not necessarily representative of the civilians, who all had their own unique personal honour codes. Importantly, this is what most of the republic is, displaced civilian refugees, not the cutthroats who rose through the ruthless Tal Shiar.
To me, Romulans aren't inherently deceitful. They're calculating, for good or bad. Most the time we have seen this from the Tal Shiar, whose use has typically been counter to that of the Federation and 'evil'.
Your right, The Romulans put the foot down on that subject. I do believe the bluff should have been called. D'Tan dos not want to just have to deal with an alliance with only the Klingons.
One does not simply barter for inferior tech.:P
There's a reason why the Klingons and Federation are rubbing their hands together greedily and I doubt it's because they're doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. I think it's safe to say that Romulan tech has advanced since then maybe not to the point of a phase cloak but we don't really know what became of that tech. It's quite possible that the tech wasn't as perfected as we were led to believe much like genesis.
The scimitar for instance aside from a phase cloak appears to be decades ahead of Klingon or Federation cloak technology.
Well what I remember in particular about that event is that the federation just decided over the fate of romulan property, while the Klingons actually supported the romulans as an allied partner,
But that aside...
The point is not that decipt and betray is written into the romulan genetic code. Also on screen we did not "mainly the Tal'Shiar doing that". The Tal'Shiar was only involved in very rare occasions.
The point is:
Romulans use that kind if tactics to accomplish their goals. That's what they are good it. That's their kind of strategy. We do not see that from the player-faction-romulans at all.
Which leads to one simple result: no matter how "reasonable" the change in romulan behaviour is, no matter how reasonable it may be that not all romulans apply that tactics, the bottom line is that from a player perspective they simply do not feel romulan. and that's what we signed up for.
:P Um yeah, No. The old RSE died when Sela became it's leader.
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And yet, neither the Federation nor the Empire have full access to Romulan cloak tech. The Feds do not have Battle Cloak. The KDF can manage Battle Cloak only on their smallest ships, the BoP raiders, whereas the mighty Scimitar-class warbirds can not only Battle Cloak but they can actually maintain shields while cloaked.
I don't see that the Republic has really given anything up to its' allies except the promise of goodwill. The Alliance plays the Fed and the Empire off of each other for the benefit of the Romulans and it's a purely political invention. Any "shared" technology is available through the Romulan Reputation system only, in game terms.
As far as them taking steps toward joining the Federation, I don't see that happening either. It's established that the ordinary Romulan doesn't really trust the Feds or the KDF all that much.
(Go replay "Mine Enemy" or talk to some of the NPC's on New Romulus if you need confirmation of that fact.)
It's the concern that the Romulans might side with the Federation that brought the KDF into the Alliance in the first place.
And, based on "Sphere of Influence" and "Step Between Stars", we see a more typical display of Romulan pride (or arrogance, if you prefer) when there's any implication that the Feds or the KDF might encroach on what the Republic considers its' sovereign rights.
These are not the actions and attitudes of people who are ready to "sell out", IMO.
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The Romulans have always been arrogance, The Klingons know there being used and only playing
along with what is happaning. As for the Federaction as well. Like in Step Between Stars, We the Republic will take command here. (Jenolan Dyson Sphere) Captain Shon & Captain Koren are not happy about this.
I was going to stay out of this, but the Republic is very, very far removed from being Vulcan anything. There's three major aspects of Vulcan culture that I think mark them:
1. A focus on rationality and logic.
2. Philosophical Pacifism.
3. Arrogant condescension towards lesser races.
Out of those, the Republic shows... none (though the Romulans have historically show #3 in common with the Vulcans). The Republic has not embraced Surakian philosophy, despite D'Tan's being a Reunificationist. In fact, there is NPC chatter throughout Mol'Rihan and in the Republic Fleet that's NPCs basically rejecting the idea of Reunification. The Romulans still are driven by their passions, often to the point of short sightedness (example: trying to open the Iconinian Gateway was clearly driven by their Pride and belief that they could succeed where everyone else before had failed, and a desire to prove themselves still relevant). The Republic being guided by its passions is pretty obvious, even D'tan is more guided by his emotions than by Vulcan Logic, his rejection of the Tal Shiar and obvious hatred of them, while rationally sound, is also clearly driven by emotional responses.
As to point 2... *shoots Hakeev in the head, while waging no-holds barred war against the Tal Shiar and Imperial Remnants to become the only Romulan successor state left standing* Yeah... uhh... no. The Romulans are just as militaristic and expansionistic as they've always been, just now they're doing it as a civil war rather than against outside powers. Which makes sense given the status Nemesis and JJTrek left them in.
Ironically, the one they share with the Vulcans in the one people seem to hate losing the most. The Romulans have been humbled by the Hobbes event, and the Republic reflects this. They deal not from a position of strength, as we are used to seeing them in, but from a position of weakness. They also know the Federation quite well, and know how to act to most gain from dealing with them. Acting arrogant and superior towards them won't help their end goal of rebuilding, but acting nice and kind will.
In other words, the Romulans act how they always have acted: in the way that they think best suits their long term best interests. It just happens that right now that is playing nice and taking advantage of the sympathy their misfortune brought, rather than betraying and plotting.
"It is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission"
They just forget to ask for forgiveness
I mean that I believe that somewhere in every episode there
is a Tal Shiar operative running the show and that Unification
shows the Romulan civillians in a somewhat more realistic light
Perhaps the Republic is stalling on giving that information given it's the only ace card they have to play.
Or the technology is already being dissected in secret Federation and Klingon bases as we speak. The thing about military secrets is the military tends to like it's secrets to remain secret. Only fools reveal they have knowledge of an enemies weapons.
Current events could also have a part to play with this after all the Klingons and Federation have been rather distracted with other things given the Dyson spheres and all.
Yet D'tan made specific mention of it , if it was not a factor then why mention it hmm?
The ordinary Republic Romulan may not but their leaders intent is clear the question is what will the masses do , follow or resist.
These same Romulans are wearing uniforms specifically designed for Federation & Klingon sided crews. Does that not sound strange to you in the slightest for a sovereign organization to be wearing uniforms designed by foreign powers?
I hope you're referring to something besides novels. Because no matter how cool, well written, or fun a novel is, its not canon. Never has been, never will be.
Most Definitely!!
That may not have been the final deathblow but it was real close. The old Romulan Star Empire is dead, its twitching remains are too corrupt to save. The Romulan Republic is a bad joke on our people. Let us give rise to the Raptor Empire, where Romulan and Reman (and maybe if Cryptic is feeling like getting off its TRIBBLE, Suliban and Acamarian) stand as brothers side by side to restore both our people to strength and glory!
Sounds more like the Federation and Klingon Empire sold themselves to the Romulans to me.
I always thought that the vast majority of Romulan citizens, even at the height of the Empire's strength, lived a way of life with no deception and secrecy. It's the political elite that engaged in cloak-and-dagger, while the rest of the populace went about their business.
And I thought the RSE collapsed well before D'Tan came along. The homeworld was destroyed, Nero killed the remnants of the Senate, and the military fell into civil war. D'Tan came along well after all of that.
I'd like to see a little more of D'Tan being a "Romulan diplomat." By maintaining control of the Dyson Sphere and gateway to the Delta Quadrant, the Romulan Republic is in a position of power over the Federation and Klingons. I think it would be great to see D'Tan using this power to manipulate/influence the other factions. The most sinister manipulators are the ones that seem the most friendly.
People keep talking about reunification, but while D'Tan is unquestionably a reunificationist, I haven't seen any evidence that he's forcing this philosophy onto any other Romulans. It's just what he believes.
Their actions pretty much eclipses any silly/annoying/disagreeable thing D'tan EVER did.
Plus they also destroyed the homeworld to begin with. Sure, not ALL Tal Shiar did, or even know what's going on, but the ones at the top sure did. Sooooo
Nope, can't see a single reason to side with them.