Did a TD match a few days ago, wasn't very balanced, it was balanced by class but mini didn't check what types of ships tacs were using
Mini tends to run these matches as totally random 5v5s with no rules. That's not really a good example of how balanced TD matches can be if done properly.
Mini tends to run these matches as totally random 5v5s with no rules. That's not really a good example of how balanced TD matches can be if done properly.
But it is a good example of how a PUG-only queue without some form of balanced matchmaking could end up potentially worse in some cases than what exists...
...it's a complex matter that will require a complex solution.
Given the way Cryptic is going with things though...meh, I can't think of a positive thing to say about them at the moment (whereas I'm usually arguing with both sides regarding them, trying to find that happy middle ground - where I'm attacking and defending them...I just don't see it anymore - they've lost their freaking minds)...
Yea that was my Tac bug Rinzler. I had a few beers in me too. I know those LaFamilia guys but wasn't coordinating with them. Yea I can't stay in your forward arc when you have DEM up, I melt! And when the both of you would decloak on me I didn't have a chance so I just hightailed it out of there... You almost had a 3rd kill on me. I ran and my HE was on CD. Oh the plasma burn! It hurts! I was down to 3% before I got HE back!
You should see my Sci bug snooper... I can see Romulans from 10km+ Oh the grief people have me the other day. They thought I was haxing the game bc I could see them, keep up with them and had enough dps to kill them. They never realized I was a Sci!
I think I saw that sci bug snooper before, works pretty good, must be yours as there aren't many.
Back on topic, good idea about pvp rep system or match counter so people with lots of pvp experince won't slaughter new players as much, a good alternative to mix queues. Between doing that and having a pvp lobby system to make forming and finding premades easier it can reduce pug vs premade without banning them from queues.
Yes, we're looking into it. Accuracy Overflow won't currently work for any power that "ignores accuracy" - powers that have any autohit stage.
Acc Overflow is a really arcane mechanic that doesn't message well at all. Fixing it will be a widespread change to the mechanic as a whole, not just a change to a flag on Fire at Will. It will take a little while, but it's in the pipeline to be adjusted to work.
Well you are sort of talking out your backside man.
Yes we have tried lots of stuff in TD to see what wokrs and what leads to fun matches. We also did a TD tournament where close to 100 random players where teamed completely at random. (well sort of we did even out the captain classes as best we could). Matches where good but yes I guess not completely random as I say we balanced by captain type.
I'm sorry but I have qued enough and have 1000s of hours in the PvP ques in the last 4 years. I can tell you completely random isn't much better then what we have. Yes I have ended up in 100% no premade games where I have ended up on a team with another High dps escort or two and guess what happens... a 5 min 15-0. Its not just high dmg escorts either... I have pugged in my science ships and even in my heal cruisers... and same thing 2-3 high end players end up on a team against 5 inexperienced PvP players and well its a again a slaughter. You can claim I am simply being elitist if it makes you feel better. I am not saying I having gotten into good random matches. Of course there RANDOM so now and then you will get a lucky role and things will be balanced by luck.
I think what we are saying is WHY rely on luck... that seems pretty stupid when we can skip luck completely.
Yes our experience in TD is 100% valid. When we went full on random it was hit and miss... good matches accept for when one side got stacked... which will happen when you role the dice. However 2 other methods we tried WORKED. One was balancing 100% by hand. As you can imagine the issue there is the time involved. Early on that is what we did every match we talked before hand figured out who was flying what... and then one guy based on that, and some idea of who the Vets where would sort of divide things up to try and get a good mix of experience and team make up on both sides. The other thing we have found that works is using MATH. With a lot of help from Mancom. He created his tool for us... and tweaked his formulas a few times based on what our feedback was... and he has it at a point where it is pretty darn good. It is reliant on the data it has to work with of course... but if you use it to match 10 people with at least a small amount of data for each player the results are very very good... where almost every match it creates for us is a great match. I don't think it has ever messed up so bad we have seen 15 -5 even... most of the time the games are 15-12+. That is not with just a few people either they have used in TD for 8-9 hour stretches of games and the people that are coming and going are all having great matches... because the MATH works.
Total Random won't work much better then the que system we have IMO. New players are still likely to get a bad roll and end up in a match vs 3-4 vets... and get slaughterd. Only there egos will have no evil premades to blame. Would just be terrible for the game.
However a System that qued 10 people in a match (not allowing teams at all either) that however looked at captain types ships types... and yes some basic player history (DPS / HPS / Wins losses / games played) could ensure that blowouts wouldn't happen... and MOST games would be fun for everyone playing.
It also wouldn't extend que times AT ALL... if there are 8 vets and 2 new players teamed its a simple math solve... split the 2 new guys 1 per team... split the captain types... and after that split on basic stats. Mancons tool spits us an answer in about 3s... no reason Cryptic can't create the same back end formula.
Just saw this. Ok whatever, you think i am talking out of my backside.
You like TD and thats cool, each to their own. Im sure its amazing for people like you, who are obsessed with a pvp system that barely exists. My point about TD, which you seem to have ignored, is the fact ITS ALL THE SAME KIND OF PEOPLE. So that means it isn't random. Its half made up of the crazy pvp obsessed people that i want to avoid. Therefore whatever results you yielded from your 'random' matchmaking i don't care.
As i have said and some others already said also on this thread, we just want a queue that you can only queue for solo. You can keep your regular pvp queue, your TD and hell, even let Cryptic waste time with a matchmaker, and all the little checkboxes you want. I still dont want the chance that i could end up in a match with 2 or 3 voice chat linked pvp pug stomping douchebags, because the matchmaker borked or couldnt find the right people. If somehow, the solo queue system manages to put me on a team against some hardcore pvpers, then so be it. Ill die. At least they wont be in a voice chat premade pair or triplet. Thats the point.
Why is this so hard to understand? A queue for people that aren't in a team? The only people i see speaking against it is the usually TD officianadoes. Most likely the same people who will be voice chatting and just want a matchmaker to increase the pool of players they can nuke with their coordinated mechanic abuse. I don't care enough about pvp to want a matchmaker, i just want to play for half an hour, or an hour at pvp because pve gets boring too fast. However the pvp in this game is not established, balanced or worthwhile enough for me to want to invest anymore time than that in it. As well as the fact i have met regiments worth of cockholsters that are 'pvpers'.
If you want team based, voice chat orientated 5 on 5, then why dont you go and write a thread for that? And we can campaign for a solo only queue. I think out of those two ideas, the one mostlikely to get any new players pvping is a solo only queue. Hate on it all you want, but pvp has got a bad rep right now. Funny you mentioned ego, when talking about pugs getting stomped. Lol. Its quite the opposite. I dont have any ego for pvp, because i never enjoy it. Which is a problem a lot of people have. All the pvp freaks though that love their premades just want to keep the premades going at any cost, and deep down thats all they really care about. You need to start winning people over somehow to actually play before you start worrying about your precious little premade groups staying together.
Ill say it one more time, so someone might take it in. Don't care what TD did with its so called 'random' matchmaking. I don't see how a player made group can make a truly random system. Its basically some dude deciding what he thinks is the most random setup. Thats not random at all. People arent grasping that. I get you love TD, but stick to organising games between groups of people that want to use TD, not thinking you have tried and tested game features. Because you haven't. Only Cryptic can claim that. There are 1000's of players play this game. Albeit not pvping much. Not just the TD specials. Its not about the balance of captains, or experience, its the fact i don't want to play with/against the same pair/triplet of douchebags that i always see stomping premades on voice chat. This 'matchmaking' system some of the pvpers on here are proposing would allow that to happen.
EDIT: I re read a part you said that your system would mean not being able to queue in a team. If thats what you meant then yeah, im game for whatever stat inclusion you want to include to balance it a bit. My main issue is having to queue solo should be a must, and not matching up teams of 2 or 3 players into the system with solo players.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Yes you are talking out the back end... as you quite clearly have NO idea what TD is.
We don't do RANDOM matches... we do arranged matches... where we BALANCE the sides ourselves. Yes we have TESTED the idea of just randomly throwing teams together and have even used random number systems to do that.
What we have found works best... is using basic DATA we have pooled through the use of Mancoms Log parsing tool which links to his leaderboard data base. Using this data he has written some basic routines which provide us a balanced option. We then form up in the teams his tool has suggested and have a match.
There is nothing RANDOM about it.
Random is what you have now in the ques... only difference is it allows premades or teamed people to que and end up on the same team... there by making it NOT random. Right
What many of us have suggested in the past...
Is cryptic take what we have learned from TD.
Keep there own log of player stats. (they don't have to do a leader board at all... just keep the data so there match maker can access the data base).
In such a system with a TD style que... no TEAMS are not allowed. (I have suggested that it could still allow people to team... to get into the same matches... but the match would still balance the teams and that would mean juggling the qued teammates if the balance said to do that).
Why would we simply want a random have at it solo que ? Frankly I know form EXPERIENCE as we have tried to tell you there isn't just 10 or 12 guys that have taken part in TD matches. The TD channel in game has over 500 active members right now. (in terms of actual active players its almost on par with Opvp). We have done one torunament so far that attracted around 100 people. You can say those 100 are the evil type of premade folks you have some issue with all you like but its not a small sample pool in STO.
What you are missing is we are not disagreeing... I want a "Solo" que...
I want them to do it proper and create a TD style Que... which is one up tech wise over the gear score junk they have been doing in there other game.
IMO and others share it... if they where to implement an auto TD style que... it would be cutting edge MMO pvp tech. Tech better then that used by other developers in games I have played. The way Mancoms math works... ANY time there is 10 people in the que... as long as there is data in Cryptics system (which unless it was someones very first match it would have)... the games WILL be high quality almost every time. Or at least they will not be the type of games that have obviously soured you.
PS... as for voice comms I'm not sure why you have some big thing about that... it would be nice to see cryptic do a proper voice chat in game though. Its part of life in PvP and it adds to the experience not detract from it.
Yes you are talking out the back end... as you quite clearly have NO idea what TD is.
We don't do RANDOM matches... we do arranged matches... where we BALANCE the sides ourselves. Yes we have TESTED the idea of just randomly throwing teams together and have even used random number systems to do that.
What we have found works best... is using basic DATA we have pooled through the use of Mancoms Log parsing tool which links to his leaderboard data base. Using this data he has written some basic routines which provide us a balanced option. We then form up in the teams his tool has suggested and have a match.
There is nothing RANDOM about it.
Random is what you have now in the ques... only difference is it allows premades or teamed people to que and end up on the same team... there by making it NOT random. Right
What many of us have suggested in the past...
Is cryptic take what we have learned from TD.
Keep there own log of player stats. (they don't have to do a leader board at all... just keep the data so there match maker can access the data base).
In such a system with a TD style que... no TEAMS are not allowed. (I have suggested that it could still allow people to team... to get into the same matches... but the match would still balance the teams and that would mean juggling the qued teammates if the balance said to do that).
Why would we simply want a random have at it solo que ? Frankly I know form EXPERIENCE as we have tried to tell you there isn't just 10 or 12 guys that have taken part in TD matches. The TD channel in game has over 500 active members right now. (in terms of actual active players its almost on par with Opvp). We have done one torunament so far that attracted around 100 people. You can say those 100 are the evil type of premade folks you have some issue with all you like but its not a small sample pool in STO.
What you are missing is we are not disagreeing... I want a "Solo" que...
I want them to do it proper and create a TD style Que... which is one up tech wise over the gear score junk they have been doing in there other game.
IMO and others share it... if they where to implement an auto TD style que... it would be cutting edge MMO pvp tech. Tech better then that used by other developers in games I have played. The way Mancoms math works... ANY time there is 10 people in the que... as long as there is data in Cryptics system (which unless it was someones very first match it would have)... the games WILL be high quality almost every time. Or at least they will not be the type of games that have obviously soured you.
PS... as for voice comms I'm not sure why you have some big thing about that... it would be nice to see cryptic do a proper voice chat in game though. Its part of life in PvP and it adds to the experience not detract from it.
Obviously i don't know every pvper, or even a lot of pvpers, and i give you the benefit of the doubt. You seem ok. Sometimes i talk out of my rear end, it is true. Maybe you have managed a completely random TD system, i don't know it just sounds hard to believe.
One of my main issues with pvp is that i dont want to have to focus my whole game builds, doffs, gear and tactics around teamplay premade pvping. I don't like it enough, and imo its not substantial enough to warrant the effort. What i found is that against people who do this, there is no fun to be had. Hence why i would prefer the option of a solo queue. This is what has 'soured' me, as you say. As well as encountering several supposed 'elite' pvpers, who were complete arseholes.
If they can make a general voice chat system, then great! I'm all for voice chat if it is easily accessible through the game. My issue with voice chat right now, is its only people who know each other or regularly play together that use it. Which means premade. If the game had a good voice chat system then it wouldn't matter, you could even only have 1 person speaking and it would work, others could just listen. That would be fine. I have nothing against voice chat, i agree it makes almost any game of any genre better. My issue with voice chat is when some use it and some don't. The imbalance it creates is huge. Not just this game but games such as MWO and BF3/4 you can also see the difference.
So it seems we do largely agree. I like the sound of your stat based sorting queue that doesn't allow teams. I agree it would be better than a pure solo queue system. However right now i would still take a simple solo queue over the TRIBBLE that is currently available any day of the week. Its literally terrible for anyone who pugs.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Obviously i don't know every pvper, or even a lot of pvpers, and i give you the benefit of the doubt. You seem ok. Sometimes i talk out of my rear end, it is true. Maybe you have managed a completely random TD system, i don't know it just sounds hard to believe.
One of my main issues with pvp is that i dont want to have to focus my whole game builds, doffs, gear and tactics around teamplay premade pvping. I don't like it enough, and imo its not substantial enough to warrant the effort. What i found is that against people who do this, there is no fun to be had. Hence why i would prefer the option of a solo queue. This is what has 'soured' me, as you say. As well as encountering several supposed 'elite' pvpers, who were complete arseholes.
If they can make a general voice chat system, then great! I'm all for voice chat if it is easily accessible through the game. My issue with voice chat right now, is its only people who know each other or regularly play together that use it. Which means premade. If the game had a good voice chat system then it wouldn't matter, you could even only have 1 person speaking and it would work, others could just listen. That would be fine. I have nothing against voice chat, i agree it makes almost any game of any genre better. My issue with voice chat is when some use it and some don't. The imbalance it creates is huge. Not just this game but games such as MWO and BF3/4 you can also see the difference.
So it seems we do largely agree. I like the sound of your stat based sorting queue that doesn't allow teams. I agree it would be better than a pure solo queue system. However right now i would still take a simple solo queue over the TRIBBLE that is currently available any day of the week. Its literally terrible for anyone who pugs.
Hey sometimes I talk out my back end as well... sort of an uglier less funny verison of Jim Carry. Sorry if it was a strong line... I'm a pvper after all block and counter its what we do. lol
Here is my thing on what you are saying. I don't think a solo que will save you from having to create a PvP build if you are planning to PvP. Its sort of a standard MMO thing. Unless a developer was going to do a really really good job of replicating in there NPCs very human like behavior... you pretty much have to have 2 builds.
Having said that with some research... it is not hard to come up with effective ways to build to take care of both in STO. (unlike most other MMOs I have played where PvE builds are miles away from a half decent PvP build.)
How having said that... Cryptic has helped you, and us in reverse out hugely. They have added instant ship swapping... and even the ability to save loadouts.
I have taken some time to setup a few different PvP builds on a couple toons. You should be able to use this system to make that more natural for yourself. With a "Pve" and a "PvP" preset on each ship. Depending what you are flying. (and if you ask here in the PvP forum you will mostly get good advice)... its not to hard with only a few minor changes to get a PvE build ready for PvP.
I know you haven't stopped in to TD yourself... and frankly at the moment I am not sure how active things really are. Many people seem to be in an annoyed playing something else cycle right now. We run an open TS... and try our best to give anyone playing a place they can use for voice comms. Of course we would all like to see a proper in game option.
I hear you on do something even if its quick... its a valid point.
Really though Mancom did the coding for his leader board tool in around a week he says. He created us the first version of his Match Balancing tool in an evening... and as we used it he tweaked it a few times over a couple weeks.
For Cryptic to do something like it really shouldn't be a big deal. A selling point for them should be there own engine as well. Once they have it working in STO... the same tech should be able to work in any game using there engine. Neverwinter right now (I know they are doing gear score right now) The stat system is a one up of that tech. By ranking how people use there gear you in fact filter that all out... you also don't end up with people that have Earned there gear but don't know how to use it. I feel sorry for people in those systems that have great gear but are just not high end players... they get matched and stomped likely more then is fun.
They have a database now that tracks everyones toon... all they need to do is at the end of a game take the Log data from each player... run a quick script that calculates DPS / HPS / Kills / Deaths / Win-loss... Mancom has went further and his math looks for markers that indicate CC and other good PvP things and awards a Style mark. That data then needs to be added to each player database entry.... they don't need to store the log data for any longer then one match at a time. They just need the script to file it into each players database info. So they need to add a total of 7 enteries in my estimation. ( # Games played / DPS avg / HPS avg /Kill avg/ Death avg / Wn-loss ratio / Avg Style ) That's it ... so it shouldn't be much on the server resource end of things... a simple match clean up script already exists it gives us the game score board.
I know I don't work there... I am just thinking as someone that dabbles a bit with programming it shouldn't be that hard to get the bones of such a system together. IN fact if they do it right it should be darn right elegant... and easy to implement in any future Cryptic game.
One of my main issues with pvp is that i dont want to have to focus my whole game builds, doffs, gear and tactics around teamplay premade pvping. I don't like it enough, and imo its not substantial enough to warrant the effort. What i found is that against people who do this, there is no fun to be had. Hence why i would prefer the option of a solo queue. This is what has 'soured' me, as you say. As well as encountering several supposed 'elite' pvpers, who were complete arseholes.
.
Good point here PVP is not accessible for casual people who aren't focusing everything on PVP.
However the solo queue would not keep people who are completely focused on PVP from queuing up solo. If there were 5 casual players who built mainly for PVE on one team I could wipe them all out on my own, the other people on my team only need to be their for diversion, and I am sure many others can do this and have done it before. The power gap between a new 50 and a old fully geared and built 50 with experience is huge. I have done and seen other experienced players that have able to wipe out less experienced premade while pugging mostly with their own damage. You can make some builds so powerful like Tac BFAW scimitar that a premade is the only way to stop it unless the other pug also has a scim.
Main problem is the powergap and figuring a fair method to give new PVPers a chance to PVP against people of similar gear and experience. PVP also needs a matchmaking lobby system this will hopefully get more premades to find and fight each other more. The solo queue would be dominated by experienced people, which may be fun but wouldn't solve your problem by itself.
This works by entering up to 10 players and starting the balancing process. The tool will then give you 5 possible pairings that it deems most balanced according to a rather simple algorithm.
Obviously it is necessary that data is available for the players and since only two dozen players or so are actively submitting data to the leaderboard, not every player in the game has been recorded yet. But it appears that for your "Fade Akira" character there is data available (if that is yours and not just someone else's character of the same name).
If you know some names and how you would rate the corresponding players, just try it. Enter a couple of them and let the tool come up with a team distribution and see whether you think that the tool's decision is sensible.
Note: The tool won't work properly if there is no data available on a player, but it won't give an error message, it will simply assume that this player has a rating of zero in every category which will skew the results.
Just thought I'd share a perspective from a casual yet daily player.
I haven't played pvp in about 2 years and thought I'd give it a try to see how my solid pve ship and equipment would fare.
First match lost 15 - 0 to a superduper awesome premade team. I thought, eh, guess I won't do this anymore. There was no chance of scoring even 1 point.
But I said what the heck one more try. This time it was an excellent even match which my team won 15 - 12 though the other team probably had the strongest 2 players. Our team also had one of the Cardassian ships which seem to be required.
I think it would be great to have a non premade option. You can still have a premade team que to pwn noob, but if you want people to play pvp obviously you want to create experiences like my second battle not my first.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Just thought I'd share a perspective from a casual yet daily player.
I haven't played pvp in about 2 years and thought I'd give it a try to see how my solid pve ship and equipment would fare.
First match lost 15 - 0 to a superduper awesome premade team. I thought, eh, guess I won't do this anymore. There was no chance of scoring even 1 point.
But I said what the heck one more try. This time it was an excellent even match which my team won 15 - 12 though the other team probably had the strongest 2 players. Our team also had one of the Cardassian ships which seem to be required.
I think it would be great to have a non premade option. You can still have a premade team que to pwn noob, but if you want people to play pvp obviously you want to create experiences like my second battle not my first.
Yep, and a functional matchmaking system will do that more often than just splitting the queues. Splitting the queues and leaving the matchmaking up to the "whatever order you queued in" system will still fail.
Just thought I'd share a perspective from a casual yet daily player.
I haven't played pvp in about 2 years and thought I'd give it a try to see how my solid pve ship and equipment would fare.
First match lost 15 - 0 to a superduper awesome premade team. I thought, eh, guess I won't do this anymore. There was no chance of scoring even 1 point.
But I said what the heck one more try. This time it was an excellent even match which my team won 15 - 12 though the other team probably had the strongest 2 players. Our team also had one of the Cardassian ships which seem to be required.
I think it would be great to have a non premade option. You can still have a premade team que to pwn noob, but if you want people to play pvp obviously you want to create experiences like my second battle not my first.
I know you're a new player, and maybe some of it was hard to keep track of, but it would be interesting to me to hear what you think was the biggest factor in losing that match 15-0.
Was it clearly a skill gap, where they were just coordinating so well that you were outplayed?
Or was it a case of being outgunned, in terms of gear, ships, DOFFs, clicky consoles, etc.?
All of the above, even for me who has pvped for almost 2 years exclusively.
How can a random assortment of pugs, often a lose collection of ineffectual cruisers, maybe with a top damage dealer and rarely with a sci that can coordinate with anyone hope to take on premades that insta cross heal and cc you to death, coordinating split second blaps with APA and subnuke. Mean while beginners are targeting spam, flying out of range from there healers in panic if they are lucky enough to have any, with no situational awareness.
Even between premades 15-0 is not uncommon, especially if there is a weak link.
That's why ranking and matchmaking is so important, and I feel that the token bits of advice to get pugs doing *teamwork* is wholly misplaced.
All of the above, even for me who has pvped for almost 2 years exclusively.
How can a random assortment of pugs, often a lose collection of ineffectual cruisers, maybe a top dealer and rarely with a sci that can coordinate with anyone hope to take on premades that insta cross heal and cc you to death, coordinating split second blaps with APA and subnuke.
Even between premises 15-0 is not uncommon, especially if there is a weak link.
That's why ranking and matchmaking is so important, and I feel that the token bits of advice to get pugs doing teamwork is wholly misdplaced.
I don't disagree with ranking and matchmaking, but I feel that better balanced powers and less console clickies would also help balance the scales.
These are items that people often think are made for casual players to buy their way across the skill gap - but in reality these things often just make coordinated teams seem invincible instead of just hard to defeat.
So honestly, I'm just curious in his personal experience as a new player on what he thought was the bigger issue.
I know you're a new player, and maybe some of it was hard to keep track of, but it would be interesting to me to hear what you think was the biggest factor in losing that match 15-0.
Was it clearly a skill gap, where they were just coordinating so well that you were outplayed?
Or was it a case of being outgunned, in terms of gear, ships, DOFFs, clicky consoles, etc.?
I think outgunned. I did best in the initial confrontation. I got one ship down to the 60's twice, while managing to survive maybe 30-45 seconds. Of course there was no way I could have killed him with that much heals.
After this, however, the deaths were say 4 or 5 shots - 2 seconds.
Whatever mechanic to make it reasonable sounds great to me. I'm not about to do a major research project to copy these builds and open 100 boxes to get the ship. But if there were fun and fair pvp I would play a couple a day and maybe eventually get into it.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Whatever mechanic to make it reasonable sounds great to me. I'm not about to do a major research project to copy these builds and open 100 boxes to get the ship. But if there were fun and fair pvp I would play a couple a day and maybe eventually get into it.
Clicky Clicky consoles are horrific balance wise.
1) STOs lack of documentation, poor Ui notification support means that without a parser you have no idea what you were just hit with. And finding this information in game without a fleet is impossible.
2) most are legacy items with no real refresh or organic source, you were there when they were cheap or your new and face an even greater disadvantage catching up as they become exponentially more expensive.
3) little opertunity cost, given alternative passive consoles beyond crit consoles are just so weak. It's bad game design whenever there's and obvious choice, (which incidentally is why I approve of the sci/eng team change...)
But the reality is that while for me, this stuff is a nuisance, what they did for the romulan race was down right offensive, fixing ships that can decloak, vape, sling jump and cloak again will solve more balance issues in the context of new players who do not even get any chance to react and understand why their ship exploded in a second without even firing a shot.
Sheldon's experience certainly isn't uncommon, even for veteran players.
It's the synergy the premade team can bring that often decides a match before it begins. Few pugs want to play the role of healer, yet healer(especially sci healer) is probably the most powerful role you can play imo. So you end up with teams of pugs stacked with tacs/engi that want to deal damage and nothing else. Against even a pug team with a single quality sci recluse healer, they will probably lose badly.
And when one sci recluse is that good, why not stack 2?! So you end up with premades running around with 2-3 healers that are just about invincible to even veteran players pugging. From the sounds of it Sheldon ran into one such as that.
My Scimitar can make extremely short work of average pugs lol, but running into a premade that has 2+ quality healers I might as well be shooting at them with a bb gun.
That isn't to say premades are the sole reason for unbalanced matches at all. Most times no premade is involved and one side just ends up with with a more synergistic team composition, and the match is a stomp anyway. That's why I support a matchmaking system, if it's not a fantasy.
Just thought I'd share a perspective from a casual yet daily player.
I haven't played pvp in about 2 years and thought I'd give it a try to see how my solid pve ship and equipment would fare.
First match lost 15 - 0 to a superduper awesome premade team. I thought, eh, guess I won't do this anymore. There was no chance of scoring even 1 point.
But I said what the heck one more try. This time it was an excellent even match which my team won 15 - 12 though the other team probably had the strongest 2 players. Our team also had one of the Cardassian ships which seem to be required.
I think it would be great to have a non premade option. You can still have a premade team que to pwn noob, but if you want people to play pvp obviously you want to create experiences like my second battle not my first.
Pvp is almost finished in this game and that's just how cryptic wants Spacebar Online to be. You were lucky that your 2nd match did not end up like the first as most of what's left is pug stomping players with nothing better to do. There is virtually no hope for new pvp players not to be smacked around silly these days. You need hundreds of millions in EC just for doffs and ships and gear - then all the dilithium for fleet gear and clickie consoles. Then you need to find out which doffs creep you power higher and which build to use. In some ways the learning curve is worse than eve online, in other ways it's so stupid cookie cutter easy it's Spacebar Online. I wish you luck if you stick it out. If you run into a guy called captainhorizan - hit him up for info - humble and helpful - and a great sport.
Good point here PVP is not accessible for casual people who aren't focusing everything on PVP.
However the solo queue would not keep people who are completely focused on PVP from queuing up solo. If there were 5 casual players who built mainly for PVE on one team I could wipe them all out on my own, the other people on my team only need to be their for diversion, and I am sure many others can do this and have done it before. The power gap between a new 50 and a old fully geared and built 50 with experience is huge. I have done and seen other experienced players that have able to wipe out less experienced premade while pugging mostly with their own damage. You can make some builds so powerful like Tac BFAW scimitar that a premade is the only way to stop it unless the other pug also has a scim.
Main problem is the powergap and figuring a fair method to give new PVPers a chance to PVP against people of similar gear and experience. PVP also needs a matchmaking lobby system this will hopefully get more premades to find and fight each other more. The solo queue would be dominated by experienced people, which may be fun but wouldn't solve your problem by itself.
This isn't exclusively an STO problem.. the power gap of PVP is true in most games, so expecting a STO only solution isn't practical. What I hate is people in my fleet love to pvp, we que as a team people see we are from same fleet and assume we are a pre made, were not...
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But it is a good example of how a PUG-only queue without some form of balanced matchmaking could end up potentially worse in some cases than what exists...
...it's a complex matter that will require a complex solution.
Given the way Cryptic is going with things though...meh, I can't think of a positive thing to say about them at the moment (whereas I'm usually arguing with both sides regarding them, trying to find that happy middle ground - where I'm attacking and defending them...I just don't see it anymore - they've lost their freaking minds)...
I think I saw that sci bug snooper before, works pretty good, must be yours as there aren't many.
Back on topic, good idea about pvp rep system or match counter so people with lots of pvp experince won't slaughter new players as much, a good alternative to mix queues. Between doing that and having a pvp lobby system to make forming and finding premades easier it can reduce pug vs premade without banning them from queues.
55% Acc vs. 70% Def: 87% To-Hit
55% Acc vs. 80% Def: 80% To-Hit
55% Acc vs. 100% Def: 69% To-Hit
55% Acc vs. 135% Def: 55.6% To-Hit
55% Acc vs. 150% Def: 51.3% To-Hit
55% Acc vs. 200% Def: 40.8% To-Hit
There's heavy diminishing returns on Defense...very heavy.
Need to pester Hawk about them fixing the Acc Overflow on abilities that have autohit components...
Based on what he said, it does not appear that it affects TS...but that it should, and it's in the pipeline to be addressed somewhere down the road..
Just saw this. Ok whatever, you think i am talking out of my backside.
You like TD and thats cool, each to their own. Im sure its amazing for people like you, who are obsessed with a pvp system that barely exists. My point about TD, which you seem to have ignored, is the fact ITS ALL THE SAME KIND OF PEOPLE. So that means it isn't random. Its half made up of the crazy pvp obsessed people that i want to avoid. Therefore whatever results you yielded from your 'random' matchmaking i don't care.
As i have said and some others already said also on this thread, we just want a queue that you can only queue for solo. You can keep your regular pvp queue, your TD and hell, even let Cryptic waste time with a matchmaker, and all the little checkboxes you want. I still dont want the chance that i could end up in a match with 2 or 3 voice chat linked pvp pug stomping douchebags, because the matchmaker borked or couldnt find the right people. If somehow, the solo queue system manages to put me on a team against some hardcore pvpers, then so be it. Ill die. At least they wont be in a voice chat premade pair or triplet. Thats the point.
Why is this so hard to understand? A queue for people that aren't in a team? The only people i see speaking against it is the usually TD officianadoes. Most likely the same people who will be voice chatting and just want a matchmaker to increase the pool of players they can nuke with their coordinated mechanic abuse. I don't care enough about pvp to want a matchmaker, i just want to play for half an hour, or an hour at pvp because pve gets boring too fast. However the pvp in this game is not established, balanced or worthwhile enough for me to want to invest anymore time than that in it. As well as the fact i have met regiments worth of cockholsters that are 'pvpers'.
If you want team based, voice chat orientated 5 on 5, then why dont you go and write a thread for that? And we can campaign for a solo only queue. I think out of those two ideas, the one mostlikely to get any new players pvping is a solo only queue. Hate on it all you want, but pvp has got a bad rep right now. Funny you mentioned ego, when talking about pugs getting stomped. Lol. Its quite the opposite. I dont have any ego for pvp, because i never enjoy it. Which is a problem a lot of people have. All the pvp freaks though that love their premades just want to keep the premades going at any cost, and deep down thats all they really care about. You need to start winning people over somehow to actually play before you start worrying about your precious little premade groups staying together.
Ill say it one more time, so someone might take it in. Don't care what TD did with its so called 'random' matchmaking. I don't see how a player made group can make a truly random system. Its basically some dude deciding what he thinks is the most random setup. Thats not random at all. People arent grasping that. I get you love TD, but stick to organising games between groups of people that want to use TD, not thinking you have tried and tested game features. Because you haven't. Only Cryptic can claim that. There are 1000's of players play this game. Albeit not pvping much. Not just the TD specials. Its not about the balance of captains, or experience, its the fact i don't want to play with/against the same pair/triplet of douchebags that i always see stomping premades on voice chat. This 'matchmaking' system some of the pvpers on here are proposing would allow that to happen.
EDIT: I re read a part you said that your system would mean not being able to queue in a team. If thats what you meant then yeah, im game for whatever stat inclusion you want to include to balance it a bit. My main issue is having to queue solo should be a must, and not matching up teams of 2 or 3 players into the system with solo players.
We don't do RANDOM matches... we do arranged matches... where we BALANCE the sides ourselves. Yes we have TESTED the idea of just randomly throwing teams together and have even used random number systems to do that.
What we have found works best... is using basic DATA we have pooled through the use of Mancoms Log parsing tool which links to his leaderboard data base. Using this data he has written some basic routines which provide us a balanced option. We then form up in the teams his tool has suggested and have a match.
There is nothing RANDOM about it.
Random is what you have now in the ques... only difference is it allows premades or teamed people to que and end up on the same team... there by making it NOT random. Right
What many of us have suggested in the past...
Is cryptic take what we have learned from TD.
Keep there own log of player stats. (they don't have to do a leader board at all... just keep the data so there match maker can access the data base).
In such a system with a TD style que... no TEAMS are not allowed. (I have suggested that it could still allow people to team... to get into the same matches... but the match would still balance the teams and that would mean juggling the qued teammates if the balance said to do that).
Why would we simply want a random have at it solo que ? Frankly I know form EXPERIENCE as we have tried to tell you there isn't just 10 or 12 guys that have taken part in TD matches. The TD channel in game has over 500 active members right now. (in terms of actual active players its almost on par with Opvp). We have done one torunament so far that attracted around 100 people. You can say those 100 are the evil type of premade folks you have some issue with all you like but its not a small sample pool in STO.
What you are missing is we are not disagreeing... I want a "Solo" que...
I want them to do it proper and create a TD style Que... which is one up tech wise over the gear score junk they have been doing in there other game.
IMO and others share it... if they where to implement an auto TD style que... it would be cutting edge MMO pvp tech. Tech better then that used by other developers in games I have played. The way Mancoms math works... ANY time there is 10 people in the que... as long as there is data in Cryptics system (which unless it was someones very first match it would have)... the games WILL be high quality almost every time. Or at least they will not be the type of games that have obviously soured you.
PS... as for voice comms I'm not sure why you have some big thing about that... it would be nice to see cryptic do a proper voice chat in game though. Its part of life in PvP and it adds to the experience not detract from it.
Obviously i don't know every pvper, or even a lot of pvpers, and i give you the benefit of the doubt. You seem ok. Sometimes i talk out of my rear end, it is true. Maybe you have managed a completely random TD system, i don't know it just sounds hard to believe.
One of my main issues with pvp is that i dont want to have to focus my whole game builds, doffs, gear and tactics around teamplay premade pvping. I don't like it enough, and imo its not substantial enough to warrant the effort. What i found is that against people who do this, there is no fun to be had. Hence why i would prefer the option of a solo queue. This is what has 'soured' me, as you say. As well as encountering several supposed 'elite' pvpers, who were complete arseholes.
If they can make a general voice chat system, then great! I'm all for voice chat if it is easily accessible through the game. My issue with voice chat right now, is its only people who know each other or regularly play together that use it. Which means premade. If the game had a good voice chat system then it wouldn't matter, you could even only have 1 person speaking and it would work, others could just listen. That would be fine. I have nothing against voice chat, i agree it makes almost any game of any genre better. My issue with voice chat is when some use it and some don't. The imbalance it creates is huge. Not just this game but games such as MWO and BF3/4 you can also see the difference.
So it seems we do largely agree. I like the sound of your stat based sorting queue that doesn't allow teams. I agree it would be better than a pure solo queue system. However right now i would still take a simple solo queue over the TRIBBLE that is currently available any day of the week. Its literally terrible for anyone who pugs.
Hey sometimes I talk out my back end as well... sort of an uglier less funny verison of Jim Carry. Sorry if it was a strong line... I'm a pvper after all block and counter its what we do. lol
Here is my thing on what you are saying. I don't think a solo que will save you from having to create a PvP build if you are planning to PvP. Its sort of a standard MMO thing. Unless a developer was going to do a really really good job of replicating in there NPCs very human like behavior... you pretty much have to have 2 builds.
Having said that with some research... it is not hard to come up with effective ways to build to take care of both in STO. (unlike most other MMOs I have played where PvE builds are miles away from a half decent PvP build.)
How having said that... Cryptic has helped you, and us in reverse out hugely. They have added instant ship swapping... and even the ability to save loadouts.
I have taken some time to setup a few different PvP builds on a couple toons. You should be able to use this system to make that more natural for yourself. With a "Pve" and a "PvP" preset on each ship. Depending what you are flying. (and if you ask here in the PvP forum you will mostly get good advice)... its not to hard with only a few minor changes to get a PvE build ready for PvP.
I know you haven't stopped in to TD yourself... and frankly at the moment I am not sure how active things really are. Many people seem to be in an annoyed playing something else cycle right now. We run an open TS... and try our best to give anyone playing a place they can use for voice comms. Of course we would all like to see a proper in game option.
I hear you on do something even if its quick... its a valid point.
Really though Mancom did the coding for his leader board tool in around a week he says. He created us the first version of his Match Balancing tool in an evening... and as we used it he tweaked it a few times over a couple weeks.
For Cryptic to do something like it really shouldn't be a big deal. A selling point for them should be there own engine as well. Once they have it working in STO... the same tech should be able to work in any game using there engine. Neverwinter right now (I know they are doing gear score right now) The stat system is a one up of that tech. By ranking how people use there gear you in fact filter that all out... you also don't end up with people that have Earned there gear but don't know how to use it. I feel sorry for people in those systems that have great gear but are just not high end players... they get matched and stomped likely more then is fun.
They have a database now that tracks everyones toon... all they need to do is at the end of a game take the Log data from each player... run a quick script that calculates DPS / HPS / Kills / Deaths / Win-loss... Mancom has went further and his math looks for markers that indicate CC and other good PvP things and awards a Style mark. That data then needs to be added to each player database entry.... they don't need to store the log data for any longer then one match at a time. They just need the script to file it into each players database info. So they need to add a total of 7 enteries in my estimation. ( # Games played / DPS avg / HPS avg /Kill avg/ Death avg / Wn-loss ratio / Avg Style ) That's it ... so it shouldn't be much on the server resource end of things... a simple match clean up script already exists it gives us the game score board.
I know I don't work there... I am just thinking as someone that dabbles a bit with programming it shouldn't be that hard to get the bones of such a system together. IN fact if they do it right it should be darn right elegant... and easy to implement in any future Cryptic game.
Good point here PVP is not accessible for casual people who aren't focusing everything on PVP.
However the solo queue would not keep people who are completely focused on PVP from queuing up solo. If there were 5 casual players who built mainly for PVE on one team I could wipe them all out on my own, the other people on my team only need to be their for diversion, and I am sure many others can do this and have done it before. The power gap between a new 50 and a old fully geared and built 50 with experience is huge. I have done and seen other experienced players that have able to wipe out less experienced premade while pugging mostly with their own damage. You can make some builds so powerful like Tac BFAW scimitar that a premade is the only way to stop it unless the other pug also has a scim.
Main problem is the powergap and figuring a fair method to give new PVPers a chance to PVP against people of similar gear and experience. PVP also needs a matchmaking lobby system this will hopefully get more premades to find and fight each other more. The solo queue would be dominated by experienced people, which may be fun but wouldn't solve your problem by itself.
This works by entering up to 10 players and starting the balancing process. The tool will then give you 5 possible pairings that it deems most balanced according to a rather simple algorithm.
Obviously it is necessary that data is available for the players and since only two dozen players or so are actively submitting data to the leaderboard, not every player in the game has been recorded yet. But it appears that for your "Fade Akira" character there is data available (if that is yours and not just someone else's character of the same name).
If you know some names and how you would rate the corresponding players, just try it. Enter a couple of them and let the tool come up with a team distribution and see whether you think that the tool's decision is sensible.
Note: The tool won't work properly if there is no data available on a player, but it won't give an error message, it will simply assume that this player has a rating of zero in every category which will skew the results.
I haven't played pvp in about 2 years and thought I'd give it a try to see how my solid pve ship and equipment would fare.
First match lost 15 - 0 to a superduper awesome premade team. I thought, eh, guess I won't do this anymore. There was no chance of scoring even 1 point.
But I said what the heck one more try. This time it was an excellent even match which my team won 15 - 12 though the other team probably had the strongest 2 players. Our team also had one of the Cardassian ships which seem to be required.
I think it would be great to have a non premade option. You can still have a premade team que to pwn noob, but if you want people to play pvp obviously you want to create experiences like my second battle not my first.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Yep, and a functional matchmaking system will do that more often than just splitting the queues. Splitting the queues and leaving the matchmaking up to the "whatever order you queued in" system will still fail.
I know you're a new player, and maybe some of it was hard to keep track of, but it would be interesting to me to hear what you think was the biggest factor in losing that match 15-0.
Was it clearly a skill gap, where they were just coordinating so well that you were outplayed?
Or was it a case of being outgunned, in terms of gear, ships, DOFFs, clicky consoles, etc.?
How can a random assortment of pugs, often a lose collection of ineffectual cruisers, maybe with a top damage dealer and rarely with a sci that can coordinate with anyone hope to take on premades that insta cross heal and cc you to death, coordinating split second blaps with APA and subnuke. Mean while beginners are targeting spam, flying out of range from there healers in panic if they are lucky enough to have any, with no situational awareness.
Even between premades 15-0 is not uncommon, especially if there is a weak link.
That's why ranking and matchmaking is so important, and I feel that the token bits of advice to get pugs doing *teamwork* is wholly misplaced.
I don't disagree with ranking and matchmaking, but I feel that better balanced powers and less console clickies would also help balance the scales.
These are items that people often think are made for casual players to buy their way across the skill gap - but in reality these things often just make coordinated teams seem invincible instead of just hard to defeat.
So honestly, I'm just curious in his personal experience as a new player on what he thought was the bigger issue.
I think outgunned. I did best in the initial confrontation. I got one ship down to the 60's twice, while managing to survive maybe 30-45 seconds. Of course there was no way I could have killed him with that much heals.
After this, however, the deaths were say 4 or 5 shots - 2 seconds.
Whatever mechanic to make it reasonable sounds great to me. I'm not about to do a major research project to copy these builds and open 100 boxes to get the ship. But if there were fun and fair pvp I would play a couple a day and maybe eventually get into it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I imagine you're not alone.
Thanks for the reply.
1) STOs lack of documentation, poor Ui notification support means that without a parser you have no idea what you were just hit with. And finding this information in game without a fleet is impossible.
2) most are legacy items with no real refresh or organic source, you were there when they were cheap or your new and face an even greater disadvantage catching up as they become exponentially more expensive.
3) little opertunity cost, given alternative passive consoles beyond crit consoles are just so weak. It's bad game design whenever there's and obvious choice, (which incidentally is why I approve of the sci/eng team change...)
But the reality is that while for me, this stuff is a nuisance, what they did for the romulan race was down right offensive, fixing ships that can decloak, vape, sling jump and cloak again will solve more balance issues in the context of new players who do not even get any chance to react and understand why their ship exploded in a second without even firing a shot.
It's the synergy the premade team can bring that often decides a match before it begins. Few pugs want to play the role of healer, yet healer(especially sci healer) is probably the most powerful role you can play imo. So you end up with teams of pugs stacked with tacs/engi that want to deal damage and nothing else. Against even a pug team with a single quality sci recluse healer, they will probably lose badly.
And when one sci recluse is that good, why not stack 2?! So you end up with premades running around with 2-3 healers that are just about invincible to even veteran players pugging. From the sounds of it Sheldon ran into one such as that.
My Scimitar can make extremely short work of average pugs lol, but running into a premade that has 2+ quality healers I might as well be shooting at them with a bb gun.
That isn't to say premades are the sole reason for unbalanced matches at all. Most times no premade is involved and one side just ends up with with a more synergistic team composition, and the match is a stomp anyway. That's why I support a matchmaking system, if it's not a fantasy.
Pvp is almost finished in this game and that's just how cryptic wants Spacebar Online to be. You were lucky that your 2nd match did not end up like the first as most of what's left is pug stomping players with nothing better to do. There is virtually no hope for new pvp players not to be smacked around silly these days. You need hundreds of millions in EC just for doffs and ships and gear - then all the dilithium for fleet gear and clickie consoles. Then you need to find out which doffs creep you power higher and which build to use. In some ways the learning curve is worse than eve online, in other ways it's so stupid cookie cutter easy it's Spacebar Online. I wish you luck if you stick it out. If you run into a guy called captainhorizan - hit him up for info - humble and helpful - and a great sport.
This isn't exclusively an STO problem.. the power gap of PVP is true in most games, so expecting a STO only solution isn't practical. What I hate is people in my fleet love to pvp, we que as a team people see we are from same fleet and assume we are a pre made, were not...