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Hybrid A2B/A2D for PvP Success
rck01
Member Posts: 808 Arc User
I've been wracking my brain for weeks trying to figure out a better way to PvP in my cruiser.
To date, Aux2Batt has been highly effective for me - it gave me the power I needed to overcap and do some serious damage with BFAW, especially 1v1. However, the perpetually low aux levels meant I had to skip critical hull healing options, like HE, making me vulnerable to DoT from Plasma, etc.
Another pet-peeve: Maneuverability. Though that extra aux power helped my engine performance, it was rarely enough to make me "slippery" in combat. As a beam-boat, I need to broadside in order to do maximum damage. And getting a cruiser to turn fast enough to consistently target a spikey escort is challenging, to say the least. Evasive helps, as does APO, but sometimes it's just not enough and you end up with and enemy on your tail that you just can't shake.
And, of course, there's the bleed-through issue. Even with Aux2Batt and some decent hull buffs (Fleet Neutronium, Borg 2-piece), you're still susceptible to bleed-through damage from Elachi weapons, DEM, et al. You end up spending most of your time just trying to survive despite having full shields - an absurd situation given the amount of power coursing through those EPS conduits.
So, out of frustration with the above, I started experimenting with non-Aux2Batt configurations, most notably my FAW/Beam-scort ("Sonic Squirrel"). This included using DCE/AP doffs along with a WCE (for the power boost) and AMS (for the Aux2Damp resist buff). But after having some success in building a tanky little mosquito of a ship, I tried to upsize its load-out to my FAHCR ("Momma Squirrel") and failed miserably.
Without Aux2Batt to flood the subsystems with power I just couldn't get the overcap levels I needed to generate the damage levels I had been accustomed to. And while a 2x Aux2Damp configuration had me zipping around and spinning like a top - and shedding bleed-through damage like it was nothing - I couldn't hit back effectively, rendering the whole build moot.
Finally, on the advice of my good friend Iskandus, I tried a hybrid approach: 1x Aux2Batt cycled against 1x Aux2Damp. Uptime of the skill pair is almost 100% - as one expires, the other is already coming off of CD. When Aux2Batt pops, I get a flood of power into weapons/shields/engines. When Aux2Damp pops, I get a speed/turn boost + extra kinetic and energy resist for 23 seconds (overlapping nicely into the Aux2Batt cycle).
Note: I've actually bound the two skills to my directional keys, along with my EPtX cycle (and TI), so I literally don't even have to think about keeping it rolling. It just happens naturally as I maneuver...no spacebar mashing here!
Combined with 3 Purple Tech Doffs, the aforementioned WCE/AMS combo, and an RSP doff for good measure, the cycling A2B/A2D combo has made my cruiser far "tankier" than it ever was using Aux2Batt alone. And while I don't get the same constant level of overcap that I had with 2x Aux2Batt, I was able to carefully adjust my power levels so that, when Aux2Damp is cycling, the Aux power level is hovering around 75 - enough to make aux skills work at acceptable levels (including HE) while also ensuring that I get the maximum boost from the AMP feature of my warp core.
This last part is critical: That extra 3.3% damage helps to mitigate the loss of overcap potential from the missing Aux2Batt cycle. And when the one copy of Aux2Batt does cycle, it has a lot more Aux power to draw from than would be the case had it been drained 10 seconds earlier by a previous Aux2Batt cycle.
Bottom Line: Switching to a hybrid A2B/A2D model has given my cruiser a new lease on life. It's faster, turns better and tanks like I always thought a cruiser should tank - and yet still has plenty of punch on offense. Overall, very pleased with the results. Here's the build page for anyone who's interested:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=rcktacfahcrevz6_0
Note: This is not an inexpensive build to develop. The AMS doff alone costs upwards of 16 million EC at current Exchange prices (hurry and grab one while you can). But if you're serious about PvP in a cruiser, you owe it to yourself to investigate a hybrid design.
RCK
To date, Aux2Batt has been highly effective for me - it gave me the power I needed to overcap and do some serious damage with BFAW, especially 1v1. However, the perpetually low aux levels meant I had to skip critical hull healing options, like HE, making me vulnerable to DoT from Plasma, etc.
Another pet-peeve: Maneuverability. Though that extra aux power helped my engine performance, it was rarely enough to make me "slippery" in combat. As a beam-boat, I need to broadside in order to do maximum damage. And getting a cruiser to turn fast enough to consistently target a spikey escort is challenging, to say the least. Evasive helps, as does APO, but sometimes it's just not enough and you end up with and enemy on your tail that you just can't shake.
And, of course, there's the bleed-through issue. Even with Aux2Batt and some decent hull buffs (Fleet Neutronium, Borg 2-piece), you're still susceptible to bleed-through damage from Elachi weapons, DEM, et al. You end up spending most of your time just trying to survive despite having full shields - an absurd situation given the amount of power coursing through those EPS conduits.
So, out of frustration with the above, I started experimenting with non-Aux2Batt configurations, most notably my FAW/Beam-scort ("Sonic Squirrel"). This included using DCE/AP doffs along with a WCE (for the power boost) and AMS (for the Aux2Damp resist buff). But after having some success in building a tanky little mosquito of a ship, I tried to upsize its load-out to my FAHCR ("Momma Squirrel") and failed miserably.
Without Aux2Batt to flood the subsystems with power I just couldn't get the overcap levels I needed to generate the damage levels I had been accustomed to. And while a 2x Aux2Damp configuration had me zipping around and spinning like a top - and shedding bleed-through damage like it was nothing - I couldn't hit back effectively, rendering the whole build moot.
Finally, on the advice of my good friend Iskandus, I tried a hybrid approach: 1x Aux2Batt cycled against 1x Aux2Damp. Uptime of the skill pair is almost 100% - as one expires, the other is already coming off of CD. When Aux2Batt pops, I get a flood of power into weapons/shields/engines. When Aux2Damp pops, I get a speed/turn boost + extra kinetic and energy resist for 23 seconds (overlapping nicely into the Aux2Batt cycle).
Note: I've actually bound the two skills to my directional keys, along with my EPtX cycle (and TI), so I literally don't even have to think about keeping it rolling. It just happens naturally as I maneuver...no spacebar mashing here!
Combined with 3 Purple Tech Doffs, the aforementioned WCE/AMS combo, and an RSP doff for good measure, the cycling A2B/A2D combo has made my cruiser far "tankier" than it ever was using Aux2Batt alone. And while I don't get the same constant level of overcap that I had with 2x Aux2Batt, I was able to carefully adjust my power levels so that, when Aux2Damp is cycling, the Aux power level is hovering around 75 - enough to make aux skills work at acceptable levels (including HE) while also ensuring that I get the maximum boost from the AMP feature of my warp core.
This last part is critical: That extra 3.3% damage helps to mitigate the loss of overcap potential from the missing Aux2Batt cycle. And when the one copy of Aux2Batt does cycle, it has a lot more Aux power to draw from than would be the case had it been drained 10 seconds earlier by a previous Aux2Batt cycle.
Bottom Line: Switching to a hybrid A2B/A2D model has given my cruiser a new lease on life. It's faster, turns better and tanks like I always thought a cruiser should tank - and yet still has plenty of punch on offense. Overall, very pleased with the results. Here's the build page for anyone who's interested:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=rcktacfahcrevz6_0
Note: This is not an inexpensive build to develop. The AMS doff alone costs upwards of 16 million EC at current Exchange prices (hurry and grab one while you can). But if you're serious about PvP in a cruiser, you owe it to yourself to investigate a hybrid design.
RCK
Post edited by rck01 on
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Comments
You seem like an experimenter so I wont give you a build as you could have more fun building something for yourself. But damage control engineers and a leech will give you all the juice your acussdomed to withought sacrificing your aux.
I wish! Believe me, I *tried* to get A2B power levels using just DCE's and the leech. Here's a comparison of weapons power stats for 7 beams + KCB:
DCE's only:
125 base level
16 from Leech
22 from EPtW1
25 from WCE (when it procs - 20% chance)
Best Case: 125 + 16 + 22 + 25 = 188 (26.85 per beam)
Typical: 125 + 16 + 22 = 163 (23.29 per beam)
Worst Case: Same as Typical
A2B/A2B hybrid:
125 base level
16 from leech
22 from EPtW1
25 from WCE (when it procs - 20% chance)
25 from A2B (when it's active - 50% uptime)
Best Case: 125 + 16 + 22 + 25 + 25 = 213 (30.43/beam)
Typical: 125 + 16 + 22 + 25 = 188 (26.85/beam)
Worst Case: 125 + 16 + 22 = 163 (23.29 per beam)
In summary: The hybrid's best case scenario is significantly higher than the DCE-only's best case scenario. Even the hybrid's worst case scenario is no worse than the DCE-only's typical scenario. But, of course, there's also that 50% of the time when the hybrid is actually doing as well as the DCE's best case scenario because A2B is active - with the potential for even higher levels if the WCE procs.
Also, note, that it takes 5 doffs (3 DCEs, 2 APs) to accomplish the same level of CD reduction as 3 purple tech doffs. That means I have to choose between the AMS doff or the WCE doff, further crippling my build. Or, if I want both, I need to drop a DCE or AP doff. Again, losing functionality. And, of course, there's no room on the DCE-based build for a specialty doff, like a Fab Engineer (RSP).
I tried to make a non-A2B build work. I just couldn't get the power levels high enough to justify the loss of functionality. And while 2x A2D sounds great on paper, in reality it leaves you squishier due to the lower power levels to shields, etc. This is especially true if you're being drained - without the A2B surge from time to time you're looking at fewer subsystems remaining in AMP proc territory, thus hurting you damage output potential.
RCK
Very nice, RCK, I think your newest build is much better rounded. No wonder the HOBOs in Kerrat are getting decimated by you left, right and center while still being shocked and awe.
As it stands, your cruiser is super maneuverable and fast while hitting very hard even when you inevitably get ganked by HOBO. Let's see, your ship now has EPTE, A2D (with purple doff), APO, A2B to give your Engine max power, + some RCS and Eng console for + turn, add in the occasional evasive...it's not surprise that your ship is seriously as maneuverable as some escorts but a lot tankier and hitting a lot harder. Honestly, anyone who dares to stand in your path risks of getting flatten by this flying elephant.
While I am here, you save me from having to start a new thread - I think - so I am going to hijack it a little. After growing tired of flying lock box / lobi / any P2W C-Store ships with broken cheese consoles, I wanted to go back to something that is canon, simple and what Star Trek is meant to be. It dawns on me that the problem where we have several Klingon pvp fleets congregating in Kerrat is because the queues are unplayable with several cheesy Fed premades using every broken toys and coordinated group tactics such that pugs have almost entirely disappear from the public queues - short of those who simply want to lay down and die in order to earn dil. So to combat this growing threat of nasty premade Klingon gangking in Kerrat, I wanted to create a ship that will make my Sci T'varo's famous snooping ability looks like a child's play. So I went back to the drawing board, and start to think...so how I do that? The answer is this :
Super Snooper
With a resulting SDR > 3000, it's more than 300% more potent than K'Vork's Sci T'Varo. And think about it, K'Vork's ship is enough to get Mini, Tala and all those evul HOBO crying a river here in the forums and QQ in chats, just imagine a ship with that kind of decloaking ability. I mean just by sitting in space, doing aboslutley nothing but sitting still with MES turned on, my SDR is over 1000. I can activate EPTA while "cloaked", which of course will bring the SDR above what K'Vork can do with EPTA+SS+TDF...that's how powerful this ship is in terms of seeing cloaked objects. Went testing it in non-fleet gear a few days ago before I refurbished it with Embassy stuff and Fleet consoles, the result was staggering. The Klingons and Kromulans really can't hide, even after they tried to evasive away to 15KM+ away. I could see a Scimi flying towards me like 9KM+ away by doing nothing at all and the Scimi doesn't even know I am there because I was technically cloaked. This niche build is a resounding success with one caveat. In its current form, it needs support - doesn't have enough firepower to wrestle down any ships tankier than a BoP unless the target is stupid enough to spike on its FBP III, in which case the target deserves to die. And it has already happened, believe it or not.
The next question is, what to do when this ship is not snopping? I mean in its current form, it's a great snooper but it's nothing but a welfarebula. I then realize I could adapt similar design and tactics used by the Pure Science Wells and the Super Drain dino ship onto this Nebula, because it is a Science vessel after all. Even better, I could skip all the cheesy consoles such as TIF, Immunity Matrix, and Aceton mode and create something using just Phasers and Photon for a true Starfleet vessel. I am not even going to worry about "what's the best energy type?" because the only energy type a Starfleet vessel should use is Phaser and nothing else. For Torpedo, it can only be either Quantum or Photon, nothing else. And a ship must have both phaser and torpedo, otherwise, it's not canon, so I say TRIBBLE dps, I want something authentic and make it PvP capable. Tall order I know, I mean not using a lockbox ship / not lobi / not P2W C-Store ship, and an old design that hasn't been updated since eons ago - and no elachi stupid disruptors, nothing fancy and no cheese consoles you'd think this kind of ship would be laughing stock in PvP. Well, the only one laughing is the Nebula as it turned out. Here is its build in actual PvP form when not snooping :
Da Vinci (Blueprint)
I deliberately leave out the equipment except the Warp Core and one of the Eng console slot. The reason being these slots are flexible slots with several different combinations and possibilities, depending on the situation. While the Eng and Tactical boff stations remain pretty much the same all the time, the Sci boff stations can change quite a bit, the ones shown were simply used as an example. It went to Kerrat last night and smashed a Klingon Bug ship like nothing at all, against a competent Bug pilot I might add who was always dipping in and out for spikes but never stayed around to be torn apart by BFAW. At the end, he still died anyway. But beating an Escort is nothing, now challenging RCK's BFAW double A2B DEM III hacker cruiser with 8 weapon slots and more hull was something else. Something, I too wasn't sure if this vessel of peace & exploration should even attempt with just plain phasers and a photon and no cheese console to spam. I'll let RCK do the talking if he wants to, since this is his thread, I don't want to hijack it too much. Suffice to say, this Nebula is one of the reasons why RCK went back to the drawing board and retool his ship because well...his cruiser didn't fare very well and could barely scratch even the paint of this vessel of research and exploration. Considering his BFAW A2B DEM III firing cruiser could smash multiple HOBO in an instant all at once, there is no reason he couldn't flatten anyone in a match up. I know he went on to blow up a tanky Klingnon Bortaqu cruiser later that day just to reconfirm he is still the man.
Seeing this improved design, I feel his cruiser is now even more powerful than before and so much more speedy. Speed is King in STO. I put this Nebula together originally in response to the growing HOBO / ISC / Nerds of Prey and other evul threats in Kerrat, never envisioned it to be able handle his own when not snopping but if it helped other Feds to rethink and retool to better themselves, then it's just bonus.
I am actually thinking about going back to A2B on my raptor.
The simple fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as "shield tanking" in today's STO. No matter how much power you pour into that subsystem, it'll never be enough to counter the ganker squads who are firing elachi weapons and hitting you with BO strikes that entirely bypass your energy-based defenses.
"Cooked inside your shields" is that way one player described it to me in chat the other day. But no matter how you slice it, the days of brute-force cruiser play are gone. To succeed - and by that I mean being effective both offensively and defensively - you need power, speed and stacked resists.
With Aux2Batt alone you're only getting the power part of the equation. Sure, you get some speed boost from the extra aux juice flowing in. But given that you're often drawing on a depleted or nearly depleted aux tank, it's not much of a bump. And as for resists, once the elachi weapons start decimating your hull, you realize you need to both hull tank and shield tank in order to survive.
So you start adding armor consoles. But this, in turn, means sacrificing engineering space that would have been better utilized by one or more universal consoles (Leech, Nukara, Borg, ZP) or even an EPS booster. Pretty soon you end up with something akin to a flying hunk of armor plated metal. It's slow, it's toothless, and even with all those stacked fleet neutroniums, it inevitably falls to the gank.
And don't get me started on vapers! There is simply no way to "tank" a well-timed Proton attack from Minimax - or even the more traditional BO strikes from Zenith, Rhiana, et al. Your only defense in those situations is speed and reaction time. Hit APO, EPTE and Evasive at the right time and you *might* make it out alive. If you're lucky. And the stars align/gods take pity on you.
So at the end of the day, your best option is to keep *moving*. By maintaining a healthy speed (through judicious use of APO, EPTE, Evasive and A2D), you make it *much* harder for the gankers to pin you down.
Last night in Ker'rat I found myself taking on 4-5 hobos at a time. Normally, such an encounter wouldn't have ended well: I might have held out for a minute or two, and maybe even taken one of the squishier attackers with me. But inevitably, when the RSP ran out, and my armor had been elachi-stripped to the bone, I'd fall.
But not this time. This time I was running my new hybrid A2B/A2D build, and the combination of speed (averaging 60-80 in combat) and resist from the AMS doff, allowed me to attack, then escape/evade while healing, only to return again 30-60 seconds later ready for more.
In the end, it took a veritable army of BO-firing, tractor beaming, subnuc'ing hobos to bring me down - and then only after I had taken several of them out at various points in the battle (the engagements went on for a good 4-5 mins or more).
In practice, my A2B/A2D cycle worked something like this:
1. With A2B up, I was at my peak offensive potential, with 3x subsystems into AMP and a beam overcap well over 200 (30+ per beam). Add DEM3, APA3, APO1, FOMM3, EPtW1 and BFAW2 (with Accx3 beams) and stuff started melting rather quickly. Speed was fluctuating between 50-80 or higher, depending on which buffs I employed (I would sometimes interrupt my normal EPtS/W cycle to slip in an EPtE boost).
2. With A2B on CD, A2D was coming up. By now my Aux level had also recovered from the A2B drain and was hovering at 75 to give me 4x subsystems into AMP (for a +13.2% damage bonus). So when I finally did pop A2D1 - along with HE2 if I needed to heal/clear DoTs - I was flying with a strong healing/resist cycle while being pounded on (usually in response to me popping one of their own during the offensive A2B cycle). Here I would often engage Evasive just to make myself an even harder target to track/hit. The sight of a 61K hull cruiser zipping all over the place at speeds of 100+ must have been quite alarming to the hobos who were pursuing me.
3. If the stuff really hit the fan, I'd pop EPtE + APO + Evasive and boogie out of trouble doing 150-200. I'd literally be on the other side of the map before the boost wore off - and without resorting to space-wasting console like ICC.
Bottom Line: The hybrid A2B/AD2 model has made it possible for me to prolong my cruiser's usefulness as a PvP platform. I'm no longer a flying pi
Now, with the A2B/A2D combo, I've been able to scale-back my Neut addiction and throw in an RCS console with +AllRes instead. Not sure how these stack vis-
A couple of possibilities I can think of here. Your hull dmg resist has been significantly debuffed via various disruptor / Romulan plasma proc + APD/APB/Sensor Scan + Sensor Analysis. The Elachi Weapon in question may come from shots from fully buffed DHC, in which case a single volley can reach up to 10K-15K, like a mini-BO, coupled with the above mentioned hull damage resist debuff, it can look like you are disintegrating inside of your shields. I have noticed you are not always situationaly aware of the debuffs being put on you, for example, stacking Sensor Analysis. When I trailed you in my cloaked dino ship in the past, I was in fact stacking Sensor Analysis on you but you were completely oblivious to them. When I do the same in Kerrat against any competent Klingons, either a Bug ship or for example Fonz, they immediately know someone is following them and take evasive action trying to shake me off even when they can't see me. Stacking Sensor Analysis can debuff your hull dmg resist by up to a shocking 33%, that's more dmg resist provided by two Fleet Neutroniums combined.
On a side note, temporary sensor break such as your T4 Romulan placate doesn't always break the Sensor Analysis tracking if it's too short in the break. I think the break has to be 3 seconds plus to undo the Sensor Analysis tracking. Plus, the T4 placate that you threw out barely bothers me. Ludavix is spec with maximum Starship Sensor skill and reduce placating to about just a split second. The only time you were ever completely invisible to me is when you duck away under Quantum Manipulation. Other than that, the placating you are counting on really is just tickling Ludavix's high sensoring skills. Don't forget his Fleet Nebula was originally conceived to do super snooping with a crazy high level of SDR, even when he switches out the detection consoles, he is still carrying extremely high Starship sensor skills. The placating may work well against a Bug Escort who has about zero Starship Sensor, but against a Science vessel, you really can't count on your placate to save your bacon. HOBO premades sometimes have 1 or 2 Sci in their ganks. They are often in Sci BoP and well hidden. While you may not know they are there, they are actually debuffing your hull dmg resist while remaining cloaked. Watch out for these debuffs icons more closely, it will give more awareness of what's around you and it will give clues that some evul HOBO ganks are already nearby hungry for some juicy RCK meat.
Frankly, I'm having a blast piloting my "new" cruiser, especially now that it handles like a jumo-sized escort. I'm literally power-sliding into targets at speeds of 100+, and I can get myself out of trouble with a burst of 200+ if I stack all my speed buffs.
The build itself is tough as nails - not from healing, but from the combination of speed, maneuverability and resists. I simply don't take as much damage as before, which for me means that the coming ET/ST/TT redesign isn't the holy grail that it is for some players.
Even if I could build a 2x A2B tank, I have to wonder if it would be able to sustain the same level of damage output as my current build. With 4x subsystems into AMP, and with less reliance on shield tanking (I now use the Weapons Efficiency cruiser command instead of the Shield Modulation), I can focus more on buffing the offensive side of my game play.
As to your comments, Iskandus, about situational awareness - point taken. I'm constantly told by my better PvP colleagues that I need to watch my opponents buffs. But with so many of my own buffs to manage, I tend to rely on visual cues - a change in the shield strength indicator on a particular facing or a sudden drop in a targets hull % - in order to tell when to press the attack, as opposed to backing off and waiting for another opportunity. I rarely even look at my own set of buff/debuff "badges," which is something I know I need to do in order to improve at PvP.
Anyway, I would still encourage other cruiser captains to at least consider my build. Once you start flying around the map at "ludicrous" speed while shaking off attackers like so many mosquitos, you'll be hard pressed to go back to your stodgy, A2B "pinata" play style.
RCK